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Mike
 
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Default Live recoring client expectations

Okay. Here's the delimma. I contracted to do this live recording. I
had quoted the guy 250 bucks which is dirt cheap itself.

Live Jazz/RB ensemble. One guy playing alto and soprano sax, as well
as flute and congas. Trombone player who does a bit of percussion.
Guitar, one vocalist and drums.

So the guy calls me up and says his grant came in low and would I do
it for 150.00. Well this guy recorded a whole CD with a friend of mine
and paid the hourly rate and so on so I assume he knows what he will
get for this and I say yes.

I haul tons of equipment there to be at a sound check 3 hours before
the show and do the recording. I tell him what I will do is
essentially dial a mix for each song, in order to simply adjust levels
and make a CD. Then I will give it to him if there are some minor
adjustments to be made, then I can fix that.

Well, I give him a mix, and he calls and leaves a message. He wants
the horns adjusted on 2 tracks and says everything else is fine. I do
that and before I can give it to him and get my dough he leaves
another message saying the last four tracks need the horns adjusted.

So, I call him, and tell him I will do that and I do and then when I
call him he says, well what I think I am going to do is make notes on
each song. Well I see where this is going. I didn't have him in the
studio for the mix because the whole idea is for 150 bucks you get a
live recording captured with just leval adjustments and broad mix
touch up.

The thing is, the trombone player was losing his lip as the show went
on. I went out and moved his mic closer 3 times but by the last
several tunes in a lot of passages he is playing no louder than the
ambient bleed. So a lot of it can't be fixed with gating or expansion.
The horn player came to me and said they didn't give him enough lead
time to get his lip ready for the show.

Ever been in this situation? What do you think? Should have got the
bread up front I think. I will have to tell him that a lot of the
problems with the horn player can't be fixed but how to do so without
him feeling I am saying the performance sucked is the trick.


Mike http://www.mmeproductions.com
  #2   Report Post  
Raymond
 
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Default Live recoring client expectations

Mike wrote
Should have got the
bread up front I think. I will have to tell him that a lot of the
problems with the horn player can't be fixed but how to do so without
him feeling I am saying the performance sucked is the trick


This sounds like the right thing, I would have got payed up frount first.
  #3   Report Post  
bayareamusician
 
Posts: n/a
Default Live recoring client expectations

be professional, yet stern, and use technical
terms if necessary to explain why the
recording sounds as it does. but do not insult
or challenge the band artistically, as they
will take it in offense and think you
are incompetent. e.g., that the horn player
did not have sufficient volume, which caused
bleeding from adjacents instruments, and hence
cannot isolate the instrument in the mix. the
alleged fact that the horn player didn't have
have his lips together because the band didn't
give him ample lead time, etc etc etc has
nothing to do with you, and to even mention
that to you is fruitless, unless it's just
some small talk to kill time.

i don't think you needed to be paid upfront,
if you both had signed a written contract.
if you don't have a contract, then there's
not much you can do to collect, except to
continue with their intricate tweaks.

nowadays with intellectual property issues
and scams, i don't leave the house without
a contract. attorney friends review my
contracts for free. it's too bad there isn't
a web site with sample contracts for those
who don't know attorneys. i see many
musicians and engineers having major snafus
because they have nothing that is legally
binding, so all hell breaks loose.


  #4   Report Post  
Gary Koliger
 
Posts: n/a
Default Live recoring client expectations

You are selling yourself too short - you've gone beyond the call of duty
for $150 - tell 'em they'll have to pay for more mix sugery which won't
make the recoding appreciably better anyway - then try to get 'em into
the studio - stop devaluing yourself and your gear.

Gary

bayareamusician wrote:

be professional, yet stern, and use technical
terms if necessary to explain why the
recording sounds as it does. but do not insult
or challenge the band artistically, as they
will take it in offense and think you
are incompetent. e.g., that the horn player
did not have sufficient volume, which caused
bleeding from adjacents instruments, and hence
cannot isolate the instrument in the mix. the
alleged fact that the horn player didn't have
have his lips together because the band didn't
give him ample lead time, etc etc etc has
nothing to do with you, and to even mention
that to you is fruitless, unless it's just
some small talk to kill time.

i don't think you needed to be paid upfront,
if you both had signed a written contract.
if you don't have a contract, then there's
not much you can do to collect, except to
continue with their intricate tweaks.

nowadays with intellectual property issues
and scams, i don't leave the house without
a contract. attorney friends review my
contracts for free. it's too bad there isn't
a web site with sample contracts for those
who don't know attorneys. i see many
musicians and engineers having major snafus
because they have nothing that is legally
binding, so all hell breaks loose.


  #5   Report Post  
Jesper Buch
 
Posts: n/a
Default Live recoring client expectations

"Mike" skrev i en meddelelse
m...
Okay. Here's the delimma. I contracted to do this live recording. I
had quoted the guy 250 bucks which is dirt cheap itself.

Live Jazz/RB ensemble. One guy playing alto and soprano sax, as well
as flute and congas. Trombone player who does a bit of percussion.
Guitar, one vocalist and drums.

So the guy calls me up and says his grant came in low and would I do
it for 150.00. Well this guy recorded a whole CD with a friend of mine
and paid the hourly rate and so on so I assume he knows what he will
get for this and I say yes.

I haul tons of equipment there to be at a sound check 3 hours before
the show and do the recording. I tell him what I will do is
essentially dial a mix for each song, in order to simply adjust levels
and make a CD. Then I will give it to him if there are some minor
adjustments to be made, then I can fix that.

Well, I give him a mix, and he calls and leaves a message. He wants
the horns adjusted on 2 tracks and says everything else is fine. I do
that and before I can give it to him and get my dough he leaves
another message saying the last four tracks need the horns adjusted.

So, I call him, and tell him I will do that and I do and then when I
call him he says, well what I think I am going to do is make notes on
each song. Well I see where this is going. I didn't have him in the
studio for the mix because the whole idea is for 150 bucks you get a
live recording captured with just leval adjustments and broad mix
touch up.

The thing is, the trombone player was losing his lip as the show went
on. I went out and moved his mic closer 3 times but by the last
several tunes in a lot of passages he is playing no louder than the
ambient bleed. So a lot of it can't be fixed with gating or expansion.
The horn player came to me and said they didn't give him enough lead
time to get his lip ready for the show.

Ever been in this situation? What do you think? Should have got the
bread up front I think. I will have to tell him that a lot of the
problems with the horn player can't be fixed but how to do so without
him feeling I am saying the performance sucked is the trick.


150 can't be for both recording and mastering !!

Never insult the performers . . . as a producer you are also a doctor.
Don't insult your patient . . specially not if it's cancer !

Get it overwith and charge more next time . . . things always happens.



Mike http://www.mmeproductions.com





  #6   Report Post  
Mike Rivers
 
Posts: n/a
Default Live recoring client expectations


In article writes:

Okay. Here's the delimma. I contracted to do this live recording. I
had quoted the guy 250 bucks which is dirt cheap itself.


So the guy calls me up and says his grant came in low and would I do
it for 150.00. Well this guy recorded a whole CD with a friend of mine
and paid the hourly rate and so on so I assume he knows what he will
get for this and I say yes.


That was your first mistake. For $150, he should get a pair of mics
and a CD copy of the gig, editing costs extra.

Well, I give him a mix, and he calls and leaves a message. He wants
the horns adjusted on 2 tracks and says everything else is fine.


he leaves
another message saying the last four tracks need the horns adjusted.


he says, well what I think I am going to do is make notes on
each song. Well I see where this is going. I didn't have him in the
studio for the mix because the whole idea is for 150 bucks you get a
live recording captured with just leval adjustments and broad mix
touch up.


That's all he should get for $150. I take it that you have a
multitrack recording. Why not just quote him your hourly rate to mix
it the way he wants it, and suggest that it will be more efficient
than leaving phone messages. Make sure he understands that the $150
doesn't cover anyting but a live mix.

The horn player came to me and said they didn't give him enough lead
time to get his lip ready for the show.


This is not your problem, however perhaps some creative mixing can
work around it. Does the leader understand the horn player's problem?

Ever been in this situation? What do you think? Should have got the
bread up front I think. I will have to tell him that a lot of the
problems with the horn player can't be fixed but how to do so without
him feeling I am saying the performance sucked is the trick.


I don't think it matters if you get the money up front or not. If you
don't have the $150 yet, you shouldn't do any more work, and you
should tell him that once he gets his bill paid up, you'll be willing
to work with him at an hourly rate to try to improve the mix. You
might tactfully suggest that rather than mix the entire show, you and
he pick out the five or six best tunes and concentrate on those and
see how it goes. Maybe he'll lose interest after he pays for a few
hours of mixing time.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers - )
  #7   Report Post  
Paul Tumolo
 
Posts: n/a
Default Live recoring client expectations

You charged way too little. I would not have charged less than $500 for
this gig (I am assuming this was a multitrack recording)- and that would
have been only for the recording. Mixing is extra. For $150, I'd do a
two mic direct to CD and nothing more.
Assuming you have the gear and chops, you undersold yourself
considerably. One thing I learned is that when you charge too little no
one respects you and everyone expects outrageous amounts of work from
you. No one complains about my rates (at least not the ones that hire
me- most think I'm cheap for the quality) and I have enough remote work
that I can pick and choose my projects and turn down the ones I feel
aren't right for me and the client. And I do get the money up front, 50%
upon agreeing to do the gig and the rest before I hit '"record".

As for what to do now, follow Mike River's advice. Ask (demand) the $150
now for services already rendered. Tactfully explain what you agreed to
do and what you've already down. Tell them you'll continue, after you've
been paid the already owed $150, at your hourly rate. (and, for this
client, I think i'd ask to be paid at the end of each session, assuming
more than one session.)
-paul

  #8   Report Post  
bayareamusician
 
Posts: n/a
Default Live recoring client expectations

In article ,
says...

You charged way too little. I would not have charged less than $500 for


agreed. however, if you are in the bay area (by virtue of your
email address), then you'll notice on craigslist (
www.craigslist.org)
that many so-called engineers are providing their services for
free. it is so competitive here with every kid on the block
toting an mbox and vaio and proclaiming "engineer."

as a result, musicians think they shouldn't pay studio rates,
yet expect studio quality material and make a big fuss
if they don't get it. musicians have the edge when there are
so many "engineers" in the house, each vying for low- or no-paying
gigs.

admittedly, i got caught up in the competition and lowered my
rates for a while, then said, screw it...it is too hard to
compete with people charging $0 per hour. hence, i did two things:
1) post a phoney arrogant ad on craigslist stating that i am
a hot singer and expect the producer to PAY ME $35 per hour, and
2) on the serious side increased my rates drastically and posted an
ad, claiming to charge the highest hourly rate on craigslist. in
either case, i got no response. it doesn't matter... i get my
clients through word-of-mouth.



  #9   Report Post  
Fletcher
 
Posts: n/a
Default Live recoring client expectations

Mike wrote:


So the guy calls me up and says his grant came in low and would I do
it for 150.00. Well this guy recorded a whole CD with a friend of mine
and paid the hourly rate and so on so I assume he knows what he will
get for this and I say yes.

snip happens



The thing is, the trombone player was losing his lip as the show went
on. I went out and moved his mic closer 3 times but by the last
several tunes in a lot of passages he is playing no louder than the
ambient bleed. So a lot of it can't be fixed with gating or expansion.
The horn player came to me and said they didn't give him enough lead
time to get his lip ready for the show.

Ever been in this situation? What do you think? Should have got the
bread up front I think. I will have to tell him that a lot of the
problems with the horn player can't be fixed but how to do so without
him feeling I am saying the performance sucked is the trick.


The guess here is that if you did the gig for a buck and a half you
weren't doing it for the money... you were doing it for the experience.
Part of the experience is dealing with adversity... if I got this right,
the bone player wasn't entirely prepared for the event and you're stuck
making chicken salad from chicken ****?

Perhaps one of the ways to deal with this is to sit down with the artist
and review what you have and what might be possible in terms of providing
a final presentation. I would recommend that you tweeze what you have to
a point that pleases your sense of aesthetic... call the artist, arrange a
time to sit down with them and review the presentation. Explain the
struggles you encountered [the bone player faded by the end of the night]
and the steps you took to remedy the problems encountered.

At that point, a further explanation should be provided... that you did
this gig because you wanted to do this gig... that you didn't do it for
the chump change... in other words, don't let this turn into an
adversarial situation. Be firm in the fact that you performed this gig to
the very best of the abilities your skills and hardware would afford
you... to continue to attempt to tweeze a flawed performance [hey, no
matter what the show, there are good nights, and there are bad nights...
from your description, this doesn't sound like it was a 'good night'...
the artist will most likely understand] may be pointless.

At that point you might want to explain that you've invested "X amount" of
time into this project... which amounts to about "Y per hour" and that you
really can't afford to invest much more time in the project at the rate
discussed... that you were happy to perform the originally stated tasks
for the buck and a half... but that didn't include trying to salvage a
flawed performance.

Bottom line, if you're upfront with the artist about what you got and
where you are... the limitations, the sacrifice, etc... chances are he'll
be cool about it [and if he ain't... **** 'um]... he might appreciate that
you've broken your balls on this, he might not... if he does you'll get
more work from this gig... if he doesn't you won't.

At the end of the week... this needs to be done one way or the other or
you're going to be in a situation where he will drive you insane. At this
point in your relationship, communication is the key... without it all
that is going to come from it is animosity.

Best of luck... you're probably gonna need it.
--
Fletcher
Mercenary Audio
TEL: 508-543-0069
FAX: 508-543-9670
http://www.mercenary.com
"this is not a problem"


  #10   Report Post  
George Gleason
 
Posts: n/a
Default Live recoring client expectations

Mike , your in a no win situation
give him the recording and tell him any more"tweeks" will be at extra cost,
and that there are somethings you just have no control over

I had a situation sort like that with a commercial sound system(Resturant)
that I was called in to take the hissing out of
at first there was a small gain structure problem and I solved it, yet I
kept getting calls about the hissing
finally I scoped it and there was no hissing turns out the owner had
tinnitius or some other ear problem but was blaming everything and everyone
from his inability tio hear properly

How does one suggest that a client needs to see the hearing doctor,
tactfully?
George




  #11   Report Post  
Laurence Payne
 
Posts: n/a
Default Live recoring client expectations


So the guy calls me up and says his grant came in low and would I do
it for 150.00. Well this guy recorded a whole CD with a friend of mine
and paid the hourly rate and so on so I assume he knows what he will
get for this and I say yes.

I haul tons of equipment...


Let's stop there :-)
You did this gig because you wanted to. You charged enough to cover
expenses, and maybe have a drink. This was your choice.

I'd say to the guy - "What the F***! This was always a free gig.
GIve me the $150 for hauling the gear. You're not employing me, but
purely for my own satisfaction, I'm going to get it as right as I can,
in a reasonable amount of time. Now, what was it you think needs
doing?"

That is, if you don't want to tell him to F*** off

The thing is, the trombone player was losing his lip as the show went
on. I went out and moved his mic closer 3 times but by the last
several tunes in a lot of passages he is playing no louder than the
ambient bleed. So a lot of it can't be fixed with gating or expansion.
The horn player came to me and said they didn't give him enough lead
time to get his lip ready for the show.


Nice one! So he only practises when there's a gig coming up?

I play piano a lot for musical theatre auditions. You wouldn't
believe the number of actors, presumably actively in the job market,
who "only heard about the audition yesterday" and therefore can't
offer a properly prepared song.
  #12   Report Post  
Mike Rivers
 
Posts: n/a
Default Live recoring client expectations


In article writes:

if you are in the bay area (by virtue of your
email address), then you'll notice on craigslist (
www.craigslist.org)
that many so-called engineers are providing their services for
free.


Then the thing to do is look for clients who want to work in a studio,
not someone willing to give away time in exchange for the learning
experience or the chance to hang out with musicians. If you want to be
a charging-level professional, you need to be selective about your
clients. If you want to give away some time, find a musician or band
whose work you respect and offer up yourself. Don't wait for them to
come to you. If you present yourself as someone who can't get paid for
his time, you'll get clients who don't feel that they're ready to pay
for time yet. That's either a learn-learn or lose-lose situtation most
of the time.

it is so competitive here with every kid on the block
toting an mbox and vaio and proclaiming "engineer."


So you need to offer something that makes you different. What else do
you have to offer?

as a result, musicians think they shouldn't pay studio rates,
yet expect studio quality material and make a big fuss
if they don't get it.


I have a friend who has a studio in the Bay area and he keeps it busy
at fully professional rates. But he offers a very good sounding room,
a great microphone collection, a good piano, a few engineers each with
their own specialty, a large automated analog console, 2" analog,
ADAT, and recently, ProTools, as well as production and pre-mastering.
So it's possible to get people to pay real rates if they get a real
studio.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers - )
  #13   Report Post  
Mike
 
Posts: n/a
Default Live recoring client expectations

Laurence Payne wrote in message . ..
So the guy calls me up and says his grant came in low and would I do
it for 150.00. Well this guy recorded a whole CD with a friend of mine
and paid the hourly rate and so on so I assume he knows what he will
get for this and I say yes.

I haul tons of equipment...


Let's stop there :-)
You did this gig because you wanted to. You charged enough to cover
expenses, and maybe have a drink. This was your choice.

I'd say to the guy - "What the F***! This was always a free gig.
GIve me the $150 for hauling the gear. You're not employing me, but
purely for my own satisfaction, I'm going to get it as right as I can,
in a reasonable amount of time. Now, what was it you think needs
doing?"

That is, if you don't want to tell him to F*** off

The thing is, the trombone player was losing his lip as the show went
on. I went out and moved his mic closer 3 times but by the last
several tunes in a lot of passages he is playing no louder than the
ambient bleed. So a lot of it can't be fixed with gating or expansion.
The horn player came to me and said they didn't give him enough lead
time to get his lip ready for the show.


Nice one! So he only practises when there's a gig coming up?

I play piano a lot for musical theatre auditions. You wouldn't
believe the number of actors, presumably actively in the job market,
who "only heard about the audition yesterday" and therefore can't
offer a properly prepared song.




Thanks everyone for your ideas. I think I have it all worked out with
him. He agreed the horn player was losing it as the show went on and
some of it couldn't be improved much.

And I didn't totally do it for the money certainly but I just felt as
it was going on I was getting chiseled on a bit. Overal it sounds
pretty good. I consider myself a bottom feeder in the world of
professional recording but still of a professional level. I.E I have
been practicing it for years and didn't just run in Guitar Center and
get a firewire interface and a laptop.

I've played many a gig as a musician and filled in live sound here and
there at some pretty decent venues so that gives me a good
understanding of the live situation.

Mike http://www.mmeproductions.com
  #14   Report Post  
Mike
 
Posts: n/a
Default Live recoring client expectations

(bayareamusician) wrote in message .. .
In article ,

says...

You charged way too little. I would not have charged less than $500 for


agreed. however, if you are in the bay area (by virtue of your
email address), then you'll notice on craigslist (
www.craigslist.org)
that many so-called engineers are providing their services for
free. it is so competitive here with every kid on the block
toting an mbox and vaio and proclaiming "engineer."

as a result, musicians think they shouldn't pay studio rates,
yet expect studio quality material and make a big fuss
if they don't get it. musicians have the edge when there are
so many "engineers" in the house, each vying for low- or no-paying
gigs.

admittedly, i got caught up in the competition and lowered my
rates for a while, then said, screw it...it is too hard to
compete with people charging $0 per hour. hence, i did two things:
1) post a phoney arrogant ad on craigslist stating that i am
a hot singer and expect the producer to PAY ME $35 per hour, and
2) on the serious side increased my rates drastically and posted an
ad, claiming to charge the highest hourly rate on craigslist. in
either case, i got no response. it doesn't matter... i get my
clients through word-of-mouth.



I'd never heard of this craigs list. Looks like the best you would
find on their is an M-BOX guitar center jockey.


Mike http://www.mmeproductions.com
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