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#1
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Live recoring client expectations
Okay. Here's the delimma. I contracted to do this live recording. I
had quoted the guy 250 bucks which is dirt cheap itself. Live Jazz/RB ensemble. One guy playing alto and soprano sax, as well as flute and congas. Trombone player who does a bit of percussion. Guitar, one vocalist and drums. So the guy calls me up and says his grant came in low and would I do it for 150.00. Well this guy recorded a whole CD with a friend of mine and paid the hourly rate and so on so I assume he knows what he will get for this and I say yes. I haul tons of equipment there to be at a sound check 3 hours before the show and do the recording. I tell him what I will do is essentially dial a mix for each song, in order to simply adjust levels and make a CD. Then I will give it to him if there are some minor adjustments to be made, then I can fix that. Well, I give him a mix, and he calls and leaves a message. He wants the horns adjusted on 2 tracks and says everything else is fine. I do that and before I can give it to him and get my dough he leaves another message saying the last four tracks need the horns adjusted. So, I call him, and tell him I will do that and I do and then when I call him he says, well what I think I am going to do is make notes on each song. Well I see where this is going. I didn't have him in the studio for the mix because the whole idea is for 150 bucks you get a live recording captured with just leval adjustments and broad mix touch up. The thing is, the trombone player was losing his lip as the show went on. I went out and moved his mic closer 3 times but by the last several tunes in a lot of passages he is playing no louder than the ambient bleed. So a lot of it can't be fixed with gating or expansion. The horn player came to me and said they didn't give him enough lead time to get his lip ready for the show. Ever been in this situation? What do you think? Should have got the bread up front I think. I will have to tell him that a lot of the problems with the horn player can't be fixed but how to do so without him feeling I am saying the performance sucked is the trick. Mike http://www.mmeproductions.com |
#2
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Live recoring client expectations
Mike wrote
Should have got the bread up front I think. I will have to tell him that a lot of the problems with the horn player can't be fixed but how to do so without him feeling I am saying the performance sucked is the trick This sounds like the right thing, I would have got payed up frount first. |
#3
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Live recoring client expectations
be professional, yet stern, and use technical
terms if necessary to explain why the recording sounds as it does. but do not insult or challenge the band artistically, as they will take it in offense and think you are incompetent. e.g., that the horn player did not have sufficient volume, which caused bleeding from adjacents instruments, and hence cannot isolate the instrument in the mix. the alleged fact that the horn player didn't have have his lips together because the band didn't give him ample lead time, etc etc etc has nothing to do with you, and to even mention that to you is fruitless, unless it's just some small talk to kill time. i don't think you needed to be paid upfront, if you both had signed a written contract. if you don't have a contract, then there's not much you can do to collect, except to continue with their intricate tweaks. nowadays with intellectual property issues and scams, i don't leave the house without a contract. attorney friends review my contracts for free. it's too bad there isn't a web site with sample contracts for those who don't know attorneys. i see many musicians and engineers having major snafus because they have nothing that is legally binding, so all hell breaks loose. |
#4
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Live recoring client expectations
You are selling yourself too short - you've gone beyond the call of duty
for $150 - tell 'em they'll have to pay for more mix sugery which won't make the recoding appreciably better anyway - then try to get 'em into the studio - stop devaluing yourself and your gear. Gary bayareamusician wrote: be professional, yet stern, and use technical terms if necessary to explain why the recording sounds as it does. but do not insult or challenge the band artistically, as they will take it in offense and think you are incompetent. e.g., that the horn player did not have sufficient volume, which caused bleeding from adjacents instruments, and hence cannot isolate the instrument in the mix. the alleged fact that the horn player didn't have have his lips together because the band didn't give him ample lead time, etc etc etc has nothing to do with you, and to even mention that to you is fruitless, unless it's just some small talk to kill time. i don't think you needed to be paid upfront, if you both had signed a written contract. if you don't have a contract, then there's not much you can do to collect, except to continue with their intricate tweaks. nowadays with intellectual property issues and scams, i don't leave the house without a contract. attorney friends review my contracts for free. it's too bad there isn't a web site with sample contracts for those who don't know attorneys. i see many musicians and engineers having major snafus because they have nothing that is legally binding, so all hell breaks loose. |
#5
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Live recoring client expectations
"Mike" skrev i en meddelelse
m... Okay. Here's the delimma. I contracted to do this live recording. I had quoted the guy 250 bucks which is dirt cheap itself. Live Jazz/RB ensemble. One guy playing alto and soprano sax, as well as flute and congas. Trombone player who does a bit of percussion. Guitar, one vocalist and drums. So the guy calls me up and says his grant came in low and would I do it for 150.00. Well this guy recorded a whole CD with a friend of mine and paid the hourly rate and so on so I assume he knows what he will get for this and I say yes. I haul tons of equipment there to be at a sound check 3 hours before the show and do the recording. I tell him what I will do is essentially dial a mix for each song, in order to simply adjust levels and make a CD. Then I will give it to him if there are some minor adjustments to be made, then I can fix that. Well, I give him a mix, and he calls and leaves a message. He wants the horns adjusted on 2 tracks and says everything else is fine. I do that and before I can give it to him and get my dough he leaves another message saying the last four tracks need the horns adjusted. So, I call him, and tell him I will do that and I do and then when I call him he says, well what I think I am going to do is make notes on each song. Well I see where this is going. I didn't have him in the studio for the mix because the whole idea is for 150 bucks you get a live recording captured with just leval adjustments and broad mix touch up. The thing is, the trombone player was losing his lip as the show went on. I went out and moved his mic closer 3 times but by the last several tunes in a lot of passages he is playing no louder than the ambient bleed. So a lot of it can't be fixed with gating or expansion. The horn player came to me and said they didn't give him enough lead time to get his lip ready for the show. Ever been in this situation? What do you think? Should have got the bread up front I think. I will have to tell him that a lot of the problems with the horn player can't be fixed but how to do so without him feeling I am saying the performance sucked is the trick. 150 can't be for both recording and mastering !! Never insult the performers . . . as a producer you are also a doctor. Don't insult your patient . . specially not if it's cancer ! Get it overwith and charge more next time . . . things always happens. Mike http://www.mmeproductions.com |
#6
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Live recoring client expectations
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#7
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Live recoring client expectations
You charged way too little. I would not have charged less than $500 for
this gig (I am assuming this was a multitrack recording)- and that would have been only for the recording. Mixing is extra. For $150, I'd do a two mic direct to CD and nothing more. Assuming you have the gear and chops, you undersold yourself considerably. One thing I learned is that when you charge too little no one respects you and everyone expects outrageous amounts of work from you. No one complains about my rates (at least not the ones that hire me- most think I'm cheap for the quality) and I have enough remote work that I can pick and choose my projects and turn down the ones I feel aren't right for me and the client. And I do get the money up front, 50% upon agreeing to do the gig and the rest before I hit '"record". As for what to do now, follow Mike River's advice. Ask (demand) the $150 now for services already rendered. Tactfully explain what you agreed to do and what you've already down. Tell them you'll continue, after you've been paid the already owed $150, at your hourly rate. (and, for this client, I think i'd ask to be paid at the end of each session, assuming more than one session.) -paul |
#8
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Live recoring client expectations
In article ,
says... You charged way too little. I would not have charged less than $500 for agreed. however, if you are in the bay area (by virtue of your email address), then you'll notice on craigslist (www.craigslist.org) that many so-called engineers are providing their services for free. it is so competitive here with every kid on the block toting an mbox and vaio and proclaiming "engineer." as a result, musicians think they shouldn't pay studio rates, yet expect studio quality material and make a big fuss if they don't get it. musicians have the edge when there are so many "engineers" in the house, each vying for low- or no-paying gigs. admittedly, i got caught up in the competition and lowered my rates for a while, then said, screw it...it is too hard to compete with people charging $0 per hour. hence, i did two things: 1) post a phoney arrogant ad on craigslist stating that i am a hot singer and expect the producer to PAY ME $35 per hour, and 2) on the serious side increased my rates drastically and posted an ad, claiming to charge the highest hourly rate on craigslist. in either case, i got no response. it doesn't matter... i get my clients through word-of-mouth. |
#9
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Live recoring client expectations
Mike wrote:
So the guy calls me up and says his grant came in low and would I do it for 150.00. Well this guy recorded a whole CD with a friend of mine and paid the hourly rate and so on so I assume he knows what he will get for this and I say yes. snip happens The thing is, the trombone player was losing his lip as the show went on. I went out and moved his mic closer 3 times but by the last several tunes in a lot of passages he is playing no louder than the ambient bleed. So a lot of it can't be fixed with gating or expansion. The horn player came to me and said they didn't give him enough lead time to get his lip ready for the show. Ever been in this situation? What do you think? Should have got the bread up front I think. I will have to tell him that a lot of the problems with the horn player can't be fixed but how to do so without him feeling I am saying the performance sucked is the trick. The guess here is that if you did the gig for a buck and a half you weren't doing it for the money... you were doing it for the experience. Part of the experience is dealing with adversity... if I got this right, the bone player wasn't entirely prepared for the event and you're stuck making chicken salad from chicken ****? Perhaps one of the ways to deal with this is to sit down with the artist and review what you have and what might be possible in terms of providing a final presentation. I would recommend that you tweeze what you have to a point that pleases your sense of aesthetic... call the artist, arrange a time to sit down with them and review the presentation. Explain the struggles you encountered [the bone player faded by the end of the night] and the steps you took to remedy the problems encountered. At that point, a further explanation should be provided... that you did this gig because you wanted to do this gig... that you didn't do it for the chump change... in other words, don't let this turn into an adversarial situation. Be firm in the fact that you performed this gig to the very best of the abilities your skills and hardware would afford you... to continue to attempt to tweeze a flawed performance [hey, no matter what the show, there are good nights, and there are bad nights... from your description, this doesn't sound like it was a 'good night'... the artist will most likely understand] may be pointless. At that point you might want to explain that you've invested "X amount" of time into this project... which amounts to about "Y per hour" and that you really can't afford to invest much more time in the project at the rate discussed... that you were happy to perform the originally stated tasks for the buck and a half... but that didn't include trying to salvage a flawed performance. Bottom line, if you're upfront with the artist about what you got and where you are... the limitations, the sacrifice, etc... chances are he'll be cool about it [and if he ain't... **** 'um]... he might appreciate that you've broken your balls on this, he might not... if he does you'll get more work from this gig... if he doesn't you won't. At the end of the week... this needs to be done one way or the other or you're going to be in a situation where he will drive you insane. At this point in your relationship, communication is the key... without it all that is going to come from it is animosity. Best of luck... you're probably gonna need it. -- Fletcher Mercenary Audio TEL: 508-543-0069 FAX: 508-543-9670 http://www.mercenary.com "this is not a problem" |
#10
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Live recoring client expectations
Mike , your in a no win situation
give him the recording and tell him any more"tweeks" will be at extra cost, and that there are somethings you just have no control over I had a situation sort like that with a commercial sound system(Resturant) that I was called in to take the hissing out of at first there was a small gain structure problem and I solved it, yet I kept getting calls about the hissing finally I scoped it and there was no hissing turns out the owner had tinnitius or some other ear problem but was blaming everything and everyone from his inability tio hear properly How does one suggest that a client needs to see the hearing doctor, tactfully? George |
#11
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Live recoring client expectations
So the guy calls me up and says his grant came in low and would I do it for 150.00. Well this guy recorded a whole CD with a friend of mine and paid the hourly rate and so on so I assume he knows what he will get for this and I say yes. I haul tons of equipment... Let's stop there :-) You did this gig because you wanted to. You charged enough to cover expenses, and maybe have a drink. This was your choice. I'd say to the guy - "What the F***! This was always a free gig. GIve me the $150 for hauling the gear. You're not employing me, but purely for my own satisfaction, I'm going to get it as right as I can, in a reasonable amount of time. Now, what was it you think needs doing?" That is, if you don't want to tell him to F*** off The thing is, the trombone player was losing his lip as the show went on. I went out and moved his mic closer 3 times but by the last several tunes in a lot of passages he is playing no louder than the ambient bleed. So a lot of it can't be fixed with gating or expansion. The horn player came to me and said they didn't give him enough lead time to get his lip ready for the show. Nice one! So he only practises when there's a gig coming up? I play piano a lot for musical theatre auditions. You wouldn't believe the number of actors, presumably actively in the job market, who "only heard about the audition yesterday" and therefore can't offer a properly prepared song. |
#13
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Live recoring client expectations
Laurence Payne wrote in message . ..
So the guy calls me up and says his grant came in low and would I do it for 150.00. Well this guy recorded a whole CD with a friend of mine and paid the hourly rate and so on so I assume he knows what he will get for this and I say yes. I haul tons of equipment... Let's stop there :-) You did this gig because you wanted to. You charged enough to cover expenses, and maybe have a drink. This was your choice. I'd say to the guy - "What the F***! This was always a free gig. GIve me the $150 for hauling the gear. You're not employing me, but purely for my own satisfaction, I'm going to get it as right as I can, in a reasonable amount of time. Now, what was it you think needs doing?" That is, if you don't want to tell him to F*** off The thing is, the trombone player was losing his lip as the show went on. I went out and moved his mic closer 3 times but by the last several tunes in a lot of passages he is playing no louder than the ambient bleed. So a lot of it can't be fixed with gating or expansion. The horn player came to me and said they didn't give him enough lead time to get his lip ready for the show. Nice one! So he only practises when there's a gig coming up? I play piano a lot for musical theatre auditions. You wouldn't believe the number of actors, presumably actively in the job market, who "only heard about the audition yesterday" and therefore can't offer a properly prepared song. Thanks everyone for your ideas. I think I have it all worked out with him. He agreed the horn player was losing it as the show went on and some of it couldn't be improved much. And I didn't totally do it for the money certainly but I just felt as it was going on I was getting chiseled on a bit. Overal it sounds pretty good. I consider myself a bottom feeder in the world of professional recording but still of a professional level. I.E I have been practicing it for years and didn't just run in Guitar Center and get a firewire interface and a laptop. I've played many a gig as a musician and filled in live sound here and there at some pretty decent venues so that gives me a good understanding of the live situation. Mike http://www.mmeproductions.com |
#14
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Live recoring client expectations
(bayareamusician) wrote in message .. .
In article , says... You charged way too little. I would not have charged less than $500 for agreed. however, if you are in the bay area (by virtue of your email address), then you'll notice on craigslist (www.craigslist.org) that many so-called engineers are providing their services for free. it is so competitive here with every kid on the block toting an mbox and vaio and proclaiming "engineer." as a result, musicians think they shouldn't pay studio rates, yet expect studio quality material and make a big fuss if they don't get it. musicians have the edge when there are so many "engineers" in the house, each vying for low- or no-paying gigs. admittedly, i got caught up in the competition and lowered my rates for a while, then said, screw it...it is too hard to compete with people charging $0 per hour. hence, i did two things: 1) post a phoney arrogant ad on craigslist stating that i am a hot singer and expect the producer to PAY ME $35 per hour, and 2) on the serious side increased my rates drastically and posted an ad, claiming to charge the highest hourly rate on craigslist. in either case, i got no response. it doesn't matter... i get my clients through word-of-mouth. I'd never heard of this craigs list. Looks like the best you would find on their is an M-BOX guitar center jockey. Mike http://www.mmeproductions.com |
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