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#81
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No, you're not crazy but you won't achieve a great deal for $200. You could spend a large proportion ( if not all ) of that alone on decent crossover networks. Which you also have to design ! And there's more to it than the cookbook says btw. It would be a learning experience though. The economics of volume manufacturing mean that you'll be able to buy a better set of speakers than you can make for the same money. Graham |
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#82
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Mac Cool wrote: Car speakers are screwed into metal doors with plastic covers and they can sound great. They can also sound truly awful. This is a result you have to consider. Designing good speakers of today's qualities requires an extensive knowledge of the physics involved plus a certain amount of 'black art'. There's a lot more to it than just a box with a speaker screwed in. Graham |
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#83
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Mac Cool wrote: Car speakers are screwed into metal doors with plastic covers and they can sound great. They can also sound truly awful. This is a result you have to consider. Designing good speakers of today's qualities requires an extensive knowledge of the physics involved plus a certain amount of 'black art'. There's a lot more to it than just a box with a speaker screwed in. Graham |
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#84
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Mac Cool wrote: Paul Stamler: Vance Dickason's "Loudspeaker Design Cookbook" strikes an excellent balance between beginner-friendliness and technical sophistication, rather more so IMHO than Weems's. The criticisms in the Amazon review are, I think, overstated. Oh, and for a very reasonable fee the folks at Madisound will design a crossover for whatever drivers you want. That's two votes for Dickason's book. I'll see if I can find it at Barnes & Noble. Does that come out of the $200 ? Ker-ching ! Graham |
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#85
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Mac Cool wrote: Paul Stamler: Vance Dickason's "Loudspeaker Design Cookbook" strikes an excellent balance between beginner-friendliness and technical sophistication, rather more so IMHO than Weems's. The criticisms in the Amazon review are, I think, overstated. Oh, and for a very reasonable fee the folks at Madisound will design a crossover for whatever drivers you want. That's two votes for Dickason's book. I'll see if I can find it at Barnes & Noble. Does that come out of the $200 ? Ker-ching ! Graham |
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#86
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Mac Cool wrote:
I don't misunderstand at all... it is a flawed analogy. Anyone with the tools and will can build a quite servicable boat. It may not be a yacht or racing boat, it won't be perfect, but it will provide pleasure and be a source of pride for the builder. What I do understand is that some people know what they know, but do not know how they know it. Okay, enough with the malarkey. You want to build speakers, so get to it. People here with plenty of experience have suggested references and potential pitfalls. Enjoy. Since you've not built either a boat or speakers it'll be a learning experience. -- ha |
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#87
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Mac Cool wrote:
I don't misunderstand at all... it is a flawed analogy. Anyone with the tools and will can build a quite servicable boat. It may not be a yacht or racing boat, it won't be perfect, but it will provide pleasure and be a source of pride for the builder. What I do understand is that some people know what they know, but do not know how they know it. Okay, enough with the malarkey. You want to build speakers, so get to it. People here with plenty of experience have suggested references and potential pitfalls. Enjoy. Since you've not built either a boat or speakers it'll be a learning experience. -- ha |
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#88
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Pooh Bear wrote:
Mac Cool wrote: Car speakers are screwed into metal doors with plastic covers and they can sound great. They can also sound truly awful. This is a result you have to consider. Designing good speakers of today's qualities requires an extensive knowledge of the physics involved plus a certain amount of 'black art'. There's a lot more to it than just a box with a speaker screwed in. But he could go to a junkyard, buy a matched pair of car doors, install speakers and dig the great sound. Then he could get a trunk lid and a hood and weld 'em together and have a boat, too! Resources R Us! -- ha |
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#89
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Pooh Bear wrote:
Mac Cool wrote: Car speakers are screwed into metal doors with plastic covers and they can sound great. They can also sound truly awful. This is a result you have to consider. Designing good speakers of today's qualities requires an extensive knowledge of the physics involved plus a certain amount of 'black art'. There's a lot more to it than just a box with a speaker screwed in. But he could go to a junkyard, buy a matched pair of car doors, install speakers and dig the great sound. Then he could get a trunk lid and a hood and weld 'em together and have a boat, too! Resources R Us! -- ha |
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#90
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My opinion is that, once you've built your own speakers, you'll continually be
trying to upgrade them. In other words, don't expect to remain long-satisfied with your first pair. Two other points... Good drivers and crossover components are not cheap. You can easily spend $200 on them before you get to... ....the wood for the cabinet. Don't skimp. You'll probably want MDF or better. http://www.design-technology.org/mdf.htm |
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#91
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My opinion is that, once you've built your own speakers, you'll continually be
trying to upgrade them. In other words, don't expect to remain long-satisfied with your first pair. Two other points... Good drivers and crossover components are not cheap. You can easily spend $200 on them before you get to... ....the wood for the cabinet. Don't skimp. You'll probably want MDF or better. http://www.design-technology.org/mdf.htm |
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#92
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"TonyP" wrote in message u... "Paul Stamler" wrote in message ... If you have decent data on the drivers, which some manufacturers supply and some don't, you can build a pair of good speakers without most of those resources. You'll probably need to tweak the L-pads in the crossovers to get the balance right. It's hard, but doable. And you would still have no idea about cabinet reflections, resonances, etc. unless you have measurement facilities. Quite right. But you can, with some good planning, build good speakers without them. Not fantastic speakers, but good speakers. With measurement facilities, you can take a big leap upward (pun intended), but without them, if you take care to follos some good design practices, you can still do quite well. What's much harder is to build multiple copies of the speaker, reliably and repeatably. *That* takes all the resources you can muster and then some. Your method relies on the manufacturers data, so you have already ignored driver tolerances. It's not that hard to build boxes to similar tolerances. Exactly. (Well, almost exactly -- I didn't ignore driver tolerances. That's the crossover tweaking.) In fact, it's a lot easier to make boxes to close tolerances than drivers. You can build boxes in a home shop to a tolerance of, say, 1/16". If the shortest dimension of a speaker box is 6", that's about 1%, less of course with the longer dimensions. Typical drivers have a 5% or 10% spec tolerance. That's why it's so much easier to produce *one* good speaker than many. Tweak the crossover L-pad(s) a little, and Bob's your uncle (especially with a closed-box system, which is somewhat less sensitive to differences in drivers than a vented box). Build a whole heap of them and you either have to throw out a lot of drivers or do a lot of tweaking. Or accept speakers that vary all over the place. Peace, Paul |
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#93
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"TonyP" wrote in message u... "Paul Stamler" wrote in message ... If you have decent data on the drivers, which some manufacturers supply and some don't, you can build a pair of good speakers without most of those resources. You'll probably need to tweak the L-pads in the crossovers to get the balance right. It's hard, but doable. And you would still have no idea about cabinet reflections, resonances, etc. unless you have measurement facilities. Quite right. But you can, with some good planning, build good speakers without them. Not fantastic speakers, but good speakers. With measurement facilities, you can take a big leap upward (pun intended), but without them, if you take care to follos some good design practices, you can still do quite well. What's much harder is to build multiple copies of the speaker, reliably and repeatably. *That* takes all the resources you can muster and then some. Your method relies on the manufacturers data, so you have already ignored driver tolerances. It's not that hard to build boxes to similar tolerances. Exactly. (Well, almost exactly -- I didn't ignore driver tolerances. That's the crossover tweaking.) In fact, it's a lot easier to make boxes to close tolerances than drivers. You can build boxes in a home shop to a tolerance of, say, 1/16". If the shortest dimension of a speaker box is 6", that's about 1%, less of course with the longer dimensions. Typical drivers have a 5% or 10% spec tolerance. That's why it's so much easier to produce *one* good speaker than many. Tweak the crossover L-pad(s) a little, and Bob's your uncle (especially with a closed-box system, which is somewhat less sensitive to differences in drivers than a vented box). Build a whole heap of them and you either have to throw out a lot of drivers or do a lot of tweaking. Or accept speakers that vary all over the place. Peace, Paul |
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#94
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"Pooh Bear" wrote in message
... No, you're not crazy but you won't achieve a great deal for $200. You could spend a large proportion ( if not all ) of that alone on decent crossover networks. Which you also have to design ! And there's more to it than the cookbook says btw. It would be a learning experience though. The economics of volume manufacturing mean that you'll be able to buy a better set of speakers than you can make for the same money. For $200? Naah. Here's a breakdown (all prices from Madisound): Vifa 6.5" woofers: 2 @ $41/ea = $82 Vifa 1" dome tweeters: 2 @ $26/ea = $52 Inductors for crossover: $24 Capacitors for crossover: $30 Resistors for crossover: $2 Connector cups: $4 That's $194, and I'm assuming polypropylene capacitors and a 24dB/octave crossover. Add a couple of bucks for Zobel networks on the woofer, and $200 for the parts is about right. Then of course there's the wood. But for $200 worth of parts you can build a 6" two-way that beats the absolute crap out of anything you can buy at that price, *and* learn a lot, *and*, if you're inclined that way, have a lot of fun. It won't beat a $2000 pair of monitors, of course not. But if you look at what's out there for $200 these days, you won't find much decent. Peace, Paul |
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#95
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"Pooh Bear" wrote in message
... No, you're not crazy but you won't achieve a great deal for $200. You could spend a large proportion ( if not all ) of that alone on decent crossover networks. Which you also have to design ! And there's more to it than the cookbook says btw. It would be a learning experience though. The economics of volume manufacturing mean that you'll be able to buy a better set of speakers than you can make for the same money. For $200? Naah. Here's a breakdown (all prices from Madisound): Vifa 6.5" woofers: 2 @ $41/ea = $82 Vifa 1" dome tweeters: 2 @ $26/ea = $52 Inductors for crossover: $24 Capacitors for crossover: $30 Resistors for crossover: $2 Connector cups: $4 That's $194, and I'm assuming polypropylene capacitors and a 24dB/octave crossover. Add a couple of bucks for Zobel networks on the woofer, and $200 for the parts is about right. Then of course there's the wood. But for $200 worth of parts you can build a 6" two-way that beats the absolute crap out of anything you can buy at that price, *and* learn a lot, *and*, if you're inclined that way, have a lot of fun. It won't beat a $2000 pair of monitors, of course not. But if you look at what's out there for $200 these days, you won't find much decent. Peace, Paul |
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#96
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On Thu, 11 Nov 2004 17:57:32 GMT, Mac Cool wrote:
I would like to build a set of floor speakers, maybe a tweeter, midrange and one or two woofers but I'm beginning to wonder if it would be easier to build my own space shuttle. I've read one book by David Weems, Designing, Building, and Testing Your Own Speaker System, it's the only book on the subject at my local library. Being a total neophyte, the book was of marginal help, so I went looking on Amazon. The speaker building books I found on Amazon suffered the same criticisms as Weem's book so I'm not sure where to start. I'll be honest, I have a small budget ($200+wood), but I do have all the necessary tools, I just want to build some nice speakers. I will settle for plans but all the plans I found were for sub boxes. I should mention that the speakers will be used in a smallish room, 11x16 feet and that I have congenital hearing damage (about 40% right ear, 20% left ear) and I have difficulty distinguishing midrange sounds; so spending lots of money would be a waste anyway. I actually have extremely good hearing at high frequencies. The speakers will be built to match an existing entertainment center (height will be ~40-50", width 8-10", depth can be whatever). Can anyone point me in the right direction? If you're hoping to get good speakers cheap and easy, forget it. If you're looking to start a hobby of do-it-yourself speaker construction, great! Get one of the books on speaker design and have a go. If a priority is to fit prettily into an existing setup, you're making the job infinitely harder. Speakers need to be the size they need to be. And to be placed where they sound best in a room. If cosmetic considerations limit your choices of either, you aren't likely to get good sound whatever you buy or build. CubaseFAQ www.laurencepayne.co.uk/CubaseFAQ.htm "Possibly the world's least impressive web site": George Perfect |
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#97
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On Thu, 11 Nov 2004 17:57:32 GMT, Mac Cool wrote:
I would like to build a set of floor speakers, maybe a tweeter, midrange and one or two woofers but I'm beginning to wonder if it would be easier to build my own space shuttle. I've read one book by David Weems, Designing, Building, and Testing Your Own Speaker System, it's the only book on the subject at my local library. Being a total neophyte, the book was of marginal help, so I went looking on Amazon. The speaker building books I found on Amazon suffered the same criticisms as Weem's book so I'm not sure where to start. I'll be honest, I have a small budget ($200+wood), but I do have all the necessary tools, I just want to build some nice speakers. I will settle for plans but all the plans I found were for sub boxes. I should mention that the speakers will be used in a smallish room, 11x16 feet and that I have congenital hearing damage (about 40% right ear, 20% left ear) and I have difficulty distinguishing midrange sounds; so spending lots of money would be a waste anyway. I actually have extremely good hearing at high frequencies. The speakers will be built to match an existing entertainment center (height will be ~40-50", width 8-10", depth can be whatever). Can anyone point me in the right direction? If you're hoping to get good speakers cheap and easy, forget it. If you're looking to start a hobby of do-it-yourself speaker construction, great! Get one of the books on speaker design and have a go. If a priority is to fit prettily into an existing setup, you're making the job infinitely harder. Speakers need to be the size they need to be. And to be placed where they sound best in a room. If cosmetic considerations limit your choices of either, you aren't likely to get good sound whatever you buy or build. CubaseFAQ www.laurencepayne.co.uk/CubaseFAQ.htm "Possibly the world's least impressive web site": George Perfect |
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#98
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People begin with analogies when they have poor communication skills. The
only thing to 'get' is that this person either lacks the communication skills to express their thoughts or doesn't know anything to begin with, doesn't matter to me. Sometimes, but it also depends on the listen skills and openmindedness of the listener. I have one aquaintance who only understands body work analogies when trying to make points on value of audio services compared to other valued services. John A. Chiara SOS Recording Studio Live Sound Inc. Albany, NY www.sosrecording.net 518-449-1637 |
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#99
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People begin with analogies when they have poor communication skills. The
only thing to 'get' is that this person either lacks the communication skills to express their thoughts or doesn't know anything to begin with, doesn't matter to me. Sometimes, but it also depends on the listen skills and openmindedness of the listener. I have one aquaintance who only understands body work analogies when trying to make points on value of audio services compared to other valued services. John A. Chiara SOS Recording Studio Live Sound Inc. Albany, NY www.sosrecording.net 518-449-1637 |
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#101
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#103
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On 13 Nov 2004 19:08:59 -0500, (Mike Rivers)
wrote: In article writes: Okay, enough with the malarkey. You want to build speakers, so get to it. People here with plenty of experience have suggested references and potential pitfalls. Enjoy. Since you've not built either a boat or speakers it'll be a learning experience. Unless you're building something identical to what you built before, it will be a learning experience. And even if you are trying to duplicate something (even if you've already built one or two before), you'll learn something about manufacturing. And if the speakers don't sound good, hopefully they'll float and he can play with them in the bathtub. In that case I suggest acoustic suspension rather than bass reflex. ----- http://mindspring.com/~benbradley |
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#104
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#105
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#106
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"Mike Rivers" wrote in message news:znr1100380490k@trad... : : In article writes: : : Okay, enough with the malarkey. You want to build speakers, so get to : it. People here with plenty of experience have suggested references and : potential pitfalls. Enjoy. : : Since you've not built either a boat or speakers it'll be a learning : experience. : : And if the speakers don't sound good, hopefully they'll float and he : can play with them in the bathtub. : Mike: I already said this but the bathtub adds a nice touch. Phil |
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#107
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"Mike Rivers" wrote in message news:znr1100380490k@trad... : : In article writes: : : Okay, enough with the malarkey. You want to build speakers, so get to : it. People here with plenty of experience have suggested references and : potential pitfalls. Enjoy. : : Since you've not built either a boat or speakers it'll be a learning : experience. : : And if the speakers don't sound good, hopefully they'll float and he : can play with them in the bathtub. : Mike: I already said this but the bathtub adds a nice touch. Phil |
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#108
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x-no archive: yes
Mac Cool wrote: People begin with analogies when they have poor communication skills. Hold up your end of the stick before you start thinking to poke with it. -- ha |
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#109
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x-no archive: yes
Mac Cool wrote: People begin with analogies when they have poor communication skills. Hold up your end of the stick before you start thinking to poke with it. -- ha |
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#110
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Ben Bradley wrote:
... { other stuff snipped } Resources R Us! Speaking of DIY speakers, I first read this as: Resonances R Us! = a small leak along the starboard chine... -- ha |
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#111
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Ben Bradley wrote:
... { other stuff snipped } Resources R Us! Speaking of DIY speakers, I first read this as: Resonances R Us! = a small leak along the starboard chine... -- ha |
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#112
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Nothing to laugh about... ':-)
It started as a joke and now I am an owner of the biggest top-class hifi italian factories .... "hank alrich" ha scritto nel messaggio . .. Ben Bradley wrote: ... { other stuff snipped } Resources R Us! Speaking of DIY speakers, I first read this as: Resonances R Us! = a small leak along the starboard chine... -- ha |
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#113
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Nothing to laugh about... ':-)
It started as a joke and now I am an owner of the biggest top-class hifi italian factories .... "hank alrich" ha scritto nel messaggio . .. Ben Bradley wrote: ... { other stuff snipped } Resources R Us! Speaking of DIY speakers, I first read this as: Resonances R Us! = a small leak along the starboard chine... -- ha |
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#114
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"Paul Stamler" wrote in message ...
But if you look at what's out there for $200 these days, you won't find much decent. I dunno, I kinda like the PSB Alpha. You can find the B model for $200 / pair. (re-lurk) |
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#115
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"Paul Stamler" wrote in message ...
But if you look at what's out there for $200 these days, you won't find much decent. I dunno, I kinda like the PSB Alpha. You can find the B model for $200 / pair. (re-lurk) |
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#116
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Everybody should build their own speakers - it's part of growing up. I'm about o embark on a 1KW sub, so I guess I haven't finished growing up yet.... geoff |
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#117
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Everybody should build their own speakers - it's part of growing up. I'm about o embark on a 1KW sub, so I guess I haven't finished growing up yet.... geoff |
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