[Harry Lavo]

Thought this was interesting. It is from the front page of Pro Sound News
and covers the luanch of the "Mix+" DSD unit, a joint effort of Genex,
Oxford Digital, and Smart AV. It is a recorder, mixer, equalizer, and 48
channel mic unit all in one, which can be controlled remotely via an
ethernet network if desired by a Smart AV controller.

"The Mix+ Engine, based on an Oxford Digital card and commanded from a host
PC running our custom-developed software, operates in DSD 64 1-bit format
mode at a 2.8224 MHz sampling rate" according to Genex, and was described by
John Richards of Oxford as "...the final part in the end-to-end native DSD
production chain".

The organization Live Nation Studios, which owns or has booking rights to
over a hundred venues world-wide, plans to install a half dozen units in the
US for initial evaluation, and eventually plans to install them in all the
venues. The envision issuing post-concert mixes in many different media.
Andy Scarthof Live Nation Studios said " DSD was selected as our mixing and
recording format ....because everything else is derived from DSD, which
makes it the most furture-proof format".

The article goes on to discuss DSD's "checkered history" as a release medium
for Super Audio CD, noting that "DSD has found favor as an acquisition
format for high-end classical music, jazz, and opera....its progress has
been somewhat hampered, however, by a lack of production tools...".
Commenting on this, Geoff Calver of SADIE stated "(t)here is a well-defined
if limited consumer market for high-resolution audio, especially with the
added dimension of surround sound".

But with an all-in-one recording/mixing package in place, this can't but
help others consider SACD. To me, at least, it gives hope for continued
vitality in the SACD segment (now up additional 300 titles since
Thanksgiving).

[braxus]

Its nice they have home units to be able to record DSD on your own computer
with add on units, but the problem still exists of how to get that onto a
disc later for archiving and playing on SACD players. In this respect DVD-A
still has the advantage.

[[email protected]]

Yes, the Minnetonka Discwelder software allows you to
author & burn your own DVD-A discs. Discwelder
Bronze does so at a modest cost. Alas, there's nothing
comparable available for SACD.

[Harry Lavo]

wrote in message
...
Yes, the Minnetonka Discwelder software allows you to
author & burn your own DVD-A discs. Discwelder
Bronze does so at a modest cost. Alas, there's nothing
comparable available for SACD.

Well, things are moving nonetheless. Korg has just announced two portable
recorders, one a hard disk recorder, that record in pure DSD, the smallest
flash-card unit at SACD data rates and the larger HD model at 2X SACD data
rates. The machines come with MAC/PC software that can convert these into
any type of PCM wav or compressed file....up to and including 192/24 and
including AIFF lossless compression.

Korg is giving a big push with a white paper outline the benefits of DSD
recording and archiving, both in terms of non-degredation and in term os
superior transient response. White paper at:
http://www.korg.com/mr/Future_Proof_..._Explained.pdf .

So now we have both Korg and Tascam with affordable recorders and
software....more will surely follow. The growing reaction among audio pros
is positive. More business will mean more SACD mastering facilities and
lower prices....etc. etc. It may take awhile but this is a positive
"happening".

[Steven Sullivan]

Harry Lavo wrote:
wrote in message
...
Yes, the Minnetonka Discwelder software allows you to
author & burn your own DVD-A discs. Discwelder
Bronze does so at a modest cost. Alas, there's nothing
comparable available for SACD.

Well, things are moving nonetheless. Korg has just announced two portable
recorders, one a hard disk recorder, that record in pure DSD, the smallest
flash-card unit at SACD data rates and the larger HD model at 2X SACD data
rates. The machines come with MAC/PC software that can convert these into
any type of PCM wav or compressed file....up to and including 192/24 and
including AIFF lossless compression.

Korg is giving a big push with a white paper outline the benefits of DSD
recording and archiving, both in terms of non-degredation and in term os
superior transient response. White paper at:
http://www.korg.com/mr/Future_Proof_..._Explained.pdf .

The transient response 'issue' and its near relative, the 'square wave
reproduction' issue, is bogus, in terms of actual audibility (you don't
hear square waves; your ears are filters too).

This has been gone over again and again.

So, any *listening test* results in that Korg white paper?

/me looks

nah, didn't think so.

It's time to ask again, is this trip really necessary?

SACD fans might want to read what Bruno Putzys (formerly a chief engineer at Philips; btw
believes 16/44 isn't enough) has said about the format

"Gardo:
BP says that "SACD is here to stay." Do we think that's a step forward or a step back?

BP:
Sonically it's a step forward. In terms of practical usefulness it's more like putting the
world's population on a spaceship to colonise a new planet without first checking if there's
water and oxygen on it, and if the conditions on earth were really so bad we needed to leave
it."

http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/sh...9&postcount=59

http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/sh...9&postcount=64

and more recently
http://recforums.prosoundweb.com/ind...DSD#msg_205878

His views on non-oversampling DACS (another tweako favorite) are
also interesting:

http://recforums.prosoundweb.com/ind.../t/14651/4549/

___
-S
"As human beings, we understand the world through simile, analogy,
metaphor, narrative and, sometimes, claymation." - B. Mason

[Harry Lavo]

"Steven Sullivan" wrote in message
...
Harry Lavo wrote:
wrote in message
...
Yes, the Minnetonka Discwelder software allows you to
author & burn your own DVD-A discs. Discwelder
Bronze does so at a modest cost. Alas, there's nothing
comparable available for SACD.

Well, things are moving nonetheless. Korg has just announced two
portable
recorders, one a hard disk recorder, that record in pure DSD, the
smallest
flash-card unit at SACD data rates and the larger HD model at 2X SACD
data
rates. The machines come with MAC/PC software that can convert these
into
any type of PCM wav or compressed file....up to and including 192/24 and
including AIFF lossless compression.

Korg is giving a big push with a white paper outline the benefits of DSD
recording and archiving, both in terms of non-degredation and in term os
superior transient response. White paper at:
http://www.korg.com/mr/Future_Proof_..._Explained.pdf .

The transient response 'issue' and its near relative, the 'square wave
reproduction' issue, is bogus, in terms of actual audibility (you don't
hear square waves; your ears are filters too).

This has been gone over again and again.


Except that on CD, those transient distortions exist all the way down to
2000hz...right in the upper mid-range.

So, any *listening test* results in that Korg white paper?

/me looks

nah, didn't think so.

Doesn't mean it's not audible. To me, it clearly is....a freedom from
high-frequency congestion that PCM just can't match.


It's time to ask again, is this trip really necessary?

Necessary? No. Desireable? You betcha.

I mean we could all still be listening to Silvertone console radios and have
music. Everything that has happened to push audio quality forward is
"unnecessary". But not undesireable.


SACD fans might want to read what Bruno Putzys (formerly a chief engineer
at Philips; btw
believes 16/44 isn't enough) has said about the format

"Gardo:
BP says that "SACD is here to stay." Do we think that's a step forward or
a step back?

BP:
Sonically it's a step forward. In terms of practical usefulness it's more
like putting the
world's population on a spaceship to colonise a new planet without first
checking if there's
water and oxygen on it, and if the conditions on earth were really so bad
we needed to leave
it."

That is more a comment on Sony's business judgement than it is about sound
quality. Your point?

http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/sh...9&postcount=59

http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/sh...9&postcount=64

and more recently
http://recforums.prosoundweb.com/ind...DSD#msg_205878

His views on non-oversampling DACS (another tweako favorite) are
also interesting:

http://recforums.prosoundweb.com/ind.../t/14651/4549/

I don't spend much time on Steve Hoffman, nor wish to so I skipped. Sorry.

[Arny Krueger]

"Harry Lavo" wrote in message
...
"Steven Sullivan" wrote in message
...
Harry Lavo wrote:
wrote in message
...
Yes, the Minnetonka Discwelder software allows you to
author & burn your own DVD-A discs. Discwelder
Bronze does so at a modest cost. Alas, there's nothing
comparable available for SACD.

Well, things are moving nonetheless. Korg has just announced two
portable
recorders, one a hard disk recorder, that record in pure DSD, the
smallest
flash-card unit at SACD data rates and the larger HD model at 2X SACD
data
rates. The machines come with MAC/PC software that can convert these
into
any type of PCM wav or compressed file....up to and including 192/24 and
including AIFF lossless compression.

Korg is giving a big push with a white paper outline the benefits of DSD
recording and archiving, both in terms of non-degredation and in term os
superior transient response. White paper at:
http://www.korg.com/mr/Future_Proof_..._Explained.pdf .

The transient response 'issue' and its near relative, the 'square wave
reproduction' issue, is bogus, in terms of actual audibility (you don't
hear square waves; your ears are filters too).

This has been gone over again and again.

Except that on CD, those transient distortions exist all the way down to
2000hz...right in the upper mid-range.

By what criteria?

So, any *listening test* results in that Korg white paper?

/me looks

nah, didn't think so.

Doesn't mean it's not audible.

It's absence speaks volumes.

In this day and age, it is relatively easy to illustrate very many things
online. For example, if 96 KHz bandpass (i.e., 192 KHz sampling) has
noticable sonic benefits, it doesn't take a lot for someone to post two .wav
files that illustrate its benefits. There are now 10,000's of computers out
there with audio intefaces that operate efficiently at 192 KHz. That vast
majority of these computers can have their audio output routed through high
quality monitoring systems because that is how they are used from day to
day.

To me, it clearly is....a freedom from
high-frequency congestion that PCM just can't match.

If that's true, then it should be very easy to illustrate with a
downloadable file or two. For example Harry I believe that you've said that
you may have a computer with an audio interface with sufficient quality. Is
that true?

[Harry Lavo]

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Harry Lavo" wrote in message
...
"Steven Sullivan" wrote in message
...
Harry Lavo wrote:
wrote in message
...
Yes, the Minnetonka Discwelder software allows you to
author & burn your own DVD-A discs. Discwelder
Bronze does so at a modest cost. Alas, there's nothing
comparable available for SACD.

Well, things are moving nonetheless. Korg has just announced two
portable
recorders, one a hard disk recorder, that record in pure DSD, the
smallest
flash-card unit at SACD data rates and the larger HD model at 2X SACD
data
rates. The machines come with MAC/PC software that can convert these
into
any type of PCM wav or compressed file....up to and including 192/24
and
including AIFF lossless compression.

Korg is giving a big push with a white paper outline the benefits of
DSD
recording and archiving, both in terms of non-degredation and in term
os
superior transient response. White paper at:
http://www.korg.com/mr/Future_Proof_..._Explained.pdf .

The transient response 'issue' and its near relative, the 'square wave
reproduction' issue, is bogus, in terms of actual audibility (you don't
hear square waves; your ears are filters too).

This has been gone over again and again.

Except that on CD, those transient distortions exist all the way down to
2000hz...right in the upper mid-range.

By what criteria?

However you want to measure it. Ability to pass a clean transient, as in
the leading edge of a square wave. Or the ability to reproduce an
asymetrical impulse ripple as in nature, rather than a symetrical one. This
far down in the frequency reange, such distortions are in the ear/brains
most sensitive areas. Which is probably why the boost to 96khz removes most
of it (moves the distorted wave forms up to 4khz and higher, where masking
begins to take effect.).


So, any *listening test* results in that Korg white paper?

/me looks

nah, didn't think so.

Doesn't mean it's not audible.

It's absence speaks volumes.

It's absence merely reflects that Korg published a white paper to expain DSD
and in their opinion, its benefits. Its purpose is marketing. They are not
producing a scientific paper for a journal that has to "prove" anything.


In this day and age, it is relatively easy to illustrate very many things
online. For example, if 96 KHz bandpass (i.e., 192 KHz sampling) has
noticable sonic benefits, it doesn't take a lot for someone to post two
.wav
files that illustrate its benefits. There are now 10,000's of computers
out
there with audio intefaces that operate efficiently at 192 KHz. That vast
majority of these computers can have their audio output routed through
high
quality monitoring systems because that is how they are used from day to
day.

I won't go into this any more than to say to you once again that logic
dictates that you cannot evaluate *anything* versus analog or versus DSD by
transferring them into PCM. The comparison must be between native signals
through their own reproducing equipment in the analog domain or it is simply
not valid.

To me, it clearly is....a freedom from
high-frequency congestion that PCM just can't match.

If that's true, then it should be very easy to illustrate with a
downloadable file or two. For example Harry I believe that you've said
that
you may have a computer with an audio interface with sufficient quality.
Is
that true?

I have the equipment....but I see no reason to waste time on a useless
experiment which I know apriori is logically invalid.