| Home |
| Search |
| Today's Posts |
|
#1
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
|
|||
|
|||
System down: Audiophile urgency
Hello all,
my beloved and economic audiophile system has experienced another breakdown. This is the 2nd one in 4 months. Who is the culprit? The EMU 0404 USB. Do I blame it? No. Not at all. Why? I've been enjoying music so much now with the 0404 USB that there have been periods that I would listen for several hours on end, at or near rated amplifier power, no doubt stressing all components of my system. I was never able to do this before, and I love the way the way the 0404 USB improved the system. My system: Itunes based music server feeding an Apple Airport Express. The Airport Express optically feeds the EMU 0404 USB a 44/16 signal. The 0404USB then feeds its line level output to a Yamaha AX-596 amplifier rated at 100 watts/channel with a healthy abilitty to drive 4 ohms. Speakers? Cambridge Soundworks Tower IIs. Power rating? I'm not sure. Cambridge Soundworks has been very careful to keep the speaker power handling spec, but from obscure data picked up here and there on the web, I gather that they are rated in the 100 to 250 watt/channel range. Anyhow, I have much respect for the late Henry Kloss, founder of Cambridge Soundworks because I can see that he strived to produce very good, audiophile type speakers at an economical cost. I've been an avid fan for quite some time, starting off wiht his ensemble speakers. Weaknesses of the Tower II? Something tells me that when Mr. Kloss built the Tower II speakers, to keep his costs low, he chose a dome tweeter which does have a "hotspot." There are frequencies in which it tends to respond to a little to strongly. A slight annoyance, but not enough to take away the enjoyment of the music. Also, the midrange is not quite flat. There are probably undulations in frequency response here and there. Despite its weaknesses, though, these speakers do not fail to convey the life of the music. Still, for a pair of speakers that relay the beauty of music, the ability to reproduce a frequency range from 30 Hz to 20 Khz in a respectable manner, all for the cost of about $500.00, I am totally in their camp. Mr. Kloss kept his eye on the true prize: presenting music in a natural, realistic manner. Even with the foibles metiontioned previously, these tower IIs can really sing. There would be times I have my amp pumping at rated power and the music just takes me. With the recent addition of the EMU 0404 USB, the music would take me for hours on end. I would just keep going. Songs that come to mind a "Rememberances" from the Schindler's List Soundtrack "Arise, Clay", from the Gods and Monsters Soundtrack "Die Another Day" - Pop star Madonna's theme to the James Bond Movie "Shawshanck Redemption - End title, So was Red" Shawshank redemption movie soundtrack Oh, and by the way, my Yamaha feeds the tower IIs in a bi-wire setup. A single point of contact on the amp goes to 2 separate connections on the speaker. One pair of wires for the midrange/tweeter and the other pair for the dual woofers. Another thing: my amp's tone controls are always set to bypass; the audio signal goes straight from the source to the amp, thru the volume control, onto the speakers. That's it. Problem: I cooked my Xovers. This is the 2nd time this has happened in a 5 month period. My woofers work fine for both melt downs but the mids and tweeter are SOL. To verify, I dis-connected the tweeter and tested it individualy to find that it was ok, so I concluded that the problem was the xovers. Anyhow, this is the 2nd time around, so I know  For this 2nd go round, just 1 of my speakers cooked the xovers. The other one is fine. But who knows for how long the other one will last given the history. So now I'm at the point that I have to upgrade the speakers. Here's what I'm looking for: Audiophile quality speakers with these specifications: 3 dimensional soundstage, or least speakers with some depth. Able to produce down to 30 Hz, to reach "down below," so to speak. I look at 40 Hz as the breaking point. 40 Hz and higher is the fake bass, whereas anything below is bass you can feel, rock your foundations. These tower IIs introduced me to 30 Hz bass and I never want to go back Economical price tag, in the $1000 to $2000 price range. I've had my eye on the B&W range of speakers but would appreaciate if anyone could point me to other options. Thanks in advance. I am truly hurting, here. How would you feel if 1 of your speakers lost its xover, 5 months after being replaced? Please recommend replacement speakers that will hopefully fill the criteria I mentioned above. Thanks CD |
|
#2
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
|
|||
|
|||
|
System down: Audiophile urgency
On Sun, 13 Apr 2008 07:00:19 -0700, Codifus wrote
(in article ): Hello all, my beloved and economic audiophile system has experienced another breakdown. This is the 2nd one in 4 months. Who is the culprit? The EMU 0404 USB. Do I blame it? No. Not at all. Why? I've been enjoying music so much now with the 0404 USB that there have been periods that I would listen for several hours on end, at or near rated amplifier power, no doubt stressing all components of my system. I was never able to do this before, and I love the way the way the 0404 USB improved the system. My system: Itunes based music server feeding an Apple Airport Express. The Airport Express optically feeds the EMU 0404 USB a 44/16 signal. The 0404USB then feeds its line level output to a Yamaha AX-596 amplifier rated at 100 watts/channel with a healthy abilitty to drive 4 ohms. Speakers? Cambridge Soundworks Tower IIs. Power rating? I'm not sure. Cambridge Soundworks has been very careful to keep the speaker power handling spec, but from obscure data picked up here and there on the web, I gather that they are rated in the 100 to 250 watt/channel range. Anyhow, I have much respect for the late Henry Kloss, founder of Cambridge Soundworks because I can see that he strived to produce very good, audiophile type speakers at an economical cost. I've been an avid fan for quite some time, starting off wiht his ensemble speakers. Weaknesses of the Tower II? Something tells me that when Mr. Kloss built the Tower II speakers, to keep his costs low, he chose a dome tweeter which does have a "hotspot." There are frequencies in which it tends to respond to a little to strongly. A slight annoyance, but not enough to take away the enjoyment of the music. Also, the midrange is not quite flat. There are probably undulations in frequency response here and there. Despite its weaknesses, though, these speakers do not fail to convey the life of the music. Still, for a pair of speakers that relay the beauty of music, the ability to reproduce a frequency range from 30 Hz to 20 Khz in a respectable manner, all for the cost of about $500.00, I am totally in their camp. Mr. Kloss kept his eye on the true prize: presenting music in a natural, realistic manner. Even with the foibles metiontioned previously, these tower IIs can really sing. There would be times I have my amp pumping at rated power and the music just takes me. With the recent addition of the EMU 0404 USB, the music would take me for hours on end. I would just keep going. Songs that come to mind a "Rememberances" from the Schindler's List Soundtrack "Arise, Clay", from the Gods and Monsters Soundtrack "Die Another Day" - Pop star Madonna's theme to the James Bond Movie "Shawshanck Redemption - End title, So was Red" Shawshank redemption movie soundtrack Oh, and by the way, my Yamaha feeds the tower IIs in a bi-wire setup. A single point of contact on the amp goes to 2 separate connections on the speaker. One pair of wires for the midrange/tweeter and the other pair for the dual woofers. Another thing: my amp's tone controls are always set to bypass; the audio signal goes straight from the source to the amp, thru the volume control, onto the speakers. That's it. Problem: I cooked my Xovers. This is the 2nd time this has happened in a 5 month period. My woofers work fine for both melt downs but the mids and tweeter are SOL. To verify, I dis-connected the tweeter and tested it individualy to find that it was ok, so I concluded that the problem was the xovers. Anyhow, this is the 2nd time around, so I know For this 2nd go round, just 1 of my speakers cooked the xovers. The other one is fine. But who knows for how long the other one will last given the history. So now I'm at the point that I have to upgrade the speakers. Here's what I'm looking for: Audiophile quality speakers with these specifications: 3 dimensional soundstage, or least speakers with some depth. Able to produce down to 30 Hz, to reach "down below," so to speak. I look at 40 Hz as the breaking point. 40 Hz and higher is the fake bass, whereas anything below is bass you can feel, rock your foundations. These tower IIs introduced me to 30 Hz bass and I never want to go back Economical price tag, in the $1000 to $2000 price range. I've had my eye on the B&W range of speakers but would appreaciate if anyone could point me to other options. Thanks in advance. I am truly hurting, here. How would you feel if 1 of your speakers lost its xover, 5 months after being replaced? Please recommend replacement speakers that will hopefully fill the criteria I mentioned above. Thanks CD I can't give you any recommendations with regard to specific speakers, but I do have a suggestion: Whether you get your current speakers fixed again or buy new ones either put a fuse in-line with the speakers or get a bigger amplifier, or better yet, do both! Yes, you heard me right, a BIGGER amplifier. You are likely clipping your Yamaha and clipping amps will fry speakers a lot quicker than will too-much power. As long as the amp isn't clipping, your speakers will tell you in no uncertain terms that you are overdriving them long before any damage occurs (the cones will rattle and the voice coils will bottom-out), but clipping amps exceed the duty cycles of voice coils and crossover inductors and they get hot with no chance to cool down between waveform peaks (a clipping amp is turned on-HARD for all the time it's clipping essentially dumping lots of current into the speakers non-stop. This is a gross simplification but essentially, when these components get their duty cycles constantly exceeded, they burn-up. A bigger amp will alleviate this problem. I can't imagine a 100 W/channel amplifier damaging any modern, decent speaker. Especially the crossover - unless its clipping and clipping a lot! |
|
#3
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
|
|||
|
|||
|
System down: Audiophile urgency
"Sonnova" wrote in message
I can't give you any recommendations with regard to specific speakers, but I do have a suggestion: Whether you get your current speakers fixed again or buy new ones either put a fuse in-line with the speakers or get a bigger amplifier, or better yet, do both! The fuse is a good idea. The bigger amp??? Yes, you heard me right, a BIGGER amplifier. You are likely clipping your Yamaha and clipping amps will fry speakers a lot quicker than will too-much power. Well, that's a testiable hypothesis, albeit a controversial one. The down side is that the Yamaha AX-596 is already speced at 100-145 wpc, which is actually quite a bit of power. http://www.yamaha.co.jp/english/prod.../hf/ax596.html The Yamaha AX-596 does have preamp outs and power amp inputs on the back panel, normally linked together. So, a separate power amp can be added without also having to get a new preamp. In order to have appreciably more power, anywhere from 200 (+3 dB) to 400 (+6 dB) wpc would required. To get twice as loud subjectively without clipping, would require 1000 wpc. There are few consumer power amps with this kind of power for a reasonable price. The pro audio world has some attractive options, but as a rule they have cooling fans which requires that you either risk disabling the fans or put the amps where the fan noise will not disturb your listening. If you want a lot of clean power for not much money, check out the Behringer EP-2500, which will deliver about 500 wpc into 6 ohms for less than $400. If you clip out this power amp frequently, you will no doubt destroy your speakers. I have a number of friends who have these in very high end audiophile systems, and they are very clean and very powerful, despite the low price. To give you an idea of what kind of power these amps can crank out, I've seen them make 12 gauge stranded speaker wires literally dance to the music (writhe and move rhythmically several inches) in the external magnetic field of large subwoofers running as 2 ohm loads. As long as the amp isn't clipping, your speakers will tell you in no uncertain terms that you are overdriving them long before any damage occurs (the cones will rattle and the voice coils will bottom-out), Not necessarily true. A well-designed speaker will be impossible to bottom out. Instead, the magnetic motors for the speakers will run out of force before the cone or voice coil hits something solid. This is especially true of tweeters, because they don't need to stroke very far at all to produce lots of output. but clipping amps exceed the duty cycles of voice coils and crossover inductors and they get hot with no chance to cool down between waveform peaks (a clipping amp is turned on-HARD for all the time it's clipping essentially dumping lots of current into the speakers non-stop. This begs the question, which crossover parts can fail, and what happens when they fail. I've seen some speaker crossovers that failed this way in the hands of inexperienced DJs, and at frat house and dorm parties. This is a common path to failure of consumer speakers, because consumer speakers as a rule are not intended to be run very loud, very long. It takes a lot of power to fry a crossover coil. Usually, the forms melt or vibration causes enamel to be scraped away and then there may be arcing and burning. I've seen crossover caps with inadequate voltage ratings explode. I've seen power resistors in crossovers that were cracked in half. Overstressed speaker drivers can literally catch on fire, but its more likely that the voice coils will slowly cook, the voice coil might buble and hang up on the magnetic pole pieces, and eventually insulation scrapes off and shorts out the voice coil. Or the lead wires fracture, or the rubbing causes an open, and the driver opens up. This is a gross simplification but essentially, when these components get their duty cycles constantly exceeded, they burn-up. A bigger amp will alleviate this problem. I can't imagine a 100 W/channel amplifier damaging any modern, decent speaker. I've seen it happen, especially to midranges and tweeters. Another failure involves drivers with magnetic damping fluid. The synthetic oil part of the goo gets evaporated, and its all downhill after that. Especially the crossover - unless its clipping and clipping a lot! The most common source of loudspeaker failure is as you seem to be suggesting, simple excessive power causing things to heat up and fry. Often all a more powerful amp accomplishes is to speed the process because it takes a lot of power to have an amplifier that sounds significantly louder than 100 wpc. Looking forward, I see a need for speakers that can handle a lot of power for a long time and keep ticking. |
|
#4
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
|
|||
|
|||
|
System down: Audiophile urgency
On Apr 13, 10:12 pm, Sonnova wrote:
On Sun, 13 Apr 2008 07:00:19 -0700, Codifus wrote (in article ): Hello all, my beloved and economic audiophile system has experienced another breakdown. This is the 2nd one in 4 months. Who is the culprit? The EMU 0404 USB. Do I blame it? No. Not at all. Why? I've been enjoying music so much now with the 0404 USB that there have been periods that I would listen for several hours on end, at or near rated amplifier power, no doubt stressing all components of my system. I was never able to do this before, and I love the way the way the 0404 USB improved the system. My system: Itunes based music server feeding an Apple Airport Express. The Airport Express optically feeds the EMU 0404 USB a 44/16 signal. The 0404USB then feeds its line level output to a Yamaha AX-596 amplifier rated at 100 watts/channel with a healthy abilitty to drive 4 ohms. Speakers? Cambridge Soundworks Tower IIs. Power rating? I'm not sure. Cambridge Soundworks has been very careful to keep the speaker power handling spec, but from obscure data picked up here and there on the web, I gather that they are rated in the 100 to 250 watt/channel range. Anyhow, I have much respect for the late Henry Kloss, founder of Cambridge Soundworks because I can see that he strived to produce very good, audiophile type speakers at an economical cost. I've been an avid fan for quite some time, starting off wiht his ensemble speakers. Weaknesses of the Tower II? Something tells me that when Mr. Kloss built the Tower II speakers, to keep his costs low, he chose a dome tweeter which does have a "hotspot." There are frequencies in which it tends to respond to a little to strongly. A slight annoyance, but not enough to take away the enjoyment of the music. Also, the midrange is not quite flat. There are probably undulations in frequency response here and there. Despite its weaknesses, though, these speakers do not fail to convey the life of the music. Still, for a pair of speakers that relay the beauty of music, the ability to reproduce a frequency range from 30 Hz to 20 Khz in a respectable manner, all for the cost of about $500.00, I am totally in their camp. Mr. Kloss kept his eye on the true prize: presenting music in a natural, realistic manner. Even with the foibles metiontioned previously, these tower IIs can really sing. There would be times I have my amp pumping at rated power and the music just takes me. With the recent addition of the EMU 0404 USB, the music would take me for hours on end. I would just keep going. Songs that come to mind a "Rememberances" from the Schindler's List Soundtrack "Arise, Clay", from the Gods and Monsters Soundtrack "Die Another Day" - Pop star Madonna's theme to the James Bond Movie "Shawshanck Redemption - End title, So was Red" Shawshank redemption movie soundtrack Oh, and by the way, my Yamaha feeds the tower IIs in a bi-wire setup. A single point of contact on the amp goes to 2 separate connections on the speaker. One pair of wires for the midrange/tweeter and the other pair for the dual woofers. Another thing: my amp's tone controls are always set to bypass; the audio signal goes straight from the source to the amp, thru the volume control, onto the speakers. That's it. Problem: I cooked my Xovers. This is the 2nd time this has happened in a 5 month period. My woofers work fine for both melt downs but the mids and tweeter are SOL. To verify, I dis-connected the tweeter and tested it individualy to find that it was ok, so I concluded that the problem was the xovers. Anyhow, this is the 2nd time around, so I know For this 2nd go round, just 1 of my speakers cooked the xovers. The other one is fine. But who knows for how long the other one will last given the history. So now I'm at the point that I have to upgrade the speakers. Here's what I'm looking for: Audiophile quality speakers with these specifications: 3 dimensional soundstage, or least speakers with some depth. Able to produce down to 30 Hz, to reach "down below," so to speak. I look at 40 Hz as the breaking point. 40 Hz and higher is the fake bass, whereas anything below is bass you can feel, rock your foundations. These tower IIs introduced me to 30 Hz bass and I never want to go back Economical price tag, in the $1000 to $2000 price range. I've had my eye on the B&W range of speakers but would appreaciate if anyone could point me to other options. Thanks in advance. I am truly hurting, here. How would you feel if 1 of your speakers lost its xover, 5 months after being replaced? Please recommend replacement speakers that will hopefully fill the criteria I mentioned above. Thanks CD I can't give you any recommendations with regard to specific speakers, but I do have a suggestion: Whether you get your current speakers fixed again or buy new ones either put a fuse in-line with the speakers or get a bigger amplifier, or better yet, do both! Yes, you heard me right, a BIGGER amplifier. You are likely clipping your Yamaha and clipping amps will fry speakers a lot quicker than will too-much power. As long as the amp isn't clipping, your speakers will tell you in no uncertain terms that you are overdriving them long before any damage occurs (the cones will rattle and the voice coils will bottom-out), but clipping amps exceed the duty cycles of voice coils and crossover inductors and they get hot with no chance to cool down between waveform peaks (a clipping amp is turned on-HARD for all the time it's clipping essentially dumping lots of current into the speakers non-stop. This is a gross simplification but essentially, when these components get their duty cycles constantly exceeded, they burn-up. A bigger amp will alleviate this problem. I can't imagine a 100 W/channel amplifier damaging any modern, decent speaker. Especially the crossover - unless its clipping and clipping a lot! That's an interesting point that you bring up. At first I scratched my head wondering if I'm really letting the amplifier clip. I googled up clipping and came away with the impression that alot of clipping is not quite obvious. NAD had an amplifier in the 1980s that had and LED clipping light, which further suggests that when the amp was clipping it need to make itself known, and not by ear. So I gather you are totally on point about my clipping my speakers to death You may have just saved me a lot of money. Rather than get new speakers, I'll fix my Tower IIs again under warranty and try a beefier amp. Should I get, like 200 watts/channel? How much is too much? Any recommnedations on amps? I prefer integrated amps, stereo only. I haven't made the jump to home theater and don't plan on it anytime soon. I would have loved to own a NAD but have heard too many horror stories about their un-reliabilty. There's also this bad boy from Denon which peaked my interest; http://www.needledoctor.com/Denon-PM...ated-Amplifier It's only rated at 80 w/channel but has very high current capability. Any other suggestions out there? Thanks |
|
#5
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
|
|||
|
|||
|
System down: Audiophile urgency
On Mon, 14 Apr 2008 18:55:33 -0700, Arny Krueger wrote
(in article ): "Sonnova" wrote in message I can't give you any recommendations with regard to specific speakers, but I do have a suggestion: Whether you get your current speakers fixed again or buy new ones either put a fuse in-line with the speakers or get a bigger amplifier, or better yet, do both! The fuse is a good idea. The bigger amp??? Yes, you heard me right, a BIGGER amplifier. You are likely clipping your Yamaha and clipping amps will fry speakers a lot quicker than will too-much power. Well, that's a testiable hypothesis, albeit a controversial one. The down side is that the Yamaha AX-596 is already speced at 100-145 wpc, which is actually quite a bit of power. http://www.yamaha.co.jp/english/prod.../hf/ax596.html The Yamaha AX-596 does have preamp outs and power amp inputs on the back panel, normally linked together. So, a separate power amp can be added without also having to get a new preamp. In order to have appreciably more power, anywhere from 200 (+3 dB) to 400 (+6 dB) wpc would required. To get twice as loud subjectively without clipping, would require 1000 wpc. There are few consumer power amps with this kind of power for a reasonable price. The pro audio world has some attractive options, but as a rule they have cooling fans which requires that you either risk disabling the fans or put the amps where the fan noise will not disturb your listening. If you want a lot of clean power for not much money, check out the Behringer EP-2500, which will deliver about 500 wpc into 6 ohms for less than $400. If you clip out this power amp frequently, you will no doubt destroy your speakers. I have a number of friends who have these in very high end audiophile systems, and they are very clean and very powerful, despite the low price. To give you an idea of what kind of power these amps can crank out, I've seen them make 12 gauge stranded speaker wires literally dance to the music (writhe and move rhythmically several inches) in the external magnetic field of large subwoofers running as 2 ohm loads. The Behringer amps are all excellent. I'll agree with that. As long as the amp isn't clipping, your speakers will tell you in no uncertain terms that you are overdriving them long before any damage occurs (the cones will rattle and the voice coils will bottom-out), Not necessarily true. A well-designed speaker will be impossible to bottom out. Instead, the magnetic motors for the speakers will run out of force before the cone or voice coil hits something solid. This is especially true of tweeters, because they don't need to stroke very far at all to produce lots of output. Agreed, but these Cambridge speakers are fairly inexpensive. but clipping amps exceed the duty cycles of voice coils and crossover inductors and they get hot with no chance to cool down between waveform peaks (a clipping amp is turned on-HARD for all the time it's clipping essentially dumping lots of current into the speakers non-stop. This begs the question, which crossover parts can fail, and what happens when they fail. I've seen inductors get so hot that the varnish on the wire burns off shorting turns. What this will do, at the very least, is to make the lowpass not work. I've seen some speaker crossovers that failed this way in the hands of inexperienced DJs, and at frat house and dorm parties. This is a common path to failure of consumer speakers, because consumer speakers as a rule are not intended to be run very loud, very long. Yep. It takes a lot of power to fry a crossover coil. Usually, the forms melt or vibration causes enamel to be scraped away and then there may be arcing and burning. I've seen crossover caps with inadequate voltage ratings explode. I've seen power resistors in crossovers that were cracked in half. Yep. Overstressed speaker drivers can literally catch on fire, but its more likely that the voice coils will slowly cook, the voice coil might buble and hang up on the magnetic pole pieces, and eventually insulation scrapes off and shorts out the voice coil. Or the lead wires fracture, or the rubbing causes an open, and the driver opens up. True. All of these are known failure modes. This is a gross simplification but essentially, when these components get their duty cycles constantly exceeded, they burn-up. A bigger amp will alleviate this problem. I can't imagine a 100 W/channel amplifier damaging any modern, decent speaker. I've seen it happen, especially to midranges and tweeters. Another failure involves drivers with magnetic damping fluid. The synthetic oil part of the goo gets evaporated, and its all downhill after that. Especially the crossover - unless its clipping and clipping a lot! The most common source of loudspeaker failure is as you seem to be suggesting, simple excessive power causing things to heat up and fry. Often all a more powerful amp accomplishes is to speed the process because it takes a lot of power to have an amplifier that sounds significantly louder than 100 wpc. Looking forward, I see a need for speakers that can handle a lot of power for a long time and keep ticking. That's ultimately the best solution. Whether its a small amp clipping or a large one over driving the speakers, the end results can be the same. My point is that this poster might be listening to music so loudly that the amp is in clipping much of the time. More power would allow him to achieve the same ear-bleeding levels without the clipping - assuming, of course, that the speakers are designed to withstand that kind of constant level. |
|
#6
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
|
|||
|
|||
|
System down: Audiophile urgency
On Mon, 14 Apr 2008 18:56:14 -0700, codifus wrote
(in article ): On Apr 13, 10:12 pm, Sonnova wrote: On Sun, 13 Apr 2008 07:00:19 -0700, Codifus wrote (in article ): Hello all, my beloved and economic audiophile system has experienced another breakdown. This is the 2nd one in 4 months. Who is the culprit? The EMU 0404 USB. Do I blame it? No. Not at all. Why? I've been enjoying music so much now with the 0404 USB that there have been periods that I would listen for several hours on end, at or near rated amplifier power, no doubt stressing all components of my system. I was never able to do this before, and I love the way the way the 0404 USB improved the system. My system: Itunes based music server feeding an Apple Airport Express. The Airport Express optically feeds the EMU 0404 USB a 44/16 signal. The 0404USB then feeds its line level output to a Yamaha AX-596 amplifier rated at 100 watts/channel with a healthy abilitty to drive 4 ohms. Speakers? Cambridge Soundworks Tower IIs. Power rating? I'm not sure. Cambridge Soundworks has been very careful to keep the speaker power handling spec, but from obscure data picked up here and there on the web, I gather that they are rated in the 100 to 250 watt/channel range. Anyhow, I have much respect for the late Henry Kloss, founder of Cambridge Soundworks because I can see that he strived to produce very good, audiophile type speakers at an economical cost. I've been an avid fan for quite some time, starting off wiht his ensemble speakers. Weaknesses of the Tower II? Something tells me that when Mr. Kloss built the Tower II speakers, to keep his costs low, he chose a dome tweeter which does have a "hotspot." There are frequencies in which it tends to respond to a little to strongly. A slight annoyance, but not enough to take away the enjoyment of the music. Also, the midrange is not quite flat. There are probably undulations in frequency response here and there. Despite its weaknesses, though, these speakers do not fail to convey the life of the music. Still, for a pair of speakers that relay the beauty of music, the ability to reproduce a frequency range from 30 Hz to 20 Khz in a respectable manner, all for the cost of about $500.00, I am totally in their camp. Mr. Kloss kept his eye on the true prize: presenting music in a natural, realistic manner. Even with the foibles metiontioned previously, these tower IIs can really sing. There would be times I have my amp pumping at rated power and the music just takes me. With the recent addition of the EMU 0404 USB, the music would take me for hours on end. I would just keep going. Songs that come to mind a "Rememberances" from the Schindler's List Soundtrack "Arise, Clay", from the Gods and Monsters Soundtrack "Die Another Day" - Pop star Madonna's theme to the James Bond Movie "Shawshanck Redemption - End title, So was Red" Shawshank redemption movie soundtrack Oh, and by the way, my Yamaha feeds the tower IIs in a bi-wire setup. A single point of contact on the amp goes to 2 separate connections on the speaker. One pair of wires for the midrange/tweeter and the other pair for the dual woofers. Another thing: my amp's tone controls are always set to bypass; the audio signal goes straight from the source to the amp, thru the volume control, onto the speakers. That's it. Problem: I cooked my Xovers. This is the 2nd time this has happened in a 5 month period. My woofers work fine for both melt downs but the mids and tweeter are SOL. To verify, I dis-connected the tweeter and tested it individualy to find that it was ok, so I concluded that the problem was the xovers. Anyhow, this is the 2nd time around, so I know For this 2nd go round, just 1 of my speakers cooked the xovers. The other one is fine. But who knows for how long the other one will last given the history. So now I'm at the point that I have to upgrade the speakers. Here's what I'm looking for: Audiophile quality speakers with these specifications: 3 dimensional soundstage, or least speakers with some depth. Able to produce down to 30 Hz, to reach "down below," so to speak. I look at 40 Hz as the breaking point. 40 Hz and higher is the fake bass, whereas anything below is bass you can feel, rock your foundations. These tower IIs introduced me to 30 Hz bass and I never want to go back Economical price tag, in the $1000 to $2000 price range. I've had my eye on the B&W range of speakers but would appreaciate if anyone could point me to other options. Thanks in advance. I am truly hurting, here. How would you feel if 1 of your speakers lost its xover, 5 months after being replaced? Please recommend replacement speakers that will hopefully fill the criteria I mentioned above. Thanks CD I can't give you any recommendations with regard to specific speakers, but I do have a suggestion: Whether you get your current speakers fixed again or buy new ones either put a fuse in-line with the speakers or get a bigger amplifier, or better yet, do both! Yes, you heard me right, a BIGGER amplifier. You are likely clipping your Yamaha and clipping amps will fry speakers a lot quicker than will too-much power. As long as the amp isn't clipping, your speakers will tell you in no uncertain terms that you are overdriving them long before any damage occurs (the cones will rattle and the voice coils will bottom-out), but clipping amps exceed the duty cycles of voice coils and crossover inductors and they get hot with no chance to cool down between waveform peaks (a clipping amp is turned on-HARD for all the time it's clipping essentially dumping lots of current into the speakers non-stop. This is a gross simplification but essentially, when these components get their duty cycles constantly exceeded, they burn-up. A bigger amp will alleviate this problem. I can't imagine a 100 W/channel amplifier damaging any modern, decent speaker. Especially the crossover - unless its clipping and clipping a lot! That's an interesting point that you bring up. At first I scratched my head wondering if I'm really letting the amplifier clip. I googled up clipping and came away with the impression that alot of clipping is not quite obvious. NAD had an amplifier in the 1980s that had and LED clipping light, which further suggests that when the amp was clipping it need to make itself known, and not by ear. So I gather you are totally on point about my clipping my speakers to death You may have just saved me a lot of money. Rather than get new speakers, I'll fix my Tower IIs again under warranty and try a beefier amp. Should I get, like 200 watts/channel? How much is too much? For most people there is no upper range. I've seen people power speakers rated at 200 Watts with 800 Watt amps without damage because the AVERAGE power to the speakers in the 10's of Watts, not the hundreds. But then these people weren't driving the speakers in question to self-destruct volume levels either. The power is there to handle peaks, not to provide ear-splitting volume levels. Remember power vs volume is largely a logarithmic function. A 25 Watt amp is only twice as loud as a 2.5 Watt amp and a 250 Watt amp only twice as loud as a 25 Watt amp (all else being equal). There are other things to consider here as well. You may be using the inappropriate speaker for the size room you have. If you are trying to play music at rock concert levels in a fairly large room, you may be just driving your speakers too hard. A bigger speaker system that was perhaps more efficient and moved more air would play louder without stress than a smaller speaker driven hard. That's just physics. The actual perceived loudness is a function of how much air there is between your ears and the speaker drivers. The greater the volume of the room, the more air that has to be moved to attain the same dB level as is attained in a much smaller room with a smaller speaker and amp. Any recommnedations on amps? I prefer integrated amps, stereo only. I haven't made the jump to home theater and don't plan on it anytime soon. I would have loved to own a NAD but have heard too many horror stories about their un-reliabilty. Try a Behringer EP2500 Power Amp as recommended by Arny Kruger. It puts out more than 500 Watts/Channel into 6 Ohms and will set you back only about $350. But do yourself a favor, and put a fuse in line with the speaker. Find out how much power the speakers are rated at, and their nominal impedance. Use the formula I (for the fuse size in amperes) = the square root of P (the speakers rated power handling capacity in Watts) divided by R (the nominal speaker impedance in ohms). Go for a fast-blow fuse about 10% larger than the results of the math. There's also this bad boy from Denon which peaked my interest; http://www.needledoctor.com/Denon-PM...ated-Amplifier It's only rated at 80 w/channel but has very high current capability. Any other suggestions out there? Buy a Behringer, you won't be disappointed. Thanks |
|
#7
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
|
|||
|
|||
|
System down: Audiophile urgency
On Apr 14, 9:55 pm, "Arny Krueger" wrote:
.......... Good points. Thanks, Mr, Krueger. You may be right. My Tower IIs have fried their xovers twice in about 4 months. Maybe that' their main weakness. I also have the Ensemble II speakers, very inefficient at 85 db/watt. My Yamaha AX596 can't drive them hard enough and they have never ever failed. The Behringer amp you suggested could probably drive them quite decently, but I needed more than those Ensembles could give. They had no depth and the system only went down to 40 Hz. The tower IIs, at 90 or 91 db/watt, are much more efficient and go deeper, down to 30 Hz compared to the Ensembles 40 Hz. Oh, and the tower IIs have a significnant depth to them as well. Quite seductive, especially after moving up from the Ensembles. But the xovers keep failing. Hmmm, decisions decisions. How hard would it be to take the Xover out and replace the components with higher grade stuff? I'm a novice when it comes this. Just wondering. CD |
|
#8
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
|
|||
|
|||
|
System down: Audiophile urgency
On Apr 14, 9:56*pm, codifus wrote:
On Apr 13, 10:12 pm, Sonnova wrote: On Sun, 13 Apr 2008 07:00:19 -0700, Codifus wrote (in article ): Hello all, my beloved and economic audiophile system has experienced another breakdown. This is the 2nd one in 4 months. Who is the culprit? The EMU 0404 USB. Do I blame it? No. Not at all. Why? I've been enjoying music so much now with the 0404 USB that there have been periods that I would listen for several hours on end, at or near rated amplifier power, no doubt stressing all components of my system. I was never able to do this before, and I love the way the way the 0404 USB improved the system. My system: Itunes based music server feeding an Apple Airport Express. The Airport Express optically feeds the EMU 0404 USB a 44/16 signal. The 0404USB then feeds its line level output to a Yamaha AX-596 amplifier rated at 100 watts/channel with a healthy abilitty to drive 4 ohms. Speakers? Cambridge Soundworks Tower IIs. Power rating? I'm not sure. Cambridge Soundworks has been very careful to keep the speaker power handling spec, but from obscure data picked up here and there on the web, I gather that they are rated in the 100 to 250 watt/channel range. Anyhow, I have much respect for the late Henry Kloss, * founder of Cambridge Soundworks because I can see that he strived to produce very good, audiophile type speakers at an economical cost. I've been an avid fan for quite some time, starting off wiht his ensemble speakers. Weaknesses of the Tower II? Something tells me that when Mr. Kloss built the Tower II speakers, to keep his costs low, he chose a dome tweeter which does have a "hotspot." There are frequencies in which it tends to respond to a little to strongly. A slight annoyance, but not enough to take away the enjoyment of the music. Also, the midrange is not quite flat. There are probably undulations in frequency response here and there. Despite its weaknesses, though, these speakers do not fail to convey the life of the music. Still, for a pair of speakers that relay the beauty of music, the ability to reproduce a frequency range from 30 Hz to 20 Khz in a respectable manner, all for the cost of about $500.00, I am totally in their camp. Mr. Kloss kept his eye on the true prize: presenting music in a natural, realistic manner. Even with the foibles metiontioned previously, these tower IIs can really sing. There would be times I have my amp pumping at rated power and the music just takes me. * With the recent addition of the EMU 0404 USB, the music would take me for hours on end. I would just keep going. Songs that come to mind a "Rememberances" from the Schindler's List Soundtrack "Arise, Clay", from the Gods and Monsters Soundtrack "Die Another Day" - Pop star Madonna's theme to the James Bond Movie "Shawshanck Redemption - End title, So was Red" Shawshank redemption movie soundtrack Oh, and by the way, my Yamaha feeds the tower IIs in a bi-wire setup. A single point of contact on the amp goes to 2 separate connections on the speaker. One pair of wires for the midrange/tweeter and the other pair for the dual woofers. Another thing: my amp's tone controls are always set to bypass; the audio signal goes straight from the source to the amp, thru the volume control, onto the speakers. That's it. Problem: I cooked my Xovers. This is the 2nd time this has happened in a 5 month period. My woofers work fine for both melt downs but the mids and tweeter are SOL. To verify, I dis-connected the tweeter and tested it individualy to find that it was ok, so I concluded that the problem was the xovers. Anyhow, this is the 2nd time around, so I know For this 2nd go round, just 1 of my speakers cooked the xovers. The other one is fine. But who knows for how long the other one will last given the history. So now I'm at the point that I have to upgrade the speakers. Here's what I'm looking for: Audiophile quality speakers with these specifications: 3 dimensional soundstage, or least speakers with some depth. Able to produce down to 30 Hz, to reach "down below," so to speak. I look at 40 Hz as the breaking point. 40 Hz and higher is the fake bass, whereas anything below is bass you can feel, rock your foundations. These tower IIs introduced me to 30 Hz bass and I never want to go back Economical price tag, in the $1000 to $2000 price range. I've had my eye on the B&W range of speakers but would appreaciate if anyone could point me to other options. Thanks in advance. I am truly hurting, here. How would you feel if 1 of your speakers lost its xover, 5 months after being replaced? Please recommend replacement speakers that will hopefully fill the criteria I mentioned above. Thanks CD I can't give you any recommendations with regard to specific speakers, but I do have a suggestion: Whether you get your current speakers fixed again or buy new ones either put a fuse in-line with the speakers or get a bigger amplifier, or better yet, do both! Yes, you heard me right, a BIGGER amplifier. You are likely clipping your Yamaha and clipping amps will fry speakers a lot quicker than will too-much power. As long as the amp isn't clipping, your speakers will tell you in no uncertain terms that you are overdriving them long before any damage occurs (the cones will rattle and the voice coils will bottom-out), but clipping amps exceed the duty cycles of voice coils and crossover inductors and they get hot with no chance to cool down between waveform peaks (a clipping amp is turned on-HARD for all the time it's clipping essentially dumping lots of current into the speakers non-stop. This is a gross simplification but essentially, when these components get their duty cycles constantly exceeded, they burn-up. A bigger amp will alleviate this problem. I can't imagine a 100 W/channel amplifier damaging any modern, decent speaker. Especially the crossover - unless its clipping and clipping a lot! That's an interesting point that you bring up. At first I scratched my head wondering if I'm really letting the amplifier clip. I googled up clipping and came away with the impression that alot of clipping is not quite obvious. NAD had an amplifier in the 1980s that had and LED clipping light, which further suggests that when the amp was clipping it need to make itself known, and not by ear. So I gather you are totally on point about my clipping my speakers to death You may have just saved me a lot of money. Rather than get new speakers, I'll fix my Tower IIs again under warranty and try a beefier amp. Should I get, like 200 watts/channel? How much is too much? Any recommnedations on amps? I prefer integrated amps, stereo only. I haven't made the jump to home theater and don't plan on it anytime soon. I would have loved to own a NAD but have heard too many horror stories about their un-reliabilty. There's also this bad boy from Denon which peaked my interest; http://www.needledoctor.com/Denon-PM...ntegrated-Ampl... It's only rated at 80 w/channel but has very high current capability. Any other suggestions out there? I'm not sure what your problem is, but I'm pretty sure the problem is NOT that your Yamaha amp just can't drive your speakers. And if a 100wpc Yamaha amp can't drive them, an 80wpc Denon is unlikely to do the trick, either. There may be something wrong with your amp that is causing this problem, and you might want to have a tech look at it. But my guess is that the speakers are your problem, and you should replace them. If you want a bargain, look for a pair of the discontinued Infinity Beta 50s, of few of which are still available. bob |
|
#9
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
|
|||
|
|||
|
System down: Audiophile urgency
bob wrote:
On Apr 14, 9:56 pm, codifus wrote: On Apr 13, 10:12 pm, Sonnova wrote: On Sun, 13 Apr 2008 07:00:19 -0700, Codifus wrote (in article ): Hello all, my beloved and economic audiophile system has experienced another breakdown. This is the 2nd one in 4 months. Who is the culprit? The EMU 0404 USB. Do I blame it? No. Not at all. Why? I've been enjoying music so much now with the 0404 USB that there have been periods that I would listen for several hours on end, at or near rated amplifier power, no doubt stressing all components of my system. I was never able to do this before, and I love the way the way the 0404 USB improved the system. My system: Itunes based music server feeding an Apple Airport Express. The Airport Express optically feeds the EMU 0404 USB a 44/16 signal. The 0404USB then feeds its line level output to a Yamaha AX-596 amplifier rated at 100 watts/channel with a healthy abilitty to drive 4 ohms. Speakers? Cambridge Soundworks Tower IIs. Power rating? I'm not sure. Cambridge Soundworks has been very careful to keep the speaker power handling spec, but from obscure data picked up here and there on the web, I gather that they are rated in the 100 to 250 watt/channel range. Anyhow, I have much respect for the late Henry Kloss, founder of Cambridge Soundworks because I can see that he strived to produce very good, audiophile type speakers at an economical cost. I've been an avid fan for quite some time, starting off wiht his ensemble speakers. Weaknesses of the Tower II? Something tells me that when Mr. Kloss built the Tower II speakers, to keep his costs low, he chose a dome tweeter which does have a "hotspot." There are frequencies in which it tends to respond to a little to strongly. A slight annoyance, but not enough to take away the enjoyment of the music. Also, the midrange is not quite flat. There are probably undulations in frequency response here and there. Despite its weaknesses, though, these speakers do not fail to convey the life of the music. Still, for a pair of speakers that relay the beauty of music, the ability to reproduce a frequency range from 30 Hz to 20 Khz in a respectable manner, all for the cost of about $500.00, I am totally in their camp. Mr. Kloss kept his eye on the true prize: presenting music in a natural, realistic manner. Even with the foibles metiontioned previously, these tower IIs can really sing. There would be times I have my amp pumping at rated power and the music just takes me. With the recent addition of the EMU 0404 USB, the music would take me for hours on end. I would just keep going. Songs that come to mind a "Rememberances" from the Schindler's List Soundtrack "Arise, Clay", from the Gods and Monsters Soundtrack "Die Another Day" - Pop star Madonna's theme to the James Bond Movie "Shawshanck Redemption - End title, So was Red" Shawshank redemption movie soundtrack Oh, and by the way, my Yamaha feeds the tower IIs in a bi-wire setup. A single point of contact on the amp goes to 2 separate connections on the speaker. One pair of wires for the midrange/tweeter and the other pair for the dual woofers. Another thing: my amp's tone controls are always set to bypass; the audio signal goes straight from the source to the amp, thru the volume control, onto the speakers. That's it. Problem: I cooked my Xovers. This is the 2nd time this has happened in a 5 month period. My woofers work fine for both melt downs but the mids and tweeter are SOL. To verify, I dis-connected the tweeter and tested it individualy to find that it was ok, so I concluded that the problem was the xovers. Anyhow, this is the 2nd time around, so I know For this 2nd go round, just 1 of my speakers cooked the xovers. The other one is fine. But who knows for how long the other one will last given the history. So now I'm at the point that I have to upgrade the speakers. Here's what I'm looking for: Audiophile quality speakers with these specifications: 3 dimensional soundstage, or least speakers with some depth. Able to produce down to 30 Hz, to reach "down below," so to speak. I look at 40 Hz as the breaking point. 40 Hz and higher is the fake bass, whereas anything below is bass you can feel, rock your foundations. These tower IIs introduced me to 30 Hz bass and I never want to go back Economical price tag, in the $1000 to $2000 price range. I've had my eye on the B&W range of speakers but would appreaciate if anyone could point me to other options. Thanks in advance. I am truly hurting, here. How would you feel if 1 of your speakers lost its xover, 5 months after being replaced? Please recommend replacement speakers that will hopefully fill the criteria I mentioned above. Thanks CD I can't give you any recommendations with regard to specific speakers, but I do have a suggestion: Whether you get your current speakers fixed again or buy new ones either put a fuse in-line with the speakers or get a bigger amplifier, or better yet, do both! Yes, you heard me right, a BIGGER amplifier. You are likely clipping your Yamaha and clipping amps will fry speakers a lot quicker than will too-much power. As long as the amp isn't clipping, your speakers will tell you in no uncertain terms that you are overdriving them long before any damage occurs (the cones will rattle and the voice coils will bottom-out), but clipping amps exceed the duty cycles of voice coils and crossover inductors and they get hot with no chance to cool down between waveform peaks (a clipping amp is turned on-HARD for all the time it's clipping essentially dumping lots of current into the speakers non-stop. This is a gross simplification but essentially, when these components get their duty cycles constantly exceeded, they burn-up. A bigger amp will alleviate this problem. I can't imagine a 100 W/channel amplifier damaging any modern, decent speaker. Especially the crossover - unless its clipping and clipping a lot! That's an interesting point that you bring up. At first I scratched my head wondering if I'm really letting the amplifier clip. I googled up clipping and came away with the impression that alot of clipping is not quite obvious. NAD had an amplifier in the 1980s that had and LED clipping light, which further suggests that when the amp was clipping it need to make itself known, and not by ear. So I gather you are totally on point about my clipping my speakers to death You may have just saved me a lot of money. Rather than get new speakers, I'll fix my Tower IIs again under warranty and try a beefier amp. Should I get, like 200 watts/channel? How much is too much? Any recommnedations on amps? I prefer integrated amps, stereo only. I haven't made the jump to home theater and don't plan on it anytime soon. I would have loved to own a NAD but have heard too many horror stories about their un-reliabilty. There's also this bad boy from Denon which peaked my interest; http://www.needledoctor.com/Denon-PM...ntegrated-Ampl... It's only rated at 80 w/channel but has very high current capability. Any other suggestions out there? I'm not sure what your problem is, but I'm pretty sure the problem is NOT that your Yamaha amp just can't drive your speakers. And if a 100wpc Yamaha amp can't drive them, an 80wpc Denon is unlikely to do the trick, either. There may be something wrong with your amp that is causing this problem, and you might want to have a tech look at it. But my guess is that the speakers are your problem, and you should replace them. If you want a bargain, look for a pair of the discontinued Infinity Beta 50s, of few of which are still available. bob The Denon is avery high current amplifier with a circuit design that is described as able to accommodate more headroom (less clipping I assume when driving hard) than most traditional amplifier designs. It may be rated as less powerfull than my Yamaha, but reviews and its literature suggest that it can deliver more. When I 1st bought the Yamaha, I was also looking at the Denon and NAD C372. If the NAD was reliable, I would have bought it. There was also a Rotel Amp, I forgot which model, though. Those beta 50s are very interesting, and quite inexpensive, too. I may experiment with them for a time being while my speakers are being repaired. They are like a non-identical twin to the Tower IIs. Same speaker setup with dual 8" woofers, midrange and tweeter. Most fascinating CD |
|
#10
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
|
|||
|
|||
|
System down: Audiophile urgency
Arny Krueger wrote:
..... The most common source of loudspeaker failure is as you seem to be suggesting, simple excessive power causing things to heat up and fry. Often all a more powerful amp accomplishes is to speed the process because it takes a lot of power to have an amplifier that sounds significantly louder than 100 wpc. Looking forward, I see a need for speakers that can handle a lot of power for a long time and keep ticking. Well, when I purchased the Yamaha AX596, it repalced an Onkyo integra rated at 80 watts/channel. That small difference of 20 watts really made a difference in my setup. I do miss that Onkyo, though. It was less powerful, but cleaner. At full steam the Yamaha sounds a bit more harsh than the Onkyo ever did. But then, the Onkyo had an overzealous self protection circuit. Once it was what seems like slightly overdriven, that Integra would simply click off. The Yamaha I can drive to absurdly loud levels and it never turns off. Only does an insane overload on the Yamaha force its protecttion circuit to kick in, like a badly corrupted wav file on my computer or something. Here's another thing I wonder: the Yamaha has an impedance matching switch on the back. Switch it to the left when attaching speakers with 4 ohms of impedance. switch to the right for 6 ohms. My Tower IIs are nominally rated at 6 ohms so I left the Yamaha's switch at the 6 ohm setting. Does bi-wiring change the impedance presented to the amplifier in a considerable manner? Once I setup the Tower IIs in a bi-wire setup, should I have flipped the impedance switch to the 4 ohm setting? None of the manuals tell me much in that regard, just how things should be hooked up. Thanks CD |
|
#11
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
|
|||
|
|||
|
System down: Audiophile urgency
Without commenting about failure mode or speaker quality, I would like
to bring the following into consideration: - Does an audiophile really want to place a non-linear current dependent resistor in series with the speaker system (fuse), though the induced effect may be inaudible, it *is* measurable and magnitudes higher than effects created by bi-wiring, golden interconnects etc. - Death by clipping: note that with normal audio content, lower frequencies will clip first, effectively drowning (saturating) the higher freq content (if the voltage excursion hits the power supply rail, smaller waveforms are not there anymore). Spectrally observed, the high freq content does *not* get higher when clipping occurs, mostly lower. What kills the system is higher *average* power (clipping is the ultimate dynamic compression), not the clipping event itself. A bigger non-clipping amp with the same gain setting would kill the speaker faster. -- - René |
|
#12
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
|
|||
|
|||
|
System down: Audiophile urgency
"codifus" wrote in message
... On Apr 14, 9:55 pm, "Arny Krueger" wrote: ......... How hard would it be to take the Xover out and replace the components with higher grade stuff? I'm a novice when it comes this. Just wondering. Technically, not difficult at all if you haven't heat-damaged a PCB significantly. But... are the speakers worth it? You'll probably spend $50-$100 on parts after you get them all shipped to you if you opt for some high-quality caps and chokes. Then you might have issues with fit if the parts are mounted on a circuit board. You could probably sell the speakers and invest the same $$ into a used pair of much better speakers which retail for more than $500 new. Dave |
|
#13
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
|
|||
|
|||
|
System down: Audiophile urgency
On Apr 16, 10:18*pm, Codifus wrote:
The Denon is avery high current amplifier with a circuit design that is described as able to accommodate more headroom *(less clipping I assume when driving hard) than most traditional amplifier designs. It may be rated as less powerfull than my Yamaha, but reviews and its literature suggest that it can deliver more. Unless you've seen independent measurements, I would take those claims with a large grain of salt. The Denon does step up a bit more into 4 ohms than the Yamaha does (80 to 160, vs. 100 to 155), but they wind up in the same place. For what it's worth, Yamaha claims dynamic power of 220w into 4 ohms. In short, I don't see any way that your Yamaha is clipping, unless it's malfunctioning. And if it's not clipping, the Denon isn't going to solve your problem. bob |
|
#14
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
|
|||
|
|||
|
System down: Audiophile urgency
On Apr 16, 10:25 pm, "Dave" wrote:
"codifus" wrote in message ... On Apr 14, 9:55 pm, "Arny Krueger" wrote: ......... How hard would it be to take the Xover out and replace the components with higher grade stuff? I'm a novice when it comes this. Just wondering. Technically, not difficult at all if you haven't heat-damaged a PCB significantly. But... are the speakers worth it? You'll probably spend $50-$100 on parts after you get them all shipped to you if you opt for some high-quality caps and chokes. Then you might have issues with fit if the parts are mounted on a circuit board. You could probably sell the speakers and invest the same $$ into a used pair of much better speakers which retail for more than $500 new. Dave True. I'm slowly coming to the conclusion that the Tower IIs just can't handle extended listening at high power anymore. I've had them for about 4 years, and it was only in the last year, after adding the 0404USB to my system that the Tower IIs have been dying. That 0404USB made me enjoy music so much more that my listening time went up significantly, and the weakest link in my system therefore failed. I guess I have to buy bigger speakers. Those Infinity Beta 50s, look nice, but I feel I may be jumping from the frying pan into the fire because they seem to have similar power handling capabilities to the Tower IIs. Something tells me that I'll be cooking something on those as well. Funny how my increased enjoyment of my stereo has caused me to fry my speakers CD |
|
#15
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
|
|||
|
|||
|
System down: Audiophile urgency
On Thu, 17 Apr 2008 02:24:54 +0000, Ren wrote:
Without commenting about failure mode or speaker quality, I would like to bring the following into consideration: - Does an audiophile really want to place a non-linear current dependent resistor in series with the speaker system (fuse), though the induced effect may be inaudible, it *is* measurable and magnitudes higher than effects created by bi-wiring, golden interconnects etc. - Death by clipping: note that with normal audio content, lower frequencies will clip first, Do yo mean lower frequencies will cause the amplifier to clip more then higher frequencies? That is true. effectively drowning (saturating) the higher freq content (if the voltage excursion hits the power supply rail, smaller waveforms are not there anymore). Spectrally observed, the high freq content does *not* get higher when clipping occurs, mostly lower. Not sure at all, maybe if the power supply is too small for the amplifier. When the amplifier clips, it produces lots of high frequency products, which go through the passive filter and are lead to the tweeter. I think it is well known that one can burn a tweeter by putting the ( low )loudness on and turn the bass up. ( and causing the amplifier to clip ). Edmund |
|
#16
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
|
|||
|
|||
|
System down: Audiophile urgency
On Thu, 17 Apr 2008 16:46:18 -0700, codifus wrote
(in article ): On Apr 16, 10:25 pm, "Dave" wrote: "codifus" wrote in message ... On Apr 14, 9:55 pm, "Arny Krueger" wrote: ......... How hard would it be to take the Xover out and replace the components with higher grade stuff? I'm a novice when it comes this. Just wondering. Technically, not difficult at all if you haven't heat-damaged a PCB significantly. But... are the speakers worth it? You'll probably spend $50-$100 on parts after you get them all shipped to you if you opt for some high-quality caps and chokes. Then you might have issues with fit if the parts are mounted on a circuit board. You could probably sell the speakers and invest the same $$ into a used pair of much better speakers which retail for more than $500 new. Dave True. I'm slowly coming to the conclusion that the Tower IIs just can't handle extended listening at high power anymore. I've had them for about 4 years, and it was only in the last year, after adding the 0404USB to my system that the Tower IIs have been dying. That 0404USB made me enjoy music so much more that my listening time went up significantly, and the weakest link in my system therefore failed. I guess I have to buy bigger speakers. Those Infinity Beta 50s, look nice, but I feel I may be jumping from the frying pan into the fire because they seem to have similar power handling capabilities to the Tower IIs. Something tells me that I'll be cooking something on those as well. Funny how my increased enjoyment of my stereo has caused me to fry my speakers CD Do you listen at extremely high sound pressure levels? It seems that you do. If so you need to look into types of speakers that are either very efficient such as horns or speakers designed to handle big watts like those for sound reinforcement. Both of these produce very high average levels without damage. The horns because they turn more of the electrical energy from the amplifiers into sound, and the reinforcement speakers because they are designed to play loud using lots of power and to withstand the heat produced when that power is translated into acoustical energy. Like any machine, speakers turn wasted energy into heat and if the speakers aren't designed to handle that kind of duty, damage can result. |
|
#17
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
|
|||
|
|||
|
System down: Audiophile urgency
On 17 Apr 2008 23:58:04 GMT, Edmund wrote:
Not sure at all, maybe if the power supply is too small for the amplifier. When the amplifier clips, it produces lots of high frequency products, which go through the passive filter and are lead to the tweeter. I think it is well known that one can burn a tweeter by putting the ( low )loudness on and turn the bass up. ( and causing the amplifier to clip ). I just ventured to explain the clipping event itself does not distroy speakers / tweeters or xovers. There is another mechanism at work. The "small amplifiers fry speakers due to clipping" sort of grew into sort of an urban legend; it may be useful to understand the full mechanism. I found the following study useful: http://www.audiovisualdevices.com.au...ne/note128.pdf -- - René |
|
#18
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
|
|||
|
|||
|
System down: Audiophile urgency
"Codifus" wrote in message
... snip I do miss that Onkyo, though. It was less powerful, but cleaner. At full steam the Yamaha sounds a bit more harsh than the Onkyo ever did. snip You may have described the audible signs of "clipping" Perhaps your full steam is a few two many pounds over pressure for the boiler! Essentially clipping produces square waves, initially only on the highest "peaks", but as the overload increases in severity, the impact of the clipping becomes clearly audible. During the "is it or isn't it" stage - the amp is still producing an increased spectrum of high frequencies, which MIGHT be a worry to a marginally rated tweeter / crossover, but severe clipping probably "takes out" the crossover / tweeter as well as significantly increasing the power dissipated in the woofer. In addition the effectiveness of it's voice coil cooling will be compromised - spending time stopped at both extremities. My guess would be you killed them Judging the onset of clipping is an art depending on the music source material. Good luck Dave |
|
#19
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
|
|||
|
|||
|
System down: Audiophile urgency
On Apr 18, 5:48 pm, "DC" wrote:
"Codifus" wrote in message ... snip I do miss that Onkyo, though. It was less powerful, but cleaner. At full steam the Yamaha sounds a bit more harsh than the Onkyo ever did. snip You may have described the audible signs of "clipping" Perhaps your full steam is a few two many pounds over pressure for the boiler! Essentially clipping produces square waves, initially only on the highest "peaks", but as the overload increases in severity, the impact of the clipping becomes clearly audible. During the "is it or isn't it" stage - the amp is still producing an increased spectrum of high frequencies, which MIGHT be a worry to a marginally rated tweeter / crossover, but severe clipping probably "takes out" the crossover / tweeter as well as significantly increasing the power dissipated in the woofer. In addition the effectiveness of it's voice coil cooling will be compromised - spending time stopped at both extremities. My guess would be you killed them Judging the onset of clipping is an art depending on the music source material. Good luck Dave The music source, in my scenario, is key. I love dynamic, powerful music. Strong bass content in the 40 Hz and lower range just adds to my enjoyment. From the study that Rene referenced, I can see that I must have been clipping my system frequently, more due to the low frequencies topping out my Yamaha, and the high frequencies which are "riding the wave" and clipping at peak levels. The Xovers over-heated and that was that. Last time this happened, both my xovers died and I had no mid-range or tweeter, but all the speakers themselves were fine. Now, just one xover died and it took out only the tweeter. Again, the tweeter is fine as I tested it outside of the system. A bigger amplifier in my scenario would reduce the clipping, but high average power levels (which I am bound to explore ) will probablycook the xovers again, as the xovers seem to be the weakest link of my tower II speakers. Also, I found another source of distortion: my music server. Basically a software upgrade of itunes led to a hardware limitation in my music server system. I'll expand on that in another thread. Thanks. CD |
|
#20
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
|
|||
|
|||
|
System down: Audiophile urgency
On Fri, 18 Apr 2008 21:37:56 +0000, Ren wrote:
On 17 Apr 2008 23:58:04 GMT, Edmund wrote: I just ventured to explain the clipping event itself does not distroy speakers / tweeters or xovers. There is another mechanism at work. The "small amplifiers fry speakers due to clipping" sort of grew into sort of an urban legend; it may be useful to understand the full mechanism. I found the following study useful: http://www.audiovisualdevices.com.au...ne/note128.pdf Thank you I will read this.. Edmund |
|
#21
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
|
|||
|
|||
|
System down: Audiophile urgency
codifus wrote:
The music source, in my scenario, is key. I love dynamic, powerful music. Strong bass content in the 40 Hz and lower range just adds to my enjoyment. If you want so much low bass why don't you just add a powered sub woofer? Then you can use the Yamaha for mid bass and up. ---MIKE--- In the White Mountains of New Hampshire (44° 15' N - Elevation 1580') |
|
#22
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
|
|||
|
|||
|
System down: Audiophile urgency
On Apr 18, 5:32 pm, Sonnova wrote:
On Thu, 17 Apr 2008 16:46:18 -0700, codifus wrote (in article ): On Apr 16, 10:25 pm, "Dave" wrote: "codifus" wrote in message ... On Apr 14, 9:55 pm, "Arny Krueger" wrote: ......... How hard would it be to take the Xover out and replace the components with higher grade stuff? I'm a novice when it comes this. Just wondering. Technically, not difficult at all if you haven't heat-damaged a PCB significantly. But... are the speakers worth it? You'll probably spend $50-$100 on parts after you get them all shipped to you if you opt for some high-quality caps and chokes. Then you might have issues with fit if the parts are mounted on a circuit board. You could probably sell the speakers and invest the same $$ into a used pair of much better speakers which retail for more than $500 new. Dave True. I'm slowly coming to the conclusion that the Tower IIs just can't handle extended listening at high power anymore. I've had them for about 4 years, and it was only in the last year, after adding the 0404USB to my system that the Tower IIs have been dying. That 0404USB made me enjoy music so much more that my listening time went up significantly, and the weakest link in my system therefore failed. I guess I have to buy bigger speakers. Those Infinity Beta 50s, look nice, but I feel I may be jumping from the frying pan into the fire because they seem to have similar power handling capabilities to the Tower IIs. Something tells me that I'll be cooking something on those as well. Funny how my increased enjoyment of my stereo has caused me to fry my speakers CD Do you listen at extremely high sound pressure levels? It seems that you do. If so you need to look into types of speakers that are either very efficient such as horns or speakers designed to handle big watts like those for sound reinforcement. Both of these produce very high average levels without damage. The horns because they turn more of the electrical energy from the amplifiers into sound, and the reinforcement speakers because they are designed to play loud using lots of power and to withstand the heat produced when that power is translated into acoustical energy. Like any machine, speakers turn wasted energy into heat and if the speakers aren't designed to handle that kind of duty, damage can result. I've read some reviews of horns and some have said that they sound bright. I like to turn it up, but I also like the bass to keep up as well. CD |
|
#23
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
|
|||
|
|||
|
System down: Audiophile urgency
On Apr 21, 6:30 pm, (---MIKE---) wrote:
codifus wrote: The music source, in my scenario, is key. I love dynamic, powerful music. Strong bass content in the 40 Hz and lower range just adds to my enjoyment. If you want so much low bass why don't you just add a powered sub woofer? Then you can use the Yamaha for mid bass and up. ---MIKE---In the White Mountains of New Hampshire (44° 15' N - Elevation 1580') I kind of like 2.0 stereo. I would prefer bigger floor standers than have a 2.1 system. I feel that that single sub-woofer may cause more room nodes whereas 2 woofers bringing up the bass smoothens the bottom end response. CD |
|
#24
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
|
|||
|
|||
|
System down: Audiophile urgency
"codifus" wrote in message
... On Apr 21, 6:30 pm, (---MIKE---) wrote: codifus wrote: The music source, in my scenario, is key. I love dynamic, powerful music. Strong bass content in the 40 Hz and lower range just adds to my enjoyment. If you want so much low bass why don't you just add a powered sub woofer? Then you can use the Yamaha for mid bass and up. ---MIKE---In the White Mountains of New Hampshire (44° 15' N - Elevation 1580') I kind of like 2.0 stereo. I would prefer bigger floor standers than have a 2.1 system. I feel that that single sub-woofer may cause more room nodes whereas 2 woofers bringing up the bass smoothens the bottom end response. CD Or you could have a 2.2 system as I have. If you really like your main 'speakers but want a bit more support down below, then add two active subwoofers, preferably those with filters that can keep the very low frequencies out of your mains. Locate the subs close to your mains, or even use the subs as stands for your mains if that's sensible, and you keep the quality you like with a bit more below. S. -- http://audiopages.googlepages.com |
|
#25
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
|
|||
|
|||
|
System down: Audiophile urgency
Revel speakers are not especially efficient, but they do have quite high
power handling capability, and the capability to play what is sent to them at high levels without compressing. Actually, I'm speaking about the Gem and better, but I assume there is trickle-down to their lower models too. That is if you can afford the higher pricetag than you Cambridge. |
|
#26
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
|
|||
|
|||
|
System down: Audiophile urgency
On Fri, 18 Apr 2008 21:37:56 +0000, Ren wrote:
On 17 Apr 2008 23:58:04 GMT, Edmund wrote: Not sure at all, maybe if the power supply is too small for the amplifier. When the amplifier clips, it produces lots of high frequency products, which go through the passive filter and are lead to the tweeter. I think it is well known that one can burn a tweeter by putting the ( low )loudness on and turn the bass up. ( and causing the amplifier to clip ). I just ventured to explain the clipping event itself does not distroy speakers / tweeters or xovers. There is another mechanism at work. The "small amplifiers fry speakers due to clipping" sort of grew into sort of an urban legend; it may be useful to understand the full mechanism. I found the following study useful: http://www.audiovisualdevices.com.au...ne/note128.pdf I don't think this is the whole true either. It is more an advertising story from a manufacturer. I experienced a blown out tweeter first hand in a time there wasn't anything like this compression. One other thing they don't mention is that the distortion products aren't the only signals that go to the tweeter. If a amplifier is clipping it is very likely the tweeter is also performing, over, at or near it's max output, the distortion products are added to this. Edmund |
|
#27
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
|
|||
|
|||
|
System down: Audiophile urgency
Serge Auckland wrote:
"codifus" wrote in message ... On Apr 21, 6:30 pm, (---MIKE---) wrote: codifus wrote: The music source, in my scenario, is key. I love dynamic, powerful music. Strong bass content in the 40 Hz and lower range just adds to my enjoyment. If you want so much low bass why don't you just add a powered sub woofer? Then you can use the Yamaha for mid bass and up. ---MIKE---In the White Mountains of New Hampshire (44° 15' N - Elevation 1580') I kind of like 2.0 stereo. I would prefer bigger floor standers than have a 2.1 system. I feel that that single sub-woofer may cause more room nodes whereas 2 woofers bringing up the bass smoothens the bottom end response. CD Or you could have a 2.2 system as I have. If you really like your main 'speakers but want a bit more support down below, then add two active subwoofers, preferably those with filters that can keep the very low frequencies out of your mains. Locate the subs close to your mains, or even use the subs as stands for your mains if that's sensible, and you keep the quality you like with a bit more below. S. That's a dammned good idea . . . but I'd feel very guilty for the incredbale bass havoc I would invoke throughout my household Also, my hifi room is very small, an overly square, audio-unfiendly 10' by 10'. CD |
|
#28
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
|
|||
|
|||
|
System down: Audiophile urgency
Ah the EMU! Glad you're still liking it Codifus, cos I seem to
remember I was originally responsible for you checking it out in the first place. However I started to get worried when you said it was to blame! For those who haven't checked it out, it's definitely worth a look: http://www.emu.com/products/product.asp?product=15185 When I'm not using mine for live recording, it acts as a "digital pre-amp" connected to a Behringer A500 amp. Just don't blame me if you wear out the rest of your gear as a result of this little box! :-) On 13 Apr 2008 14:00:19 GMT, Codifus wrote: Hello all, my beloved and economic audiophile system has experienced another breakdown. This is the 2nd one in 4 months. Who is the culprit? The EMU 0404 USB. Do I blame it? No. Not at all. Why? I've been enjoying music so much now with the 0404 USB that there have been periods that I would listen for several hours on end, at or near rated amplifier power, no doubt stressing all components of my system. I was never able to do this before, and I love the way the way the 0404 USB improved the system. My system: Itunes based music server feeding an Apple Airport Express. The Airport Express optically feeds the EMU 0404 USB a 44/16 signal. The 0404USB then feeds its line level output to a Yamaha AX-596 amplifier rated at 100 watts/channel with a healthy abilitty to drive 4 ohms. Speakers? Cambridge Soundworks Tower IIs. Power rating? I'm not sure. Cambridge Soundworks has been very careful to keep the speaker power handling spec, but from obscure data picked up here and there on the web, I gather that they are rated in the 100 to 250 watt/channel range. Anyhow, I have much respect for the late Henry Kloss, founder of Cambridge Soundworks because I can see that he strived to produce very good, audiophile type speakers at an economical cost. I've been an avid fan for quite some time, starting off wiht his ensemble speakers. Weaknesses of the Tower II? Something tells me that when Mr. Kloss built the Tower II speakers, to keep his costs low, he chose a dome tweeter which does have a "hotspot." There are frequencies in which it tends to respond to a little to strongly. A slight annoyance, but not enough to take away the enjoyment of the music. Also, the midrange is not quite flat. There are probably undulations in frequency response here and there. Despite its weaknesses, though, these speakers do not fail to convey the life of the music. Still, for a pair of speakers that relay the beauty of music, the ability to reproduce a frequency range from 30 Hz to 20 Khz in a respectable manner, all for the cost of about $500.00, I am totally in their camp. Mr. Kloss kept his eye on the true prize: presenting music in a natural, realistic manner. Even with the foibles metiontioned previously, these tower IIs can really sing. There would be times I have my amp pumping at rated power and the music just takes me. With the recent addition of the EMU 0404 USB, the music would take me for hours on end. I would just keep going. Songs that come to mind a "Rememberances" from the Schindler's List Soundtrack "Arise, Clay", from the Gods and Monsters Soundtrack "Die Another Day" - Pop star Madonna's theme to the James Bond Movie "Shawshanck Redemption - End title, So was Red" Shawshank redemption movie soundtrack Oh, and by the way, my Yamaha feeds the tower IIs in a bi-wire setup. A single point of contact on the amp goes to 2 separate connections on the speaker. One pair of wires for the midrange/tweeter and the other pair for the dual woofers. Another thing: my amp's tone controls are always set to bypass; the audio signal goes straight from the source to the amp, thru the volume control, onto the speakers. That's it. Problem: I cooked my Xovers. This is the 2nd time this has happened in a 5 month period. My woofers work fine for both melt downs but the mids and tweeter are SOL. To verify, I dis-connected the tweeter and tested it individualy to find that it was ok, so I concluded that the problem was the xovers. Anyhow, this is the 2nd time around, so I know For this 2nd go round, just 1 of my speakers cooked the xovers. The other one is fine. But who knows for how long the other one will last given the history. So now I'm at the point that I have to upgrade the speakers. Here's what I'm looking for: Audiophile quality speakers with these specifications: 3 dimensional soundstage, or least speakers with some depth. Able to produce down to 30 Hz, to reach "down below," so to speak. I look at 40 Hz as the breaking point. 40 Hz and higher is the fake bass, whereas anything below is bass you can feel, rock your foundations. These tower IIs introduced me to 30 Hz bass and I never want to go back Economical price tag, in the $1000 to $2000 price range. I've had my eye on the B&W range of speakers but would appreaciate if anyone could point me to other options. Thanks in advance. I am truly hurting, here. How would you feel if 1 of your speakers lost its xover, 5 months after being replaced? Please recommend replacement speakers that will hopefully fill the criteria I mentioned above. Thanks CD --- Rob Tweed Company: M/Gateway Developments Ltd Registered in England: No 3220901 Registered Office: 58 Francis Road,Ashford, Kent TN23 7UR Web-site: http://www.mgateway.com SlipstreamUSA: April 2, Renaissance Hotel, Orlando http://www.OutOfTheSlipstream.com |
|
#29
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
|
|||
|
|||
|
System down: Audiophile urgency
On Tue, 6 May 2008 15:59:41 -0700, Rob Tweed wrote
(in article ): Ah the EMU! Glad you're still liking it Codifus, cos I seem to remember I was originally responsible for you checking it out in the first place. However I started to get worried when you said it was to blame! For those who haven't checked it out, it's definitely worth a look: http://www.emu.com/products/product.asp?product=15185 When I'm not using mine for live recording, it acts as a "digital pre-amp" connected to a Behringer A500 amp. How do you like your A500? I think its a remarkable achievement to have an amp that powerful, be that inexpensive. |
|
#30
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
|
|||
|
|||
|
System down: Audiophile urgency
On 7 May 2008 02:42:47 GMT, Sonnova
wrote: When I'm not using mine for live recording, it acts as a "digital pre-amp" connected to a Behringer A500 amp. How do you like your A500? I think its a remarkable achievement to have an amp that powerful, be that inexpensive. Well it's been a bit of a hit and miss experience with the Behringer to be honest. Within a few days, the first developed an quiet but audible hum (both mechanically emanated from the machine and also through the speakers), so I sent it back. The second developed a dangerously noisy potentiometer that nearly blew my speakers up so it went back. The third one, which I decided to keep, was just like the first: silent to begin with, but now when you turn it on you can hear it humming quietly. My suspicion is that the price of low cost is poor quality control. I decided that for such a ridiculously low price I could live with the hum (it's not really significant compared with all the other noise coming from my computers and domestic hardware anyway!). Ignoring the slight hum, otherwise the sonic quality is excellent - again considering the price it is really quite astonishing. ....and it sure has plenty of power at its disposal. So if you can be prepared to keep sending duff ones back, it's an amp that is definitely worth checking out. Let me put it this way: I have a vintage Quad 404 (Mk1) power amp which is now languishing unused in the corner of my bedroom. I much prefer the sound of the Behringer. How it would compare with one of the big name (and $$$ expensive) amps would be interesting to know. Any ideas why the Behringer should be totally silent to begin with and then begin to hum after a day or so of use? That's something I've found a little difficult to explain. --- Rob Tweed Company: M/Gateway Developments Ltd Registered in England: No 3220901 Registered Office: 58 Francis Road,Ashford, Kent TN23 7UR Web-site: http://www.mgateway.com SlipstreamUSA: April 2, Renaissance Hotel, Orlando http://www.OutOfTheSlipstream.com |
|
#31
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
|
|||
|
|||
|
System down: Audiophile urgency
.....further to my previous posting, I meant to say Quad 405 of course!
On 7 May 2008 02:42:47 GMT, Sonnova wrote: On Tue, 6 May 2008 15:59:41 -0700, Rob Tweed wrote (in article ): Ah the EMU! Glad you're still liking it Codifus, cos I seem to remember I was originally responsible for you checking it out in the first place. However I started to get worried when you said it was to blame! For those who haven't checked it out, it's definitely worth a look: http://www.emu.com/products/product.asp?product=15185 When I'm not using mine for live recording, it acts as a "digital pre-amp" connected to a Behringer A500 amp. How do you like your A500? I think its a remarkable achievement to have an amp that powerful, be that inexpensive. --- Rob Tweed Company: M/Gateway Developments Ltd Registered in England: No 3220901 Registered Office: 58 Francis Road,Ashford, Kent TN23 7UR Web-site: http://www.mgateway.com SlipstreamUSA: April 2, Renaissance Hotel, Orlando http://www.OutOfTheSlipstream.com |
|
#32
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
|
|||
|
|||
|
System down: Audiophile urgency
On May 6, 6:59 pm, Rob Tweed wrote:
Ah the EMU! Glad you're still liking it Codifus, cos I seem to remember I was originally responsible for you checking it out in the first place. However I started to get worried when you said it was to blame! For those who haven't checked it out, it's definitely worth a look:http://www.emu.com/products/product.asp?product=15185 When I'm not using mine for live recording, it acts as a "digital pre-amp" connected to a Behringer A500 amp. Just don't blame me if you wear out the rest of your gear as a result of this little box! :-) On 13 Apr 2008 14:00:19 GMT, Codifus wrote: Hello all, my beloved and economic audiophile system has experienced another breakdown. This is the 2nd one in 4 months. Who is the culprit? The EMU 0404 USB. Do I blame it? No. Not at all. Why? I've been enjoying music so much now with the 0404 USB that there have been periods that I would listen for several hours on end, at or near rated amplifier power, no doubt stressing all components of my system. I was never able to do this before, and I love the way the way the 0404 USB improved the system. My system: Itunes based music server feeding an Apple Airport Express. The Airport Express optically feeds the EMU 0404 USB a 44/16 signal. The 0404USB then feeds its line level output to a Yamaha AX-596 amplifier rated at 100 watts/channel with a healthy abilitty to drive 4 ohms. Speakers? Cambridge Soundworks Tower IIs. Power rating? I'm not sure. Cambridge Soundworks has been very careful to keep the speaker power handling spec, but from obscure data picked up here and there on the web, I gather that they are rated in the 100 to 250 watt/channel range. Anyhow, I have much respect for the late Henry Kloss, founder of Cambridge Soundworks because I can see that he strived to produce very good, audiophile type speakers at an economical cost. I've been an avid fan for quite some time, starting off wiht his ensemble speakers. Weaknesses of the Tower II? Something tells me that when Mr. Kloss built the Tower II speakers, to keep his costs low, he chose a dome tweeter which does have a "hotspot." There are frequencies in which it tends to respond to a little to strongly. A slight annoyance, but not enough to take away the enjoyment of the music. Also, the midrange is not quite flat. There are probably undulations in frequency response here and there. Despite its weaknesses, though, these speakers do not fail to convey the life of the music. Still, for a pair of speakers that relay the beauty of music, the ability to reproduce a frequency range from 30 Hz to 20 Khz in a respectable manner, all for the cost of about $500.00, I am totally in their camp. Mr. Kloss kept his eye on the true prize: presenting music in a natural, realistic manner. Even with the foibles metiontioned previously, these tower IIs can really sing. There would be times I have my amp pumping at rated power and the music just takes me. With the recent addition of the EMU 0404 USB, the music would take me for hours on end. I would just keep going. Songs that come to mind a "Rememberances" from the Schindler's List Soundtrack "Arise, Clay", from the Gods and Monsters Soundtrack "Die Another Day" - Pop star Madonna's theme to the James Bond Movie "Shawshanck Redemption - End title, So was Red" Shawshank redemption movie soundtrack Oh, and by the way, my Yamaha feeds the tower IIs in a bi-wire setup. A single point of contact on the amp goes to 2 separate connections on the speaker. One pair of wires for the midrange/tweeter and the other pair for the dual woofers. Another thing: my amp's tone controls are always set to bypass; the audio signal goes straight from the source to the amp, thru the volume control, onto the speakers. That's it. Problem: I cooked my Xovers. This is the 2nd time this has happened in a 5 month period. My woofers work fine for both melt downs but the mids and tweeter are SOL. To verify, I dis-connected the tweeter and tested it individualy to find that it was ok, so I concluded that the problem was the xovers. Anyhow, this is the 2nd time around, so I know For this 2nd go round, just 1 of my speakers cooked the xovers. The other one is fine. But who knows for how long the other one will last given the history. So now I'm at the point that I have to upgrade the speakers. Here's what I'm looking for: Audiophile quality speakers with these specifications: 3 dimensional soundstage, or least speakers with some depth. Able to produce down to 30 Hz, to reach "down below," so to speak. I look at 40 Hz as the breaking point. 40 Hz and higher is the fake bass, whereas anything below is bass you can feel, rock your foundations. These tower IIs introduced me to 30 Hz bass and I never want to go back Economical price tag, in the $1000 to $2000 price range. I've had my eye on the B&W range of speakers but would appreaciate if anyone could point me to other options. Thanks in advance. I am truly hurting, here. How would you feel if 1 of your speakers lost its xover, 5 months after being replaced? Please recommend replacement speakers that will hopefully fill the criteria I mentioned above. Thanks CD --- Rob Tweed Company: M/Gateway Developments Ltd Registered in England: No 3220901 Registered Office: 58 Francis Road,Ashford, Kent TN23 7UR Web-site:http://www.mgateway.com SlipstreamUSA: April 2, Renaissance Hotel, Orlando http://www.OutOfTheSlipstream.com OK, then it's all your fault  No worries, I am loving that 0404 USB even if it makes me wind up cooking my xovers. So long as my system is singing beautifully. CD |
|
#33
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
|
|||
|
|||
|
System down: Audiophile urgency
On Wed, 7 May 2008 15:32:16 -0700, Rob Tweed wrote
(in article ): On 7 May 2008 02:42:47 GMT, Sonnova wrote: When I'm not using mine for live recording, it acts as a "digital pre-amp" connected to a Behringer A500 amp. How do you like your A500? I think its a remarkable achievement to have an amp that powerful, be that inexpensive. Well it's been a bit of a hit and miss experience with the Behringer to be honest. Within a few days, the first developed an quiet but audible hum (both mechanically emanated from the machine and also through the speakers), so I sent it back. The second developed a dangerously noisy potentiometer that nearly blew my speakers up so it went back. The third one, which I decided to keep, was just like the first: silent to begin with, but now when you turn it on you can hear it humming quietly. My suspicion is that the price of low cost is poor quality control. I decided that for such a ridiculously low price I could live with the hum (it's not really significant compared with all the other noise coming from my computers and domestic hardware anyway!). Ignoring the slight hum, otherwise the sonic quality is excellent - again considering the price it is really quite astonishing. ....and it sure has plenty of power at its disposal. So if you can be prepared to keep sending duff ones back, it's an amp that is definitely worth checking out. Let me put it this way: I have a vintage Quad 404 (Mk1) power amp which is now languishing unused in the corner of my bedroom. I much prefer the sound of the Behringer. How it would compare with one of the big name (and $$$ expensive) amps would be interesting to know. Any ideas why the Behringer should be totally silent to begin with and then begin to hum after a day or so of use? That's something I've found a little difficult to explain. Reason I asked is because the one they sent me has developed distortion in Channel 2 (right). I guess I need to send it back, I suspect that you are correct about the price vs quality control. |
|
#34
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
|
|||
|
|||
|
System down: Audiophile urgency
"Sonnova" wrote in message
... On Tue, 6 May 2008 15:59:41 -0700, Rob Tweed wrote (in article ): Ah the EMU! Glad you're still liking it Codifus, cos I seem to remember I was originally responsible for you checking it out in the first place. However I started to get worried when you said it was to blame! For those who haven't checked it out, it's definitely worth a look: http://www.emu.com/products/product.asp?product=15185 I was wondering about the changes in the price/performance of converter chips that have led to equipment like the EMu 0404 - 110 dB dynamic range for $200. I did a little research and found that converter chips this good now cost less than $3 each in small quantities. The really high-performance chips which have dynamic range just under 130 dB are now about $10. When I'm not using mine for live recording, it acts as a "digital pre-amp" connected to a Behringer A500 amp. How do you like your A500? Mine has been flawless after about a year of intermittant use. I think its a remarkable achievement to have an amp that powerful, be that inexpensive. At just over 100 wpc into 8 ohms, the A500's price/performance pales in comparison to some 100 wpc stereo receivers selling for under $100. |
|
#35
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
|
|||
|
|||
|
System down: Audiophile urgency
On Thu, 8 May 2008 17:05:28 -0700, Arny Krueger wrote
(in article ): "Sonnova" wrote in message ... On Tue, 6 May 2008 15:59:41 -0700, Rob Tweed wrote (in article ): Ah the EMU! Glad you're still liking it Codifus, cos I seem to remember I was originally responsible for you checking it out in the first place. However I started to get worried when you said it was to blame! For those who haven't checked it out, it's definitely worth a look: http://www.emu.com/products/product.asp?product=15185 I was wondering about the changes in the price/performance of converter chips that have led to equipment like the EMu 0404 - 110 dB dynamic range for $200. I did a little research and found that converter chips this good now cost less than $3 each in small quantities. The really high-performance chips which have dynamic range just under 130 dB are now about $10. When I'm not using mine for live recording, it acts as a "digital pre-amp" connected to a Behringer A500 amp. How do you like your A500? Mine has been flawless after about a year of intermittant use. I think its a remarkable achievement to have an amp that powerful, be that inexpensive. At just over 100 wpc into 8 ohms, the A500's price/performance pales in comparison to some 100 wpc stereo receivers selling for under $100. Actually, it's about 165 watts/channel into 8 ohms. |
|
#36
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
|
|||
|
|||
|
System down: Audiophile urgency
On May 8, 8:05 pm, "Arny Krueger" wrote:
........ I was wondering about the changes in the price/performance of converter chips that have led to equipment like the EMu 0404 - 110 dB dynamic range for $200. I did a little research and found that converter chips this good now cost less than $3 each in small quantities. The really high-performance chips which have dynamic range just under 130 dB are now about $10. ....... After owning my EMU 0404 for some time I looked into why it was so good. The 0404's DAC is based on the AKM AK 4396 chip. That chip is also found inside Slim Devices Transporter (what the Squeezebox wants to be when it grows up ) and the Behringer DEQ-24/96. Both are wellregarded audio devices, the Behringer being a bit more in the DIY camp. It's a great bargain that needs a few mods in the opamps area to make it really sing. That little 0404 is in good company. CD |
|
#37
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
|
|||
|
|||
|
System down: Audiophile urgency
"Sonnova" wrote in message
On Thu, 8 May 2008 17:05:28 -0700, Arny Krueger wrote (in article ): At just over 100 wpc into 8 ohms, the A500's price/performance pales in comparison to some 100 wpc stereo receivers selling for under $100. Actually, it's about 165 watts/channel into 8 ohms. Rated power is 160 wpc into 8 ohms, but there is no corresponding distortion specification or frequency range. The distortion specification that is given is not given with a power level or a frquency range. This is not a consumer product, so FTC rules don't apply. Published reports put the 20-20 KHz power output for low distortion in the 125 wpc range. http://theaudiocritic.com/blog/index...leId=20&blogId "The minimum distortion never goes below -72 dB (0.025%), even in the best case, and the clipping levels are approximately 120 watts and 180 watts (generously!) at 8? and 4?." The published reports make a comparison with the QSC USA 400 inviting, since both are pro-grade 120 wpc/8 ohm amplifiers if high-fi levels of distortion are desired. The QSC USA 400 is considerably larger, heavier, and has a far larger power transformer and heat sinks. |
|
#38
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
|
|||
|
|||
|
System down: Audiophile urgency
Codifus wrote:
Arny Krueger wrote: ..... I do miss that Onkyo, though. It was less powerful, but cleaner. At full steam the Yamaha sounds a bit more harsh than the Onkyo ever did. But then, the Onkyo had an overzealous self protection circuit. Once it was what seems like slightly overdriven, that Integra would simply click off. The Yamaha I can drive to absurdly loud levels and it never turns off. Only does an insane overload on the Yamaha force its protecttion circuit to kick in, like a badly corrupted wav file on my computer or something. Here's another thing I wonder: the Yamaha has an impedance matching switch on the back. Switch it to the left when attaching speakers with 4 ohms of impedance. switch to the right for 6 ohms. My Tower IIs are nominally rated at 6 ohms so I left the Yamaha's switch at the 6 ohm setting. Does bi-wiring change the impedance presented to the amplifier in a considerable manner? Once I setup the Tower IIs in a bi-wire setup, should I have flipped the impedance switch to the 4 ohm setting? None of the manuals tell me much in that regard, just how things should be hooked up. Thanks CD By the way I've had my xovers repaired for about a month or so now and I think I found the culprit: the impedance switch. All along I thought it was at the 6 ohm setting when it actually was at the 4 ohm setting. Setting it correctly really changed things. Now, I never even feel the need to push the amp passed 12 o'clock. And, I noticed that I enjoy music more at lower volumes. When I do turn it up, I tend to go to 10:30 or 11 oclock on the dial. And if I do go to 12 o'clock, I am absolutely going mad with the volume I can not go any further. Also, that comparison I made to the Onkyo and concluding that it was much smoother was unfair to the Yamaha. I realised that the Onkyo spent most of its time driving my Ensemble speakers which I based my fond memory on. The Ensembles have a smooth mid-range, but it's a fault because those ensembles also don't have much detail, are less dynamic, and are 2 dimensional. The mid-range in the Tower IIs are much more detailed, have punch/dynamic range, and the music has a 3rd dimension. There's a very pleasant and intoxicating sense of depth with the Tower IIs which makes me never want to go back to the Ensembles. In movie soundtracks, if thunder strikes in the movie, I have to get up and look out of the window to make sure it's not real. Or, if the doorbell or telephone rings in a movie, I have to check myself to know that its in the soundtrack, not real life. I freaking LOVE that about the Tower IIs Conclusion? It looks like I was cooking the xovers in my speakers due to setting the amp to the 4 ohm setting. That setting seemed to reduce the dynamic power capability of the amp which made me turn it up more. By turning it up more the amp spent more of its time producing an average power output that was higher than usual. That higher average power output may have kept my xovers working overtime and finally overheating them to death. In the 6 ohm setting the dynamic capabilty of the amp is restored so the power of the music is greater, but the average time spent delivering high current is lower. Just thought you'd like to know. CD |
| Reply |
| Thread Tools | |
| Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads
|
||||
| Thread | Forum | |||
| Audiophile Quality System for less than 800 dollars | Car Audio | |||
| whats best computer speaker system (audiophile opinion) CreativeItrigue L3800 or Logitech Z-2300 ? | Audio Opinions | |||
| Audiophile sound system in Lincoln Mark LT 2006...where to find specs? | Car Audio | |||
| Ultimate Audiophile Hi-Fi System | Audio Opinions | |||
| Audiophile system w/o spending a slew of money | Car Audio | |||
Linear Mode
