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Value of KLH speakers?



 
 
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  #11  
Old August 28th 10, 01:51 AM posted to rec.audio.tech
Eeyore[_4_]
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Posts: 29
Default Value of KLH speakers?

Bill Graham wrote:
>
> "Eeyore" m> wrote in
> message ...
>> Arny Krueger wrote:
>>>
>>> I hesitate to elevate speakers that were designed to be floor standers.
>>>
>>> The lowest octave response of speakers is designed for aq certain
>>> space that they work into. Some speakers are desgned for what is
>>> known as a half-space, such as on a wall or in the middle of a floor.
>>> Others are designed for a quarter-space such as the middle of a
>>> corner or near a floor or a ceiling. A few speakers are designed for
>>> use in either a full space - suspended in the middle of free space or
>>> an eigth-space which would be in a corner at the floor or the
>>> ceiling. Using a speaker in a space other than the one that it was
>>> properly designed can reasonably be expected to produce incorrect
>>> bass response.

>>
>> You hit the nail on the head, however I doubt that more than a tiny
>> fraction of users understand the 'space' issue, e.g.
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Half_space
>>
>>
>> Graham

>
> I have a friend whose house if full of small speakers about 6 inches in
> diameter....He's got at least two of them in every room. He has one huge
> woofer that's hidden behind and below the TV in his living room.....I
> think it may be bolted to the floor, because you can hear the whole
> house shake if the music contains the lows to do it. It really made me
> re evaluate my own thoughts on speakers....All you really need is one
> good bolted down woofer, and all the other speakers can be small and
> relatively cheap, and you get a fantastic sound system.


Not if you want to hear any stereo content in the bass region.

Graham
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  #12  
Old August 28th 10, 02:21 AM posted to rec.audio.tech
Bill Graham
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Posts: 763
Default Value of KLH speakers?


"Eeyore" m> wrote in message
...
> Bill Graham wrote:
>>
>> "Eeyore" m> wrote in
>> message ...
>>> Arny Krueger wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I hesitate to elevate speakers that were designed to be floor standers.
>>>>
>>>> The lowest octave response of speakers is designed for aq certain space
>>>> that they work into. Some speakers are desgned for what is known as a
>>>> half-space, such as on a wall or in the middle of a floor. Others are
>>>> designed for a quarter-space such as the middle of a corner or near a
>>>> floor or a ceiling. A few speakers are designed for use in either a
>>>> full space - suspended in the middle of free space or an eigth-space
>>>> which would be in a corner at the floor or the ceiling. Using a
>>>> speaker in a space other than the one that it was properly designed can
>>>> reasonably be expected to produce incorrect bass response.
>>>
>>> You hit the nail on the head, however I doubt that more than a tiny
>>> fraction of users understand the 'space' issue, e.g.
>>>
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Half_space
>>>
>>>
>>> Graham

>>
>> I have a friend whose house if full of small speakers about 6 inches in
>> diameter....He's got at least two of them in every room. He has one huge
>> woofer that's hidden behind and below the TV in his living room.....I
>> think it may be bolted to the floor, because you can hear the whole house
>> shake if the music contains the lows to do it. It really made me re
>> evaluate my own thoughts on speakers....All you really need is one good
>> bolted down woofer, and all the other speakers can be small and
>> relatively cheap, and you get a fantastic sound system.

>
> Not if you want to hear any stereo content in the bass region.
>
> Graham


That is, (of course) true, but I don't think there IS much stereo content in
the bass region.....At least, I don't seem to hear any, so if it exists, it
is probably hard to hear.

  #13  
Old August 28th 10, 06:06 PM posted to rec.audio.tech
Michael Black[_2_]
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Posts: 43
Default Value of KLH speakers?

On Fri, 27 Aug 2010, Bill Graham wrote:

> That is, (of course) true, but I don't think there IS much stereo content in
> the bass region.....At least, I don't seem to hear any, so if it exists, it
> is probably hard to hear.
>

It depends on how you define "bass".

The point of subwoofers was to provide that extra low frequency coverage.
You'd have regular speakers, and then for the even lower frequencies, ie
lower than good speakers provide, one subwoofer would handle those
frequencies, and yes, down there it's non-directional.

The concept has been mangled in recent years, with the coming of "computer
speakers" and "surround sound speaker systems". There, at least in the
low range, the small speakers won't give much bass, and the "subwoofer"
is too small to provide extended bass. They are using the "subwoofer"
to cover what normal speakers would provide, normal "bass". And thus
except if you spend lots of money, it ruins the whole concept. I've seen
bigger woofers in "bookshelf" speakers than a lot of those low end
"subwoofers" and the boxes they are in aren't much better.

Michael

  #14  
Old August 28th 10, 08:27 PM posted to rec.audio.tech
David Nebenzahl
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Posts: 237
Default Value of KLH speakers?

On 8/26/2010 5:55 PM Eeyore spake thus:

> David Nebenzahl wrote:
>
>> On 8/22/2010 4:53 AM Arny Krueger spake thus:
>>
>>> They were intended to be floor-standing, check the classic speaker
>>> pages ads:

>>
>> Yes, I know that; it's just that they'd probably sound better off the
>> floor

>
> What makes you think that ?


Intuition.

Granted, I don't have the technical knowledge about audio that you and
others here do, so I'm not looking to start an argument here. It's just
that to me, it seems counterintuitive to place any speaker on the floor
and expect good results. I remember the advice given back in the 70s and
80s: get those speakers off the floor!

It seems to me (again, my untutored intuition) that while low
frequencies would project fine with a woofer placed close to the floor,
anything higher--say, 400 Hz up--would suffer from such placement.

Of course, much depends on many factors: the floor covering, room
geometry, etc., etc. Carpeted floors can't be good for *any* speakers.

I'm certainly willing to be proven wrong here. It just has never seemed
like a good idea to me to put speakers on the floor, and I was frankly
surprised to run across this specimen of KLH speaker which was obviously
designed for that very placement.


--
The fashion in killing has an insouciant, flirty style this spring,
with the flaunting of well-defined muscle, wrapped in flags.

- Comment from an article on Antiwar.com (http://antiwar.com)
  #15  
Old August 29th 10, 01:27 PM posted to rec.audio.tech
Arny Krueger
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Posts: 17,262
Default Value of KLH speakers?

"David Nebenzahl" > wrote in message
.com
> On 8/26/2010 5:55 PM Eeyore spake thus:
>
>> David Nebenzahl wrote:
>>
>>> On 8/22/2010 4:53 AM Arny Krueger spake thus:
>>>
>>>> They were intended to be floor-standing, check the
>>>> classic speaker pages ads:
>>>
>>> Yes, I know that; it's just that they'd probably sound
>>> better off the floor

>>
>> What makes you think that ?

>
> Intuition.
>
> Granted, I don't have the technical knowledge about audio
> that you and others here do, so I'm not looking to start
> an argument here. It's just that to me, it seems
> counterintuitive to place any speaker on the floor and
> expect good results.


To you.

Speakers that are designed to be floor standing should be used that way.

> I remember the advice given back in
> the 70s and 80s: get those speakers off the floor!


That applied to speakers designed for bookshelf installation.

> It seems to me (again, my untutored intuition) that while
> low frequencies would project fine with a woofer placed
> close to the floor, anything higher--say, 400 Hz
> up--would suffer from such placement.


Not suffer, be changed.

> Of course, much depends on many factors: the floor
> covering, room geometry, etc., etc. Carpeted floors can't
> be good for *any* speakers.


Simply not true.

> I'm certainly willing to be proven wrong here. It just
> has never seemed like a good idea to me to put speakers
> on the floor, and I was frankly surprised to run across
> this specimen of KLH speaker which was obviously designed
> for that very placement.


That's the key - speakers need to be designed for specific postitioning, and
end-users need to make that one criteria for acquisition.


  #16  
Old August 29th 10, 10:02 PM posted to rec.audio.tech
David Nebenzahl
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 237
Default Value of KLH speakers?

On 8/29/2010 5:27 AM Arny Krueger spake thus:

> "David Nebenzahl" > wrote in message
> .com
>
>> It seems to me (again, my untutored intuition) that while
>> low frequencies would project fine with a woofer placed
>> close to the floor, anything higher--say, 400 Hz
>> up--would suffer from such placement.

>
> Not suffer, be changed.


So it's possible that mid to high frequencies might be enhanced by floor
placement? Bass I can see.

>> Of course, much depends on many factors: the floor
>> covering, room geometry, etc., etc. Carpeted floors can't
>> be good for *any* speakers.

>
> Simply not true.


Really? Carpet doesn't "eat up" high frequencies?

Although I suppose this could be corrected by simply changing the
tweeter level, assuming the speaker system has such an adjustment.


--
The fashion in killing has an insouciant, flirty style this spring,
with the flaunting of well-defined muscle, wrapped in flags.

- Comment from an article on Antiwar.com (http://antiwar.com)
  #17  
Old August 30th 10, 12:56 PM posted to rec.audio.tech
Arny Krueger
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 17,262
Default Value of KLH speakers?

"David Nebenzahl" > wrote in message
.com
> On 8/29/2010 5:27 AM Arny Krueger spake thus:
>
>> "David Nebenzahl" > wrote in
>> message
>> .com
>>> It seems to me (again, my untutored intuition) that
>>> while low frequencies would project fine with a woofer
>>> placed close to the floor, anything higher--say, 400 Hz
>>> up--would suffer from such placement.

>>
>> Not suffer, be changed.


> So it's possible that mid to high frequencies might be
> enhanced by floor placement? Bass I can see.


It's all about balance. Too much enhancement of either bass or treble is a
bad thing.

Speakers that were designed by competent engineers usually sound best when
they are installed and used as intended.

>>> Of course, much depends on many factors: the floor
>>> covering, room geometry, etc., etc. Carpeted floors
>>> can't be good for *any* speakers.


>> Simply not true.


> Really? Carpet doesn't "eat up" high frequencies?


Again, its about balance. Many speakers are designed with the presumption
that there will be a carpet and it will diminish the high frequencies to a
certain extent. If they are used with carpeting then they sound more
balanced than they will if they are used with bare floors.

> Although I suppose this could be corrected by simply
> changing the tweeter level, assuming the speaker system
> has such an adjustment.


Ever hear of electronic equalizers? You can make some headway along the
lines of restoring balance with them. The alternative is to use speakers as
they were designed to be used.


  #18  
Old August 31st 10, 01:56 AM posted to rec.audio.tech
Randy Yates
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Posts: 839
Default Value of KLH speakers?

"Arny Krueger" > writes:
> [...]
> Speakers that were designed by competent engineers usually sound best when
> they are installed and used as intended.


That's generally good advice. The problem is, there are
several variables in actual installations that may not
match what the engineer intended and which are not easy
to change, a good example being hardwood floors instead
of some assumed carpet.

But this dialog has brought up a thought: why aren't there
(at least some) speakers that adapt to their installation?
I can imagine a wireless sensor being provided with the
speakers that is placed at or near the listening position
and with which the speaker system can measure important
parameters of it's surroundings and attempt to compensate.
--
Randy Yates % "How's life on earth?
Digital Signal Labs % ... What is it worth?"
% 'Mission (A World Record)',
http://www.digitalsignallabs.com % *A New World Record*, ELO
  #19  
Old September 1st 10, 01:42 PM posted to rec.audio.tech
Arny Krueger
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 17,262
Default Value of KLH speakers?

"Randy Yates" > wrote in message

> "Arny Krueger" > writes:
>> [...]
>> Speakers that were designed by competent engineers
>> usually sound best when they are installed and used as
>> intended.

>
> That's generally good advice. The problem is, there are
> several variables in actual installations that may not
> match what the engineer intended and which are not easy
> to change, a good example being hardwood floors instead
> of some assumed carpet.


> But this dialog has brought up a thought: why aren't there
> (at least some) speakers that adapt to their installation?
> I can imagine a wireless sensor being provided with the
> speakers that is placed at or near the listening position
> and with which the speaker system can measure important
> parameters of it's surroundings and attempt to compensate.


There are some speakers that come with that facility. I believe JBL/Infinity
have this. There are also third-party products such as Audessy.

http://www.jblpro.com/catalog/genera...x?PId=28&MId=5

http://www.krksys.com/product_ergo.php

http://www.jblpro.com/press/evo_press_release.htm

http://www.realtraps.com/art_audyssey.htm


  #20  
Old September 2nd 10, 05:30 PM posted to rec.audio.tech
Randy Yates
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 839
Default Value of KLH speakers?

"Arny Krueger" > writes:

> "Randy Yates" > wrote in message
>
>> "Arny Krueger" > writes:
>>> [...]
>>> Speakers that were designed by competent engineers
>>> usually sound best when they are installed and used as
>>> intended.

>>
>> That's generally good advice. The problem is, there are
>> several variables in actual installations that may not
>> match what the engineer intended and which are not easy
>> to change, a good example being hardwood floors instead
>> of some assumed carpet.

>
>> But this dialog has brought up a thought: why aren't there
>> (at least some) speakers that adapt to their installation?
>> I can imagine a wireless sensor being provided with the
>> speakers that is placed at or near the listening position
>> and with which the speaker system can measure important
>> parameters of it's surroundings and attempt to compensate.

>
> There are some speakers that come with that facility. I believe JBL/Infinity
> have this. There are also third-party products such as Audessy.
>
> http://www.jblpro.com/catalog/genera...x?PId=28&MId=5
>
> http://www.krksys.com/product_ergo.php
>
> http://www.jblpro.com/press/evo_press_release.htm
>
> http://www.realtraps.com/art_audyssey.htm


Interesting. Thanks for the links, Arny.
--
Randy Yates % "How's life on earth?
Digital Signal Labs % ... What is it worth?"
% 'Mission (A World Record)',
http://www.digitalsignallabs.com % *A New World Record*, ELO
 




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