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#1
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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Want to design a 3-way speaker with "extreeeem" excursion
Just thought I'd throw this out there - partially to punctuate the
endless Google Groups posts hocking knock-off handbags and Nike merchandise - and to see if this idea might actually go somewhere(!) I'm thinking about a speaker line, both a bookshelf and a floorstanding model. Standard 8-16ohm impedance, current state of art materials, with as low-resonance a cabinet as humanly possible. Speaker would be a sealed unit, capable of handling anywhere from 50-200W. The two key differences a 1. All drivers(2 in the bookshelf and 3 for the floor-standing) would be in the same plane. That is, the mid and hf elements would be set back so as to be "in lne" with the resting position of the woofer. This is not new, and many mfgs have done it for 20 years or more. 2.(the big one!) - The woofer - and the midrange in the case of the floor-standing, would have a range of travel unprecedented for their size. I'm proposing a 6" woofer and 1"dome tweeter for the bookshelf, and a 7"woofer, 3"mid, and same 1"dome tweeter for the floor model. I'm talking about both woofers having at least a 1" high-profile butyl- rubber surround that would allow visible movement even when driven mildly. The midrange might also be visibly moved, especially on tracks with strong transient drums(think early-to-mid era Genesis or just about anything from LZ). Of course an area in which I have no expertise would have to be advanced - and that is dampening. For a speaker like this the cones might end up ringing like a bell! My theory is that small rigid cones with high excursion move as much air as effectively as a huge cone with less excursion and perhaps not as structurally stiff. -CC |
#2
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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Want to design a 3-way speaker with "extreeeem" excursion
ChrisCoaster said...
My theory is that small rigid cones with high excursion move as much air as effectively as a huge cone with less excursion and perhaps not as structurally stiff. It might work at very low frequencies less than 10 hz perhaps. In the normal frequency range, 500hz for example if the cones were to use the full 1 inch travel yet still produce an accurate representation of the waveform presented to them they would have to accelerate and decelerate at values approaching infinity or thereabouts thus implying a cone with no mass would be required. -- Ken O'Meara http://www.btinternet.com/~unsteadyken/ |
#3
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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Want to design a 3-way speaker with "extreeeem" excursion
On Oct 30, 9:39*am, UnsteadyKen wrote:
ChrisCoaster said... My theory is that small rigid cones with high excursion move as much air as effectively as a huge cone with less excursion and perhaps not as structurally stiff. It might work at very low frequencies less than 10 hz perhaps. In the normal frequency range, 500hz for example if the cones were to use the full 1 inch travel yet still produce an accurate representation of the waveform presented to them they would have to accelerate and decelerate at values approaching infinity or thereabouts thus implying a cone with no mass would be required. -- Ken O'Mearahttp://www.btinternet.com/~unsteadyken/ _____________ Of course, I didn't specify that the full 1 inch(or more!) of travel might not be reached until you are achieving at least 70dB spls. I've always believed, growing up, that the speaker that moves more air yields more lifelike results. -CC |
#4
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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Want to design a 3-way speaker with "extreeeem" excursion
Dick Pierce said...
Snipped the most excellent work. Hardly "infinite", hardly "thereabout infinite", and, indeed, not even in the same zip code. Thanks Dick that was most informative and your point is well taken by this bear of little brain. In future I shall use "quite large" One small question. Would it take a similar amount of power to halt the driver as it approaches the end of travel ready for the return journey? It seems to me that more would be required as we now have the mass of the driver plus the velocity imparted by the acceleration? Or have I misunderstood how amplifiers control the drivers? Which is very likely so. -- Ken O'Meara http://www.btinternet.com/~unsteadyken/ |
#5
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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Want to design a 3-way speaker with "extreeeem" excursion
On Oct 30, 7:15*pm, UnsteadyKen wrote:
Dick Pierce said... Snipped the most excellent work. Hardly "infinite", hardly "thereabout infinite", and, indeed, not even in the same zip code. Thanks Dick that was most informative and your point is well taken by this bear of little brain. In future I shall use "quite large" One small question. Would it take a similar amount of power to halt the driver as it approaches the end of travel ready for the return journey? It seems to me that more would be required as we now have the mass of the driver plus the velocity imparted by the acceleration? Or have I misunderstood how amplifiers control the drivers? Which is very likely so. -- Ken O'Mearahttp://www.btinternet.com/~unsteadyken/ ____________________ In general terms, I guess that has to do with both the dampening characteristics of the speaker material itself, and the dampening(electrical) function of the amp. The latter would have to be explained in kindergarten terms for me, at least. Dick Pierce? -CC |
#6
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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Want to design a 3-way speaker with "extreeeem" excursion
ChrisCoaster wrote:
The two key differences a 1. All drivers(2 in the bookshelf and 3 for the floor-standing) would be in the same plane. That is, the mid and hf elements would be set back so as to be "in lne" with the resting position of the woofer. This is not new, and many mfgs have done it for 20 years or more. And lo and behold, it actually is a poorer design than having them all integrated in the same flat surface because of the additional diffraction edges and the strange multivariable baffle diffraction steps you end up with. 2.(the big one!) - The woofer - and the midrange in the case of the floor-standing, would have a range of travel unprecedented for their size. Dick said a lot of what can be said. However look at the "known good" loudspeakers, those are in my experience characterized by minimizing the excursion via a large effient area. This because it is easier to get a suspension quasi linear within a small range than within a large range. I'm proposing a 6" woofer and 1"dome tweeter for the bookshelf, and a 7"woofer, 3"mid, and same 1"dome tweeter for the floor model. Bass unit size in itself needs to be seen in the context of box size, intended bandwidth and obtainable efficiency. I'm talking about both woofers having at least a 1" high-profile butyl- rubber surround that would allow visible movement even when driven mildly. It is all about displacement volume. The midrange might also be visibly moved, especially on tracks with strong transient drums(think early-to-mid era Genesis or just about anything from LZ). Depends on what you call midrange. Of course an area in which I have no expertise would have to be advanced - and that is dampening. For a speaker like this the cones might end up ringing like a bell! Your vision of a loudspeaker cone is too simple, rigid cones are generally more of a problem than of a solution because of exactly that problem. You do not get a good directional diagram without the cone decoupling its outer area when reproducing high frequencies, whatever that is in the context of its working range. If you insist on using loudspeaker units only in their piston range you end up with a 10 way system, ie. with 9 crossover-points you need to get "just rightų". My theory is that small rigid cones with high excursion move as much air as effectively as a huge cone with less excursion and perhaps not as structurally stiff. Yes, that is a good "volume displacement" understanding, but a small cone with little or hardly any excursion coupled via a horn has both advantages, and then quite a few other problems. It is always a matter of multiple tradeoff, and the art of the designer is where to place them. The perfect loudspeaker has zero area, since area is problematic, and zero excursion since excursion is problematic, but with excursion and area both approaching zero the sound output does likewise. -CC Kind regards Peter Larsen |
#7
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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Want to design a 3-way speaker with "extreeeem" excursion
Dick Pierce said...
You wouldn't be the first. And you'd be in the same league as many loudspeaker "designers." Thank you Dick. It is kind of you to take the trouble to answer these daft questions. -- Ken O'Meara http://www.btinternet.com/~unsteadyken/ |
#8
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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Want to design a 3-way speaker with "extreeeem" excursion
"UnsteadyKen" wrote in message m... Dick Pierce said... You wouldn't be the first. And you'd be in the same league as many loudspeaker "designers." Thank you Dick. It is kind of you to take the trouble to answer these daft questions. He may have to use one of your speakers in the future....:^) |
#9
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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Want to design a 3-way speaker with "extreeeem" excursion
On 10/30/2010 6:20 AM ChrisCoaster spake thus:
Just thought I'd throw this out there - partially to punctuate the endless Google Groups posts hocking knock-off handbags and Nike merchandise - and to see if this idea might actually go somewhere(!) I'm thinking about a speaker line, both a bookshelf and a floorstanding model. Standard 8-16ohm impedance, current state of art materials, with as low-resonance a cabinet as humanly possible. Speaker would be a sealed unit, capable of handling anywhere from 50-200W. The two key differences a 1. All drivers(2 in the bookshelf and 3 for the floor-standing) would be in the same plane. That is, the mid and hf elements would be set back so as to be "in lne" with the resting position of the woofer. This is not new, and many mfgs have done it for 20 years or more. 2.(the big one!) - The woofer - and the midrange in the case of the floor-standing, would have a range of travel unprecedented for their size. Heh; this reminds me of my own thinking as a kid fooling around with building speakers[1] and thinking of how to make the "ultimate woofer". So as absurd as this proposal seems to have been, it raises some interesting questions (non-absurd, I trust). In particular, if one were to try to design such an "ultimate woofer", what would be the main limiting factors to powerful low-frequency response? 1. Cone size (area) 2. Cone compliance (maximum excursion) 3. Motor strength (voice coil size, power capacity, magnet size) 4. Cabinet size & shape 5. Other (Hopefully Dick Pierce might be interested enough to answer this.) [1] My first was an acoustic-suspension bookshelf system, built to plans in Popular Electronics. I remember getting the 6" woofers, really cheap, from McGee Radio in Kansas City. They're long gone, of course; anyone else remember this company? They had an amazing selection of raw speakers and all kinds of other electronic stuff. -- The fashion in killing has an insouciant, flirty style this spring, with the flaunting of well-defined muscle, wrapped in flags. - Comment from an article on Antiwar.com (http://antiwar.com) |
#10
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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Want to design a 3-way speaker with "extreeeem" excursion
"ChrisCoaster" wrote in message
I'm thinking about a speaker line, both a bookshelf and a floorstanding model. Standard 8-16ohm impedance, current state of art materials, with as low-resonance a cabinet as humanly possible. Speaker would be a sealed unit, capable of handling anywhere from 50-200W. Check the Paradigm catalog for suitable alternatives. The two key differences a 1. All drivers(2 in the bookshelf and 3 for the floor-standing) would be in the same plane. Which same plane? Are you talking about the plane that the speaker driver chassis are mounted on or the plane of the acoustic centers? 2.(the big one!) - The woofer - and the midrange in the case of the floor-standing, would have a range of travel unprecedented for their size. If their travel is unprecidented, then it never ever existed. At this point drivers are available with excursions that exceed any possible practical need at home. IOW you are asking for something that not only has never been done, but also serves no practical purpose. I'm proposing a 6" woofer and 1"dome tweeter for the bookshelf, and a 7"woofer, 3"mid, and same 1"dome tweeter for the floor model. Why does the floor-stander need to be 3-way? I'm talking about both woofers having at least a 1" high-profile butyl- rubber surround that would allow visible movement even when driven mildly. If there is visible movement when the speaker is driven mildly, it would appear to me that there is likely some design fault. Well designed speakers move their cones as little as possible consistent with undistored output. The midrange might also be visibly moved, especially on tracks with strong transient drums(think early-to-mid era Genesis or just about anything from LZ). This is a rediculous cosmetic-only requirement. Of course an area in which I have no expertise would have to be advanced - and that is dampening. For a speaker like this the cones might end up ringing like a bell! The operative phrase would appear to be "no expertise". A knowlegable person would simply not ask for what you are demanding. My theory is that small rigid cones with high excursion move as much air as effectively as a huge cone with less excursion and perhaps not as structurally stiff. Structural stiffness as perceived by you would appear to be yet another ill-advised cosmetic requirement. |
#11
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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Want to design a 3-way speaker with "extreeeem" excursion
On 11/1/2010 12:17 PM ChrisCoaster spake thus:
On Nov 1, 7:52 am, "Arny Krueger" wrote: "ChrisCoaster" wrote in message I'm thinking about a speaker line, both a bookshelf and a floorstanding model. Standard 8-16ohm impedance, current state of art materials, with as low-resonance a cabinet as humanly possible. Speaker would be a sealed unit, capable of handling anywhere from 50-200W. The midrange might also be visibly moved, especially on tracks with strong transient drums(think early-to-mid era Genesis or just about anything from LZ). This is a rediculous cosmetic-only requirement. [snip] Sigh...Why couldn't everyone be more like Dick Pierce?(a little heavy on the math, but otherwise takes time to lay it out in plain terms) Arny is what I'd call a sourpuss. Very knowledgable, yes, but then, so is Dick Pierce, who was kind enough to indulge quite a bit of ignorance here (including my own) in a civil way. If you can't discuss things on their lofty level, folks like Arny just turn up their noses at you. Once you're aware of this it ceases to be a problem. -- The fashion in killing has an insouciant, flirty style this spring, with the flaunting of well-defined muscle, wrapped in flags. - Comment from an article on Antiwar.com (http://antiwar.com) |
#12
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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Want to design a 3-way speaker with "extreeeem" excursion
"David Nebenzahl" wrote in message
.com On 11/1/2010 12:17 PM ChrisCoaster spake thus: On Nov 1, 7:52 am, "Arny Krueger" wrote: "ChrisCoaster" wrote in message I'm thinking about a speaker line, both a bookshelf and a floorstanding model. Standard 8-16ohm impedance, current state of art materials, with as low-resonance a cabinet as humanly possible. Speaker would be a sealed unit, capable of handling anywhere from 50-200W. The midrange might also be visibly moved, especially on tracks with strong transient drums(think early-to-mid era Genesis or just about anything from LZ). This is a rediculous cosmetic-only requirement. [snip] Sigh...Why couldn't everyone be more like Dick Pierce?(a little heavy on the math, but otherwise takes time to lay it out in plain terms) Math is by definition *Not* "plain terms". Arny is what I'd call a sourpuss. Nahh, just being very blunt because it seems to be requried to penetrate all of the fuzzy thinking. Very knowledgable, yes, but then, so is Dick Pierce, who was kind enough to indulge quite a bit of ignorance here (including my own) in a civil way. If you can't discuss things on their lofty level, folks like Arny just turn up their noses at you. Actually Chris, it is you who are turning your nose up at me. Once you're aware of this it ceases to be a problem. If it wasn't a problem, you wouldn't be libelling me this way. Just another case of a good deed failing to go unpunished. ;-) |
#13
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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Want to design a 3-way speaker with "extreeeem" excursion
"Arny Krueger" wrote in message ... "David Nebenzahl" wrote in message .com On 11/1/2010 12:17 PM ChrisCoaster spake thus: On Nov 1, 7:52 am, "Arny Krueger" wrote: "ChrisCoaster" wrote in message I'm thinking about a speaker line, both a bookshelf and a floorstanding model. Standard 8-16ohm impedance, current state of art materials, with as low-resonance a cabinet as humanly possible. Speaker would be a sealed unit, capable of handling anywhere from 50-200W. The midrange might also be visibly moved, especially on tracks with strong transient drums(think early-to-mid era Genesis or just about anything from LZ). This is a rediculous cosmetic-only requirement. [snip] Sigh...Why couldn't everyone be more like Dick Pierce?(a little heavy on the math, but otherwise takes time to lay it out in plain terms) Math is by definition *Not* "plain terms". On the contrary. Math is by definition the only "plain term". that's exactly why I majored in it. It's called "quantitative", (rather than qualitative.) And, it tells the true story every time. Have you ever tried buying a box or leather case for some item you have, like a tape measure, or a pocket knife? You can Google up a dozen of them, and the dimensions won't be on any one of them. I call it "dimentionphobia", or the dumbing down of America. |
#14
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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Want to design a 3-way speaker with "extreeeem" excursion
On 11/2/2010 4:29 AM Arny Krueger spake thus:
"David Nebenzahl" wrote in message .com Very knowledgable, yes, but then, so is Dick Pierce, who was kind enough to indulge quite a bit of ignorance here (including my own) in a civil way. If you can't discuss things on their lofty level, folks like Arny just turn up their noses at you. Actually Chris, it is you who are turning your nose up at me. You replied to me, yet you called me Chris. I think you have a slight attribution problem there. -- The fashion in killing has an insouciant, flirty style this spring, with the flaunting of well-defined muscle, wrapped in flags. - Comment from an article on Antiwar.com (http://antiwar.com) |
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