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#1
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The $5 preamp Urban Legend
Great read in the June "Recording" magazine (page 72).
Kudos to Paul J. Stamler. Poly |
#2
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The $5 preamp Urban Legend
On May 30, 10:08*am, "polymod" wrote:
Great read in the June "Recording" magazine (page 72). Kudos to Paul J. Stamler. Thanks for the good words. Peace, Paul |
#3
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The $5 preamp Urban Legend
Hi Paul,
I don't have a subscription to Recording. Would it be possible for you to tell me the focus of the article? The title "The $5 preamp Urban Legend" doesn't help me much, other than to tell me it has something to do with preamps. Thanks, Dean On May 30, 12:07*pm, PStamler wrote: On May 30, 10:08*am, "polymod" wrote: Great read in the June "Recording" magazine (page 72). Kudos to Paul J. Stamler. Thanks for the good words. Peace, Paul |
#4
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The $5 preamp Urban Legend
drichard wrote:
I don't have a subscription to Recording. Would it be possible for you to tell me the focus of the article? The title "The $5 preamp Urban Legend" doesn't help me much, other than to tell me it has something to do with preamps. In the article, Paul describes the other costs involved in making a $5 IC into a serviceable box that has a mic input on one side and a line output on the other - connectors, box, power supply, pots, switches, transformers, and other miscellaneous components. It all comes out to be a bit over $500 as he analyzed it, and he did his usual excellent job of putting on the hat of a designer and manufacturer and looking at all the little things that people who say "it's a simple construction project" don't talk about. -- "Today's production equipment is IT based and cannot be operated without a passing knowledge of computing, although it seems that it can be operated without a passing knowledge of audio." - John Watkinson |
#5
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The $5 preamp Urban Legend
On Sun, 30 May 2010 23:29:02 -0400, Mike Rivers wrote
(in article ): drichard wrote: I don't have a subscription to Recording. Would it be possible for you to tell me the focus of the article? The title "The $5 preamp Urban Legend" doesn't help me much, other than to tell me it has something to do with preamps. In the article, Paul describes the other costs involved in making a $5 IC into a serviceable box that has a mic input on one side and a line output on the other - connectors, box, power supply, pots, switches, transformers, and other miscellaneous components. It all comes out to be a bit over $500 as he analyzed it, and he did his usual excellent job of putting on the hat of a designer and manufacturer and looking at all the little things that people who say "it's a simple construction project" don't talk about. Ah, so it isn't really a $5 preamp? The laurels of the RMP are preserved? Regards, Ty Ford --Audio Equipment Reviews Audio Production Services Acting and Voiceover Demos http://www.tyford.com Guitar player?:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWaPRHMGhGA |
#6
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The $5 preamp Urban Legend
On May 31, 8:19*am, Ty Ford wrote:
Ah, so it isn't really a $5 preamp? Well, that's why it's called an "Urban Legend" : ) |
#7
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The $5 preamp Urban Legend
"Mike Rivers" wrote in message
drichard wrote: I don't have a subscription to Recording. Would it be possible for you to tell me the focus of the article? The title "The $5 preamp Urban Legend" doesn't help me much, other than to tell me it has something to do with preamps. In the article, Paul describes the other costs involved in making a $5 IC into a serviceable box that has a mic input on one side and a line output on the other - connectors, box, power supply, pots, switches, transformers, and other miscellaneous components. It all comes out to be a bit over $500 as he analyzed it, and he did his usual excellent job of putting on the hat of a designer and manufacturer and looking at all the little things that people who say "it's a simple construction project" don't talk about. It's pretty incredible that some people do manage to build a servicable preamp with all those things; connectors, box, power supply, switches and other miscellaneous components for more like $50 than $500. I'm specifically thinking of the Rolls MP13. Just about *everybody* can build a fairly servicable mixer with from 8 to 16 mic inputs for $500. |
#8
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The $5 preamp Urban Legend
On May 31, 8:52*pm, "Arny Krueger" wrote:
"Mike Rivers" wrote in message drichard wrote: I don't have a subscription to Recording. Would it be possible for you to tell me the focus of the article? The title "The $5 preamp Urban Legend" doesn't help me much, other than to tell me it has something to do with preamps. In the article, Paul describes the other costs involved in making a $5 IC into a serviceable box that has a mic input on one side and a line output on the other - connectors, box, power supply, pots, switches, transformers, and other miscellaneous components. It all comes out to be a bit over $500 as he analyzed it, and he did his usual excellent job of putting on the hat of a designer and manufacturer and looking at all the little things that people who say "it's a simple construction project" don't talk about. It's pretty incredible that some people do manage to build a servicable preamp with all those things; connectors, box, power supply, switches and other miscellaneous components for more like $50 than $500. I'm specifically thinking *of the Rolls MP13. Just about *everybody* can build a fairly servicable mixer with from 8 to 16 mic inputs for $500. Well, a *usable* mixer. *Servicable* is the thing it's not -- and it's not likely to last more than a couple of years. Peace, Paul |
#9
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The $5 preamp Urban Legend
Arny Krueger wrote:
It's pretty incredible that some people do manage to build a servicable preamp with all those things; connectors, box, power supply, switches and other miscellaneous components for more like $50 than $500. I'm specifically thinking of the Rolls MP13. Sure - no transformers (or worse, crummy transformers), wall wart power, and most important, mass production. You can buy a preamp-sized case with no holes in it for $10-15 and hack it out, but if you make a drawing and send it to a sheet metal shop for punching (for neat, round holes exactly where you want them) it'll cost $50 just for that. The manufacturer who turns out $50 preamps by the thousands gets the same case made in China for about a dollar. -- "Today's production equipment is IT based and cannot be operated without a passing knowledge of computing, although it seems that it can be operated without a passing knowledge of audio." - John Watkinson |
#10
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The $5 preamp Urban Legend
"PStamler" wrote in message
On May 31, 8:52 pm, "Arny Krueger" wrote: "Mike Rivers" wrote in message drichard wrote: I don't have a subscription to Recording. Would it be possible for you to tell me the focus of the article? The title "The $5 preamp Urban Legend" doesn't help me much, other than to tell me it has something to do with preamps. In the article, Paul describes the other costs involved in making a $5 IC into a serviceable box that has a mic input on one side and a line output on the other - connectors, box, power supply, pots, switches, transformers, and other miscellaneous components. It all comes out to be a bit over $500 as he analyzed it, and he did his usual excellent job of putting on the hat of a designer and manufacturer and looking at all the little things that people who say "it's a simple construction project" don't talk about. It's pretty incredible that some people do manage to build a servicable preamp with all those things; connectors, box, power supply, switches and other miscellaneous components for more like $50 than $500. I'm specifically thinking of the Rolls MP13. Just about *everybody* can build a fairly servicable mixer with from 8 to 16 mic inputs for $500. Well, a *usable* mixer. *Servicable* is the thing it's not -- and it's not likely to last more than a couple of years. I know that some people are afraid of low cost audio products, but those of us who have to live in that world know that it is not nearly as bad as some make it out to be. $500 a channel is a very salty number to beat. If you want to believe that you have to spend that kind of money to avoid products that only last a couple of years, well it's your money. If you want to give that as your final answer on a public forum, then you may have to contend with a ton of people who know better from practical experience. I think my MP13 is about 5 years old and keeps on working, its knock-about life not withstanding. My SX202 @$125 per channel may have been almost a decade old when I picked it up on EBay, and that had to be 6-7 years ago. It still works and it is about as servicable as they come. There's no doubt that you can pay too little for audio gear, but diminishing returns is a very strong rule. |
#11
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The $5 preamp Urban Legend
"Mike Rivers" wrote in message
Arny Krueger wrote: It's pretty incredible that some people do manage to build a servicable preamp with all those things; connectors, box, power supply, switches and other miscellaneous components for more like $50 than $500. I'm specifically thinking of the Rolls MP13. Sure - no transformers (or worse, crummy transformers), No transformers. In my world that's good news at any price. wall wart power, You can easily spend ca. $500 and still have a wall wart. and most important, mass production. When you sell for that much less, finding the prerequisite mass market is far easier. Remember, the OP was mic preamps whose basic active component is a $5 mic preamp chip. That leaves out top-of-the-line products in the dust. They are OT and typically heavily discrete. Also, the SOTA $5 mic preamp chip of 2010 is a pretty heavy dude! You can buy a preamp-sized case with no holes in it for $10-15 and hack it out, but if you make a drawing and send it to a sheet metal shop for punching (for neat, round holes exactly where you want them) it'll cost $50 just for that. If the topic is why you don't want to do it yourself, then I'm into that. I've home-brewed a ton of audio gear starting when I was about 11. Most were my designs as well. I've received the *ultimate* complement for some of my audio projects - other professionals borrowed some of them and used them for a decade or so before giving them back! ;-) I've also personally designed and built more items and more dollar value in electronics gear than just about anybody you know, but that reaches outside of audio. That all said, the first question anybody should answer is "Where do I get a good commercial product that does that?". The manufacturer who turns out $50 preamps by the thousands gets the same case made in China for about a dollar. And that is life in the big city. ;-) |
#12
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The $5 preamp Urban Legend
On Jun 1, 7:06*am, "Arny Krueger" wrote:
"PStamler" wrote in message On May 31, 8:52 pm, "Arny Krueger" wrote: "Mike Rivers" wrote in message drichard wrote: I don't have a subscription to Recording. Would it be possible for you to tell me the focus of the article? The title "The $5 preamp Urban Legend" doesn't help me much, other than to tell me it has something to do with preamps. In the article, Paul describes the other costs involved in making a $5 IC into a serviceable box that has a mic input on one side and a line output on the other - connectors, box, power supply, pots, switches, transformers, and other miscellaneous components. It all comes out to be a bit over $500 as he analyzed it, and he did his usual excellent job of putting on the hat of a designer and manufacturer and looking at all the little things that people who say "it's a simple construction project" don't talk about. It's pretty incredible that some people do manage to build a servicable preamp with all those things; connectors, box, power supply, switches and other miscellaneous components for more like $50 than $500. I'm specifically thinking of the Rolls MP13. Just about *everybody* can build a fairly servicable mixer with from 8 to 16 mic inputs for $500. Well, a *usable* mixer. *Servicable* is the thing it's not -- and it's not likely to last more than a couple of years. I know that some people are afraid of low cost audio products, but those of us who have to live in that world know that it is not nearly as bad as some make it out to be. $500 a channel is a very salty number to beat. If you want to believe that you have to spend that kind of money to avoid products that only last a couple of years, well it's your money. If you want to give that as your final answer on a public forum, then you may have to contend with a ton of people who know better from practical experience. As he often does, Arny shifts the goal posts with every sentence. I said that for $500 a mixer would be usable but not serviceable -- which is true of all the cheap mixers; the labor costs for disassembly alone end up being more than the mixer is worth. So Arny shifts gears to talking about stuff that's $500 per channel. Which is a whole 'nother ballgame. I think my MP13 is about 5 years old and keeps on working, its knock-about life not withstanding. *My SX202 @$125 per channel may have been almost a decade old when I picked it up on EBay, and that had to be 6-7 years ago. It still works and it is about as servicable as they come. Uh-huh. It's not $50 per channel, which is what we were originally talking about. And Arny knows that. There are very few products made like the SX202 anymore, and none for $50 or $100. The only way you can make a preamp to sell for $50 is (a) 100% automated board assembly, which practically speaking means all surface-mount technology, which means repair by replacing components is economically unfeasible; (b) very, *very* cheap pots and switches, which will be noisy in a year or two, depending on where you live and how often you use the box. Peace, Paul |
#13
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The $5 preamp Urban Legend
Arny Krueger wrote:
I know that some people are afraid of low cost audio products, but those of us who have to live in that world know that it is not nearly as bad as some make it out to be. $500 a channel is a very salty number to beat. You need a good sense of who wrote the article. Several years back, Paul wrote about the $50 mic preamp, referring to a Mackie mixer, and according to him (and just about everybody else) it was darn good. He also wrote a DIY article in three parts for a mic preamp that cost about $2,000 in parts. He knows both ends of the scale, and I thought he treated the "$5 mic preamp" pretty fairly. Whether you're a do-it-yourselfer or a manufacturer, you can always take shortcuts to make something cheaper. One of the best ways is to not pay professional rates for hand labor, either free building it yourself or investing heavily in industrial design and having it built in China for a few bucks an hour. You can get a bargain in something second hand that hasn't hit the vintage market yet, or you can roll your own and have something that nobody else has. . -- "Today's production equipment is IT based and cannot be operated without a passing knowledge of computing, although it seems that it can be operated without a passing knowledge of audio." - John Watkinson |
#14
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The $5 preamp Urban Legend
"PStamler" wrote in message
On Jun 1, 7:06 am, "Arny Krueger" wrote: "PStamler" wrote in message On May 31, 8:52 pm, "Arny Krueger" wrote: "Mike Rivers" wrote in message drichard wrote: I don't have a subscription to Recording. Would it be possible for you to tell me the focus of the article? The title "The $5 preamp Urban Legend" doesn't help me much, other than to tell me it has something to do with preamps. In the article, Paul describes the other costs involved in making a $5 IC into a serviceable box that has a mic input on one side and a line output on the other - connectors, box, power supply, pots, switches, transformers, and other miscellaneous components. It all comes out to be a bit over $500 as he analyzed it, and he did his usual excellent job of putting on the hat of a designer and manufacturer and looking at all the little things that people who say "it's a simple construction project" don't talk about. It's pretty incredible that some people do manage to build a servicable preamp with all those things; connectors, box, power supply, switches and other miscellaneous components for more like $50 than $500. I'm specifically thinking of the Rolls MP13. Just about *everybody* can build a fairly servicable mixer with from 8 to 16 mic inputs for $500. Well, a *usable* mixer. *Servicable* is the thing it's not -- and it's not likely to last more than a couple of years. I know that some people are afraid of low cost audio products, but those of us who have to live in that world know that it is not nearly as bad as some make it out to be. $500 a channel is a very salty number to beat. If you want to believe that you have to spend that kind of money to avoid products that only last a couple of years, well it's your money. If you want to give that as your final answer on a public forum, then you may have to contend with a ton of people who know better from practical experience. As he often does, Arny shifts the goal posts with every sentence. As Pual often does, he is ignorant of his own shifty games. I said that for $500 a mixer would be usable but not serviceable -- which is true of all the cheap mixers; the labor costs for disassembly alone end up being more than the mixer is worth. I did a little checking around and failed to find even one pro audio shop that wanted $500 to do an inspection of a $500 mixer. I've taken a few of them apart myself, and it isn't rocket science. I could see where someone who didn't want to deal with that class of customer or product might intentionally price themselves out of the particular marketplace, but that's an administrative choice, not a technical necessity. So Arny shifts gears to talking about stuff that's $500 per channel. Which is a whole 'nother ballgame. No matter what libelous false claims you want to make Paul, I didn't invent the $500 number. It appears that you have forgotten how to read because the name of the person who introduced the $500 number is near the top of this post. Look for the following sentence: " It all comes out to be a bit over $500 as he (Paul Stamler) analyzed it..." Paul, since your literacy module seems to have gone missing, I'll spell it out for you - the author of the $500 number is not me but rather is one Mike Rivers, the date was 5/30/2010 and the time was 11:29 PM EDT. In short Paul, you owe me a public apology. I'm not holding my breath! I think my MP13 is about 5 years old and keeps on working, its knock-about life not withstanding. My SX202 @$125 per channel may have been almost a decade old when I picked it up on EBay, and that had to be 6-7 years ago. It still works and it is about as servicable as they come. Uh-huh. It's not $50 per channel, which is what we were originally talking about. No Paul, it was Mike Rivers talking about $5 chips and $500 total cost. The $50 number was chosen by me, who in a fit of diabolical dishonesty noticed that $50 was exactly one order of magnitude *more* than $5 and one order of magnitude *less* than $500. Again, neither the $5 nor the $500 was orginated by me. The $5 title came from your magzine article, and the $500 number was estmated from your article by one Mike Rivers. And Arny knows that. There are very few products made like the SX202 anymore, and none for $50 or $100. Regrettably, I loaned my SX 202 to a friend so that he could do some speaker testing with some ECM 8000s. Otherwise I would take a look inside and see whether I would find SMT parts and thus have the opportunity to have a hearty laugh at your expense, Paul. ;-) I've looked inside in the past, but I don't remember too many details as I've looked inside many a mic preamp box since then. The only way you can make a preamp to sell for $50 is (a) 100% automated board assembly, which practically speaking means all surface-mount technology, which means repair by replacing components is economically unfeasible; So here we see a repeat of the urban myth that SMT parts are totally non-replacable. Paul, can't you do better than that? Many of us know better! (b) very, *very* cheap pots Interesting that you mention cheap pots, as a friend's SX 202 ended up needing a pot replacement. I don't know what got repaired in mine as I bought it used. However, it appears to me that the tapers of the two channel gain pots of both of our SX 202s may differ from the one for the other channel. Some of us have learned that low prices don't guarantee disaster, and higher prices don't guarantee more freedom from disaster. ...pots and switches, which will be noisy in a year or two, depending on where you live and how often you use the box. I've got a pair of ADA 8000s that are now over 4 years old and are used several times a week. If memory serves, 8 pots per box. Not a noisy pot in the lot. This would be 8 mic preamps per box with an average street price of $240 or about $30 each... |
#15
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The $5 preamp Urban Legend
Arny Krueger wrote:
I did a little checking around and failed to find even one pro audio shop that wanted $500 to do an inspection of a $500 mixer. There's lots of things you can't find on the Internet. Who would even ask such a question? A shop would probably quote something like $75 (minimum shop rate) to take a look and give an estimate for repair. I doubt that anyone who got a quote of more than $200 would leave it for repair, but rather, would sell it on eBay ("worked fine last year") and buy a new and probaby better mixer for a little more than the cost of repair. Just the other day, I heard from someone who got a quote from a shop with a good reputation of $200 minimum for repairing his Mackie hard disk recorder, and that was without even looking at it. And an HDR24/96 is a whole lot easier to work on than, say, a Mackie VLZ series mixer. I've taken a few of them apart myself, and it isn't rocket science. I could see where someone who didn't want to deal with that class of customer or product might intentionally price themselves out of the particular marketplace, but that's an administrative choice, not a technical necessity. But it's still a problem - if you don't tackle the job yourself, you either pay the price or walk away. Still, $85/hour is not an unreasonable rate these days. Given that to get to certain components in many inexpensive one-board mixers it's necessary to take the whole thing apart, just getting to both sides of the circuit board and putting it back together again can easily take an hour if you know where all the hidden screws and nuts are. And then if you need to do any troubleshooting, you have to cobble up a way to power it up and connect signals to it. If everything connects to the board with ribbon cables, either you have to prop things up so you can plug in the cables dangling from the chassis or you need a test fixture. That's something that a shop that does a lot of work on a particular product line might have built, but they have to pay for that labor out of repairs to that product. Honestly, other than replacing a fuse, I can't see any repair on a "non-fixable" mixer costing less than about $150. Paul, since your literacy module seems to have gone missing, I'll spell it out for you - the author of the $500 number is not me but rather is one Mike Rivers, the date was 5/30/2010 and the time was 11:29 PM EDT. In short Paul, you owe me a public apology. I'm not holding my breath! Don't get me and my feeble memory into the middle of this. Get the magazine and read the article yourself. So here we see a repeat of the urban myth that SMT parts are totally non-replacable. Paul, can't you do better than that? Many of us know better! Surface mounted parts are certainly replaceable. Capacitors and resistors are pretty easy to replace if you can find them, identify them, and purchase the replacement part. A sample kit from ChipQuik and a low wattage soldering iron with a small tip will handle the job, and most people who have a reasonable amount of repair experience can do it the first time without causing any further damage. Replacing ICs with close to 100 connections is a little more difficult, however, and takes skill, experience, and in many cases, special equipment. A shop that fixes hard-wired guitar amplifiers isn't equipped to do that. I've got a pair of ADA 8000s that are now over 4 years old and are used several times a week. If memory serves, 8 pots per box. Not a noisy pot in the lot. This would be 8 mic preamps per box with an average street price of $240 or about $30 each... I've had a Soundcraft 600 console for nearly 25 years. Nearly every pot, switch, and fader is noisy. It cost $7600 and has 24 mic input channels. Those are $316.67 preamps (inflate that money if you dare). There's no way I'm going to replace as many parts as needed to make it like new again. A 16-channel Mackie Onyx costs about as much as four channels, and sounds better. -- "Today's production equipment is IT based and cannot be operated without a passing knowledge of computing, although it seems that it can be operated without a passing knowledge of audio." - John Watkinson |
#16
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The $5 preamp Urban Legend
Arny has descended to the level of personal attack again. Not worth
the energy to reply. Peace, Paul |
#17
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The $5 preamp Urban Legend
"Arny Krueger" wrote in message ... "PStamler" wrote in message I said that for $500 a mixer would be usable but not serviceable -- which is true of all the cheap mixers; the labor costs for disassembly alone end up being more than the mixer is worth. I did a little checking around and failed to find even one pro audio shop that wanted $500 to do an inspection of a $500 mixer. You also failed to realize that by the time a $500 mixer gets to a repair shop its actual value has dropped significantly, which makes Paul's observation valid. I've taken a few of them apart myself, and it isn't rocket science. I could see where someone who didn't want to deal with that class of customer or product might intentionally price themselves out of the particular marketplace, but that's an administrative choice, not a technical necessity. Or maybe they have done enough of it to properly assess the costs and risks involved. Predrag |
#18
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The $5 preamp Urban Legend
"Arny Krueger" wrote in message ... I've home-brewed a ton of audio gear starting when I was about 11. Most were my designs as well. I've received the *ultimate* complement for some of my audio projects - other professionals borrowed some of them and used them for a decade or so before giving them back! ;-) I've also personally designed and built more items and more dollar value in electronics gear than just about anybody you know, but that reaches outside of audio. Not to mention thousands of professional recording gigs... |
#19
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The $5 preamp Urban Legend
Predrag Trpkov wrote:
"Arny Krueger" wrote in message ... I've home-brewed a ton of audio gear starting when I was about 11. Most were my designs as well. I've received the *ultimate* complement for some of my audio projects - other professionals borrowed some of them and used them for a decade or so before giving them back! ;-) I've also personally designed and built more items and more dollar value in electronics gear than just about anybody you know, but that reaches outside of audio. Not to mention thousands of professional recording gigs... And since he has no idea who many or any of us might know, it's a same old story. -- shut up and play your guitar * http://hankalrich.com/ http://armadillomusicproductions.com/who'slistening.html http://www.sonicbids.com/HankandShai...withDougHarman |
#20
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The $5 preamp Urban Legend
"Predrag Trpkov" wrote in
message "Arny Krueger" wrote in message ... "PStamler" wrote in message I said that for $500 a mixer would be usable but not serviceable -- which is true of all the cheap mixers; the labor costs for disassembly alone end up being more than the mixer is worth. I did a little checking around and failed to find even one pro audio shop that wanted $500 to do an inspection of a $500 mixer. You also failed to realize that by the time a $500 mixer gets to a repair shop its actual value has dropped significantly, which makes Paul's observation valid. You seem to be making unfounded assumptions. I found that most pro audio shops would charge $75-150 for an estimate. The cost of the actual repair could be just about anything because we can't predict what's wrong. I just paid $2,500 to repair a video projector that still had a replacement value of over $5,000. Obtaining a professionally-refurbished large venue video projector that is a few years old with 2 new bulbs for $2,500 is not a bad deal. Similar costs and benefits on a percentage basis might apply to consoles. I've taken a few of them apart myself, and it isn't rocket science. I could see where someone who didn't want to deal with that class of customer or product might intentionally price themselves out of the particular marketplace, but that's an administrative choice, not a technical necessity. Or maybe they have done enough of it to properly assess the costs and risks involved. That's essentially what I said. For example, it is pretty obvious that many professional audio repair shops go out of their way to *not* deal with DJ's, for example. |
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