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  #41   Report Post  
Eddie Runner
 
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Default I know how installers work

Mark Zarella wrote:

ha ha ha
that makes me laugh Mark...
I betcha you dont know as much about installers as you think you do


I betcha you have a warped view of reality because you're a member of the
profession I'm criticizing. Gotta stick up for your own, huh?


I have seen the good and the bad... I know what they are
thinking!! I know why they take shortcuts and why they do good work!

I really dont think you have a clue... ;-)

  #42   Report Post  
Eddie Runner
 
Posts: n/a
Default bad attitude??

No, I dont believe the guy was stupid enough to
take your advice.....

Mark Zarella wrote:

Well, it worked, didn't it? Are you suggesting that he should have just
forgotten about it and lived with the problem? Or should he have gone
somewhere else to have it finished?


  #43   Report Post  
Mark Zarella
 
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Default bad attitude??

No, I dont believe the guy was stupid enough to
take your advice.....


He did exactly as I said. Whether it's because I suggested or not, I don't
know. But I do know that he did it exactly as I suggested: go back to the
shop with an estimate from another shop and tell them that it can be done.
He did that. It's now fixed. Bad advice, huh?


  #44   Report Post  
Mark Zarella
 
Posts: n/a
Default Caddies that suck....

Because all of the others said that it couldn't be done.

Some of the big chain stores dont work on certain types
of cars if there are no pop in kits and harnesses.. there
are some Caddies that suck....


There is only one chain here and that's Best Buy, and I didn't try it.


Or, in two cases,
they said they've never installed in a Cadillac before (that says newbie

to
me).


I have never installed in MANY cars, but thats not an indication of a
Newbie, specialy when I have done 10s of thousands of other types
of cars....


A Caddy is just another car. They're rather common. What especially tipped
me off was when the guy said "I don't know if we have anyone who could do
that work. Well, maybe so-and-so can..." I'm sure you can understand why
this didn't inspire a lot of confidence.

But I wouldnt call em name, I would just look for the guy that has
done a car like yours a few times in the past..


They didn't have any. Another place I went to did a car that was supposedly
identical to mine, but he said it was impossible to install just one sub and
expect to hear it at all. I ruled that place out too, for obvious reasons.

And this place was recommended to me. The only place I didn't have
look at my car was a place that wanted to charge $50 just to give me an
estimate.


If they can do that they are probably a really good place....


That may be true, but I wasn't going to gamble with $50. Especially if they
came back with a $2000 estimate.


  #45   Report Post  
Taycron
 
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Default Caddies that suck....


I thought this had to do with golf...:

-
Taycro
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted via RealCarAudio.com - The checkmate of the caraudio community
http://www.RealCarAudio.co
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  #46   Report Post  
John Durbin
 
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Default I know how installers work

I'm with Ed on this - I think you are overstating your position and in
the process doing an injustice to many installers around the world that
ARE better at their jobs than you are giving them credit for.

JD

Mark Zarella wrote:

No, I'm suggesting that they're not very good at their jobs. That goes


for


95% of the shops out there. As I said, I know how installers work.


ha ha ha
that makes me laugh Mark...
I betcha you dont know as much about installers as you think you do



I betcha you have a warped view of reality because you're a member of the
profession I'm criticizing. Gotta stick up for your own, huh?





  #47   Report Post  
Mark Zarella
 
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Default I know how installers work

I'm with Ed on this - I think you are overstating your position and in
the process doing an injustice to many installers around the world that
ARE better at their jobs than you are giving them credit for.


Many? As an "outside observer" looking in from a customer's point of view,
I just don't see the expertise and dedication to putting out quality work
that I saw, say, 5 or 10 years ago. I just don't think these people take
pride in it anymore. Of course there are some that do, and some that are
very good at what they do. I never said there wasn't. But from my own
observations, I think the percentage of good installers is rapidly
dwindling.


  #48   Report Post  
Masterson
 
Posts: n/a
Default Installers are you and I

I'm with Ed on this - I think you are overstating your position and in
the process doing an injustice to many installers around the world that
ARE better at their jobs than you are giving them credit for.


John...I agree with you, that I agree with Ed. I think there are plenty of
good installers in my area. People who take the time to understand a
problem
and give it a long term solution. There are so many things about working on
cars that people just don't understand. It's not easy.


Mark....you have a great sense of this industry. I have read ten's of
posts from you that correct and helpful. but.....
As an "outside observer" looking in from a customer's point of view,

that being said, you need to remember that you don't know the entire
story. I would bet none of us do, in regards to the original post.


I just don't see the expertise and dedication to putting out quality work
that I saw, say, 5 or 10 years ago.


Here, with this statement I agree with you. The education level has
decreased, car technology has greatly increased, profits have disappeared
from the industry, the OEM systems are vastly improved. All of these
factors have lead to people not getting paid enough to have a level
of education and customer service that most people demand. The only
way for a service industry to survive is by making money. I think its
really that simple. Without paying a decent amount, the employee
behind the counter can't earn a living, and he wont give a damn about
your car. Or learn new things. He will get another job, and let the
next 17 year old fill his position.





  #49   Report Post  
mayhemkrew
 
Posts: n/a
Default I know how installers work

I agree Eddie. I know why I do some of my things, but outsiders will have
no ideas why I do it or why I don't do it all the time.

"Eddie Runner" wrote in message
...
I have seen the good and the bad... I know what they are
thinking!! I know why they take shortcuts and why they do good work!

I really dont think you have a clue... ;-)



  #50   Report Post  
Ivan Lopez
 
Posts: n/a
Default Caddies that suck....

Which place did you end up going to?

"Mark Zarella" wrote in message
...
Because all of the others said that it couldn't be done.


Some of the big chain stores dont work on certain types
of cars if there are no pop in kits and harnesses.. there
are some Caddies that suck....


There is only one chain here and that's Best Buy, and I didn't try it.


Or, in two cases,
they said they've never installed in a Cadillac before (that says newbie

to
me).


I have never installed in MANY cars, but thats not an indication of a
Newbie, specialy when I have done 10s of thousands of other types
of cars....


A Caddy is just another car. They're rather common. What especially tipped
me off was when the guy said "I don't know if we have anyone who could do
that work. Well, maybe so-and-so can..." I'm sure you can understand why
this didn't inspire a lot of confidence.

But I wouldnt call em name, I would just look for the guy that has
done a car like yours a few times in the past..


They didn't have any. Another place I went to did a car that was supposedly
identical to mine, but he said it was impossible to install just one sub and
expect to hear it at all. I ruled that place out too, for obvious reasons.

And this place was recommended to me. The only place I didn't have
look at my car was a place that wanted to charge $50 just to give me an
estimate.


If they can do that they are probably a really good place....


That may be true, but I wasn't going to gamble with $50. Especially if they
came back with a $2000 estimate.




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  #51   Report Post  
Mark Zarella
 
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Default I know how installers work

I agree Eddie. I know why I do some of my things, but outsiders will have
no ideas why I do it or why I don't do it all the time.


I'm not referring to shortcuts. I was referring to things that are done
that specifically degrade sound quality or introduce high prices when
they're not warranted.


  #52   Report Post  
Mark Zarella
 
Posts: n/a
Default Installers are you and I

John...I agree with you, that I agree with Ed. I think there are plenty
of
good installers in my area. People who take the time to understand a
problem
and give it a long term solution. There are so many things about working

on
cars that people just don't understand. It's not easy.


Mark....you have a great sense of this industry. I have read ten's of
posts from you that correct and helpful. but.....
As an "outside observer" looking in from a customer's point of view,

that being said, you need to remember that you don't know the entire
story. I would bet none of us do, in regards to the original post.


I don't necessarily disagree with that. But from what we do know, it
doesn't look too favorable for the installer. And I'm not having a
difficult time believing that the poster is telling it like it is, because
I've seen this sort of thing way too many times.


I just don't see the expertise and dedication to putting out quality

work
that I saw, say, 5 or 10 years ago.


Here, with this statement I agree with you. The education level has
decreased, car technology has greatly increased, profits have disappeared
from the industry, the OEM systems are vastly improved. All of these
factors have lead to people not getting paid enough to have a level
of education and customer service that most people demand. The only
way for a service industry to survive is by making money. I think its
really that simple. Without paying a decent amount, the employee
behind the counter can't earn a living, and he wont give a damn about
your car. Or learn new things. He will get another job, and let the
next 17 year old fill his position.


Good analysis. I have no data to support it, but I suspect turnover rate
has increased over recent years.


  #53   Report Post  
Mark Zarella
 
Posts: n/a
Default Caddies that suck....

Which place did you end up going to?

I'd prefer not to say. They're a good group of guys who seem to be talented
in a number of aspects. And they've been more than willing to correct the
mistakes that I've asked them to correct (the alt whine, loose wires, etc).
The other things that I need to fix weren't mistakes per se, but are far
from ideal situations, and are situations that most certainly do degrade
sound quality. Bottom line is that I can live with it until summertime.


  #54   Report Post  
Eddie Runner
 
Posts: n/a
Default I know how installers work

yep.
as an installer the more expereince you get the more things you learn
there becomes ways of doing things that you just cant explain to an
outsider...

Folks like Mark (KNOW IT ALLS) come along all the time and try
to instruct us how to do our jobs.. some times its a little irritating...
Many installers dont handle it well.

In my case, I dont mind the customer watching if he thinks he
is a know it all, sometimes its easier to let him watch me work and
ask questions or offer suggestions as the job progresses.. This way
the customer will know why the job has to be done a certain way.

In most installations there is no RIGHT or WRONG that an outsider
like Mark can judge from his seat in front of his computer...

The RIGHT OR WRONG is between the installer and the customer!!
Only the customer can be the judge.... In this case the customer didnt
appear to be happy, but it did appear the installers did know what they
were doing... It also appeared the installers and customer did communicate
fairly well... SO, I dont think either way anyone but the customer and
the installers involved really know the whole story....

Thats why I didnt ADVISE the customer to do anything...
I simply told him what his problem was... With my info the customer
could take the car anywhere, even back to the original installers if
he wished and they could probably take my info and fix the problem..

MARK, and many others gave ADVICE to DEMAND ACTION!!
And even stomp the installers ass if he \does not comply!!
ha ha ha

I would just hate to see someone raggin on an installer, (or anyone else)
because some KNOW IT ALL on the internet told him to....ha ha
specially when the KNOW IT ALL doesnt really know much about the
subject at hand...

Eddie Runner

mayhemkrew wrote:

I agree Eddie. I know why I do some of my things, but outsiders will have
no ideas why I do it or why I don't do it all the time.

"Eddie Runner" wrote in message
...
I have seen the good and the bad... I know what they are
thinking!! I know why they take shortcuts and why they do good work!

I really dont think you have a clue... ;-)


  #55   Report Post  
Mark Zarella
 
Posts: n/a
Default I know how installers work

yep.
as an installer the more expereince you get the more things you learn
there becomes ways of doing things that you just cant explain to an
outsider...

Folks like Mark (KNOW IT ALLS) come along all the time and try
to instruct us how to do our jobs.. some times its a little irritating...
Many installers dont handle it well.


What on earth are you talking about? You consider doing something that
degrades sound quality a harmless shortcut? Again, remind me never to have
your shop do anything for me.

In my case, I dont mind the customer watching if he thinks he
is a know it all, sometimes its easier to let him watch me work and
ask questions or offer suggestions as the job progresses.. This way
the customer will know why the job has to be done a certain way.


I can't imagine being watched would be very good at all. Especially if
you've got someone criticizing your every move along the way.

In most installations there is no RIGHT or WRONG that an outsider
like Mark can judge from his seat in front of his computer...

The RIGHT OR WRONG is between the installer and the customer!!


Yeah, and in this case the customer said "WRONG!" Why did he say wrong?
Because his audio system was squeeling at him!

Only the customer can be the judge.... In this case the customer didnt
appear to be happy, but it did appear the installers did know what they
were doing...


Yeah, they fixed it. So they must have known what to do. So why did they
lie to him initially? We all know it's because they were trying to make
more money.

It also appeared the installers and customer did communicate
fairly well... SO, I dont think either way anyone but the customer

and
the installers involved really know the whole story....

Thats why I didnt ADVISE the customer to do anything...
I simply told him what his problem was... With my info the customer
could take the car anywhere, even back to the original installers if
he wished and they could probably take my info and fix the problem..

MARK, and many others gave ADVICE to DEMAND ACTION!!
And even stomp the installers ass if he \does not comply!!


Oh give me a break.

ha ha ha

I would just hate to see someone raggin on an installer, (or anyone else)
because some KNOW IT ALL on the internet told him to....ha ha
specially when the KNOW IT ALL doesnt really know much about the
subject at hand...


If you say so. It appears you're the clueless one here now.




  #56   Report Post  
Ivan Lopez
 
Posts: n/a
Default Installers are you and I

I think the ones that are defending their installation profession probably
represent the 'good' installers/car audio shops that are out there. But at
the same time I agree with Mark in the fact that it is hard to come by
'good' installers across the board. I've only had two installations done by
someone other than myself. The first time was years ago when I first got
into this and I didn't know all the nuances of car audio. I traded in the
vehicle so I had to reverse engineer what the installer did and realized
that this wasn't rocket science. Then I started doing it myself. The
second instance was during the winter time and I didn't have the ability to
do it myself so I found a place to do it. Both of my experiences were fine
though.

But, there have been times where I gone in asking detailed questions about
products only to get blown off by the salesperson or told that there is no
such product when I know there was. Another occasion I was told by the
owner of the store that I didn't know nothing about T/S parameters and I had
them all wrong. One other time the guy was trying to get me to ditch what I
currently had and jump full bore into some $1500 system.

It's definitely a hit/miss situation. I usually don't bother with the local
shops nowadays unless I need a part or something straightforward.

"Masterson" wrote in message
...
I'm with Ed on this - I think you are overstating your position and in
the process doing an injustice to many installers around the world that
ARE better at their jobs than you are giving them credit for.


John...I agree with you, that I agree with Ed. I think there are plenty of
good installers in my area. People who take the time to understand a
problem and give it a long term solution. There are so many things about
working on
cars that people just don't understand. It's not easy.


Mark....you have a great sense of this industry. I have read ten's of
posts from you that correct and helpful. but.....
As an "outside observer" looking in from a customer's point of view,
that being said, you need to remember that you don't know the entire
story. I would bet none of us do, in regards to the original post.



I just don't see the expertise and dedication to putting out quality work
that I saw, say, 5 or 10 years ago.


Here, with this statement I agree with you. The education level has
decreased, car technology has greatly increased, profits have disappeared
from the industry, the OEM systems are vastly improved. All of these
factors have lead to people not getting paid enough to have a level
of education and customer service that most people demand. The only
way for a service industry to survive is by making money. I think its
really that simple. Without paying a decent amount, the employee
behind the counter can't earn a living, and he wont give a damn about
your car. Or learn new things. He will get another job, and let the
next 17 year old fill his position.







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Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
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  #57   Report Post  
Ivan Lopez
 
Posts: n/a
Default Caddies that suck....

I know I recommended some places to you before when you were asking and I
was just hoping I didn't recommend you into a bad one.

"Mark Zarella" wrote in message
...
Which place did you end up going to?


I'd prefer not to say. They're a good group of guys who seem to be talented
in a number of aspects. And they've been more than willing to correct the
mistakes that I've asked them to correct (the alt whine, loose wires, etc).
The other things that I need to fix weren't mistakes per se, but are far
from ideal situations, and are situations that most certainly do degrade
sound quality. Bottom line is that I can live with it until summertime.




---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.564 / Virus Database: 356 - Release Date: 1/19/2004


  #58   Report Post  
Mark Zarella
 
Posts: n/a
Default Installers are you and I

I think the ones that are defending their installation profession probably
represent the 'good' installers/car audio shops that are out there. But

at
the same time I agree with Mark in the fact that it is hard to come by
'good' installers across the board. I've only had two installations done

by
someone other than myself. The first time was years ago when I first got
into this and I didn't know all the nuances of car audio. I traded in the
vehicle so I had to reverse engineer what the installer did and realized
that this wasn't rocket science. Then I started doing it myself. The
second instance was during the winter time and I didn't have the ability

to
do it myself so I found a place to do it. Both of my experiences were

fine
though.

But, there have been times where I gone in asking detailed questions about
products only to get blown off by the salesperson or told that there is no
such product when I know there was. Another occasion I was told by the
owner of the store that I didn't know nothing about T/S parameters and I

had
them all wrong. One other time the guy was trying to get me to ditch what

I
currently had and jump full bore into some $1500 system.

It's definitely a hit/miss situation. I usually don't bother with the

local
shops nowadays unless I need a part or something straightforward.


Salesman are another story entirely. Most of them have no installation
experience, and don't know a damned thing about anything.

Again, I'll probably be criticized for this too because someone will come
along and not know the difference between the words "most" and "all".


  #59   Report Post  
Eddie Runner
 
Posts: n/a
Default I know how installers work

Mark Zarella wrote:

I'm with Ed on this - I think you are overstating your position and in
the process doing an injustice to many installers around the world that
ARE better at their jobs than you are giving them credit for.


Many?


MANY MANY!!

As an "outside observer" looking in from a customer's point of view,
I just don't see the expertise and dedication to putting out quality work
that I saw, say, 5 or 10 years ago.


Your not out in the bays!! No wonder you dont see it!!

Durbin is actually a pretty good judge of this question, he sees so many
different shops and so many different installers EVERYDAY!!
He can see the dedication and FUN from some of the shops and he
can see the CRAP shops that dont give a **** also!!

Durbin would be a respectable source of this particular info
THATS WHAT HE DOES!!

I just don't think these people take
pride in it anymore.


There are some that do!!

I think the percentage of good installers is rapidly
dwindling.


I would be interested in Durbins observations on this question.
But I would say the popularity of car audio has INCREASED
the total number of installers, and also increased the number
of good installers also...

Eddie Runner


  #60   Report Post  
Eddie Runner
 
Posts: n/a
Default I know how installers work

Mark Zarella wrote:

I'm not referring to shortcuts. I was referring to things that are done
that specifically degrade sound quality or introduce high prices when
they're not warranted.


Mark, I guess you dont realize there is not a such thing in existance called
a PERFECT INSTALLATION!!!

ANYTHING can be improved upon...

With that said,
where do we draw the line?

MANY MANY installers install using the amps built in inputs!!
And many of those have noise....
Its not the installers fault, its the crappy hi/lo in the amp, IT IS installed
correctly!!

A step up might be some installers that lessen this problem by
just turning the gains down (music and all) and it works, and its
installed properly!!!

A step up might be some installers that use seperate hi/lo adapters cause
they know there might be noise, they have to charge the customer a
little more, which manytimes makes customers goto the cheaper places
(listed above).....

A step up from this might be installers that refuse to use a hi/lo cause they
think the hi lo adds distortions (of course they do!) and they will only
do the install if they install the headunit with RCAs on it that are directly
compatable with the RCAs on the amp....

A step up from there is the installer that wont even install that amp because
the gear the customer has isnt high end enough and will certainly suffer
from bad sound.......

A step up from there is the installer that wont do the job unless he charges
the customer to modify the headunit and amplifier by removing the hookup
terminals and soldering the speaker wires and rca cables directly to the
PC boards for less losses!!! At a HUGE expense of course!!

Mark,
You can decide what your own limits are, but customers out there have all kinds
of limits and sometimes so do installers... Some will gladly exept what you
or I would never accept, and others would not except what you or I think
is great!!

So you cant judge on someone elses install with another installer where
they sit in this spectrum.... Maybe the guy thought the noise was OK, but
then decided after a day or two it wansnt liveable.... IT HAPPENS!!!

You dont have enough info to blame the installers.
And your reasoning is the job wasnt perfect....
NO JOB IS PERFECT!
I CAN IMPROVE ON ANYTHING!!

Relax!

Eddie Runner




  #61   Report Post  
Eddie Runner
 
Posts: n/a
Default Installers are you and I

Masterson wrote:

John...I agree with you, that I agree with Ed. I think there are plenty of
good installers in my area. People who take the time to understand a
problem
and give it a long term solution. There are so many things about working on
cars that people just don't understand. It's not easy.


Plus, as an installer, there are some customers I have, that I would spend
litterally HOURS with them in thier cars helping them decide what to buy
or how the install will be, or helping them adjust things after the install...

AND, on the other hand there are cartain customers that I would just
as soon show the door and I dont even want to touch thier job!!
(MARK MIGHT FIT IN THIS CATEGORY im not sure but
it would explain some things)




  #62   Report Post  
Mark Zarella
 
Posts: n/a
Default I know how installers work

I'm not referring to shortcuts. I was referring to things that are done
that specifically degrade sound quality or introduce high prices when
they're not warranted.


Mark, I guess you dont realize there is not a such thing in existance

called
a PERFECT INSTALLATION!!!


If you feel that an installation with no alternator whine is a "perfect
installation", then your standards are pretty low.


  #63   Report Post  
Mark Zarella
 
Posts: n/a
Default I know how installers work

As an "outside observer" looking in from a customer's point of view,
I just don't see the expertise and dedication to putting out quality

work
that I saw, say, 5 or 10 years ago.


Your not out in the bays!! No wonder you dont see it!!


You don't see it because you ARE in the bays. You have an obvious bias and
see things from an entirely different point of view. You think it's ok that
installers charge people for things and don't even do the work as promised,
simply because it makes the installer's life easier or gives him the power
trip that you think you deserve. Well that's great for you, but try to pull
that crap in a lot of other industries and it won't fly.


  #64   Report Post  
Eddie Runner
 
Posts: n/a
Default I know how installers work

You cut out most of my message where I explained there are
MANY STANDARDS!

some worse that yours and mine, and some better that think
were worthless and weak!

Mark Zarella wrote:

If you feel that an installation with no alternator whine is a "perfect
installation", then your standards are pretty low.


  #65   Report Post  
Mark Zarella
 
Posts: n/a
Default I know how installers work

You cut out most of my message where I explained there are
MANY STANDARDS!


None of them were relevant to the topic at hand. The topic was alt whine.
Try to stay on track.




  #66   Report Post  
Eddie Runner
 
Posts: n/a
Default I know how installers work

Mark Zarella wrote:

Your not out in the bays!! No wonder you dont see it!!


You don't see it because you ARE in the bays. You have an obvious bias and
see things from an entirely different point of view. You think it's ok that
installers charge people for things and don't even do the work as promised,
simply because it makes the installer's life easier or gives him the power
trip that you think you deserve. Well that's great for you, but try to pull
that crap in a lot of other industries and it won't fly.


That post by you right there proves my point...

If an installer does not connect with the customer, if the custoemr
leaves unhappy, then the shop will probably die and go away....

This biz doesnt have a huge profit margin, we pretty much need to
make all of our customers happy and keep them all telling others
what a good experience they had at our store...

The shops that dont do this will usually go away.....

Even the good shops have to scrimp to make it sometimes, so the
bad shops have a much harder time financially (all other things being
equal)...

There are some places that charge for parts they dont even use!
(a large chain comes to mind and thats part of how they compansate for FREE
installs)
To me thats a RIP OFF!!
There are rippoffs in every type of biz thoough....

Hopefully the bad guys will go away and the good guys will prevail...

Eddie



  #67   Report Post  
Eddie Runner
 
Posts: n/a
Default I know how installers work

Mark Zarella wrote:

You consider doing something that
degrades sound quality a harmless shortcut?


Some shops dont do very good work by your standards
Some shops think your standards suck!!

If the customers come that type of shop will survive!

Again, remind me never to have
your shop do anything for me.


Why are you always trying to be an ASS..??

I can't imagine being watched would be very good at all. Especially if
you've got someone criticizing your every move along the way.


I love it!!
It allows me to have a better bond with the customer!!
He understand what I do in his car and understand WHY I do it
and he also understands the price I charge him.....

It helps me to do a job that he will be happy with (if he is the
picky sort)


  #68   Report Post  
Mark Zarella
 
Posts: n/a
Default I know how installers work

You don't see it because you ARE in the bays. You have an obvious bias
and
see things from an entirely different point of view. You think it's ok

that
installers charge people for things and don't even do the work as

promised,
simply because it makes the installer's life easier or gives him the

power
trip that you think you deserve. Well that's great for you, but try to

pull
that crap in a lot of other industries and it won't fly.


That post by you right there proves my point...

If an installer does not connect with the customer, if the custoemr
leaves unhappy, then the shop will probably die and go away....

This biz doesnt have a huge profit margin, we pretty much need to
make all of our customers happy and keep them all telling others
what a good experience they had at our store...

The shops that dont do this will usually go away.....


I'm well aware of that. Repeat customers and word of mouth by those
customers is the staple in this industry. Circuit City and Best Buy are
less reliant on this principle, however. They make their money on the
equipment. That could be part of the explanation of why they were being
half-assed with the original poster here, until he came back a second time.

Even the good shops have to scrimp to make it sometimes, so the
bad shops have a much harder time financially (all other things being
equal)...

There are some places that charge for parts they dont even use!
(a large chain comes to mind and thats part of how they compansate for

FREE
installs)
To me thats a RIP OFF!!
There are rippoffs in every type of biz thoough....

Hopefully the bad guys will go away and the good guys will prevail...


Acknowledging that these ripoffs exist is fine. But that doesn't mean we
should have to accept them and refrain from criticizing them. There are
many shops and chains that make a habit of lying to their customers.
Especially the chains, as I'm aware of training sessions (I've attended some
of them before) where the employees are lied to, and as a result they
propagate these lies to the customer. So it's a system-wide problem in that
case that starts at the top. I think it's quite possible that the poster
encountered this in this situation.


  #69   Report Post  
Mark Zarella
 
Posts: n/a
Default I know how installers work

You consider doing something that
degrades sound quality a harmless shortcut?


Some shops dont do very good work by your standards
Some shops think your standards suck!!


I know. That's the problem I have with these shops. If they think a
standard that expects good sound quality is a standard that "sucks", then I
have a problem with that shop.


  #70   Report Post  
Eddie Runner
 
Posts: n/a
Default installers SUCK!


Oh, and Durbin can probalby back me up on this one..

Generally stuff installed by do it yourselfers is FAR WORSE
that stuff installed professionally!!

Many brands discourage self installation just cause they
know customers burn up way more gear than pro installers do...







  #71   Report Post  
Mark Zarella
 
Posts: n/a
Default installers SUCK!

Oh, and Durbin can probalby back me up on this one..

Generally stuff installed by do it yourselfers is FAR WORSE
that stuff installed professionally!!

Many brands discourage self installation just cause they
know customers burn up way more gear than pro installers do...


I'm sure that's true.


  #72   Report Post  
Eddie Runner
 
Posts: n/a
Default I know how installers work

Mark Zarella wrote:

Acknowledging that these ripoffs exist is fine.


they do!

But that doesn't mean we
should have to accept them and refrain from criticizing them.


I always critisize when I get ripped off!
I speciallize in making web pages about the assholes that screw me!

http://www.txsoft.net/houstonamateur/
http://www.installer.com/crooks/crook6.html

But I am not sure the installers in this case SCREWED the customer!

I know you have had bad experiences, but thats no reason to
advise every customer to pick up a STICK and chase his installer
around the parking lot..... ha ha ha

There are
many shops and chains that make a habit of lying to their customers.


Yes there are!!!!
Not just car audio shops... Mechaiincs might take the cake from my
expereince....

And some in almost every field!!

Especially the chains, as I'm aware of training sessions (I've attended some
of them before) where the employees are lied to, and as a result they
propagate these lies to the customer.


Sure!

So it's a system-wide problem in that
case that starts at the top.


Could be, but it probably has anything to do with this case.

I think it's quite possible that the poster
encountered this in this situation.


nope, it looked like they recomended fixes the customer didnt respond
to the first time he was there...

Eddie


  #73   Report Post  
Mark Zarella
 
Posts: n/a
Default I know how installers work

I think it's quite possible that the poster
encountered this in this situation.


nope, it looked like they recomended fixes the customer didnt respond
to the first time he was there...


If the poster is telling the truth, then their first response was that it
couldn't be fixed unless he bought a new head unit. That's lying.


  #74   Report Post  
Eddie Runner
 
Posts: n/a
Default I know how installers work

and by the same token the shops that you think
suck probably have a problem with your standards...

Mark you just dont get my point.
(I can tell your avaoiding it)

Mark Zarella wrote:

You consider doing something that
degrades sound quality a harmless shortcut?


Some shops dont do very good work by your standards
Some shops think your standards suck!!


I know. That's the problem I have with these shops. If they think a
standard that expects good sound quality is a standard that "sucks", then I
have a problem with that shop.


  #75   Report Post  
Eddie Runner
 
Posts: n/a
Default I know how installers work

Choose your words carefully Mark!

We dont know what the actuall words were.

What if they said, we can fix it if you had a headunit with RCAs...
Or, It would work better with a head unit with RCAs
We dont know what they actually said do we??

The words you choose it makes it sound like the installers
said BUY A NEW HEADUNIT OR HIT THE DOOR MORON!

I doubt it was the way you seem to want it to be..

Eddie

Mark Zarella wrote:

I think it's quite possible that the poster
encountered this in this situation.


nope, it looked like they recomended fixes the customer didnt respond
to the first time he was there...


If the poster is telling the truth, then their first response was that it
couldn't be fixed unless he bought a new head unit. That's lying.




  #76   Report Post  
Mark Zarella
 
Posts: n/a
Default I know how installers work

and by the same token the shops that you think
suck probably have a problem with your standards...

Mark you just dont get my point.
(I can tell your avaoiding it)


I guess I don't get your point then.


  #77   Report Post  
sancho
 
Posts: n/a
Default installation day at circuit city!

Eddie Runner wrote:

Mark Zarella wrote:


snip - for ****'s sake

geez... i got one of them headaches i used to get when i was trying to
read all the **** that smiffy would write...
--
sancho
succinct
  #78   Report Post  
Eddie Runner
 
Posts: n/a
Default Sanchos back!

who gave you permission to come onto RAC..??

You dont own it anymore!!

sancho wrote:

Eddie Runner wrote:

Mark Zarella wrote:


snip - for ****'s sake

geez... i got one of them headaches i used to get when i was trying to
read all the **** that smiffy would write...
--
sancho
succinct


  #79   Report Post  
John Durbin
 
Posts: n/a
Default I know how installers work

I have probably less direct contact with installers as a customer than
you - beyond the fact that I typically do my own installs anyway (17
years of practice has to be good for something), I haven't taken a car
to a shop in a long time. However, both my kids have several times in
the last few years, and overall were treated well by the businesses.

Beyond that, I do have the inside track on what our 14 or so techs feel
on this subject, and they spend hours on the phone with installers all day.

Only thing that I will agree HAS changed is it now takes just minutes to
get on the internet and complain about a bad retail experience - not
saying some of those aren't legitimate mind you - and instantly
thousands and thousands of people have read that info and possibly
changed their opinion of the profession.

Hell, I just read a thread about a guy that had a bad experience from
taking his car to what I know personally to be one of the best shops in
the area. Everyone has a bad day occasionally, but that's not grounds
for indicting the whole industry.

JD

Mark Zarella wrote:

I'm with Ed on this - I think you are overstating your position and in
the process doing an injustice to many installers around the world that
ARE better at their jobs than you are giving them credit for.



Many? As an "outside observer" looking in from a customer's point of view,
I just don't see the expertise and dedication to putting out quality work
that I saw, say, 5 or 10 years ago. I just don't think these people take
pride in it anymore. Of course there are some that do, and some that are
very good at what they do. I never said there wasn't. But from my own
observations, I think the percentage of good installers is rapidly
dwindling.





  #80   Report Post  
John Durbin
 
Posts: n/a
Default I know how installers work

That's an interesting question, Eddie - I would have a hard time saying
with any proof that the total number of shops and guys working in them
has increased in the past 2-3 years, but clearly there are a lot more
places to take a car than there were in my day (I left retail in 93) in
my local area. I used to be able to name all the players and knew
something about each shop, these days I barely know a half dozen that
well in my area. And those mostly the ones that have hung in for many
years.

The influence of big box stores and the number of people they churn
through their install bays is another factor. Probably, the talent pool
has gotten larger and inevitable it probably has gotten somewhat
diluted. But I think Mark is painting an overly bleak picture, from my
own take on things anyway.

JD

Eddie Runner wrote:

Mark Zarella wrote:



I'm with Ed on this - I think you are overstating your position and in
the process doing an injustice to many installers around the world that
ARE better at their jobs than you are giving them credit for.


Many?



MANY MANY!!



As an "outside observer" looking in from a customer's point of view,
I just don't see the expertise and dedication to putting out quality work
that I saw, say, 5 or 10 years ago.



Your not out in the bays!! No wonder you dont see it!!

Durbin is actually a pretty good judge of this question, he sees so many
different shops and so many different installers EVERYDAY!!
He can see the dedication and FUN from some of the shops and he
can see the CRAP shops that dont give a **** also!!

Durbin would be a respectable source of this particular info
THATS WHAT HE DOES!!



I just don't think these people take
pride in it anymore.



There are some that do!!



I think the percentage of good installers is rapidly
dwindling.



I would be interested in Durbins observations on this question.
But I would say the popularity of car audio has INCREASED
the total number of installers, and also increased the number
of good installers also...

Eddie Runner





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