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  #41   Report Post  
Eddie Runner
 
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Default Facing subs towards driver or away

My tests today are 20Hz to 120Hz....!!
I see plenty of differences!
http://installer.com/tech/aiming2.html

Dont you see em Tom???

ha ha
Eddie Runner

Nousaine wrote:

But Eddie and the woofer-direction folks aren't talking 90 Hz. But I'll agree
that many people will interpret changes at 100-200 Hz as "Bass" effects.

What is interesting is that with the woofer facing the listener it's quite
likely that there will be significantly more low-midrange output. This can
either be an advantage or a problem, depending.

But the argument in this thread is that simply facing the woofer toward the
rear of the car delivers more bass. It can only do that when you consider
upper-bass and lower midrange(usually 80 hz and above) as the key elements.
Depending on the intended woofer operating range this may or may not be
important.

But the general population seems to simply classify any change in sound as
more/better "bass" when it's not.

I think it's useful to break down these Urban Legends into component factors
and focus on what's really happening acoustically.


  #42   Report Post  
Eddie Runner
 
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Default Facing subs towards driver or away

Followup!
http://installer.com/tech/aiming2.html

Eddie Runner wrote:

Tom Nousaine keeps insisting THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE!

He has said if you do hear a BASS difference by turning the box
around then you either changed something or you are halucinating.

Every installer and so many kids that install thier own woofers know
that turning the box to the rear of the car usually produces MORE BASS!
Probaby MOST of the folks on here KNOW THIS ALREADY and
have experienced it for themselves....

THE REASON!
TOM on the other hand is stuck in a corner... Several years ago he
wrote an article for Car Stereo Review that claimed the woofer box
orientation is not important... !! And those fools at CSR published it!
(ha ha) anyway, Toms professional credibility would be SHOT if
he admitted to what so many of us know for a fact ....

The reason he didnt hear or measure a difference (if you read the
article) is because of the simple fact that his test car was a CORVETTE!
(ha ha again)

Butting a box in the hatch of a corvette, there isnt much room to move the
box very far, so the effects I describe on my website would probably be
non existant (to the ear)...

In a normal car trunk, turning a big box around or moving it substancially
can make a large noticable difference!

In a tiny corevett that has to have a TINY box anyway, how far car it
be moved??? ha ha .. not far enough for Tom to hear a difference!

NO ****!
So he based the laws of physics on his little crackerbox CORVETTE!

Thats the problem as I see it!
Thats why he wont admit what we can all hear...

Good luck argueing with him, he will NEVER admit it or even try
to have a resonable technical discussion about it....

Eddie Runner

Luke Hague wrote:

I guess my big question, which Eddie seems to be the only one who can
answer, is why DOES it make a difference when you turn the box around? and
when I mean turn the box around, I DON'T mean change anything else.

"Nousaine" wrote in message
...


  #43   Report Post  
Eddie Runner
 
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Default Facing subs towards driver or away

http://installer.com/tech/aiming2.html

Nousaine wrote:

Mark Zarella

i have heard putting subs at the back facing forward have more
cancellation issues due to wave bouncing off the back end and
cancelling the front wave...i read it in a website...


You can also read about alien visits on websites too. At bass wavelengths

(17
feet @ 60 Hz and much longer at lower frequencies)


(and shorter at higher frequencies)

there just aren't any
"cancellation" issues going on in the car cabin.


Sure there are. The wavelength is on the order of car size. A 9ft path
length difference is enough to put the 60 Hz wave completely out of
phase. A 90 degree shift requires only 4.5 feet. That can easily be
the path length difference that the poster was referring to.


4.5 feet is not the "distance" involved in deciding which "way" to face the
woofer at subwoofer frequencies.


In your living room the standing wave region will occur in the bass range
(roughly 30 to 300 Hz) but in a much smaller space this is shifted up by

about
an octave (60 to 600 Hz in a small car.)

But even at 60 Hz any 'cancellations' will occur at a fraction of a

wavelength
(200-300 Hz) and not at the fundamental.


You don't need 180 degree differences to create attenuation or any other
response irregularities. Even so, why are you ignoring the importance
of "higher" frequencies?


I'm not. But most people will low pass a "subwoofer" which seemed to me to be
the point of this thread. As I said earlier in a vehicle the standing wave
region is shifted upward in frequency by an octave compared to a listening
room, which is an interesting phenomenon and problem but it generally isn't a
"do I get more/better bass when the woofer faces the rear of the car?"

Bass is the same either way. Midrange can be a factor.


  #44   Report Post  
Eddie Runner
 
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Default THE PROOF IS IN! Facing subs towards driver or away

http://installer.com/tech/aiming2.html



  #45   Report Post  
Paul Vina
 
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Default Facing subs towards driver or away

I've faced it in all 5 practical positions (up, left, right, front and back)
in 5 locations (all 4 corners and the middle) in the trunk.


Paul Vina



"Eddie Runner" wrote in message
...
I would say thats a good thing Paul... Did you just scoot the box
around or did you actually try flipping it over so the woofers
aim at the back of the car? And then compare that bass to
the woofers aimed UP at the rear deck or to the front of the car..

Eddie

Paul Vina wrote:

I can move the S12L5 in my wife's car ('95 Jetta) all over the trunk and

it
sounds exactly the same no matter where I put it. If I run it full

range
the lower midrange is louder but the bass sounds the same.

Paul Vina






  #46   Report Post  
Paul Vina
 
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Default Facing subs towards driver or away

That one sub could be out of phase with the mids and cause a midbass dip.



Paul Vina



"Eddie Runner" wrote in message
...
On this test I just performes we could not have hooked it up
out of polarity cause there is JUST ONE WOOFER!
http://installer.com/tech/aiming2.html

ha ha
Eddie Runner

Nousaine wrote:

Usually this type of reported experience comes with other related

changes.
Often hooking up a pair of woofers out-of-polarity will produce the

first
result.




  #47   Report Post  
narcolept
 
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Default Facing subs towards driver or away


"Paul Vina" wrote in message
newsayzb.416520$Fm2.424726@attbi_s04...
That one sub could be out of phase with the mids and cause a midbass dip.



Paul Vina


looks to me like all they used was the sub. Hence him typing "the car was
not running and the stereo not turned on"



narcolept
-------
course, I've been known to not pay attention before.








"Eddie Runner" wrote in message
...
On this test I just performes we could not have hooked it up
out of polarity cause there is JUST ONE WOOFER!
http://installer.com/tech/aiming2.html

ha ha
Eddie Runner

Nousaine wrote:

Usually this type of reported experience comes with other related

changes.
Often hooking up a pair of woofers out-of-polarity will produce the

first
result.






  #48   Report Post  
Paul Vina
 
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Default Facing subs towards driver or away

Just checking. I also noticed that when the sub was rear facing it was
*very* close to the trunk wall or hatch of the vehicle. The difference
could have been a boundary loading effect.

Eddie,
Do youguys have a smaller enclosure laying around you could try it with?




Paul Vina



"narcolept" wrote in message
t...

"Paul Vina" wrote in message
newsayzb.416520$Fm2.424726@attbi_s04...
That one sub could be out of phase with the mids and cause a midbass

dip.



Paul Vina


looks to me like all they used was the sub. Hence him typing "the car was
not running and the stereo not turned on"



narcolept
-------
course, I've been known to not pay attention before.








"Eddie Runner" wrote in message
...
On this test I just performes we could not have hooked it up
out of polarity cause there is JUST ONE WOOFER!
http://installer.com/tech/aiming2.html

ha ha
Eddie Runner

Nousaine wrote:

Usually this type of reported experience comes with other related

changes.
Often hooking up a pair of woofers out-of-polarity will produce the

first
result.








  #49   Report Post  
Eddie Runner
 
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Default Facing subs towards driver or away

THERE ARE NO MIDS Paul!

This one woofer is the ONLY speaker playing!

Oh, didnt you say you had a VW? I am tesing a Jetta
and a BUG with the same setup today, (if Im not too busy)
I will post the results.

Eddie Runner
http://www.installer.com/tech/aiming2.html

Paul Vina wrote:

That one sub could be out of phase with the mids and cause a midbass dip.

Paul Vina


  #50   Report Post  
Eddie Runner
 
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Default Actual tests - aiming woofer boxes

Here we go again!
People dont like the results of a test so they ALWAYS ask to
change the tests in the hope that the outcome comes out THEIR WAY!

Paul, last night I did two cars, I did alot more tests even with the woofer
aiming
straight up in the air and side ways with nothing close to the cone and the
results
blend right in right where I would expect it to... I think the pictures make
the
woofer box look like it is practicly touching the back of the seat but it isnt,
there
are several inches of space in there... And the woofer is just about as close
to
the rear when the trunk lid is closed!!

Remember the WHOLE POINT OF THIS is to prove Tom Noisaine is wrong
when he tells the kids (and us) that moving a woofer box around cannot
possibly make any difference to the bass... Its plain to see it DOES make a
difference!

I think Tom also tried to say that opening a door on the car wont make a
difference... We did a test with the woofer box aiming UP in the tahoe and
then did the sweep again with the passenger door open... Pretty much the
whole curve had more bass with the door open but the big difference was
a suprising SIX db at 20Hz..!! Yes 20Hz!! I may have time to format the
pictures and make a web page on the door open tests later today...

Im also hoping to do some tests on some different cars later today as well.

I guess Tom is too embarassed to post about it...ha ha
Maybe he is making his own sweeps with his PAINT PROGRAM!
ha ha

(note, I have lots of pictures and witnesses listed in my tests!!
so far Toms tests are just hearsay)...

Eddie Runner
http://www.installer.com/tech/aiming2.html



Paul Vina wrote:

Eddie,
Do youguys have a smaller enclosure laying around you could try it with?

Paul Vina




  #51   Report Post  
Eddie Runner
 
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Default Facing subs towards driver or away

maybe your just not hearing a difference...
Its obvious that SOME things (response wise) are changing
when you turn the box... I will be doing a Jettta later today....
(we even did a test with no one in the car VS one passenger
and there were tiny differences only)....

You may not hear any differences, thats OK, someone told me
a tree fell down in the forest last week and I doubt either one of
us heard that... ha ha

Eddie

Paul Vina wrote:

I've faced it in all 5 practical positions (up, left, right, front and back)
in 5 locations (all 4 corners and the middle) in the trunk.

Paul Vina


  #52   Report Post  
Paul Vina
 
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Default Facing subs towards driver or away

I have my crossover set at 80Hz witha 24dB/octave slope so maybe there is an
upper bass change I'm not hearing. But if there is a difference in the
upper bass it won't matter since my sub isn't playing that freq. so maving
the sub didn't matter in my case. If someone had a higher cutoff maybe it
will make a difference.

Post those Jetta results. I'd like to see how it comes out.



Paul Vina



"Eddie Runner" wrote in message
...
maybe your just not hearing a difference...
Its obvious that SOME things (response wise) are changing
when you turn the box... I will be doing a Jettta later today....
(we even did a test with no one in the car VS one passenger
and there were tiny differences only)....

You may not hear any differences, thats OK, someone told me
a tree fell down in the forest last week and I doubt either one of
us heard that... ha ha

Eddie

Paul Vina wrote:

I've faced it in all 5 practical positions (up, left, right, front and

back)
in 5 locations (all 4 corners and the middle) in the trunk.

Paul Vina




  #53   Report Post  
Paul Vina
 
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Default Actual tests - aiming woofer boxes

Here we go again!
People dont like the results of a test so they ALWAYS ask to
change the tests in the hope that the outcome comes out THEIR WAY!



Tha's not what I was getting at. I was just wondering if that might have
skewed the results. I know it's impossible to control every aspect of the
tests, but if we can eliminate something that's known to increase bass
output, like boudary or corner loading, it will give a truer result.
I have no problems with the results. I've seen some cars that change a lot
and some that don't. Call me the devil's advocate.


Paul Vina




  #54   Report Post  
Paul Vina
 
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Default Facing subs towards driver or away

I missed that part. My bad. Whatyear is the Jetta? My wife's is a '95.



Paul Vina



"Eddie Runner" wrote in message
...
THERE ARE NO MIDS Paul!

This one woofer is the ONLY speaker playing!

Oh, didnt you say you had a VW? I am tesing a Jetta
and a BUG with the same setup today, (if Im not too busy)
I will post the results.

Eddie Runner
http://www.installer.com/tech/aiming2.html

Paul Vina wrote:

That one sub could be out of phase with the mids and cause a midbass

dip.

Paul Vina




  #55   Report Post  
Eddie Runner
 
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Default Actual tests - aiming woofer boxes

Paul,
Boundys OBVIOUSLY affect soundwaves... Thats a fact!
CARS have boundries ON ALL SIDES that are reletivly
(compared to bass wavelengths) close and WILL affect the sounds
to some extent no matter WHERE you put a woofer!

IN FACT, boundys and the relationship to the woofer is
EXACTLY what this whole discussion is about!!!!!!!!

Are you finally starting to see??? Haleluya!

Paul Vina wrote:

Here we go again!
People dont like the results of a test so they ALWAYS ask to
change the tests in the hope that the outcome comes out THEIR WAY!


Tha's not what I was getting at. I was just wondering if that might have
skewed the results. I know it's impossible to control every aspect of the
tests, but if we can eliminate something that's known to increase bass
output, like boudary or corner loading, it will give a truer result.
I have no problems with the results. I've seen some cars that change a lot
and some that don't. Call me the devil's advocate.

Paul Vina




  #56   Report Post  
Eddie Runner
 
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Default Facing subs towards driver or away

its a 96 Jetta, results of the jetta are now on the page.
http://www.installer.com/tech/aiming2.html

I also did DOOR OPEN and TRUNK OPEN sweeps
with the Jetta and published those results as well.

Bring your car by and we will do yours! ;-)

Eddie Runner

Paul Vina wrote:

I missed that part. My bad. Whatyear is the Jetta? My wife's is a '95.

Paul Vina


  #57   Report Post  
Eddie Runner
 
Posts: n/a
Default Jetta results now posted Facing subs towards driver or away

Jetta results are now posted!
http://www.installer.com/tech/aiming2.html

Paul Vina wrote:

I have my crossover set at 80Hz witha 24dB/octave slope so maybe there is an
upper bass change I'm not hearing. But if there is a difference in the
upper bass it won't matter since my sub isn't playing that freq. so maving
the sub didn't matter in my case. If someone had a higher cutoff maybe it
will make a difference.

Post those Jetta results. I'd like to see how it comes out.

Paul Vina

"Eddie Runner" wrote in message
...
maybe your just not hearing a difference...
Its obvious that SOME things (response wise) are changing
when you turn the box... I will be doing a Jettta later today....
(we even did a test with no one in the car VS one passenger
and there were tiny differences only)....

You may not hear any differences, thats OK, someone told me
a tree fell down in the forest last week and I doubt either one of
us heard that... ha ha

Eddie

Paul Vina wrote:

I've faced it in all 5 practical positions (up, left, right, front and

back)
in 5 locations (all 4 corners and the middle) in the trunk.

Paul Vina



  #58   Report Post  
Nousaine
 
Posts: n/a
Default Actual tests - aiming woofer boxes

Eddie Runner wrote:


Here we go again!
People dont like the results of a test so they ALWAYS ask to
change the tests in the hope that the outcome comes out THEIR WAY!

Paul, last night I did two cars, I did alot more tests even with the woofer
aiming
straight up in the air and side ways with nothing close to the cone and the
results
blend right in right where I would expect it to... I think the pictures make
the
woofer box look like it is practicly touching the back of the seat but it
isnt,
there
are several inches of space in there... And the woofer is just about as close
to
the rear when the trunk lid is closed!!

Remember the WHOLE POINT OF THIS is to prove Tom Noisaine is wrong
when he tells the kids (and us) that moving a woofer box around cannot
possibly make any difference to the bass... Its plain to see it DOES make a
difference!


As your graphs clearly point out the significant changes they do make occur
above 80 Hz. As I've pointed out before.

One other interesting point that shouldn't slip away here is that your
"diagram" says that there are "standing wave" effects that occur at 60 Hz in
your example. Indeed these results clearly show that below 80 Hz in this car
there are no standing wave cancellations or frequency dependent effects of any
kind.

I think Tom also tried to say that opening a door on the car wont make a
difference... We did a test with the woofer box aiming UP in the tahoe and
then did the sweep again with the passenger door open... Pretty much the
whole curve had more bass with the door open but the big difference was
a suprising SIX db at 20Hz..!! Yes 20Hz!!


I said that opening the hatch or trunk on a car doesn't increase bass in the
car. Your data clearly shows that as well.

I may have time to format the
pictures and make a web page on the door open tests later today...

Im also hoping to do some tests on some different cars later today as well.

I guess Tom is too embarassed to post about it...ha ha
Maybe he is making his own sweeps with his PAINT PROGRAM!
ha ha

(note, I have lots of pictures and witnesses listed in my tests!!
so far Toms tests are just hearsay)...

Eddie Runner
http://www.installer.com/tech/aiming2.html

I've shared that data with interested parties. By the way, my past work
confirms Vina's experience. Moving an enclosure around in the trunk of a small
car doesn't change the bass (60 hz and downward) inside the cabin.


Paul Vina wrote:

Eddie,
Do youguys have a smaller enclosure laying around you could try it with?

Paul Vina


  #59   Report Post  
Paul Vina
 
Posts: n/a
Default Actual tests - aiming woofer boxes

Wow, I would have thought the bug would have made a bigger difference that
the other cars. Your graphs on the Jetta confirmed my suspicions about my
wife's car. If the cutoff was higher it'd make a much bigger difference.


Paul Vina



"Eddie Runner" wrote in message
...
Paul,
Boundys OBVIOUSLY affect soundwaves... Thats a fact!
CARS have boundries ON ALL SIDES that are reletivly
(compared to bass wavelengths) close and WILL affect the sounds
to some extent no matter WHERE you put a woofer!

IN FACT, boundys and the relationship to the woofer is
EXACTLY what this whole discussion is about!!!!!!!!

Are you finally starting to see??? Haleluya!

Paul Vina wrote:

Here we go again!
People dont like the results of a test so they ALWAYS ask to
change the tests in the hope that the outcome comes out THEIR WAY!


Tha's not what I was getting at. I was just wondering if that might

have
skewed the results. I know it's impossible to control every aspect of

the
tests, but if we can eliminate something that's known to increase bass
output, like boudary or corner loading, it will give a truer result.
I have no problems with the results. I've seen some cars that change a

lot
and some that don't. Call me the devil's advocate.

Paul Vina




  #60   Report Post  
Paul Vina
 
Posts: n/a
Default Actual tests - aiming woofer boxes

I said that opening the hatch or trunk on a car doesn't increase bass in
the
car. Your data clearly shows that as well.



HUH???? The Jetta graph shows a LOT more output above 50Hz with the trunk
open.



Paul Vina





  #61   Report Post  
Paul Vina
 
Posts: n/a
Default Facing subs towards driver or away

I'm not driving to Texas from N. CA for a test but if I'm ever in the area
I'm definitely going to drop by.



Paul Vina



"Eddie Runner" wrote in message
...
its a 96 Jetta, results of the jetta are now on the page.
http://www.installer.com/tech/aiming2.html

I also did DOOR OPEN and TRUNK OPEN sweeps
with the Jetta and published those results as well.

Bring your car by and we will do yours! ;-)

Eddie Runner

Paul Vina wrote:

I missed that part. My bad. Whatyear is the Jetta? My wife's is a

'95.

Paul Vina




  #64   Report Post  
Eddie Runner
 
Posts: n/a
Default Actual tests - aiming woofer boxes

maybe the bugs round shape prevents such sharp reflections
that cancel.. I mean none of the panels are parallel to any others
so the standing wave cancelation is much less than if we have
straight walls like alot of cars... It kind of confirms my original
theory I think....

But even still, in EVERY CAR at nearly EVERY FREQUENCY
in the sweeps, the box aiming backward was LOUDER than the box
aiming forward... And dont forget Our buddy Tom Nouisaine has
always said IT WONT MAKE ANY DIFFERENCE!!!
ha ha ha

I guess he is sucking hind tit now....
ha ha ha

Eddie Runner
ps, dont believe what you read in the stereo magazines, Tom mighta wrote it!
ha ha ha


Paul Vina wrote:

Wow, I would have thought the bug would have made a bigger difference that
the other cars. Your graphs on the Jetta confirmed my suspicions about my
wife's car. If the cutoff was higher it'd make a much bigger difference.

Paul Vina

"Eddie Runner" wrote in message
...
Paul,
Boundys OBVIOUSLY affect soundwaves... Thats a fact!
CARS have boundries ON ALL SIDES that are reletivly
(compared to bass wavelengths) close and WILL affect the sounds
to some extent no matter WHERE you put a woofer!

IN FACT, boundys and the relationship to the woofer is
EXACTLY what this whole discussion is about!!!!!!!!

Are you finally starting to see??? Haleluya!

Paul Vina wrote:

Here we go again!
People dont like the results of a test so they ALWAYS ask to
change the tests in the hope that the outcome comes out THEIR WAY!

Tha's not what I was getting at. I was just wondering if that might

have
skewed the results. I know it's impossible to control every aspect of

the
tests, but if we can eliminate something that's known to increase bass
output, like boudary or corner loading, it will give a truer result.
I have no problems with the results. I've seen some cars that change a

lot
and some that don't. Call me the devil's advocate.

Paul Vina



  #65   Report Post  
Eddie Runner
 
Posts: n/a
Default Toms changing his story now! Actual tests - aiming woofer boxes

Nousaine wrote:

One other interesting point that shouldn't slip away here is that your
"diagram" says that there are "standing wave" effects that occur at 60 Hz in
your example. Indeed these results clearly show that below 80 Hz in this car
there are no standing wave cancellations or frequency dependent effects of any
kind.


Bull****!
ON ALL THE GRAPHS, http://www.installer.com/tech/aiming2.html
at nearly every frequency, the box aimed to the
rear is louder!! Now your using the word "SIGNIFICANT" so you can
say, its just a few Db, and to you its not significant! ha ha ha... Read back
on your old posts TOMMY BOY, you have said MANY times that it wont
make any difference at all... Now your changing your story to say it aint
much change.... ha ha To alot of folks a few Db is A BUNCH!

Hell Tom, when you DOUBLE YOUR AMP POWER and get 3dB!!
Turning your box around backward may get you MORE than that with
no cost!!! And your trying to say its insignificant!!
ha ha ha

LOOSER!

Eddie Runner
http://www.installer.com/tech/



  #66   Report Post  
Eddie Runner
 
Posts: n/a
Default Tom LIES like a snake Actual tests - aiming woofer boxes

Nousaine wrote:

I said that opening the hatch or trunk on a car doesn't increase bass in the
car. Your data clearly shows that as well.


Are you ****ING BLIND????
At 50Hz the trunk open gives you about 3dB!!!
At 60Hz the trunk open gives you about 6 or 7dB!!!

How can you tell these lies????

The chart does not lie!
http://www.installer.com/tech/aiming2.html

Eddie Runner

  #67   Report Post  
Eddie Runner
 
Posts: n/a
Default TOM WAFFLES about aiming ! Actual tests - aiming woofer boxes

Nousaine wrote:

By the way, my past work
confirms Vina's experience. Moving an enclosure around in the trunk of a small
car doesn't change the bass (60 hz and downward) inside the cabin.


Tom, your waffling here like a ****ty politician!!!

You have always said it doesnt make any difference no matter how
big the car, remember I was always saying your Corvette was small
and thet was why you couldnt see the difference the rest of us can hear
in a normal sized car... Now your finally seeing my point and your
trying to change your story so you look like you have been saying it
that way all along....

And here is a small quote from you last week that proves it

Tom Wrote:
Because acoustic sounds at subwoofer frequencies (approximately 100 Hz) are
omnidirectional the SPL/Frequency response will be uneffected either way.


Now look at the charts http://www.installer.com/tech/aiming2.html
and the HUGE, I mean HUGE cancelation at 100Hz on some of the cars!!!
Do you see it???
Its about 27dB on the NEON !!!!!!!!!
TOM! Thats like changing from a 100watt amp to a 51200 watt amp!!!

In the past you said there is no difference in turning the box around
Now your saying there is no sifnificant difference...
COME ON TOM!!
27dB is pretty ****in significant!!!

The Tahoe has about a 4dB difference at 100Hz
thats also pretty significant...

The Jetta has about a 28 or 29dB difference at 100Hz!
Holly ****!!

And even the Bug has a good 5dB diffference at 95Hz...


Now Tom, kids have been telling you on this thread that they
hear a difference when they turn thier box to the back of the car,
you have always told them it is IMPOSSIBLE! They must be
mistaking the midrange.. Or the other day you told a guy he
must have had his speakers out of phase !! (remember that?)
NOW, this graph proves there are HUGE differences!!
ADMIT YOU WERE WRONG!!!
(we will respect you more if you admit you learned something)

Eddie Runner
http://www.installer.com/tech/




  #68   Report Post  
Eddie Runner
 
Posts: n/a
Default Your right Paul! Actual tests - aiming woofer boxes

Paul,
Tom doesnt want to admit what we all see in the graph.
He has been tellingus for years that there is not and cannot
possibly be any difference at all if we reposition our woofer box.

Do you expect him to come clean???
ha ha ha

Paul Vina wrote:

I said that opening the hatch or trunk on a car doesn't increase bass in

the
car. Your data clearly shows that as well.


HUH???? The Jetta graph shows a LOT more output above 50Hz with the trunk
open.

Paul Vina


  #69   Report Post  
Eddie Runner
 
Posts: n/a
Default Come on Down! Facing subs towards driver or away

I wish you would...
This damn LMS stuff cost me a fortune, I would love it if I
could use it more than we do now...

I bought it years ago and had the DOS program which really
sucked...We didnt use it very often and when we did I always
had trouble remembering how to configure the machine when
changing from SPL sweeps to speaker impedence measurements
(it does that real well also)
The other day I went ahead and bought the NEW windows version
of the software and did some substancial upgrades on the computer
with the LMS card in it ... Now it works easy as PIE!
Wish I had more stuff to measure...

ha ha ha

Eddie Runner
I guess it was worth it to make Tom eat his words and learn
something....

Paul Vina wrote:

I'm not driving to Texas from N. CA for a test but if I'm ever in the area
I'm definitely going to drop by.

Paul Vina


  #70   Report Post  
Nousaine
 
Posts: n/a
Default Tom LIES like a snake Actual tests - aiming woofer boxes

Eddie Runner wrote:



Nousaine wrote:

I said that opening the hatch or trunk on a car doesn't increase bass in

the
car. Your data clearly shows that as well.


Are you ****ING BLIND????
At 50Hz the trunk open gives you about 3dB!!!
At 60Hz the trunk open gives you about 6 or 7dB!!!

How can you tell these lies????

The chart does not lie!
http://www.installer.com/tech/aiming2.html

Eddie Runner


Eddie I've done all these experiments before. I find it quite interesting that
in your web-site you 'explain' all this as related to standing waves. If that
were true than we wouldn't have the condition in many of your graphs that
simply looks like a level differences (curve shifted up at all frequencies
relatively equally) the differences would be frequency dependent. IOW we can't
have identical standing wave cancellation patterns at all frequencies because
the wavelengths are not equal and couldn't have the same cancellation effect.

Now let's clear up a few mistaken comments about what I've said. In a small
space like a car (or a room) below the lowest modal frequency the driver just
pressurizes the interior space and the location of the source isn't a factor.

This is because the wavelengths involved are so long that standing waves won't
form. In a 12 x 22 foot room that frequency is 26 Hz.

In my Corvette (although a 2-seater, the 25-cubic feet hatch area gives it
roughly the same interior space as other vehilces such as an Acura Integra,
Dodge Spirit, Camaro, etc) this frequency is 60 Hz.

In a smaller car (CRX) it's somewhat higher. In a significantl larger car
(minivan, some SUVS) it's lower. In a full size van it may be 45 Hz.

Below those frequencies subwoofer placement is irrelevant. I've also duplicated
you "cartoon" diagram and things do not work as you claim.

There's no 60 Hz cancellation at 3-feet. There's no difference in response
below 60 Hz and the main difference between the woofer facing the wall and
facing the microphone 3-feet from the wall is more midrange.

I'm glad you are finally doing some real measurements. When you get around to
it, why not stop making this stuff up? You may learn something.

Such as the loss of low frequency cabin gain in the graph with the trunk open
greatly decreasing low frequencies inside the car.

The lack of modal effects below about 100 Hz with all closed door measurements.
The way to match levels properly to get data that can be anayzed. To average
results. To watch for contaminating environmental effects at very low
frequencies.

Keep it up. Why not expand your measurment bandwidth so you can see real
standing wave effects?


  #71   Report Post  
Eddie Runner
 
Posts: n/a
Default Measuring audio bandwidth

Nousaine wrote:

. Why not expand your measurment bandwidth so you can see real
standing wave effects?


I intentionally cut the osscilator off at 120Hz for these tests because alot
of folks were specificly talking about BASS below the normal xover frequncy.
I thought 120 was a fair average, some do it higher and some do it lower.

I didnt want to muddy up the facts with irrelevant facts...
What I mean is, if I had used higher frequencies it would give you something
to YAK about to help hide the fact that you were so wrong about
repositioning the box in a car. You have always said it makes no
difference which way the woofer box is oriented but now we all know you
are wrong...

When we move on into the subject of higher frequencies I will share
some graphs that show higher standing waves and the comb effects.

Tom, I dont know why you are acting like I am new to this..??
I have been taking measurements like this from cars for over 20 years,
(and the RF spectrum for 30 years)
in the early days audio with a meter and plotting a limited number of points
into a computer by hand so the computer could draw the graph for
storage. Not long after with RTAs and eventually with the LMS system
originally with thier DOS program but upgraded to the new windows version
just the other day...

Eddie Runner
http://www.installer.com/tech/aiming2.html



  #72   Report Post  
Eddie Runner
 
Posts: n/a
Default He has done it all before! NOT!! ha ha

Nousaine wrote:

Eddie I've done all these experiments before.


Oh???????????
So why have you always insisted that woofer box
orientation makes no difference at all??

If you have already done
these tests and know damn well that it does make a difference??

I have been saving your old posts for over a year now Tom with
the expectation in me eventually publishing these tests on the web
site to prove all your bull**** wrong... Shall I start quoting you,
or will you simply admit that moving a woofer box around in a car
or more precisely, turning a woofer box to the rear can actaully
make a great deal of difference in the bass in the car...??


Eddie Runner
http://www.installer.com/tech/

  #73   Report Post  
Eddie Runner
 
Posts: n/a
Default Tom Accuses Eddie of Lieing about the tests!!

Nousaine wrote:

I find it quite interesting that
in your web-site you 'explain' all this as related to standing waves. If that
were true than we wouldn't have the condition in many of your graphs that
simply looks like a level differences (curve shifted up at all frequencies
relatively equally) the differences would be frequency dependent. IOW we can't
have identical standing wave cancellation patterns at all frequencies because
the wavelengths are not equal and couldn't have the same cancellation effect.


Tom, the way I read that is that you are accusing me of changing
the levels of the output to the speakers.....

I have witnesses that were here when we did the tests, the only change
was the orientation of the box and the changing of the trace color in
the program... The sweeps are EXACTLY the same output levels to
the amp and the amp was NOT touched at all!

I thought you had said you did all these tests before and your results
were just like mine....????

Now your saying something different and accusing me of lieing about
the settings in my tests....!!!

Come on down lemme show you how this stuff works...
And I mean ANYONE!
If your in the Houston area, or going to be passing through
lemme know and I can demonstrate these tests to you!!
Or you can contact the witnesses (listed in the tests) by phone
or email if you wish...

Eddie Runner
http://www.installer.com/tech/

I know Tom would resort to LOW BLOWS.....

  #74   Report Post  
Eddie Runner
 
Posts: n/a
Default Pressure field

Nousaine wrote:

Now let's clear up a few mistaken comments about what I've said. In a small
space like a car (or a room) below the lowest modal frequency the driver just
pressurizes the interior space and the location of the source isn't a factor.

This is because the wavelengths involved are so long that standing waves won't
form. In a 12 x 22 foot room that frequency is 26 Hz.


Its not that they WONT form, the wave still propogates the listening area
there are UPS and DOWNS to the sine waves... The difference and
definition of the pressure wave is that reletivly ALL of the listeing area is
a positive pressure or negative pressure at once because the wave is so
long...

Now to find out what size space can be subject to a pressure wave
the whole place must be about the same pressure, so for a 18 ft long
wave (about 60Hz) and 18 ft space would NOT be a pressure wave!
Because of the simple fact that there is a whole wave in there at any time,
the UP and the DOWN of the sine wave (360degrees).

Lets change the space to 1/2 the size, a 9 ft space... Still it cannot be
a pressure field because there is 180 degees of change in the space..
Still not relativly all the same pressre is it??? Nope....

Now lets cut it in half again Tom... 4.5ft.... Much smaller than most
cars I think.... And still we have 90 degrees of phase shift.... Even at
this point I would have a hard time calling it a pressure field....

Cut it in half again and its about 2ft.... Were sure getting close to a
pressure field now, but I dont know anyone with a 2ft car interior..
And we still have 45 degrees of the wave in the car... so is it really
a pressure field??? At this point it could be argues for or against
about equally (IMO)....

Cut it in half again and at about 1ft and only 1/16th of a wavelength
I might agree with you now.... Still 22.5 degrees of phase difference
between one end of the space and the other though... Still not a perfect
pressure field is it??

Now to your 26Hz you mentioned above...
Were talking about Car Stereo TOM... My paper that talks
about standing waves in a car is writen and referenced to 60Hz.

Certainly the pressure wave of a 26Hz wave would be much larger
than a 60 Hz pressure wave... It could happen in a larger space at
that frequency....
Lets run through it anyway
50ft = 360 degrees
25ft = 180 degrees
12ft = 90 degrees
6ft = 45 degrees
3ft = 22 degrees

Which one of those is a true pressure wave???

Finally Tom wants to talk Tech....

Eddie Runner
http://www.installer.com/tech/

  #75   Report Post  
Eddie Runner
 
Posts: n/a
Default CANCELLATION at 60Hz and standing wave facts....

Nousaine wrote:

There's no 60 Hz cancellation at 3-feet.


Tom....

Lets pretend were in an open field
There is a woofer in a box thats playing a 60Hz tone and its about 5 ft from us.
There is another woofer 9 ft beyond the first woofer that we can turn on and off
the second woofer plays the exact tone from the same amp as the first woofer.

Now when we turn the second woofer on, so it plays along with
the first woofer are we going to hear MORE 60Hz sound or less sound???


?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????

Come on Tom..
This example makes it easy....

The second wave travels 9ft before it gets to the first wave now
both waves are coming at you together!

At 60hz this will put the two waves aprox 180degrees out of
phase with each other....

So the resulting sound to your listening position is reduced with
the second speaker playing....

Im sure your with me so far TOM....

------------------------------------ NOW!

The sound from the first woofer goes in all directions, so it not only
comes at you it goes in all directions. it did in the first example but
because we were in an open field the sound just went off and was
eventually lost, with the exception of the sound that came directly to us.

Lets loose the second speaker and instead build a wall at 1/2 the distance
about 4.5 ft behind the first woofer....

Some sound that goes out of the first woofer comes to us
and some hits the wall and bounces to us....

That *bounced sound* has traveled the same 9 ft (to the wall (4.5
and back (another 4.5)) and will be just like the sound from the
second woofer thats not there anymore.... ;-)

Now are you getting it Tom??

The bounced wave, is 180 degrees out of phase with the first wave
so the sound WITH THE WALL will be less sound that WITHOUT
THE WALL....

This is (even though you dont believe me) a standing wave.!


I dont know how you can miss this Tom...
Maybe you want to ignore it or something because you dont want
to appear to be WRONG in all your previous statements....

BTW, the wall would have to be further away at lower frrequencies
and closer for higher frquencies.....

About 14ft at 20Hz
about 2 ft at 120 Hz

SO the range of my sweeps cover standing wave cancelation
from 2ft and longer.. ;-)

Get it now TOM??

Eddie Runner
http://www.installer.com/tech/









  #76   Report Post  
Eddie Runner
 
Posts: n/a
Default Tom is feeling bad about being wrong so now he is makingup stuff to getthe heat off...

Nousaine wrote:

I'm glad you are finally doing some real measurements. When you get around to
it, why not stop making this stuff up? You may learn something.


I cant believe your saying that....
Im not the one making stuff up, these tests were legit!

Now your the one that has shown NO scientific proof....

Remember when I scanned the Banecek book to prove you wrong?
You still havent given us ANYTHING!!
NOTTA!!

butyou have the nuts to tell me to stop making stuff up...

ha ha ha

  #77   Report Post  
Nousaine
 
Posts: n/a
Default Measuring audio bandwidth

Eddie Runner wrote:

Nousaine wrote:

. Why not expand your measurment bandwidth so you can see real
standing wave effects?


I intentionally cut the osscilator off at 120Hz for these tests because alot
of folks were specificly talking about BASS below the normal xover frequncy.
I thought 120 was a fair average, some do it higher and some do it lower.

I didnt want to muddy up the facts with irrelevant facts...


Now you know that whatever effects that exist below 100 Hz will still be
visible. don't you?


What I mean is, if I had used higher frequencies it would give you something
to YAK about to help hide the fact that you were so wrong about
repositioning the box in a car. You have always said it makes no
difference which way the woofer box is oriented but now we all know you
are wrong...


I've said it makes no difference below the lowest modal frequency in the cabin.
You conveniently forget to include that part.

And nice try at splitting my post into smaller pieces so you can build more
strawman arguments.


When we move on into the subject of higher frequencies I will share
some graphs that show higher standing waves and the comb effects.

Tom, I dont know why you are acting like I am new to this..??
I have been taking measurements like this from cars for over 20 years,
(and the RF spectrum for 30 years)
in the early days audio with a meter and plotting a limited number of points
into a computer by hand so the computer could draw the graph for
storage. Not long after with RTAs and eventually with the LMS system
originally with thier DOS program but upgraded to the new windows version
just the other day...


Makes me wonder why you hadn't posted results before.


  #79   Report Post  
Eddie Runner
 
Posts: n/a
Default Measuring audio bandwidth

Nousaine wrote:

Now you know that whatever effects that exist below 100 Hz will still be
visible. don't you?


Now I know?????
(I have always known that)

Are you trying to turn this moment where I proved
what I have been telling you for over a year is right
into something that makes it look like YOU TAUGHT ME
SOMETHING!!!????

HA HA HA!!!

Your the one that said turning a woofer box to the rear can make
NO DIFFERENCE!! ALot of folks tried to tell you it did but
you kept right on saying IT MADE NO DIFFERENCE!! You
went so far as to tell them they must be hooking thier woofers
up out of phase when they turned them around.....
Now that I have published the results of some sweeps I made
you have the gall to act like YOU TAUGHT ME SOMETHING!!

HA HA HA

Face the facts!
Dont try to claim they were your facts all along!
I have captures of your messages (as does GOOGLE)
for well over a year....

You CHUMP!

  #80   Report Post  
Eddie Runner
 
Posts: n/a
Default Measuring audio bandwidth

Nousaine wrote:

I've said it makes no difference below the lowest modal frequency in the cabin.
You conveniently forget to include that part.


You have also said it wont matter below 100HZ.
You have also said it wont matter in car woofers if they are crossed over.
And my sweeps show a difference in most of the swweps all the
way down to 20Hz!

You said it wont happen!
My charts show it happens at pretty much ALL tested frequencies!

Why do you ignore the sweeps???

(click on them for a larger view if you need it)

Eddie Runner

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