Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #81   Report Post  
John Durbin
 
Posts: n/a
Default Installers are you and I

Here's something I don't understand, either... look at the emerging
custom home A/V industry as an example, there are endless opportunities
for training sponsored by the industry's trade organization and many
others, including manufacturer support. It makes it much, much easier to
be on top of the products and technologies and to improve your
professionalism. Mobile audio has so few of these opportunities, it's as
though they just don't want to pull people up and forward any more.
Discouraging, it is...

JD

Masterson wrote:

I'm with Ed on this - I think you are overstating your position and in
the process doing an injustice to many installers around the world that
ARE better at their jobs than you are giving them credit for.



John...I agree with you, that I agree with Ed. I think there are plenty of
good installers in my area. People who take the time to understand a
problem
and give it a long term solution. There are so many things about working on
cars that people just don't understand. It's not easy.


Mark....you have a great sense of this industry. I have read ten's of
posts from you that correct and helpful. but.....


As an "outside observer" looking in from a customer's point of view,


that being said, you need to remember that you don't know the entire
story. I would bet none of us do, in regards to the original post.




I just don't see the expertise and dedication to putting out quality work
that I saw, say, 5 or 10 years ago.



Here, with this statement I agree with you. The education level has
decreased, car technology has greatly increased, profits have disappeared
from the industry, the OEM systems are vastly improved. All of these
factors have lead to people not getting paid enough to have a level
of education and customer service that most people demand. The only
way for a service industry to survive is by making money. I think its
really that simple. Without paying a decent amount, the employee
behind the counter can't earn a living, and he wont give a damn about
your car. Or learn new things. He will get another job, and let the
next 17 year old fill his position.








  #82   Report Post  
John Durbin
 
Posts: n/a
Default Installers are you and I

Yeah, and then there's those of us that know exactly what "most" means
and just don't agree with you.

Have you ever been a retail salesman? In a business that pays anything
worth mentioning? It ain't easy... I think there is lots of room for
improvement in not just the 12V industry, but virtually ALL industries
that rely in retail salespeople. However, until you've tried it, you
ought to restrain the urge to crap all over the whole profession - it's
a bitch of a way to make a living in my opinion. Which probably has a
lot to do with why the good ones move up and away from the floor more
often than not.

I'll also point out that I'd be surprised if you didn't hold this
opinion. After reading RAC and its prevailing winds for as many years as
I have, this is a group that is overrun with people that despise retail
salespeople for the most part and almost certainly they do not go into a
retail environment/experience with anything that resembles an open mind.
You get what you expect, in other words...

JD

Mark Zarella wrote:

I think the ones that are defending their installation profession probably
represent the 'good' installers/car audio shops that are out there. But


at


the same time I agree with Mark in the fact that it is hard to come by
'good' installers across the board. I've only had two installations done


by


someone other than myself. The first time was years ago when I first got
into this and I didn't know all the nuances of car audio. I traded in the
vehicle so I had to reverse engineer what the installer did and realized
that this wasn't rocket science. Then I started doing it myself. The
second instance was during the winter time and I didn't have the ability


to


do it myself so I found a place to do it. Both of my experiences were


fine


though.

But, there have been times where I gone in asking detailed questions about
products only to get blown off by the salesperson or told that there is no
such product when I know there was. Another occasion I was told by the
owner of the store that I didn't know nothing about T/S parameters and I


had


them all wrong. One other time the guy was trying to get me to ditch what


I


currently had and jump full bore into some $1500 system.

It's definitely a hit/miss situation. I usually don't bother with the


local


shops nowadays unless I need a part or something straightforward.



Salesman are another story entirely. Most of them have no installation
experience, and don't know a damned thing about anything.

Again, I'll probably be criticized for this too because someone will come
along and not know the difference between the words "most" and "all".





  #83   Report Post  
Mark Zarella
 
Posts: n/a
Default I know how installers work

Ok. I don't get the national picture. I guess the only valid conclusion
then is that the area where I currently live and the area where I last lived
are completely void of any competent installers. As I mentioned elsewhere
in the thread, in my area there is not a single shop that advertises in the
yellow pages that can do a competent front door component installation in my
car. I've checked them all. All but two said that it could not be done.
One wanted $50 just for an estimate. The other did the work, and it came
out subpar in almost every conceivable way. Note that I've done the install
correctly in an almost identical car (installation-wise) with very similar
equipment. I know it can be done.

Where I lived last I never needed any work done in my own car. But I had
work done for others' cars at various points, so I know what the local
market was doing there as well. When you face incompetence and outright
deception as often as I did, it's not unreasonable to assume that there's a
large contingent of ripoff artists and ignorant people out there working on
cars. A monkey can put in a radio. But when it comes to having custom work
done, especially front speaker installations, I just think the talent level
is severely lacking. At least in the parts of NY and MA that I've queried.

"John Durbin" wrote in message
...
I have probably less direct contact with installers as a customer than
you - beyond the fact that I typically do my own installs anyway (17
years of practice has to be good for something), I haven't taken a car
to a shop in a long time. However, both my kids have several times in
the last few years, and overall were treated well by the businesses.

Beyond that, I do have the inside track on what our 14 or so techs feel
on this subject, and they spend hours on the phone with installers all

day.

Only thing that I will agree HAS changed is it now takes just minutes to
get on the internet and complain about a bad retail experience - not
saying some of those aren't legitimate mind you - and instantly
thousands and thousands of people have read that info and possibly
changed their opinion of the profession.

Hell, I just read a thread about a guy that had a bad experience from
taking his car to what I know personally to be one of the best shops in
the area. Everyone has a bad day occasionally, but that's not grounds
for indicting the whole industry.

JD

Mark Zarella wrote:

I'm with Ed on this - I think you are overstating your position and in
the process doing an injustice to many installers around the world that
ARE better at their jobs than you are giving them credit for.



Many? As an "outside observer" looking in from a customer's point of

view,
I just don't see the expertise and dedication to putting out quality work
that I saw, say, 5 or 10 years ago. I just don't think these people take
pride in it anymore. Of course there are some that do, and some that are
very good at what they do. I never said there wasn't. But from my own
observations, I think the percentage of good installers is rapidly
dwindling.







  #84   Report Post  
John Durbin
 
Posts: n/a
Default installers SUCK!

My all-time favorite:

I'm running a crappy install dept. for a now-defunct high
volume/mediocre quality place, around 1985 I think.

Part of the job is issuing RA #'s for the store before they'll take back
any 12V product that was sold over the counter. This guy walks in one
day with a Coustic radio. Now, this is not what you would call a quality
device, it may even have been a refurb since we sold plenty of that junk
at the time.

The guy hands me the radio and says: "They told me to get an RA from you
so I can exchange this - it doesn;t work at all."

My response: "Ok, I just need to plug it in on our bench and verify that
it's DOA"

Now, keep in mind I have NO attitude at all - with this POS stereo, the
guy is probably right.

His response to me: "That's not necessary, I checked it myself and I'm
an electrical engineer"

NOW we're having fun, he just got my attention! I asked him politely:
"Really? What kind of stuff do you work on?"

Answer: "Organs" (the kind they used to sell in all the malls)

So I said, no worries but I do need to do this check so I can give you
the RA. So, I hook this thing up, and it works just awesome. He gives me
the usual, well it must be intermittent because when I (that's a big
capital I) put it in, it wasn;t working.

To make a long story end (can't make it short now), the guy never hooked
up the ground wire. I guess he figured that it should get grounded from
mounting it in his plastic dashboard.

I have met some great DIY types, ended up working with some of them that
got into the industry. I started that way myself, as did many of us.

BUT, Eddie is right - I've never seen ANY professional installations
that could compare with:

Battery cable from amp connected to positive terminal with Visegrips
(uninsulated ones at that). I think he had also routed it out of the
car's passenger compartment through the door opening, into the fender.

Or, all the wires in the molex plug on the back of a stock radio
attached to the little 1/8 pins with bare, uninsulated alligator clamps
- dude had actually taken the time to connect about 12 of them, and very
carefully slid them onto the pins. It was actually working, most of the
time. Wouldn't have taken any bets on the service life of that radio's
output chips though.

JD

Eddie Runner wrote:

Oh, and Durbin can probalby back me up on this one..

Generally stuff installed by do it yourselfers is FAR WORSE
that stuff installed professionally!!

Many brands discourage self installation just cause they
know customers burn up way more gear than pro installers do...








  #85   Report Post  
John Durbin
 
Posts: n/a
Default I know how installers work

I was going to write this: "What part of the world are you in? I would
be glad to recommend it to anyone I run into that's looking for a good
retail opportunity."

But, having seen the reference to NY and MA, I am now having a HUGE
problem believing that there are not ANY competent shops in those very
heavily populated areas. The good people at Rich Inferrera's Car Tunes
come to mind... and I am sure I could call a couple of people I know
that live in MA and come up with several more qualified referrals.

JD

Mark Zarella wrote:

Ok. I don't get the national picture. I guess the only valid conclusion
then is that the area where I currently live and the area where I last lived
are completely void of any competent installers. As I mentioned elsewhere
in the thread, in my area there is not a single shop that advertises in the
yellow pages that can do a competent front door component installation in my
car. I've checked them all. All but two said that it could not be done.
One wanted $50 just for an estimate. The other did the work, and it came
out subpar in almost every conceivable way. Note that I've done the install
correctly in an almost identical car (installation-wise) with very similar
equipment. I know it can be done.

Where I lived last I never needed any work done in my own car. But I had
work done for others' cars at various points, so I know what the local
market was doing there as well. When you face incompetence and outright
deception as often as I did, it's not unreasonable to assume that there's a
large contingent of ripoff artists and ignorant people out there working on
cars. A monkey can put in a radio. But when it comes to having custom work
done, especially front speaker installations, I just think the talent level
is severely lacking. At least in the parts of NY and MA that I've queried.

"John Durbin" wrote in message
.. .


I have probably less direct contact with installers as a customer than
you - beyond the fact that I typically do my own installs anyway (17
years of practice has to be good for something), I haven't taken a car
to a shop in a long time. However, both my kids have several times in
the last few years, and overall were treated well by the businesses.

Beyond that, I do have the inside track on what our 14 or so techs feel
on this subject, and they spend hours on the phone with installers all


day.


Only thing that I will agree HAS changed is it now takes just minutes to
get on the internet and complain about a bad retail experience - not
saying some of those aren't legitimate mind you - and instantly
thousands and thousands of people have read that info and possibly
changed their opinion of the profession.

Hell, I just read a thread about a guy that had a bad experience from
taking his car to what I know personally to be one of the best shops in
the area. Everyone has a bad day occasionally, but that's not grounds
for indicting the whole industry.

JD

Mark Zarella wrote:



I'm with Ed on this - I think you are overstating your position and in
the process doing an injustice to many installers around the world that
ARE better at their jobs than you are giving them credit for.




Many? As an "outside observer" looking in from a customer's point of


view,


I just don't see the expertise and dedication to putting out quality work
that I saw, say, 5 or 10 years ago. I just don't think these people take
pride in it anymore. Of course there are some that do, and some that are
very good at what they do. I never said there wasn't. But from my own
observations, I think the percentage of good installers is rapidly
dwindling.













  #86   Report Post  
Mark Zarella
 
Posts: n/a
Default I know how installers work

I was going to write this: "What part of the world are you in? I would
be glad to recommend it to anyone I run into that's looking for a good
retail opportunity."

But, having seen the reference to NY and MA, I am now having a HUGE
problem believing that there are not ANY competent shops in those very
heavily populated areas. The good people at Rich Inferrera's Car Tunes
come to mind... and I am sure I could call a couple of people I know
that live in MA and come up with several more qualified referrals.


That's in north shore MA though. I was trying to keep it locally back then,
since the people having the work done didn't want to travel. I was near the
cape cod/plymouth area. Admittedly, I didn't perform an exhaustive search
there.

As for my current situation, I'm in the Syracuse area. As I said, I checked
out all the places in the yellow pages. This totalled nearly 15. It wasn't
until the last one that I found someone even willing to do a door
installation. Everyone said it couldn't be done. They said that the
mounting depth made it too difficult. They said that there was not enough
area to mount two drivers. I knew it could be, because I had done it in my
last installation! I have the pictures to prove it, but I wasn't going to
show them or otherwise argue with them about it. If they didn't feel it
could be done, then as far as I'm concerned, they couldn't/wouldn't do it.
So I just said thank you very much and was on my way. The amount of crap I
encountered along the way was just plain nuts. Everything from "you'll need
more than one sub, because you won't hear any bass otherwise" (when I hadn't
even asked them about installing my sub) to having my car door panel damaged
to having one of my Morel drivers' surrounds crushed.

Lo and behold, the last place I brought it to said it could be done, and in
fact they did it. Unfortunately, it's just not right. But I have to give
them a lot of credit for being the only local shop to do it. They're a good
bunch of guys and they didn't break my car in the process, so I'm actually
going to have them do my video stuff. I'll just live with the speakers as
they are until summertime.


  #87   Report Post  
John Durbin
 
Posts: n/a
Default I know how installers work

Ahh, upstate NY... well, I'll ask around anyway, chances are you found
most of the larger shops but maybe there's a gem hiding up there :-)

JD

Mark Zarella wrote:

I was going to write this: "What part of the world are you in? I would
be glad to recommend it to anyone I run into that's looking for a good
retail opportunity."

But, having seen the reference to NY and MA, I am now having a HUGE
problem believing that there are not ANY competent shops in those very
heavily populated areas. The good people at Rich Inferrera's Car Tunes
come to mind... and I am sure I could call a couple of people I know
that live in MA and come up with several more qualified referrals.



That's in north shore MA though. I was trying to keep it locally back then,
since the people having the work done didn't want to travel. I was near the
cape cod/plymouth area. Admittedly, I didn't perform an exhaustive search
there.

As for my current situation, I'm in the Syracuse area. As I said, I checked
out all the places in the yellow pages. This totalled nearly 15. It wasn't
until the last one that I found someone even willing to do a door
installation. Everyone said it couldn't be done. They said that the
mounting depth made it too difficult. They said that there was not enough
area to mount two drivers. I knew it could be, because I had done it in my
last installation! I have the pictures to prove it, but I wasn't going to
show them or otherwise argue with them about it. If they didn't feel it
could be done, then as far as I'm concerned, they couldn't/wouldn't do it.
So I just said thank you very much and was on my way. The amount of crap I
encountered along the way was just plain nuts. Everything from "you'll need
more than one sub, because you won't hear any bass otherwise" (when I hadn't
even asked them about installing my sub) to having my car door panel damaged
to having one of my Morel drivers' surrounds crushed.

Lo and behold, the last place I brought it to said it could be done, and in
fact they did it. Unfortunately, it's just not right. But I have to give
them a lot of credit for being the only local shop to do it. They're a good
bunch of guys and they didn't break my car in the process, so I'm actually
going to have them do my video stuff. I'll just live with the speakers as
they are until summertime.





  #88   Report Post  
Eddie Runner
 
Posts: n/a
Default installers SUCK!

John Durbin wrote:

My all-time favorite:
His response to me: "That's not necessary, I checked it myself and I'm
an electrical engineer"


I love it when they say that!! ha ha ha

Or, all the wires in the molex plug on the back of a stock radio
attached to the little 1/8 pins with bare, uninsulated alligator clamps


The best one I have seen is from about 20 years ago, a couple of brothers
(who still shop here today) had wired up an amplifier in the back of the
van that one of them had.... They were so proud of it they wanted me to
hear how great it sounded so they took me outside to hear it....

In the old days the panel vans were real popular, and the woof paneling
on the inside made a decent place to put 6 inch speakers... this amp was
hooked to the two rear speakers....

I listened and it played so I told em it sounded good (it was ok I guess)
and they proceded to take me to the back of the van and open the back
doors... They told me that needed to purchase some speaker wire from
me....

HA HA HA HA HA HA

I looked into the back of the van and there were short speaker wires
coming from the left and right speaker directly to the amp and the
amp was HANGING IN MID AIR BY THE SPEAKER WIRES!!

JUST HANGING THERE!!!!
SWINGING BACK AND FOURTH!!!!

HA HA HA HA HA HA

Thats an install I will never forget...

Eddie Runner

  #89   Report Post  
Eddie Runner
 
Posts: n/a
Default I know how installers work

Durbin, whats your feelings on the
plug em in and slam em installs??
And how it is changing the installers competence levels...

Nowdays they have a kit and harness for everything, and many
installers wont do a job at all if there is no kit and harness.....

In the old days we didnt have harnesses at all and many kits
we have to make ourselves....

In the 90s when the harnesses started being popular the installers
I had working for me wanted to use em but always gave them
away for free with the installation so I said NO DONT USE EM..

I think it made a better installer because they learned to test wires
and find the power, ground, speakers, proper speaker phasing, and
even factory amp turn on wires and power antenna wires....

many times those installers have later thanked me for MAKEING
THEM LEARN and they thought they were better because of that!

But nowdays where the harness is expected and the customer
doesnt mind paying a little extra even I use harnessses...

But the average installer today if faced with a car and no harness
seems to be lost.....

That old figure it out mentality is to me what made me so good!
Eddie



  #90   Report Post  
Eddie Runner
 
Posts: n/a
Default I know how installers work

Mark, I believe you!

But its not just installers!!!!!

I had an electrician come in here and install a 220v plug in for
our big air compressor... a few years later I had another elecrician
installing some other wiring and he could not figure out how
the previous guy wired the big switchbox for the compressor....

I could see the wires were coming from the big dist point and
go through the big switch with the big handle and out from there
to the 220v plug on the wall of the shop...

But he new electrician kept INSISTING the power was going the
other way and he looked puzzled... I kept pointing to where the
power was coming in and he kept telling me NO!

This guy was a moron I thought!!
So I pointed my finger and traced it out for him, he finally got it
and said, OH I SEE NOW, the previous electrician installed the
big switchbox backward.....

So, first electrician installed our switchbox backward (but it worked)
and the second electrician didnt seem to understand how the juice
came into the building even though it was all exposed right in front
of him because someone didnt follow the normal way of doing things...

ITS MY OPINION BOTH OF THESE GUYS WERE MORONS!!

How do you find a good one???
I dont know....

I will admit to you Mark, finding a good installer may be just as hard.
Specially if you give them a job they have not done before or doing
something they are not used to....

Cadillacs are not the most common car in an install bay, and our shop
is in the ritzy part of town.... ;-)

Plus, many of the caddys have the bose system, for some reason
installers all over the place are scared of the bose systems!!

So I believe ya....
And I dont know what to tell ya!!

Eddie Runner

Mark Zarella wrote:

Ok. I don't get the national picture. I guess the only valid conclusion
then is that the area where I currently live and the area where I last lived
are completely void of any competent installers. As I mentioned elsewhere
in the thread, in my area there is not a single shop that advertises in the
yellow pages that can do a competent front door component installation in my
car. I've checked them all. All but two said that it could not be done.
One wanted $50 just for an estimate. The other did the work, and it came
out subpar in almost every conceivable way. Note that I've done the install
correctly in an almost identical car (installation-wise) with very similar
equipment. I know it can be done.

Where I lived last I never needed any work done in my own car. But I had
work done for others' cars at various points, so I know what the local
market was doing there as well. When you face incompetence and outright
deception as often as I did, it's not unreasonable to assume that there's a
large contingent of ripoff artists and ignorant people out there working on
cars. A monkey can put in a radio. But when it comes to having custom work
done, especially front speaker installations, I just think the talent level
is severely lacking. At least in the parts of NY and MA that I've queried.

"John Durbin" wrote in message
...
I have probably less direct contact with installers as a customer than
you - beyond the fact that I typically do my own installs anyway (17
years of practice has to be good for something), I haven't taken a car
to a shop in a long time. However, both my kids have several times in
the last few years, and overall were treated well by the businesses.

Beyond that, I do have the inside track on what our 14 or so techs feel
on this subject, and they spend hours on the phone with installers all

day.

Only thing that I will agree HAS changed is it now takes just minutes to
get on the internet and complain about a bad retail experience - not
saying some of those aren't legitimate mind you - and instantly
thousands and thousands of people have read that info and possibly
changed their opinion of the profession.

Hell, I just read a thread about a guy that had a bad experience from
taking his car to what I know personally to be one of the best shops in
the area. Everyone has a bad day occasionally, but that's not grounds
for indicting the whole industry.

JD

Mark Zarella wrote:

I'm with Ed on this - I think you are overstating your position and in
the process doing an injustice to many installers around the world that
ARE better at their jobs than you are giving them credit for.



Many? As an "outside observer" looking in from a customer's point of

view,
I just don't see the expertise and dedication to putting out quality work
that I saw, say, 5 or 10 years ago. I just don't think these people take
pride in it anymore. Of course there are some that do, and some that are
very good at what they do. I never said there wasn't. But from my own
observations, I think the percentage of good installers is rapidly
dwindling.








  #91   Report Post  
Eddie Runner
 
Posts: n/a
Default I know how installers work

Mark, was this door speaker installation to be where no
other door speakers have ever been mounted before???

Is it that the car comes with dash speakers but you wannna
add door speakers where there is no place for them???

That kinda thing was real common in the 70s cause not many
cars back then came with front speakers at all...

But nowdays even I might decline to do that installation....

No wonder the guys wanted $50 to do an extimate, they would
have to pull the doors apart just to see if it can be done!!

If this is the case IT MAKES MORE SENSE TO ME NOW!

Eddie Runner

Mark Zarella wrote:

I was going to write this: "What part of the world are you in? I would
be glad to recommend it to anyone I run into that's looking for a good
retail opportunity."

But, having seen the reference to NY and MA, I am now having a HUGE
problem believing that there are not ANY competent shops in those very
heavily populated areas. The good people at Rich Inferrera's Car Tunes
come to mind... and I am sure I could call a couple of people I know
that live in MA and come up with several more qualified referrals.


That's in north shore MA though. I was trying to keep it locally back then,
since the people having the work done didn't want to travel. I was near the
cape cod/plymouth area. Admittedly, I didn't perform an exhaustive search
there.

As for my current situation, I'm in the Syracuse area. As I said, I checked
out all the places in the yellow pages. This totalled nearly 15. It wasn't
until the last one that I found someone even willing to do a door
installation. Everyone said it couldn't be done. They said that the
mounting depth made it too difficult. They said that there was not enough
area to mount two drivers. I knew it could be, because I had done it in my
last installation! I have the pictures to prove it, but I wasn't going to
show them or otherwise argue with them about it. If they didn't feel it
could be done, then as far as I'm concerned, they couldn't/wouldn't do it.
So I just said thank you very much and was on my way. The amount of crap I
encountered along the way was just plain nuts. Everything from "you'll need
more than one sub, because you won't hear any bass otherwise" (when I hadn't
even asked them about installing my sub) to having my car door panel damaged
to having one of my Morel drivers' surrounds crushed.

Lo and behold, the last place I brought it to said it could be done, and in
fact they did it. Unfortunately, it's just not right. But I have to give
them a lot of credit for being the only local shop to do it. They're a good
bunch of guys and they didn't break my car in the process, so I'm actually
going to have them do my video stuff. I'll just live with the speakers as
they are until summertime.


  #92   Report Post  
Mark Zarella
 
Posts: n/a
Default I know how installers work

Mark, was this door speaker installation to be where no
other door speakers have ever been mounted before???


No, there was a stock 8" in the door. I wanted a 6 and a 4 in its place.
There was room laterally, and in fact, the grille was even shaped to
accomodate putting them in with minimal occlusion.


  #93   Report Post  
John Durbin
 
Posts: n/a
Default I know how installers work

That's what we call "barrier to entry", in other words your skills allow
you to sell a job for less money than the guys that don't know and rely
on a harness. However, I personally hate cutting OEM harnesses - I may
be the most conservative installer on the planet when it comes to
avoding permanent modifications to any part of the vehicle. So I like
harnesses, but for the most part I agree with you on the other points...

JD

Eddie Runner wrote:

Durbin, whats your feelings on the
plug em in and slam em installs??
And how it is changing the installers competence levels...

Nowdays they have a kit and harness for everything, and many
installers wont do a job at all if there is no kit and harness.....

In the old days we didnt have harnesses at all and many kits
we have to make ourselves....

In the 90s when the harnesses started being popular the installers
I had working for me wanted to use em but always gave them
away for free with the installation so I said NO DONT USE EM..

I think it made a better installer because they learned to test wires
and find the power, ground, speakers, proper speaker phasing, and
even factory amp turn on wires and power antenna wires....

many times those installers have later thanked me for MAKEING
THEM LEARN and they thought they were better because of that!

But nowdays where the harness is expected and the customer
doesnt mind paying a little extra even I use harnessses...

But the average installer today if faced with a car and no harness
seems to be lost.....

That old figure it out mentality is to me what made me so good!
Eddie






  #94   Report Post  
John Durbin
 
Posts: n/a
Default I know how installers work

you're not driving a Miata, are you?

JD

Mark Zarella wrote:

Mark, was this door speaker installation to be where no
other door speakers have ever been mounted before???



No, there was a stock 8" in the door. I wanted a 6 and a 4 in its place.
There was room laterally, and in fact, the grille was even shaped to
accomodate putting them in with minimal occlusion.





  #95   Report Post  
John Durbin
 
Posts: n/a
Default installers SUCK!

Speaking of "funky van audio systems from the 70's", I will never forget
a guy that built an entire multi-amp system in a full-size van with
Craig PowerPlay boosters mounted on a chunk of wood on the ceiling - he
had "biamped" the system by placing passive crossover networks AHEAD of
the amps, in the high-level input signal path... it worked too, although
I have no idea how accurately he had picked his component values to work
with the input impedances etc.

Dude sure was proud of it though...

JD

Eddie Runner wrote:

John Durbin wrote:



My all-time favorite:
His response to me: "That's not necessary, I checked it myself and I'm
an electrical engineer"



I love it when they say that!! ha ha ha



Or, all the wires in the molex plug on the back of a stock radio
attached to the little 1/8 pins with bare, uninsulated alligator clamps



The best one I have seen is from about 20 years ago, a couple of brothers
(who still shop here today) had wired up an amplifier in the back of the
van that one of them had.... They were so proud of it they wanted me to
hear how great it sounded so they took me outside to hear it....

In the old days the panel vans were real popular, and the woof paneling
on the inside made a decent place to put 6 inch speakers... this amp was
hooked to the two rear speakers....

I listened and it played so I told em it sounded good (it was ok I guess)
and they proceded to take me to the back of the van and open the back
doors... They told me that needed to purchase some speaker wire from
me....

HA HA HA HA HA HA

I looked into the back of the van and there were short speaker wires
coming from the left and right speaker directly to the amp and the
amp was HANGING IN MID AIR BY THE SPEAKER WIRES!!

JUST HANGING THERE!!!!
SWINGING BACK AND FOURTH!!!!

HA HA HA HA HA HA

Thats an install I will never forget...

Eddie Runner






  #96   Report Post  
Mark Zarella
 
Posts: n/a
Default I know how installers work

you're not driving a Miata, are you?

No, why?


  #97   Report Post  
Eddie Runner
 
Posts: n/a
Default installers SUCK!

those old powerplay amps were killer for the day!

Remember the HUMP MOUNT FM 8 TRACK players!
the big dog had a slick BLUE light that lite up powerplay
on peaks to let you know the amp was workin....

John Durbin wrote:

Speaking of "funky van audio systems from the 70's", I will never
forget a guy that built an entire multi-amp system in a full-size van
with Craig PowerPlay boosters mounted on a chunk of wood on the
ceiling - he had "biamped" the system by placing passive crossover
networks AHEAD of the amps, in the high-level input signal path... it
worked too, although I have no idea how accurately he had picked his
component values to work with the input impedances etc.

Dude sure was proud of it though...

JD

Eddie Runner wrote:

John Durbin wrote:


My all-time favorite:
His response to me: "That's not necessary, I checked it myself and
I'm
an electrical engineer"

I love it when they say that!! ha ha ha


Or, all the wires in the molex plug on the back of a stock radio
attached to the little 1/8 pins with bare, uninsulated alligator
clamps

The best one I have seen is from about 20 years ago, a couple of
brothers
(who still shop here today) had wired up an amplifier in the back
of the
van that one of them had.... They were so proud of it they wanted me
to
hear how great it sounded so they took me outside to hear it....

In the old days the panel vans were real popular, and the woof
paneling
on the inside made a decent place to put 6 inch speakers... this amp
was
hooked to the two rear speakers....

I listened and it played so I told em it sounded good (it was ok I
guess)
and they proceded to take me to the back of the van and open the
back
doors... They told me that needed to purchase some speaker wire
from
me....

HA HA HA HA HA HA

I looked into the back of the van and there were short speaker wires
coming from the left and right speaker directly to the amp and the
amp was HANGING IN MID AIR BY THE SPEAKER WIRES!!

JUST HANGING THERE!!!!
SWINGING BACK AND FOURTH!!!!

HA HA HA HA HA HA

Thats an install I will never forget...

Eddie Runner



  #98   Report Post  
Eddie Runner
 
Posts: n/a
Default I know how installers work

I like harnesses to John.... I use em everyday....

Im not knockin harnesses or anything else to make an installers
job go smoohter or better for the customer....

I was just making conversation about the ABILITY of the old
school (pre-harness) installers versus the *gotta have a harness*
*never cut a wire* installer mentality of today....

I would betcha the old schoolers are a bit better at simple things
like phasing loudspeakers and troubleshooting....

John Durbin wrote:

That's what we call "barrier to entry", in other words your skills allow
you to sell a job for less money than the guys that don't know and rely
on a harness. However, I personally hate cutting OEM harnesses - I may
be the most conservative installer on the planet when it comes to
avoding permanent modifications to any part of the vehicle. So I like
harnesses, but for the most part I agree with you on the other points...

JD

Eddie Runner wrote:

Durbin, whats your feelings on the
plug em in and slam em installs??
And how it is changing the installers competence levels...

Nowdays they have a kit and harness for everything, and many
installers wont do a job at all if there is no kit and harness.....

In the old days we didnt have harnesses at all and many kits
we have to make ourselves....

In the 90s when the harnesses started being popular the installers
I had working for me wanted to use em but always gave them
away for free with the installation so I said NO DONT USE EM..

I think it made a better installer because they learned to test wires
and find the power, ground, speakers, proper speaker phasing, and
even factory amp turn on wires and power antenna wires....

many times those installers have later thanked me for MAKEING
THEM LEARN and they thought they were better because of that!

But nowdays where the harness is expected and the customer
doesnt mind paying a little extra even I use harnessses...

But the average installer today if faced with a car and no harness
seems to be lost.....

That old figure it out mentality is to me what made me so good!
Eddie






  #99   Report Post  
Rick Davis
 
Posts: n/a
Default I know how installers work

Eddie Runner wrote in message ...

In my case, I dont mind the customer watching if he thinks he
is a know it all, sometimes its easier to let him watch me work and
ask questions or offer suggestions as the job progresses.. This way
the customer will know why the job has to be done a certain way.



That's why there's a sign in my shop that lists installation fees
followed by that old adage: "Prices are doubled if you help."

  #100   Report Post  
Budgetaudio
 
Posts: n/a
Default I know how installers work

Harnesses are fine, but if you want to go beyond head unit power, you could
find yourself running new speaker wires for sure.

Troy
carbudgetaudio.com


  #101   Report Post  
Eddie Runner
 
Posts: n/a
Default I know how installers work

i used to have the sign

Labor $25 hr
If you watch $40 hr
If you help $80 hr
if you laugh $100 hr

Customers thought it was funny, when they would laugh
I would say " GOTCHA" and hold out my hand for payment...
ha ha ha



Rick Davis wrote:

Eddie Runner wrote in message ...

In my case, I dont mind the customer watching if he thinks he
is a know it all, sometimes its easier to let him watch me work and
ask questions or offer suggestions as the job progresses.. This way
the customer will know why the job has to be done a certain way.


That's why there's a sign in my shop that lists installation fees
followed by that old adage: "Prices are doubled if you help."


  #102   Report Post  
Eddie Runner
 
Posts: n/a
Default I know how installers work

running new speaker wires?

In what instance? Everytime?

Why?
What advantages do new speaker wires give us?


Eddie

Budgetaudio wrote:

Harnesses are fine, but if you want to go beyond head unit power, you could
find yourself running new speaker wires for sure.

Troy
carbudgetaudio.com


  #103   Report Post  
thelizman
 
Posts: n/a
Default I know how installers work

John Durbin wrote:
However, I personally hate cutting OEM harnesses - I may
be the most conservative installer on the planet when it comes to
avoding permanent modifications to any part of the vehicle. So I like
harnesses, but for the most part I agree with you on the other points...


I'm the same way. I'd go to another shop and pay full retail for their
harness before hacking one myself. One problemwith harnesses is that
they aren't always right. Alot of these kids today (the ones Eddie is
bitching about) would be dead in the water when a wire is in the wrong
place, or like on some older Ford trucks where the front speaker
negatives are switched or are common ground.


--
--
thelizman

http://www.teamrocs.com/caraudio
"It's about the music, stupid"
  #104   Report Post  
thelizman
 
Posts: n/a
Default I know how installers work

Eddie Runner wrote:
running new speaker wires?
In what instance? Everytime?
Why?
What advantages do new speaker wires give us?

Budgetaudio wrote:

Harnesses are fine, but if you want to go beyond head unit power, you could
find yourself running new speaker wires for sure.


NO! STOP! IT'S A TRAP!!!


(Hint: Check Ohms law against stock wire gauges and runs - most car
wiring is sufficient for the current output of many amplifiers).

--
thelizman

http://www.teamrocs.com/caraudio
"It's about the music, stupid"
  #105   Report Post  
John Durbin
 
Posts: n/a
Default I know how installers work

Only two cars I can think of off the top of my head with stock 8" door
speakers are the current Miata body style and the Ferrari Mondial.

JD
I'm guessing there's others out there, and you have one :-)

Mark Zarella wrote:

you're not driving a Miata, are you?



No, why?







  #106   Report Post  
John Durbin
 
Posts: n/a
Default I know how installers work

Double if you WATCH, triple if you help...

JD

Rick Davis wrote:

Eddie Runner wrote in message ...


In my case, I dont mind the customer watching if he thinks he
is a know it all, sometimes its easier to let him watch me work and
ask questions or offer suggestions as the job progresses.. This way
the customer will know why the job has to be done a certain way.




That's why there's a sign in my shop that lists installation fees
followed by that old adage: "Prices are doubled if you help."



  #107   Report Post  
John Durbin
 
Posts: n/a
Default installers SUCK!

yeah... and further back, the Ampex "microcassette" which was a
whale-sized hump mount deck... not sure why they though it was micro
anything, it was freaking huge.

JD

Eddie Runner wrote:

those old powerplay amps were killer for the day!

Remember the HUMP MOUNT FM 8 TRACK players!
the big dog had a slick BLUE light that lite up powerplay
on peaks to let you know the amp was workin....

John Durbin wrote:

Speaking of "funky van audio systems from the 70's", I will never
forget a guy that built an entire multi-amp system in a full-size van
with Craig PowerPlay boosters mounted on a chunk of wood on the
ceiling - he had "biamped" the system by placing passive crossover
networks AHEAD of the amps, in the high-level input signal path... it
worked too, although I have no idea how accurately he had picked his
component values to work with the input impedances etc.

Dude sure was proud of it though...

JD

Eddie Runner wrote:

John Durbin wrote:



My all-time favorite:
His response to me: "That's not necessary, I checked it myself and I'm
an electrical engineer"


I love it when they say that!! ha ha ha



Or, all the wires in the molex plug on the back of a stock radio
attached to the little 1/8 pins with bare, uninsulated alligator clamps


The best one I have seen is from about 20 years ago, a couple of brothers
(who still shop here today) had wired up an amplifier in the back of the
van that one of them had.... They were so proud of it they wanted me to
hear how great it sounded so they took me outside to hear it....

In the old days the panel vans were real popular, and the woof paneling
on the inside made a decent place to put 6 inch speakers... this amp was
hooked to the two rear speakers....

I listened and it played so I told em it sounded good (it was ok I guess)
and they proceded to take me to the back of the van and open the back
doors... They told me that needed to purchase some speaker wire from
me....

HA HA HA HA HA HA

I looked into the back of the van and there were short speaker wires
coming from the left and right speaker directly to the amp and the
amp was HANGING IN MID AIR BY THE SPEAKER WIRES!!

JUST HANGING THERE!!!!
SWINGING BACK AND FOURTH!!!!

HA HA HA HA HA HA

Thats an install I will never forget...

Eddie Runner




  #108   Report Post  
Eddie Runner
 
Posts: n/a
Default Old Stuff installers SUCK!

One of my all time favorites was the Panasonic COCKPIT!
that was really neat at the time with the joystick fader and the
big one had a seperate 4 channel amp...

Customers used to ask me all the time
"Eddie, do you think the cassette will ever catch on and
take the place of the 8 track?"

There was no doubt because casssettes were so slim you
could carry a bunch of them as oppposed to the HUGE
8 track cartidges....

Years later folks would ask me
"Eddie, do you think CDs will ever take the place of
cassette tapes?"

There were many doubters!!! So many folks were into
making thier own cassettes and at the time there was no
way to make your own CDs....!! Alot of folks had high
hopes for the DAT (digital audio tape) which had the sound
of CD and was recordable... But thanks to the record
industry that was kept out of most consumers hands...

I must be delierious..??
Just working late tonight finishing up a job in an H2
for a baseball player....

ha ha

Eddie Runner

John Durbin wrote:

yeah... and further back, the Ampex "microcassette" which was a
whale-sized hump mount deck... not sure why they though it was micro
anything, it was freaking huge.

JD

Eddie Runner wrote:

those old powerplay amps were killer for the day!

Remember the HUMP MOUNT FM 8 TRACK players!
the big dog had a slick BLUE light that lite up powerplay
on peaks to let you know the amp was workin....

John Durbin wrote:

Speaking of "funky van audio systems from the 70's", I will never
forget a guy that built an entire multi-amp system in a full-size
van with Craig PowerPlay boosters mounted on a chunk of wood on the
ceiling - he had "biamped" the system by placing passive crossover
networks AHEAD of the amps, in the high-level input signal path...
it worked too, although I have no idea how accurately he had picked
his component values to work with the input impedances etc.

Dude sure was proud of it though...

JD

Eddie Runner wrote:

John Durbin wrote:


My all-time favorite:
His response to me: "That's not necessary, I checked it myself and I'm
an electrical engineer"

I love it when they say that!! ha ha ha


Or, all the wires in the molex plug on the back of a stock radio
attached to the little 1/8 pins with bare, uninsulated alligator clamps

The best one I have seen is from about 20 years ago, a couple of brothers
(who still shop here today) had wired up an amplifier in the back of the
van that one of them had.... They were so proud of it they wanted me to
hear how great it sounded so they took me outside to hear it....

In the old days the panel vans were real popular, and the woof paneling
on the inside made a decent place to put 6 inch speakers... this amp was
hooked to the two rear speakers....

I listened and it played so I told em it sounded good (it was ok I guess)
and they proceded to take me to the back of the van and open the back
doors... They told me that needed to purchase some speaker wire from
me....

HA HA HA HA HA HA

I looked into the back of the van and there were short speaker wires
coming from the left and right speaker directly to the amp and the
amp was HANGING IN MID AIR BY THE SPEAKER WIRES!!

JUST HANGING THERE!!!!
SWINGING BACK AND FOURTH!!!!

HA HA HA HA HA HA

Thats an install I will never forget...

Eddie Runner



  #109   Report Post  
Masterson
 
Posts: n/a
Default I know how installers work

A 90's toyota MR2 has 8's in the door. Not the convertible.




"
Only two cars I can think of off the top of my head with stock 8" door speakers are the current Miata body style and the Ferrari Mondial.

JD
I'm guessing there's others out there, and you have one :-)

Mark Zarella wrote:

you're not driving a Miata, are you?

No, why?



  #110   Report Post  
Masterson
 
Posts: n/a
Default Not MR2....Celica....




  #111   Report Post  
 
Posts: n/a
Default Old Stuff installers SUCK!

On Sat, 14 Feb 2004 03:33:03 GMT, Eddie Runner
wrote:

One of my all time favorites was the Panasonic COCKPIT!
that was really neat at the time with the joystick fader and the
big one had a seperate 4 channel amp...

Customers used to ask me all the time
"Eddie, do you think the cassette will ever catch on and
take the place of the 8 track?"

There was no doubt because casssettes were so slim you
could carry a bunch of them as oppposed to the HUGE
8 track cartidges....

Years later folks would ask me
"Eddie, do you think CDs will ever take the place of
cassette tapes?"

There were many doubters!!! So many folks were into
making thier own cassettes and at the time there was no
way to make your own CDs....!! Alot of folks had high
hopes for the DAT (digital audio tape) which had the sound
of CD and was recordable... But thanks to the record
industry that was kept out of most consumers hands...

I must be delierious..??
Just working late tonight finishing up a job in an H2
for a baseball player....

ha ha

Eddie Runner

John Durbin wrote:


maybe now they will ask if DVD decks will catch on

i cant wait for holigram displays on HU's.

  #112   Report Post  
Mark Zarella
 
Posts: n/a
Default I know how installers work

Don't forget some of the Bose systems...

As forgettable as they may be.

"John Durbin" wrote in message
...
Only two cars I can think of off the top of my head with stock 8" door
speakers are the current Miata body style and the Ferrari Mondial.

JD
I'm guessing there's others out there, and you have one :-)

Mark Zarella wrote:

you're not driving a Miata, are you?



No, why?







  #113   Report Post  
thelizman
 
Posts: n/a
Default I know how installers work

John Durbin wrote:
Only two cars I can think of off the top of my head with stock 8" door
speakers are the current Miata body style and the Ferrari Mondial.


Toyota Celicas had them for a few years in the early 90's


--
thelizman

http://www.teamrocs.com/caraudio
"It's about the music, stupid"
  #114   Report Post  
thelizman
 
Posts: n/a
Default I know how installers work

John Durbin wrote:

That's why there's a sign in my shop that lists installation fees
followed by that old adage: "Prices are doubled if you help."


Double if you WATCH, triple if you help...


That's what the prostitute said to my girlfriend once.

--
thelizman

teamROCS Car Audio Forums
http://www.teamrocs.com/caraudio/
teamROCS Car Audio News http://www.caraudio.com/news/
"It's about the music, stupid"
  #115   Report Post  
thelizman
 
Posts: n/a
Default Old Stuff installers SUCK!

Eddie Runner wrote:

There were many doubters!!! So many folks were into
making thier own cassettes and at the time there was no
way to make your own CDs....!! Alot of folks had high
hopes for the DAT (digital audio tape) which had the sound
of CD and was recordable... But thanks to the record
industry that was kept out of most consumers hands...


Nice conspiracy theory, but I remember looking at dats and thinking
"man, it takes forever to fastward a tape, but those CD's are sure fast...".


--
thelizman

teamROCS Car Audio Forums
http://www.teamrocs.com/caraudio/
teamROCS Car Audio News http://www.caraudio.com/news/
"It's about the music, stupid"


  #116   Report Post  
thelizman
 
Posts: n/a
Default I know how installers work

Masterson wrote:
A 90's toyota MR2 has 8's in the door. Not the convertible.


THEY HAD 8 FOOT SPEAKERS? HOLY ****!

The Celicas also had 8" speakers, and you could get 8s and a convertible
top.


(The Grammar Nazi Says: Ze apostrophe iz not uzed zu indicate plurality)

--
thelizman

teamROCS Car Audio Forums
http://www.teamrocs.com/caraudio/
teamROCS Car Audio News http://www.caraudio.com/news/
"It's about the music, stupid"
  #117   Report Post  
Peter Lufrano
 
Posts: n/a
Default I know how installers work

Volvo C70 has Dynaudio 8's stock in the front doors

thelizman wrote:


John Durbin wrote:
Only two cars I can think of off the top of my head with stock 8" door
speakers are the current Miata body style and the Ferrari Mondial.


Toyota Celicas had them for a few years in the early 90's


--
thelizman

http://www.teamrocs.com/caraudio
"It's about the music, stupid"




  #118   Report Post  
Eddie Runner
 
Posts: n/a
Default Old Stuff installers SUCK!

Yeah but your forgetting you couldnt record on CDs back then!
DATS were asked about everyday and no one could get them,
the public was really anticipating the DAT to become the next
serious media but it never happened thanks to the record industrys
fears...

Of course the CD now that it is easily recordable and so damn
cheap is much better for most of us.. It backfired on the record
industry this time....
(greedy *******s)

Eddie

thelizman wrote:

Eddie Runner wrote:

There were many doubters!!! So many folks were into
making thier own cassettes and at the time there was no
way to make your own CDs....!! Alot of folks had high
hopes for the DAT (digital audio tape) which had the sound
of CD and was recordable... But thanks to the record
industry that was kept out of most consumers hands...


Nice conspiracy theory, but I remember looking at dats and thinking
"man, it takes forever to fastward a tape, but those CD's are sure fast...".

--
thelizman

teamROCS Car Audio Forums
http://www.teamrocs.com/caraudio/
teamROCS Car Audio News http://www.caraudio.com/news/
"It's about the music, stupid"


  #119   Report Post  
thelizman
 
Posts: n/a
Default Old Stuff installers SUCK!

Eddie Runner wrote:
Yeah but your forgetting you couldnt record on CDs back then!
DATS were asked about everyday and no one could get them,
the public was really anticipating the DAT to become the next
serious media but it never happened thanks to the record industrys
fears...

Of course the CD now that it is easily recordable and so damn
cheap is much better for most of us.. It backfired on the record
industry this time....
(greedy *******s)


I don't know eddie, i just can't buy into there being an effort by the
record industry to kill DAT. I mean on the short scale, yes, because
groups like the RIAA have opposed every new media to come along - VHS &
Beta, cassette tapes, Minidisc, and now MP3. They want to control all
aspects of the distribution of their product, which is natural. But in
this case I don't see them being a major factor. DAT was expensive -
ungodly expensive. When I shopped for DAT players in 1995, they were
about a grand, and the tapes were $20 each blank. Minidisc on the other
hand was out at the same time, and while ATRAC II sounded assy compared
to PCM/CDA used on DAT, it was a far site (far sound?) better than most
cassette players.

To me, a $400 minidisc player with blank media costing about $5 each was
a whole lot better deal, even with the trade off in audio quality. It
wasnt but about four years after that that CD-R/RW technology was cheap
enough to beat the DATs, which were waning anyway. It seems more likely
to me that DAT was simply introduced too late. Had the technology been
made available mid mid 80's, it would have been competitive with CDs,
and would have likely been a low cost option back then instead of the
high-end esoteric piece most consumers I know saw it as. JMO.




--
thelizman

teamROCS Car Audio Forums
http://www.teamrocs.com/caraudio/
teamROCS Car Audio News http://www.teamrocs.com/news/
"It's about the music, stupid"

This post is Copyright (C) 2004. Reproduction of its content anywhere
other than the rec.audio.car newsgroup without the express written
permission of the author is forbidden.
  #120   Report Post  
Eddie Runner
 
Posts: n/a
Default Old Stuff installers SUCK!

Im talkin before 1990 Liz.... 96 or 97 probably
The only DAT players out were pro units, a few places had them
for rent.. it was common for folks to rent them and then never
return them loosing the $2000 deposit... Just so they could get one.

The RIAA delayed the introduction of the DAT to the American
market for years...They didnt want the conumers to have such
high quality recodings they could make themselves.

there was no minidisk or any other competition back then

By 1995 when you discovered DAT, it was out already and
so many other things were good competition so it never
caught on and never got inexpensive...

Dont forget Lizzy,
you will always be a newbie to me....
Im talking nearly a decade before you found DAT ... ;-)

Eddie Runner


thelizman wrote:

I don't know eddie, i just can't buy into there being an effort by the
record industry to kill DAT. I mean on the short scale, yes, because
groups like the RIAA have opposed every new media to come along - VHS &
Beta, cassette tapes, Minidisc, and now MP3. They want to control all
aspects of the distribution of their product, which is natural. But in
this case I don't see them being a major factor. DAT was expensive -
ungodly expensive. When I shopped for DAT players in 1995, they were
about a grand, and the tapes were $20 each blank. Minidisc on the other
hand was out at the same time, and while ATRAC II sounded assy compared
to PCM/CDA used on DAT, it was a far site (far sound?) better than most
cassette players.

To me, a $400 minidisc player with blank media costing about $5 each was
a whole lot better deal, even with the trade off in audio quality. It
wasnt but about four years after that that CD-R/RW technology was cheap
enough to beat the DATs, which were waning anyway. It seems more likely
to me that DAT was simply introduced too late. Had the technology been
made available mid mid 80's, it would have been competitive with CDs,
and would have likely been a low cost option back then instead of the
high-end esoteric piece most consumers I know saw it as. JMO.

--
thelizman

teamROCS Car Audio Forums
http://www.teamrocs.com/caraudio/
teamROCS Car Audio News http://www.teamrocs.com/news/
"It's about the music, stupid"

This post is Copyright (C) 2004. Reproduction of its content anywhere
other than the rec.audio.car newsgroup without the express written
permission of the author is forbidden.


Reply
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules

Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
tweeter and circuit city experience Don Joe Car Audio 12 January 27th 04 03:08 AM
Lanzar Vibe 230 power amp installation Predestin8 Car Audio 0 January 13th 04 11:42 PM
installation at pep boys? Don Joe Car Audio 2 December 29th 03 06:33 AM
bestbuy/Circuit city scat131 Car Audio 5 October 28th 03 01:54 AM
Bridging an amp... Circuit theory question??? Sanitarium Car Audio 42 August 19th 03 01:28 PM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 09:51 AM.

Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 AudioBanter.com.
The comments are property of their posters.
 

About Us

"It's about Audio and hi-fi"