On 5/20/04 8:34 PM, in article , "Howard
Ferstler" wrote:

Heh - if you were really hard core - you could put one wire of one type on
one speaker and the lamp cord on the other speaker and see if you felt it
was different somehow!

Each speaker would sound different, even if the wires were
identical. Speakers will sound profoundly different in
different locations, due to room interactions. In addition,
with a pink-noise source two speakers even placed side by
side will sound outrageously different, even if they sound
identical with music.

Could you set it up so that you could put one cable on one speaker and
another on another - in an identical room and speakers matched to 0.05dB or
something really close ?

Pink noise is a surprisingly good test tool for ear-only
work. I said as much in a couple of Stereo Review articles a
couple of decades back.

I believe it - broad band noise like that was experimented for sirens in
Europe awhile back beacue it was easy to hear and discern if the vehicle was
coming or going.

On 5/20/04 8:52 PM, in article fpcrc.88170$xw3.4945895@attbi_s04, "Howard
Ferstler" wrote:

Better yet, do the comparing sighted at first. Then do it
blind, or better yet double blind with the help of a friend.
See what comes up.

To use the term "wife" here - you could find a female friend that thinks you
are spending way too much on sound system stuff to tell you if there is any
difference. :-)

On 5/20/04 8:53 PM, in article gqcrc.88004$iF6.7546379@attbi_s02, "Howard
Ferstler" wrote:

Bromo wrote:

On 5/19/04 7:01 PM, in article , "Howard
Ferstler" wrote:

Lampcord gets a little funky after awhile.

I am not sure what this means. Do you mean that it
eventually deteriorates?

I know I have found that some cheap lampcord left out in the sun tends to
have the plastic insulating material degrade after several years - and the
copper sometimes get oxidized as well.

This is why I have all three of my AV systems located
indoors.

LOL

The lampcords I was talking about wer ein a sunny patch of light for about
10+ years. Ended up re-cording them since the plastic insulation was
crumbling.

On 20 May 2004 22:58:16 GMT, (S888Wheel) wrote:

Stewart wrote:

They *may* be audible in some extreme cases, and they will simply
amount to a tiny reduction in high treble, typically less than the
variation between the two tweeters of your pair of speakers. If you
are paranoid about this, then use low-inductance cable.
--
I am not paranoid at all. I am just looking for clarification of what people
believe. I'm sorry but I'm still not sure where you stand here. I'm still not
entirely clear if you believe the differences are non-existant or just
insignificant. It looks like You are claiming nonexistance in your first
paragraph and insignificance in your second.

I'd have thought that it's pretty obvious where I stand. I *measured*
a difference, but I could not *hear* any difference. I still know that
the physical difference exists, so I use low inductance cable for high
frequencies, to remove those niggling doubts.
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

Bromo wrote:

On 5/19/04 6:03 PM, in article AQQqc.78876$536.13027949@attbi_s03, "Howard
Ferstler" wrote:

Well, sooner or later, the wife/partner/child/innocent-bystander always
shows up in these anecdotes . My guess is that you were playing at
different volume levels.

Chung is on the mark. I cannot recall the number of times
the wife/girlfriend explanation has been used when
enthusiasts try to back up their claims about audibility
contrasts.

I am not trying to prove anything to you guys except she *did* say that. I
have no cables to sell - and don't give a darn about what you use to hook up
your speakers with - or even if you guys own a pair of speakers at all!
(though I figure you do)

Since one and all jumped all over this - I suppose I should leave my wife
out of it - though she has the better ears.

Wives often do, particularly when it comes to high-frequency
work. I sometimes haul mine into one of my three listening
rooms when doing comparison work. She is very musically
oriented (we have a Baldwin grand in the living room that
she plays) and I use her expertise when comparing speakers
if one pair has particularly choppy response compared to the
other, and particularly if it has problems in the
middle-bass area. The middle bass range and the range where
midrange drivers dovetail with tweeters are two areas where
many speakers have big problems.

Wives can be a good test tool, but they do have to be used
with care.

Howard Ferstler

Bromo wrote:



On 5/20/04 8:52 PM, in article fpcrc.88170$xw3.4945895@attbi_s04, "Howard
Ferstler" wrote:

Better yet, do the comparing sighted at first. Then do it
blind, or better yet double blind with the help of a friend.
See what comes up.

To use the term "wife" here - you could find a female friend that thinks you
are spending way too much on sound system stuff to tell you if there is any
difference. :-)

I used to use my daughter when she was in her late teens and early 20s. She had
keen hearing an incredibly intense and wide-ranging musical interest and she
wasn't afraid to say what she heard (or refreshingly) didn't hear.

On 5/22/04 12:22 AM, in article , "Nousaine"
wrote:

Bromo wrote:



On 5/20/04 8:52 PM, in article fpcrc.88170$xw3.4945895@attbi_s04, "Howard
Ferstler" wrote:

Better yet, do the comparing sighted at first. Then do it
blind, or better yet double blind with the help of a friend.
See what comes up.

To use the term "wife" here - you could find a female friend that thinks you
are spending way too much on sound system stuff to tell you if there is any
difference. :-)

I used to use my daughter when she was in her late teens and early 20s. She
had
keen hearing an incredibly intense and wide-ranging musical interest and she
wasn't afraid to say what she heard (or refreshingly) didn't hear.

Yup - my wife is that way, too. If she doesn't hear anything different -
there is no way we're going to do or get whatever is in question.

The current domestic situation is the "remastered" Elvis Constello stuff
released by Rhino - the master tapes we figure are so poorly mastered - that
the sound is permanently ruined - therefore we have found a use for the old
lousy sounding stereo system we have from way back - the music sound OK
there! :P

Howard Ferstler wrote:

.....big snips.........


Wives can be a good test tool, but they do have to be used
with care.

Women are often good subjects. But I've generally not found wives or
girlfriends as such. Many times they're overly anxious to please.

Various people said, in an exchange on this board:

Wives can be a good test tool, but they do have to be used
with care.

Women are often good subjects. But I've generally not found wives or
girlfriends as such. Many times they're overly anxious to please.

My wife came in one evening from working late, right after I had
installed (unknown to her) a new pair of speakers. She stopped very
suddenly as she entered the room and said that the sound was more
lifelike and natural than she had ever heard before from my system.

No picking at details, comments about high frequency definition or
imaging or low frequency heft, or transparency.

OK by me...because she didn't even notice the new speakers, until she
actually looked at them.

And only then did she ask how much they cost.

-Gene Poon

On 5/23/04 6:53 PM, in article , "Nousaine"
wrote:

Howard Ferstler wrote:

....big snips.........


Wives can be a good test tool, but they do have to be used
with care.

Women are often good subjects. But I've generally not found wives or
girlfriends as such. Many times they're overly anxious to please.

Holy cow - where do you get your women!?!?

Anxious to please? Wow.....

Bromo wrote:


On 5/23/04 6:53 PM, in article , "Nousaine"
wrote:

Howard Ferstler wrote:

....big snips.........


Wives can be a good test tool, but they do have to be used
with care.

Women are often good subjects. But I've generally not found wives or
girlfriends as such. Many times they're overly anxious to please.

Holy cow - where do you get your women!?!?

Anxious to please? Wow.....









I'll have what he's having !

(with apologies to "When Harry Met Sally").



Bruce J. Richman

From: Gene Poon
Date: 5/23/2004 4:54 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id: LQasc.13185$af3.733682@attbi_s51

Various people said, in an exchange on this board:

Wives can be a good test tool, but they do have to be used
with care.

Women are often good subjects. But I've generally not found wives or
girlfriends as such. Many times they're overly anxious to please.

My wife came in one evening from working late, right after I had
installed (unknown to her) a new pair of speakers. She stopped very
suddenly as she entered the room and said that the sound was more
lifelike and natural than she had ever heard before from my system.

No picking at details, comments about high frequency definition or
imaging or low frequency heft, or transparency.

OK by me...because she didn't even notice the new speakers, until she
actually looked at them.

And only then did she ask how much they cost.


Good god not another "my wife heard the difference from the other room story!
Until you provide proof via ABX DBTs I'm not buying this anecdote! ;-) ;-)

On 5/23/04 10:16 PM, in article , "S888Wheel"
wrote:

From: Gene Poon
Date: 5/23/2004 4:54 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id: LQasc.13185$af3.733682@attbi_s51

Various people said, in an exchange on this board:

Wives can be a good test tool, but they do have to be used
with care.

Women are often good subjects. But I've generally not found wives or
girlfriends as such. Many times they're overly anxious to please.

My wife came in one evening from working late, right after I had
installed (unknown to her) a new pair of speakers. She stopped very
suddenly as she entered the room and said that the sound was more
lifelike and natural than she had ever heard before from my system.

No picking at details, comments about high frequency definition or
imaging or low frequency heft, or transparency.

OK by me...because she didn't even notice the new speakers, until she
actually looked at them.

And only then did she ask how much they cost.


Good god not another "my wife heard the difference from the other room story!
Until you provide proof via ABX DBTs I'm not buying this anecdote! ;-) ;-)

The point is not if YOU will buy it, but if his wife would let HIM buy it.

;-)

Holy cow - where do you get your women!?!?

Anxious to please? Wow.....

Shouldn't we more accuratlely combine this thread with the Speaker Cable
thread and entitle it "Using Wives and Girlfriends as Speaker Cable" thread?

Best,

Mark Allen Zimmerman * Chicago

(MarkZimmerman) wrote:



Holy cow - where do you get your women!?!?

Anxious to please? Wow.....

Shouldn't we more accuratlely combine this thread with the Speaker Cable
thread and entitle it "Using Wives and Girlfriends as Speaker Cable" thread?


Best,

Mark Allen Zimmerman * Chicago

Actually I tried this once. But the signal to noise ratio was horrible. I
couldn't listen to the music because she was always asking "Are you sure am I
doing this right?"

"Howard Ferstler" wrote in message
news:07Lqc.6441$zw.4286@attbi_s01...
Bromo wrote:

On 5/17/04 7:00 PM, in article , "Howard
Ferstler" wrote:

Bromo wrote:

I have kimber 4's, 16ga. zip cord and Romex 10 ga. I do notice
fairly
substantial changes between all three - mostly with bass
articulation, bass
level and timing in my speakers.

What kind of comparing do you do?

For me it is strictly non-scientific "tweak and see if you hear a
difference" kind.

This is part of the problem. Do some quick-switch
comparisons, and to dramatize the impact compare some
expensive/exotic stuff to basic 16 AWG lamp cord. I find
that is the best way to highlight just how non-important
exotic wire can be. Some guys will compare two different
exotic wires, but the best way to really discover just how
weird the wire scene is would be to compare some really
expensive stuff to some really cheap stuff.

Incidentally, while level matching is mandatory when
comparing stuff like amps and CD players, it really is no
big deal with wires, particularly if you are comparing short
(under 15 foot) sections. The levels will automatically be
close enough.

Note that some exotically designed wire (the Dunlavy Z6 in
my experience) does indeed flatten out the top octave a tad,
compared to, say, double-lead lamp cord, and so it might be
possible to hear subtle differences when using
broad-bandwidth sources like pink noise. However, with
music, no way.

I have a stereo amp - and plan on minimizing the difference in length
between it and the speakers - and put the minimum length of wire form it
to
the speakers - because despite all the controversy - audible or not -
the
less cable the better!

I have run speaker leads up to 30 feet with no problems,
provided the wire is heavy enough. My two primary systems (I
have a third in the living room) make use of 12 AWG stranded
and have runs of from 22 to 25 feet. The longest run is 40
feet to one of my surround speakers.

Remember that whether a cable has a spectrum of its own or not. It
definately has an inheirant impedance which is nearly solely DC resistance
under 20kHz. At audio frequencies, inductance, capacitance and other
parasitic impedances are pretty much negligable. You start talking about 30
feet and the like, there will most likely be an audible difference due to
the DC resistance which is no longer negligable. But it's not the cable
directly. It's the loudspeaker's modified electromechanical properties that
make the difference; of which the internal DC resistance of the amp (damping
factor) and the cable between the amp and loudspeaker are components of the
total electromechanical circuit of the loudspeaker.

An increase of 10% in the total DC resistance is very audible, especially at
low frequencies where lots of current (energy) is needed to overcome
opposing inertial forces and keep cone excursion tight. I would say
(opinion) that you have to be below 5% in order to say that it could be
negligable. If the typical DC resistance of a woofer is 5.7 ohm, 10% is +/-
0.57 ohm. 30 feet of 12 gauge OFC cable gets close to this 0.5 ohm mark. If
you happen to have a 4 ohm woofer (typically 3.9 ohm) well it just got
worse. You could think of it in this way: Your expensive SS amp with a
damping factor of 300 becomes something like 100 with very fat, low DC
resistance, short run cables. With 20 feet of 12 gauge OFC the damping
factor just shrunk to about 30! Can you hear the difference? Maybe not.


When I was comparing cables I built a switch box device that
allowed me to toggle back and forth between the cables. The
best way would have been to do the comparing blind or double
blind, but since I could not hear differences anyway, I
passed on that trick.

I would agree - though some of the more "far out" types would think that
somehow the switch was to blame! :-)

I find the switch issue to be ironic. I mean, a switch does
indeed a very small amount of resistance, and could add more
if it were well worn. However, compared to other factors
that is pretty minor, and it would at least impact both wire
sets the same.

If one is paranoid about switches they could have a friend
do the wire switching manually, but if they did that they
would have to make sure that the friend did not let you know
which wire was connected. Of course, the average
speaker-jack bond is probably as resistance loaded as your
typical good switch. Serious wire enthusiasts would solder
the leads to the speakers and to the amp.

Yeah, I know that having a buddy (or wife) do the
plug-unplug work for you would be tedious, but if we are
talking about paying 25 cents a foot for wire or paying ten
bucks a foot it looks like the effort would be worthwhile.

Note that in one case I was comparing stuff like Dunlavy LCR
Ultra cables (12-foot sections, with a list price of $995)
against 16-AWG lamp cord purchased at a hardware store. They
sounded the same, even when I bumped the lamp cord out to 24
feet.

Wow - what kind of speakers do you use?

I have three different main sets in my main systems: Allison
IC-20s (biggest system), Dunlavy Cantatas (middle system),
and NHT ST4s (living-room system). (There are also numerous
speakers used in the surround channels of all three
systems.)

However, as part of my speaker reviewing work for The
Sensible Sound I also made use of some Waveform MC
satellites in combination with MC.1 unpowered subwoofers,
Triad Silver satellites, Axiom Satellites, Tyler Acoustics
satellites, and some NHT M6 satellites, plus a pair of
Dunlavy SC-II systems running full bandwidth. Admittedly,
the satellite packages made use of powered subwoofers, and
so any bass differences would be obscured. However, my own
systems, plus that Waveform sub/sat package and the Dunlavy
SC-II pair made use of the wire over full bandwidth.

I noticed a difference with Thiels
and a NAD amp with Kimber and Romex. I know a lot of people want to
call me
crazy or hearing some sort of illusion - but if I manage to become
independetly wealthy where I could pursue rigorous studies without fear
of
unemployment - that might be worth a look.

I am not sure about single-strand Romex, because it might
not clamp up as well as stranded wire, and I am also not
sure of its LCR characteristics. Generally, I recommend that
people who are running wire through the attic or under a
crawl space use the stranded, low-voltage stuff that is
normally used for low-voltage outdoor lighting. I have that
in my middle system, and it is available in 16-, 14-, and
12-AWG sizes. And it is cheap.

Now, it would be possible to maybe hear differences with
pink noise, which allows for a comparison to be kind of like
a visual-chart test for the eyes. With longer leads and
skinny enough wire there would be a slight drop in level,
compared to a shorter, thicker set, and under some
conditions certain kinds of speaker wire would maybe not
roll off the treble above 10 kHz as much.

That is what it sounded like to me - Romex (5' each) to the Kimer 4's
(12'
each) - I was prepared to think that I was hearing things except the
bass
was much fuller (no change to the volume knob) and my wife came in from
gardening and asked if I was fiddling with the tone controls.

I have heard this "my wife heard differences easily"
commentary before, and I continue to believe that it
involves the wife simply listening from a different location
to a different piece of music. Standing-wave propagation
would have an impact here. It also may involve their desire
to humor a husband.

My living-room system makes use of 4-foot sections of 12-AWG
wire that is very similar to the big standard Monster stuff
(purchased at Home Depot years ago for 33 cents a foot). I
use it, because it looks better than black or brown wire
against the hard-wood floors in there. In any case, I have
also used it during some comparisons and it sounded the same
as 16-AWG lamp cord sections 24 feet long. Again, this was
with music.

Actually, a while back I had a chance to fool with an ABX
device and although I was mainly interested in comparing a
variety of amplifiers, I also compared some wire (in one
case, comparing a cheap amp/wire combination to an expensive
wire/amp combination), and I simply could not reliably spot
differences. Neither could several guests that I invited
over.

Given the way some enthusiasts laud the easily superior
performance of some wire (and amps), the whole procedure
strongly burnished my already profound skepticism.

With the Dunlavy
Z6 wire (the set I reviewed had a list price of over $500),
which was a bundled group of wires around a spaced
perimeter, a difference might show up against the lamp cord,
due to its unusual LCR characteristics.

I don't think that price equates to performance, but I was surprised to
find
differences. I am glad you seem open minded enough to entertain that
there
might be a difference in some cases.

Yep. If one listens a lot to pink noise those wires might
make a small but to some people meaningful difference.
Fortunately for me, I prefer listening to music.

Howard Ferstler