Hi all
My interests are classical-piano,orchestral,opera...-and jazz.
My room is 26x14,the Nand S walls are 26',the W side is a window and
the E side is opened to a foyer and the dining room.The couches are
along the N and S walls
I have listened to Vienna Acoustics Mozart,Magnepan 1.6 and B+W.I'd
pick Maggies but they are just too big.My wife and I liked the sound
stage and warmth of the Mozart much better than the BW.
Since the mozarts cost a pretty penny and since I have read tons of
reviews about such speakers as Martin Logan,Totem,Paradigm,Definitive
Technology and particularly Vandersteen CE2 I am wondering if anyone
has any recommendation to help me choose as there are no dealers of
those other speakers in my area.
As an ancillary question,I'd appreciate suggestions re (1) equipment
to hook to the speakers particularly capable of outputting the same
music to 2 ( or 3 )different rooms and (2) bookshelf speakers for our
bedrooms that would be of comparable quality to the Vienna bookshelf
but,I hope, a tad cheaper.
Thank you all

Hi all
My interests are classical-piano,orchestral,opera...-and jazz.
My room is 26x14,the Nand S walls are 26',the W side is a window and
the E side is opened to a foyer and the dining room.The couches are
along the N and S walls
I have listened to Vienna Acoustics Mozart,Magnepan 1.6 and B+W.I'd
pick Maggies but they are just too big.My wife and I liked the sound
stage and warmth of the Mozart much better than the BW.
Since the mozarts cost a pretty penny and since I have read tons of
reviews about such speakers as Martin Logan,Totem,Paradigm,Definitive
Technology and particularly Vandersteen CE2 I am wondering if anyone
has any recommendation to help me choose as there are no dealers of
those other speakers in my area.
As an ancillary question,I'd appreciate suggestions re (1) equipment
to hook to the speakers particularly capable of outputting the same
music to 2 ( or 3 )different rooms and (2) bookshelf speakers for our
bedrooms that would be of comparable quality to the Vienna bookshelf
but,I hope, a tad cheaper.
Thank you all

BRBR

Persoanlly I like the Vandersteens very much. I suspect that if the Maggies
were too big the Martin Logans may be as well.

I'm partial to Thiels myself (listening tastes are similar) particularly if
teamed up with tube amplification (doesn't sound like this is the direction
you are headed, but with an AV preamp with second room capabilities, a tube
power amp (say VTL 125) and Thiel 3.6's should give you the coherence you
love from the Maggies and a warmer sound than the B&W's but still very
neutral.

Thiel also makes bookshelf speakers called (I believe) SCS's.

If you can find a dealer nearby, give a listen...and asked for a listen with
tubes before you say yea or nay to trying them at home.

Good luck in your search.

Harry

"Pierre de Ravel" wrote in message
news:0CTAb.332740$ao4.1116105@attbi_s51...
Hi all
My interests are classical-piano,orchestral,opera...-and jazz.
My room is 26x14,the Nand S walls are 26',the W side is a window and
the E side is opened to a foyer and the dining room.The couches are
along the N and S walls
I have listened to Vienna Acoustics Mozart,Magnepan 1.6 and B+W.I'd
pick Maggies but they are just too big.My wife and I liked the sound
stage and warmth of the Mozart much better than the BW.
Since the mozarts cost a pretty penny and since I have read tons of
reviews about such speakers as Martin Logan,Totem,Paradigm,Definitive
Technology and particularly Vandersteen CE2 I am wondering if anyone
has any recommendation to help me choose as there are no dealers of
those other speakers in my area.
As an ancillary question,I'd appreciate suggestions re (1) equipment
to hook to the speakers particularly capable of outputting the same
music to 2 ( or 3 )different rooms and (2) bookshelf speakers for our
bedrooms that would be of comparable quality to the Vienna bookshelf
but,I hope, a tad cheaper.
Thank you all

My take on several of your mentions as follows:

Martin Logans - Their smaller speakers (I owned a pair of Aeriuses, now
discontinued, for several years) are wonderfully open and transparent in the
mid-band, particularly on female vocals and small scale chamber music.
Their failings are generally in bass extension and an inability to generate
realistic volumes on orchestral, the latter manifest by dynamic compression
and congestion as the volume increases.

Vandersteen 2CE - I owned a pair of these for several years before the
Martin Logans. I find them to be the polar opposites of the Logans. Their
bass extension is very good and they possess excellent dynamic capabilities,
but I've always found this speaker somewhat rolled off in the treble and a
bit muddy in the mid-bass, which yields to my ear a lack of transparency.

I've been living with the Paradigm Studio 100s v.2 for the last year or two
and find them to be as good as I can reasonably expect to afford. The
failings of the Vandersteens and Logans that I previously mentioned revealed
themselves to me within the first year of ownership. Having had the
Paradigms for just over a year now, I can't find fault with them. The
mid-band is transparent and does the vocal "in the room" thing as well as
the Logans did, and their extension at both frequency extremes is just
outstanding. Also, when fed with enough power (I drive mine with a Plinius
8200P at 175 wpc) they play as loud in my 21x13 room as I would ever want to
listen. I've written before that at $2,000 I find them to be a tremdous
value, out performing most speakers twice their price.

I'm not well enough versed in multi-room systems to comment on that
question, but as regards your bookshelf speakers and sticking with my
overall satisfaction with the Paradigm Studio series, I don't think you can
beat the Studio 20s at about $700. They might be the best under $1,000
speaker you can buy.

"Pierre de Ravel" wrote in message
news:0CTAb.332740$ao4.1116105@attbi_s51...
Hi all
My interests are classical-piano,orchestral,opera...-and jazz.
My room is 26x14,the Nand S walls are 26',the W side is a window and
the E side is opened to a foyer and the dining room.The couches are
along the N and S walls
I have listened to Vienna Acoustics Mozart,Magnepan 1.6 and B+W.I'd
pick Maggies but they are just too big.My wife and I liked the sound
stage and warmth of the Mozart much better than the BW.
Since the mozarts cost a pretty penny and since I have read tons of
reviews about such speakers as Martin Logan,Totem,Paradigm,Definitive
Technology and particularly Vandersteen CE2 I am wondering if anyone
has any recommendation to help me choose as there are no dealers of
those other speakers in my area.
As an ancillary question,I'd appreciate suggestions re (1) equipment
to hook to the speakers particularly capable of outputting the same
music to 2 ( or 3 )different rooms and (2) bookshelf speakers for our
bedrooms that would be of comparable quality to the Vienna bookshelf
but,I hope, a tad cheaper.
Thank you all

Scott Wheeler wrote:



Hi all
My interests are classical-piano,orchestral,opera...-and jazz.
My room is 26x14,the Nand S walls are 26',the W side is a window and
the E side is opened to a foyer and the dining room.The couches are
along the N and S walls
I have listened to Vienna Acoustics Mozart,Magnepan 1.6 and B+W.I'd
pick Maggies but they are just too big.My wife and I liked the sound
stage and warmth of the Mozart much better than the BW.
Since the mozarts cost a pretty penny and since I have read tons of
reviews about such speakers as Martin Logan,Totem,Paradigm,Definitive
Technology and particularly Vandersteen CE2 I am wondering if anyone
has any recommendation to help me choose as there are no dealers of
those other speakers in my area.
As an ancillary question,I'd appreciate suggestions re (1) equipment
to hook to the speakers particularly capable of outputting the same
music to 2 ( or 3 )different rooms and (2) bookshelf speakers for our
bedrooms that would be of comparable quality to the Vienna bookshelf
but,I hope, a tad cheaper.
Thank you all



Persoanlly I like the Vandersteens very much. I suspect that if the
Maggieswere too big the Martin Logans may be as well.







Agreed. On a dollar-for-dollar basis, I think the Vandersteens represent some
of the best speaker values around. And because of their "open cabinet"
construction (see their website), they also can produce some of the same
dipolar radiation effects that those that like planar dipoles such as
Magneplanars and Martin Logans appreciate.

Martin Logan has recently introduced some smaller floor standing models, so you
might want to check out their website. Also, many of the Martin Logan models
are not as wide as Magneplanars so may not tend to look as dominant in a given
room.

For the record, I've owned Martin Logans for many years and think they make
excellent speakers. My 2nd choice would be Magneplanars.



Bruce J. Richman

Bruce J. Richman wrote:

For the record, I've owned Martin Logans for many years and think they make
excellent speakers. My 2nd choice would be Magneplanars.

ML has a couple of planar speakers as well. From what I hear, they compete
with the Magnepans very well, but take up almost no floor space.

(S888Wheel) wrote in message ...

Hi all
My interests are classical-piano,orchestral,opera...-and jazz.

You should look on e-bay for Yamaha NS1000 speakers. Introduced in the
mid-1970s, and discontinued only recently. Beryllium drivers and huge
magnets. Fabulous sound for all genres of music.

Fast, ultra-clean, and natural sound.

On Tue, 09 Dec 2003 17:05:33 GMT, (Michael
Scarpitti) wrote:

(S888Wheel) wrote in message ...

Hi all
My interests are classical-piano,orchestral,opera...-and jazz.

You should look on e-bay for Yamaha NS1000 speakers. Introduced in the
mid-1970s, and discontinued only recently. Beryllium drivers and huge
magnets. Fabulous sound for all genres of music.

Fast, ultra-clean, and natural sound.

YMMV. I would definitely not recommend these for a classical buff
although they were certainly formidable in their day.

Kal

In article 0CTAb.332740$ao4.1116105@attbi_s51,
Pierre de Ravel wrote:

My interests are classical-piano,orchestral,opera...-and jazz.
I have listened to Vienna Acoustics Mozart,Magnepan 1.6 and B+W.I'd
pick Maggies but they are just too big.My wife and I liked the sound
stage and warmth of the Mozart much better than the BW.
Since the mozarts cost a pretty penny and since I have read tons of
reviews about such speakers as Martin Logan,Totem,Paradigm,Definitive
Technology and particularly Vandersteen CE2 I am wondering if anyone
has any recommendation to help me choose as there are no dealers of
those other speakers in my area.

Most of my music is classical, as well. I've listened to a few of
those you've listened to, or are considering. My impressions:

VA Mozart: A very decent speaker, with good sound reproduction... but
it's not so great that it can justify its price while not being a
full-range speaker. Very attractive build quality, though.

B&W: They've got a lot of fans, and they're not bad, but the ones
I've listened to (in the $2-$3K range) didn't do much for me, and
certainly not for the price.

Martin Logan: Electrostatics like the Magnepan, of course, but more
likely to fit in your room. I've really, really liked the ML speakers
I've listened to -- very open and uncolored. The main drawback is the
lack of bass extension. (Also, I've heard that placement can be
tricky with them.)

Paradigm: I ended up buying a pair of Studio 100s recently, so it
ought to be obvious that this is the one I like the best. Very
neutral sound with no obvious coloration; smooth and unfatiguing
high-end; great dynamic range, playing with authority at high volume
and unmuffled at low volume; and very solid bass. For the money, I
think it's very difficult to find a speaker that does everything as
well as the Studio 100. The biggest downside to them is a somewhat
plasticky look, as they don't have real wood veneers. They're
definitely worth a listen (and I'm surprised that there's no dealer in
your area, since Paradigm is one of the more well-distributed brands
out there.)

--
Mike Kozlowski
http://www.klio.org/mlk/

On 9 Dec 2003 18:58:22 GMT, Mike Kozlowski wrote:

Martin Logan: Electrostatics like the Magnepan, of course, but more
likely to fit in your room.

And, of course, Magnepans are not electrostatics.

Kal

From: Mike Kozlowski

Paradigm: I ended up buying a pair of Studio 100s recently, so it
ought to be obvious that this is the one I like the best. Very
neutral sound with no obvious coloration; smooth and unfatiguing
high-end; great dynamic range, playing with authority at high volume
and unmuffled at low volume; and very solid bass. For the money, I
think it's very difficult to find a speaker that does everything as
well as the Studio 100. The biggest downside to them is a somewhat
plasticky look, as they don't have real wood veneers. They're
definitely worth a listen (and I'm surprised that there's no dealer in
your area, since Paradigm is one of the more well-distributed brands
out there.)


I thought Paradigm's Reference Studio line was available in different finishes.

"Mike Kozlowski" wrote in message
...
*snip*

Paradigm: I ended up buying a pair of Studio 100s recently, so it
ought to be obvious that this is the one I like the best. Very
neutral sound with no obvious coloration; smooth and unfatiguing
high-end; great dynamic range, playing with authority at high volume
and unmuffled at low volume; and very solid bass. For the money, I
think it's very difficult to find a speaker that does everything as
well as the Studio 100. The biggest downside to them is a somewhat
plasticky look, as they don't have real wood veneers. They're
definitely worth a listen (and I'm surprised that there's no dealer in
your area, since Paradigm is one of the more well-distributed brands
out there.)

I agree 100% with the evaluation of the Studio 100s, but should point out
that they are available in real wood veneers (Sycamore, Cherry & Rosenut)
for around an extra $150 or so.
--
Mike Kozlowski
http://www.klio.org/mlk/

In article ,
Farrell8882 wrote:
From: Mike Kozlowski

and unmuffled at low volume; and very solid bass. For the money, I
think it's very difficult to find a speaker that does everything as
well as the Studio 100. The biggest downside to them is a somewhat
plasticky look, as they don't have real wood veneers. They're
definitely worth a listen (and I'm surprised that there's no dealer in
your area, since Paradigm is one of the more well-distributed brands
out there.)


I thought Paradigm's Reference Studio line was available in
different finishes.

It used to be, but the new v.3s no longer offer the veneer option
(though they still offer a number of different colors of vinyl
laminate, which are reasonably attractive). If I were slightly more
cynical, I'd suspect that they wanted the difference between the
Studio series and their new high-end Signature series to be very
visually obvious.

--
Mike Kozlowski
http://www.klio.org/mlk/

I thought Paradigm's Reference Studio line was available in
different finishes.

It used to be, but the new v.3s no longer offer the veneer option
(though they still offer a number of different colors of vinyl
laminate, which are reasonably attractive). If I were slightly more
cynical, I'd suspect that they wanted the difference between the
Studio series and their new high-end Signature series to be very
visually obvious.


Be cynical. Sounds reasonable to me.

On 9 Dec 2003 17:48:50 GMT, Kalman Rubinson wrote:

On Tue, 09 Dec 2003 17:05:33 GMT, (Michael
Scarpitti) wrote:

(S888Wheel) wrote in message ...

Hi all
My interests are classical-piano,orchestral,opera...-and jazz.

You should look on e-bay for Yamaha NS1000 speakers. Introduced in the
mid-1970s, and discontinued only recently. Beryllium drivers and huge
magnets. Fabulous sound for all genres of music.

Fast, ultra-clean, and natural sound.

YMMV. I would definitely not recommend these for a classical buff
although they were certainly formidable in their day.

Agreed. A very *dramatic* speaker, certainly good for conveying
'emotional content' on jazz and the like, but lacking a neutral
overall balance.

Perhaps a better modern choice would be Dynaudio. For the speaker
budget implied by the posters choices, I'd say that a pair of Audience
52SEs would be hard to beat, especially if combined with a Paradigm
Servo-15 or other good sub. This generally combines excellent sound
with high WAF.............
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

Hi all
My interests are classical-piano,orchestral,opera...-and jazz.

You should look on e-bay for Yamaha NS1000 speakers. Introduced in the
mid-1970s, and discontinued only recently. Beryllium drivers and huge
magnets. Fabulous sound for all genres of music.

Fast, ultra-clean, and natural sound.

A word of caution ... I think you (original poster) said you
wanted a warmer sound. I owned a pair of Yamaha NS????
speakers in the timeframe listed. I think they were this
model. If so, the sound was not at all warm.

In general, I'd recommend you avoid eBay for speakers. Though
there may be some good values, you need to listen before you
buy.


Mike Prager
North Carolina, USA

Stewart Pinkerton wrote:

...I'd say that a pair of Audience
52SEs...generally combines excellent sound
with high WAF.............

Speaking of WAF:

I was able to get a brand-new pair of Mark Levinson's Red Rose Rosebud
two-way bookshelf speakers at an incredibly advantageous price. Put
them into the system and was playing a 1960s vintage English Decca LP of
Dvorak's 7th Symphony (LSO/Monteux) when my wife walked in. She
immediately said, "That's the most real sound I've EVER heard from a
pair of speakers. Whatever they cost, they're worth it." The ultimate WAF!

We've gotten used to them by now, and she's still marvels over them, on
far newer program material, too. There is something very special about
the ribbon tweeters on these little boxes. Sonically I would highly
recommend them for classical music listeners, but the regular price of
over $3000 a pair would make me think about it for a long, long time,
even though I was seduced by their sound long before buying them.

-GP

Kalman Rubinson wrote in message ...
On Tue, 09 Dec 2003 17:05:33 GMT, (Michael
Scarpitti) wrote:

(S888Wheel) wrote in message ...

Hi all
My interests are classical-piano,orchestral,opera...-and jazz.

You should look on e-bay for Yamaha NS1000 speakers. Introduced in the
mid-1970s, and discontinued only recently. Beryllium drivers and huge
magnets. Fabulous sound for all genres of music.

Fast, ultra-clean, and natural sound.

YMMV. I would definitely not recommend these for a classical buff
although they were certainly formidable in their day.

Why do you say that? I just got a pair two years ago, and they are
stunning in every way.


Kal

(Stewart Pinkerton) wrote in message ...
On 9 Dec 2003 17:48:50 GMT, Kalman Rubinson wrote:

On Tue, 09 Dec 2003 17:05:33 GMT, (Michael
Scarpitti) wrote:

(S888Wheel) wrote in message ...

Hi all
My interests are classical-piano,orchestral,opera...-and jazz.

You should look on e-bay for Yamaha NS1000 speakers. Introduced in the
mid-1970s, and discontinued only recently. Beryllium drivers and huge
magnets. Fabulous sound for all genres of music.

Fast, ultra-clean, and natural sound.

YMMV. I would definitely not recommend these for a classical buff
although they were certainly formidable in their day.

Agreed. A very *dramatic* speaker, certainly good for conveying
'emotional content' on jazz and the like, but lacking a neutral
overall balance.

Perhaps a better modern choice would be Dynaudio. For the speaker
budget implied by the posters choices, I'd say that a pair of Audience
52SEs would be hard to beat, especially if combined with a Paradigm
Servo-15 or other good sub. This generally combines excellent sound
with high WAF.............

I would like to add my vote to Mr Pinkerton's suggestion. I own a pair
of the very same and would say they are very good indeed for classical
music.
In fact they are very good indeed for all music types.

On Thu, 11 Dec 2003 18:17:55 GMT, (Michael
Scarpitti) wrote:

Kalman Rubinson wrote in message ...
YMMV. I would definitely not recommend these for a classical buff
although they were certainly formidable in their day.

Why do you say that? I just got a pair two years ago, and they are
stunning in every way.

I am glad you are pleased. I find that they lack balance due to
excessive midbass and treble. They also fail to image well. I do not
think they are suitable for classical although they may suffice for
other sources/tastes.

Kal

Mike Prager wrote in message ...
Hi all
My interests are classical-piano,orchestral,opera...-and jazz.

You should look on e-bay for Yamaha NS1000 speakers. Introduced in the
mid-1970s, and discontinued only recently. Beryllium drivers and huge
magnets. Fabulous sound for all genres of music.

Fast, ultra-clean, and natural sound.

A word of caution ... I think you (original poster) said you
wanted a warmer sound. I owned a pair of Yamaha NS????
speakers in the timeframe listed. I think they were this
model. If so, the sound was not at all warm.

In general, I'd recommend you avoid eBay for speakers. Though
there may be some good values, you need to listen before you
buy.



Prager
North Carolina, USA

I have had the opportunity to listen to many high-end speakers over
the years, and the Yammies are so much more listenable...

On 11 Dec 2003 23:01:23 GMT, (Michael
Scarpitti) wrote:

I have had the opportunity to listen to many high-end speakers over
the years, and the Yammies are so much more listenable...

As I said, YMMV. There's no accounting for taste but I wish you long
enjoyment.

Kal

Kalman Rubinson wrote:

On 11 Dec 2003 23:01:23 GMT, (Michael
Scarpitti) wrote:

I have had the opportunity to listen to many high-end speakers over
the years, and the Yammies are so much more listenable...

As I said, YMMV. There's no accounting for taste but I wish you long
enjoyment.

Kal

....and I join Kal in wishing Mike continued pleasure with his
Yamahas. It's differences in taste that make life interesting
-- or maybe even make life possible.

Mike Prager
North Carolina, USA

On Thu, 11 Dec 2003 18:17:55 GMT, (Michael
Scarpitti) wrote:

Kalman Rubinson wrote in message ...
On Tue, 09 Dec 2003 17:05:33 GMT, (Michael
Scarpitti) wrote:

(S888Wheel) wrote in message ...

Hi all
My interests are classical-piano,orchestral,opera...-and jazz.

You should look on e-bay for Yamaha NS1000 speakers. Introduced in the
mid-1970s, and discontinued only recently. Beryllium drivers and huge
magnets. Fabulous sound for all genres of music.

Fast, ultra-clean, and natural sound.

YMMV. I would definitely not recommend these for a classical buff
although they were certainly formidable in their day.

Why do you say that? I just got a pair two years ago, and they are
stunning in every way.

Yes, we know that *you* like them, but lots of us have owned these old
classics at one time, and like all speakers, they are not perfect.
They have pretty ragged treble, for one thing, and are forward in the
lower midband, which makes them very dramatic, but some would say they
have an unnatural balance, and can become fatiguing quite quickly.
They also image poorly when compared to designs with vertically
aligned drivers and narrow baffles.

As with other areas of debate, perhaps you would do well to remember
that your personal opinion is just that, and is not a universal truth.
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

Kalman Rubinson wrote in message news:Qi8Cb.89201$_M.465220@attbi_s54...
On 11 Dec 2003 23:01:23 GMT, (Michael
Scarpitti) wrote:

I have had the opportunity to listen to many high-end speakers over
the years, and the Yammies are so much more listenable...

As I said, YMMV. There's no accounting for taste but I wish you long
enjoyment.

Kal

The trend in recent years is speakers with harsh, exaggerated highs. I
find many of these unlistenable. The Yammies are flat, fast, and
clean. They are eerily similar to my Stax Lambda's in presentation.

(Stewart Pinkerton) wrote:
As with other areas of debate, perhaps you would do well to remember
that your personal opinion is just that, and is not a universal truth.


In all your years of debating issues here, this is the perhaps the truest of
your posts. You would do well to remember this, too.
Regards,
Mike

Michael Scarpitti wrote:
Kalman Rubinson wrote in message news:Qi8Cb.89201$_M.465220@attbi_s54...
On 11 Dec 2003 23:01:23 GMT, (Michael
Scarpitti) wrote:

I have had the opportunity to listen to many high-end speakers over
the years, and the Yammies are so much more listenable...

As I said, YMMV. There's no accounting for taste but I wish you long
enjoyment.

Kal

The trend in recent years is speakers with harsh, exaggerated highs. I
find many of these unlistenable. The Yammies are flat, fast, and
clean. They are eerily similar to my Stax Lambda's in presentation.

Any published specs on the Yamahas (for the 'flat' and 'clean' claims,
at least)?


--

-S.

"They've got God on their side. All we've got is science and reason."
-- Dawn Hulsey, Talent Director

Steven Sullivan wrote:
Michael Scarpitti wrote:

Kalman Rubinson wrote in message news:Qi8Cb.89201$_M.465220@attbi_s54...

On 11 Dec 2003 23:01:23 GMT, (Michael
Scarpitti) wrote:


I have had the opportunity to listen to many high-end speakers over
the years, and the Yammies are so much more listenable...

As I said, YMMV. There's no accounting for taste but I wish you long
enjoyment.

Kal


The trend in recent years is speakers with harsh, exaggerated highs. I
find many of these unlistenable. The Yammies are flat, fast, and
clean. They are eerily similar to my Stax Lambda's in presentation.


Any published specs on the Yamahas (for the 'flat' and 'clean' claims,
at least)?


I have measured a Yamaha NS690-I which is a smaller(42litre) variant
of the NS1000M;it would be termed an accurate speaker;neither warm nor
bright with an accuracy score 92% over a 40-16khz range;few modern
speakers score this high;data was taken with the CLIO MLS
system(similar to MLSSA).It had near optimum damping with Qtc=0.68,
Fc= 44.7hz with -3/10db at 46/26 hz.

On Fri, 12 Dec 2003 22:25:49 GMT, (Terry E.
Dwyer) wrote:

I have measured a Yamaha NS690-I which is a smaller(42litre) variant
of the NS1000M;it would be termed an accurate speaker;neither warm nor
bright with an accuracy score 92% over a 40-16khz range;

What is an accuracy score? How does that relate to on-axis and
off-axis response?

Kal

Kalman Rubinson wrote:
On Fri, 12 Dec 2003 22:25:49 GMT, (Terry E.
Dwyer) wrote:


I have measured a Yamaha NS690-I which is a smaller(42litre) variant
of the NS1000M;it would be termed an accurate speaker;neither warm nor
bright with an accuracy score 92% over a 40-16khz range;


What is an accuracy score? How does that relate to on-axis and
off-axis response?

Kal

An accuracy score is a measure of conformance to flat frequecy
response;Consumer reports magazine has reported %accuracy speaker scores
for many years based on Anechoic tests.It is now quite easy
to do with computerized test systems such as CLIO & MLSSA.The
statistical standard deviation is calculated after conversion from db to
Sones which are linear units of sound volume.On-off axis response would
be factored in by taking averaged readings over an interval such as +-30
degrees in the original measurements.

On Fri, 12 Dec 2003 17:39:09 GMT, (Mkuller) wrote:

(Stewart Pinkerton) wrote:
As with other areas of debate, perhaps you would do well to remember
that your personal opinion is just that, and is not a universal truth.

In all your years of debating issues here, this is the perhaps the truest of
your posts. You would do well to remember this, too.

I try always to remember this, which is why I much prefer to base my
debating points on test results which are reliable, repeatable and
falsifiable, i.e not sighted tests. I find this more persuasive than
mere assertion, repeated ad nauseam.
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

On 12 Dec 2003 18:23:10 GMT, Steven Sullivan wrote:

Michael Scarpitti wrote:
Kalman Rubinson wrote in message news:Qi8Cb.89201$_M.465220@attbi_s54...
On 11 Dec 2003 23:01:23 GMT, (Michael
Scarpitti) wrote:

I have had the opportunity to listen to many high-end speakers over
the years, and the Yammies are so much more listenable...

As I said, YMMV. There's no accounting for taste but I wish you long
enjoyment.

Kal

The trend in recent years is speakers with harsh, exaggerated highs. I
find many of these unlistenable. The Yammies are flat, fast, and
clean. They are eerily similar to my Stax Lambda's in presentation.

Any published specs on the Yamahas (for the 'flat' and 'clean' claims,
at least)?

The last reasonably technical test I saw of the NS-1000M was in Hi-Fi
Choice 'Loudspeakers' of 1976. It shows a noticeable lift of 3 dB or
so in the octave surrounding 1 kHz, leading to exactly the 'fast and
detailed' comments made by Scarpitti. Linn use this same basic trick
on many of their speakers. Later tests also reveal that the Yammy
tweeter has high distortion, as the poorly-damped surround contributes
almost half the output at 10kHz!

Having said this, the Yammy was one of the lowest-distortion speakers
available in the '70s, and did indeed have a noticeably 'clean' sound
compared to most of its peers. That 88mm beryllium midrange dome was ,
like the modern ATC dome, a *very* special driver. OTOH, that was more
than a quarter of a cenntury ago, and we've moved on from there......
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

(Stewart Pinkerton) wrote in message ...

YMMV. I would definitely not recommend these for a classical buff
although they were certainly formidable in their day.

Why do you say that? I just got a pair two years ago, and they are
stunning in every way.

Yes, we know that *you* like them, but lots of us have owned these old
classics at one time, and like all speakers, they are not perfect.
They have pretty ragged treble,

This I find surprising. It is one of their strong points. The
beryllium drivers offer tremendous speed and clarity.

for one thing, and are forward in the
lower midband, which makes them very dramatic, but some would say they
have an unnatural balance, and can become fatiguing quite quickly.

Again, I disagree. They are quite flat to my ears.

They also image poorly when compared to designs with vertically
aligned drivers and narrow baffles.

Not in my experience when compared to the Rogers Studio 1's, which I
disposed of to get the Yammies. The Rogers (design very similar to the
Spendor BC1 and SP1/2) are supposed to be among the best imaging ever.

As with other areas of debate, perhaps you would do well to remember
that your personal opinion is just that, and is not a universal truth.

The original poster wanted recommendations, if I recall correctly. In
that context, opinion is the primary criterion.

In article ,
Stewart Pinkerton wrote:

Having said this, the Yammy was one of the lowest-distortion speakers

That isn't my memory; I found them highly irritating. I much preferred
the Rogers LS3/5a and other designs uisng the KEF drivers, particularly
Bud Fried's designs (the Fried H was popular as a kit).

Mike Squires
--

Mike Squires (mikes at cs.indiana.edu) 317 233 9456 (w) 812 333 6564 (h)
mikes at siralan.org 546 N Park Ridge Rd., Bloomington, IN 47408

On 13 Dec 2003 17:43:13 GMT, (Terry E.
Dwyer) wrote:

An accuracy score is a measure of conformance to flat frequecy
response;Consumer reports magazine has reported %accuracy speaker scores
for many years based on Anechoic tests.It is now quite easy
to do with computerized test systems such as CLIO & MLSSA.The
statistical standard deviation is calculated after conversion from db to
Sones which are linear units of sound volume.On-off axis response would
be factored in by taking averaged readings over an interval such as +-30
degrees in the original measurements.

Most impressive to score so high but I'd much rather see the data,
especially over a wider lateral range. Too many speakers do well
on-axis but have their downfall in how their off-axis radiations
interact with room surfaces and the consequent re-integration with the
direct sound at the listening position.

That said, my experience with the Yamaha NS1000 is purely subjective
and my reactions decidedly mixed.

Kal

On Sat, 13 Dec 2003 20:36:21 GMT, (Michael
Squires) wrote:

In article ,
Stewart Pinkerton wrote:

Having said this, the Yammy was one of the lowest-distortion speakers

That isn't my memory;

Doesn't have to be - it was a measurable fact. Indeed, their dynamic
range was such that they could function very well as studio monitors.

I found them highly irritating.

Yup, they did have bright treble and a forward midband.

I much preferred
the Rogers LS3/5a and other designs uisng the KEF drivers, particularly
Bud Fried's designs (the Fried H was popular as a kit).

Hardly comparable, since they had no bass and could not produce decent
SPLs, both quite unlike the NS1000M!
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

(Michael Squires) wrote in message news:9LKCb.536276$Tr4.1466565@attbi_s03...
In article ,
Stewart Pinkerton wrote:

Having said this, the Yammy was one of the lowest-distortion speakers

That isn't my memory; I found them highly irritating. I much preferred
the Rogers LS3/5a and other designs uisng the KEF drivers, particularly
Bud Fried's designs (the Fried H was popular as a kit).

Mike Squires

I got rid of my Rogers Studio 1's after 20 years because they Yammies
totally out-classed them. The Rogers Studio 1's use some of the same
drivers as the LS3/5a, I believe. I brought the Yammies home and did a
side-by-side comparison on a number of reordings. The Yammies are
faster, cleaner, leaner, more 'open' sounding, less colored, less
boxy, less boomy, etc..... There really was no comparison whatsoever,
and I really thought highly of the Rogers Studio 1's. I can listen to
old Firesign Theatre recordings, for instance made in the early 70's,
and I can detect the fake-sounding echo-chamber effects in detail.
this was not possible on the Rogers Studio 1's.

No contest.

(Michael
Squires) wrote:
I much preferred
the Rogers LS3/5a and other designs uisng the KEF drivers, particularly
Bud Fried's designs (the Fried H was popular as a kit).


(Stewart Pinkerton) wrote:
Hardly comparable, since they had no bass and could not produce decent
SPLs, both quite unlike the NS1000M!


I would have to agree that the LS3/5a was a much more musical speaker than the
NS1000M. The LS3/5a was much more coherant - the NS1000M upper frequencies
were bright and different from the rest - and the LS created a palpable 3D
image that the Yamaha could only suggest. That the LS lacked bass extension
and couldn't play as loud was a similar shortcoming of the Quad 63 but didn't
discourage people who know what real music sounds like.
Regards,
Mike

Hi Kal,

I generally agree with your comments but would add that the impulse and step
responses are also very important to the truly accurate reproduction of complex
musical transients, etc.

John Dunlavy
email:

On Sun, 14 Dec 2003 19:31:04 GMT, (Michael
Scarpitti) wrote:

I got rid of my Rogers Studio 1's after 20 years because they Yammies
totally out-classed them. The Rogers Studio 1's use some of the same
drivers as the LS3/5a, I believe. I brought the Yammies home and did a
side-by-side comparison on a number of reordings. The Yammies are
faster, cleaner, leaner, more 'open' sounding, less colored, less
boxy, less boomy, etc..... There really was no comparison whatsoever,
and I really thought highly of the Rogers Studio 1's. I can listen to
old Firesign Theatre recordings, for instance made in the early 70's,
and I can detect the fake-sounding echo-chamber effects in detail.
this was not possible on the Rogers Studio 1's.

But all of that's water under the bridge today when there are superior
speakers from a number of sources.

No contest.

Yup.

Kal