The Devil wrote:
On Mon, 06 Oct 2003 10:21:52 GMT, trotsky wrote:


The only beef I have with you, PD, is that you didn't apply the same
scrutiny to weil's attempt at a review as you did with my efforts. In
fact, I think you totally gave him a free pass, which is unfair. Beyond
that, I really do welcome feedback that I deem to be credible, which
yours certainly is.


What was wrong with dave's review? You asked him to be honest about
his findings, didn't you? So what exactly has he done wrong--besides
not kiss your arse? You were quiet when dave was positive or neutral
in his comments, but as soon as he moved on to talk about your
speakers in the context of his impressions of other speakers, your
mood soured.

I mean, you actually complained to him that he wasn't focusing enough
on the Europa's strengths.

Whose review was this, again?

Are you going to have a petulant fit of control-freakery each time a
reviewer describes your speakers in language you dislike or wish to
outlaw from 'legitimate'* audio discussions?

Because you seriously thing that Trostsky will find other reviewers ?

For example, it has
become apparent that the Europas lack the bass extension and power
necessary to convey the energy of a rock performance. dave used the
age old euphemism 'lean' to describe the bass aspect of your
speakers--which as we all know really means that bass extension is
lacking (which is not to say that what's available isn't good--or even
the best). You have yourself said the bass drops off 'like a stone'
below 50Hz. So why bitch about him saying the bass is lean, if that is
his impression of it and dave knows how audiophiles will interpret
that comment?


The problem is that, originally, this lack of bass extension is a full
part of his marketing plan :
"Not enough bass ? You need a subterfuge !"

I mean really, Greg. You've totally ****ed yourself over this whole
thing. You have cast yourself in a dreadful light. I don't think
anyone who has followed this would want to buy speakers from you,

"I don't care anyway because I haven't anymore screw to assemble them"

not
least because you have shown what a revolting **** of an individual
you become when someone disagrees with you.

Imagine the guy who come back with the speakers and the "return policy"
innocently saying :
"Mr. Singh, I have a problem with your speakers !"


How will you react when a reviewer says the Europas are not actually
as good as speakers that cost ten times as much. Or maybe half as
much? What about if a reviewer should say that your speakers aren't
actually as extraordinary as you, their loving father, thinks they
are?

"Reviewers ? I will lynch them all"

You'll fail at this, Greg. I think everyone sees it except you. You
should buy some cakes (English scones, perhaps). At least get some
satisfaction out of your money while it lasts.

--
td

* Meaning what you say is legitimate.

The Devil wrote:
On Mon, 06 Oct 2003 10:21:52 GMT, trotsky wrote:


The only beef I have with you, PD, is that you didn't apply the same
scrutiny to weil's attempt at a review as you did with my efforts. In
fact, I think you totally gave him a free pass, which is unfair. Beyond
that, I really do welcome feedback that I deem to be credible, which
yours certainly is.


What was wrong with dave's review?


It would be easier to ask what was right with it. I do find it curious,
though, that I've written several notes on the subject and you would
still ask this question.


You asked him to be honest about
his findings, didn't you?


I'm not sure where you're going with this, Dev. If you can discern what
his findings actually were, then mister you're a better man than I.


So what exactly has he done wrong--besides
not kiss your arse?


Dev, you claim to be a writer--you should know what bad writing is.
Also, if you think or have ever thought that I would conduct any aspect
without the utmost of integrity than you are unbelievably full of ****e.
I have *never* spammed this group, shilled for anything, or anything
like that.


You were quiet when dave was positive or neutral
in his comments, but as soon as he moved on to talk about your
speakers in the context of his impressions of other speakers, your
mood soured.


That's not accurate. I waited till I thought his review was finished,
and stated what I thought, just as I originally said I was going to. My
position on this is beyond reproach, and yet, in true RAO fashion, some
viper comes slithering out of the woodwork with something erroneous to say.


I mean, you actually complained to him that he wasn't focusing enough
on the Europa's strengths.


Bad writing. Audio reviews are full of it (no pun intended).


Whose review was this, again?


I'm a very critical listener, Dev, and these are very good speakers.
dave did a poor, almost nonexistent job of communicating this fact.


Are you going to have a petulant fit of control-freakery each time a
reviewer describes your speakers in language you dislike or wish to
outlaw from 'legitimate'* audio discussions? For example, it has
become apparent that the Europas lack the bass extension and power
necessary to convey the energy of a rock performance. dave used the
age old euphemism 'lean' to describe the bass aspect of your
speakers--which as we all know really means that bass extension is
lacking (which is not to say that what's available isn't good--or even
the best). You have yourself said the bass drops off 'like a stone'
below 50Hz. So why bitch about him saying the bass is lean, if that is
his impression of it and dave knows how audiophiles will interpret
that comment?


Maybe you weren't following along, drunk or whatever--in dave's mind,
"lean bass" isn't a pejorative term, except that in every other piece of
audio writing since the advent of audio it is. The bass of the Europa
withing its operating range is *very* taut and powerful.


I mean really, Greg. You've totally ****ed yourself over this whole
thing.


No, Dev. This is how RAO works: some guys are designated to get dumped
on. Even as vile as Krueger is, he doesn't deserve to be told he ****ed
his dead kid. I don't deserve to be called "Mommy****er" by that sick
******* Middius, either. It's high time for a spade to be called a
spade, and for people like you, Middius, and weil to be told clearly and
succinctly when they are full of ****, and believe me, you are really,
really full of **** on this one. You guys live in a plasticene world
where you think it's foul to be told a discouraging word--the truth.
Sorry, but that isn't going to happen anymore.


You have cast yourself in a dreadful light. I don't think
anyone who has followed this would want to buy speakers from you, not
least because you have shown what a revolting **** of an individual
you become when someone disagrees with you.


I can't believe you have the nerve to say something this wrong--or can
I? If you can ask a guy if he ****ed his dead kid you're pretty much
capable of saying anything, right? What's the matter, Dev, credibility
down the toilet? Damn, I'm all torn up about that. What's with you
guys with rotting brains and incest, anyway? That's not a rhetorical
question, I really want an answer.


How will you react when a reviewer says the Europas are not actually
as good as speakers that cost ten times as much.


Are you an idiot, Dev? Have you never seen a manufacturer react
adversely to a professional reviewers opinion? Oh, and lest we forget,
dave's attempt at reviewing was as far from professional as humanly
possible. You can go **** a family member if you don't like what I'm
saying, of course. Get it through your thick skull: there is no more
chosen few around here anymore. Middius had his chance with his Gene
Roddenberry references, I seriously doubt those are of interest to
anyone anymore. You guys can try and institute a hierarchy of incest
references if you want, I'll still make mincemeat out of all of you.


Or maybe half as
much? What about if a reviewer should say that your speakers aren't
actually as extraordinary as you, their loving father, thinks they
are?


Complete the lie, Dev: do you find dave weil more credible on an audio
matter than me?


You'll fail at this, Greg. I think everyone sees it except you. You
should buy some cakes (English scones, perhaps). At least get some
satisfaction out of your money while it lasts.


Perhaps I will fail. There are plenty of assholes in the world, if this
group is any indication. At least I have the backbone to make an
attempt. dave's attempt at audio reviewing was a train wreck, Dev.
Your attempt at chiding me here is a train wreck too. You need to sit
down for a bit and figure out what the truth is, because your track
record of recognizing what's right and wrong sucks quite frankly.

trotsky wrote:



The Devil wrote:

On Mon, 06 Oct 2003 10:21:52 GMT, trotsky wrote:


The only beef I have with you, PD, is that you didn't apply the same
scrutiny to weil's attempt at a review as you did with my efforts.
In fact, I think you totally gave him a free pass, which is unfair.
Beyond that, I really do welcome feedback that I deem to be credible,
which yours certainly is.



What was wrong with dave's review?



It would be easier to ask what was right with it. I do find it curious,
though, that I've written several notes on the subject and you would
still ask this question.


You asked him to be honest about

his findings, didn't you?



I'm not sure where you're going with this, Dev. If you can discern what
his findings actually were, then mister you're a better man than I.


So what exactly has he done wrong--besides

not kiss your arse?



Dev, you claim to be a writer--you should know what bad writing is.
Also, if you think or have ever thought that I would conduct any aspect
without the utmost of integrity than you are unbelievably full of ****e.
I have *never* spammed this group, shilled for anything, or anything
like that.


You were quiet when dave was positive or neutral

in his comments, but as soon as he moved on to talk about your
speakers in the context of his impressions of other speakers, your
mood soured.



That's not accurate. I waited till I thought his review was finished,
and stated what I thought, just as I originally said I was going to. My
position on this is beyond reproach, and yet, in true RAO fashion, some
viper comes slithering out of the woodwork with something erroneous to say.


I mean, you actually complained to him that he wasn't focusing enough
on the Europa's strengths.



Bad writing. Audio reviews are full of it (no pun intended).


Whose review was this, again?



I'm a very critical listener, Dev, and these are very good speakers.
dave did a poor, almost nonexistent job of communicating this fact.


Are you going to have a petulant fit of control-freakery each time a
reviewer describes your speakers in language you dislike or wish to
outlaw from 'legitimate'* audio discussions? For example, it has
become apparent that the Europas lack the bass extension and power
necessary to convey the energy of a rock performance. dave used the
age old euphemism 'lean' to describe the bass aspect of your
speakers--which as we all know really means that bass extension is
lacking (which is not to say that what's available isn't good--or even
the best). You have yourself said the bass drops off 'like a stone'
below 50Hz. So why bitch about him saying the bass is lean, if that is
his impression of it and dave knows how audiophiles will interpret
that comment?



Maybe you weren't following along, drunk or whatever--in dave's mind,
"lean bass" isn't a pejorative term, except that in every other piece of
audio writing since the advent of audio it is. The bass of the Europa
withing its operating range is *very* taut and powerful.


I mean really, Greg. You've totally ****ed yourself over this whole
thing.



No, Dev. This is how RAO works: some guys are designated to get dumped
on. Even as vile as Krueger is, he doesn't deserve to be told he ****ed
his dead kid. I don't deserve to be called "Mommy****er" by that sick
******* Middius, either. It's high time for a spade to be called a
spade, and for people like you, Middius, and weil to be told clearly and
succinctly when they are full of ****, and believe me, you are really,
really full of **** on this one. You guys live in a plasticene world
where you think it's foul to be told a discouraging word--the truth.
Sorry, but that isn't going to happen anymore.


You have cast yourself in a dreadful light. I don't think

anyone who has followed this would want to buy speakers from you, not
least because you have shown what a revolting **** of an individual
you become when someone disagrees with you.



I can't believe you have the nerve to say something this wrong--or can
I? If you can ask a guy if he ****ed his dead kid you're pretty much
capable of saying anything, right? What's the matter, Dev, credibility
down the toilet? Damn, I'm all torn up about that. What's with you
guys with rotting brains and incest, anyway? That's not a rhetorical
question, I really want an answer.


How will you react when a reviewer says the Europas are not actually
as good as speakers that cost ten times as much.



Are you an idiot, Dev? Have you never seen a manufacturer react
adversely to a professional reviewers opinion? Oh, and lest we forget,
dave's attempt at reviewing was as far from professional as humanly
possible. You can go **** a family member if you don't like what I'm
saying, of course. Get it through your thick skull: there is no more
chosen few around here anymore. Middius had his chance with his Gene
Roddenberry references, I seriously doubt those are of interest to
anyone anymore. You guys can try and institute a hierarchy of incest
references if you want, I'll still make mincemeat out of all of you.


Or maybe half as

much? What about if a reviewer should say that your speakers aren't
actually as extraordinary as you, their loving father, thinks they
are?



Complete the lie, Dev: do you find dave weil more credible on an audio
matter than me?


You'll fail at this, Greg. I think everyone sees it except you. You
should buy some cakes (English scones, perhaps). At least get some
satisfaction out of your money while it lasts.



Perhaps I will fail. There are plenty of assholes in the world, if this
group is any indication. At least I have the backbone to make an
attempt.


"At least I have the backbone to make an attempt..."

This guy is totally insane he should be urgently directed to a
psychiatric hospital. TOO MUCH !

On Mon, 06 Oct 2003 16:15:13 GMT, trotsky wrote:

That's not accurate. I waited till I thought his review was finished,
and stated what I thought, just as I originally said I was going to. My
position on this is beyond reproach,

Sure it is. If you thought the review was finished, you either weren't
paying attention *or* you were an idiot. Which is it?

Oh wait, here's another possibility, you didn't get to the part where
I said, "Well, this has gone on long enough. I'll try to listen to
some classical later in the day and get back to everyone". |And even
if you had, maybe you forgot that I was going to do direct comparisons
with the Klipsches and Allisons and I was going to bring in a
wonderful sounding tube amp as well.

My guess? You saw part three and decided that was it. I think it seems
pretty clear that, in the end, I wsn't holding to a strict numbering
scheme. maybe this ****es you off - I thought I was doing the right
thing by keeping the segments digestable. I guess I was wrong.

I guess my other big sin was trying to be as comprehensive as
possible, using as wide a variety of music as possible and spending
more than just a few minutes listening to the speakers.

Or maybe, my big sin was not buying your claims hook, line or sinker.

Frankly, if you think this is about the most neutral speaker you've
ever heard, it cast doubts on the speakers that you *have* been
listening to (and this has nothing to do with the "bass issue"
either). Of maybe you haven't bothered to listen to anything other
than jazz or classical either. Because, if you had, you'd realize that
this speaker is somewhat colored in the upper bass/lower midrange,
especially at volume about 95 dB. Still, in blance, it's a nice
sounding speaker - as I continually pointed out throughout the review.

dave weil wrote:
On Mon, 06 Oct 2003 09:50:09 GMT, trotsky wrote:


Not really. I don't see multiple interpretations of "I already had the
logos done before the website..."--do you?


When coupled with the phrase "I could've demanded that the logo from
the speaker be used on the site", yes I do.



You're head's full of swiss cheese, dave.

On Mon, 06 Oct 2003 16:39:42 GMT, trotsky wrote:



dave weil wrote:
On Mon, 06 Oct 2003 09:50:09 GMT, trotsky wrote:


Not really. I don't see multiple interpretations of "I already had the
logos done before the website..."--do you?


When coupled with the phrase "I could've demanded that the logo from
the speaker be used on the site", yes I do.



You're head's full of swiss cheese, dave.

In English please.

dave weil wrote:


Frankly, if you think this is about the most neutral speaker you've
ever heard, it cast doubts on the speakers that you *have* been
listening to (and this has nothing to do with the "bass issue"
either).


It doesn't? Are you pretending your "I've taken acid till it's coming
out my ears" definition of the word "neutral" in an audio context never
happened?


Of maybe you haven't bothered to listen to anything other
than jazz or classical either. Because, if you had, you'd realize that
this speaker is somewhat colored in the upper bass/lower midrange,
especially at volume about 95 dB. Still, in blance, it's a nice
sounding speaker - as I continually pointed out throughout the review.


"One dimentional" (sic) is not nice, dave. "Lean bass" isn't nice,
either, even if you mean it "in the best possible way." Not knowing
what "neutral" means doesn't help either. In fact, at some point I just
realized nothing worthwhile is being communicated. You are free to like
or dislike the speaker, I NEVER said anything about that. But, if you
are so high on life that you can't communicate what it is you actually
heard, then the whole thing is just a waste of my time. I freely admit
that I made a mistake by overestimating your potential to evaluate an
audio product. I can live with that. I can't live with the lies about
your egesting a pile of turds and calling it a coherent statement. I
also really, really hold it against you that you can dish it out but you
can't take it. You claimed you expected a rebuttal from me and then
****ed all over it when I provided one. You guys have been deplorable
about this. But I should be happy, right? At least you're not calling
me "Mommy****er", right dave? Why don't you tell Middius what a piece
of **** he is first, and then you can get to my alleged transgressions.
Unless, of course, being fair in your criticisms was never what you
were after in the first place.

trotsky wrote:


dave weil wrote:


Frankly, if you think this is about the most neutral speaker you've
ever heard, it cast doubts on the speakers that you *have* been
listening to (and this has nothing to do with the "bass issue"
either).



It doesn't? Are you pretending your "I've taken acid till it's coming
out my ears" definition of the word "neutral" in an audio context never
happened?


Of maybe you haven't bothered to listen to anything other

than jazz or classical either. Because, if you had, you'd realize that
this speaker is somewhat colored in the upper bass/lower midrange,
especially at volume about 95 dB. Still, in blance, it's a nice
sounding speaker - as I continually pointed out throughout the review.



"One dimentional" (sic) is not nice, dave. "Lean bass" isn't nice,
either, even if you mean it "in the best possible way." Not knowing
what "neutral" means doesn't help either. In fact, at some point I just
realized nothing worthwhile is being communicated. You are free to like
or dislike the speaker, I NEVER said anything about that. But, if you
are so high on life that you can't communicate what it is you actually
heard, then the whole thing is just a waste of my time. I freely admit
that I made a mistake by overestimating your potential to evaluate an
audio product. I can live with that. I can't live with the lies about
your egesting a pile of turds and calling it a coherent statement. I
also really, really hold it against you that you can dish it out but you
can't take it. You claimed you expected a rebuttal from me and then
****ed all over it when I provided one. You guys have been deplorable
about this. But I should be happy, right? At least you're not calling
me "Mommy****er", right dave? Why don't you tell Middius what a piece
of **** he is first, and then you can get to my alleged transgressions.
Unless, of course, being fair in your criticisms was never what you
were after in the first place.


Trotsky, you are a loser. Do you hear me ?
*LOSER* :
# noun: a person with a record of failing; someone who loses consistently.

The strange thing with authentic losers like you it's that they cannot
accept to lose decently, quietly in one word *alone*.
We acknowledge here that Dave has been a little bit too naive but you
are not obliged to try to drown him in Jupiter-Audio's naufrage.

trotsky wrote:

Whose review was this, again?

I'm a very critical listener, Dev, and these are very good speakers.
dave did a poor, almost nonexistent job of communicating this fact.

LMAO. What a rube you are, Greg.

"These are very good speakers. The reviewer did a poor job of communicating
this fact"

LOL. You honhestly have to idea how anal, ivory tower condescending
and biased you sounded there, did you? I love the term nonexistant.
That should tell you how much your ego is coloring your perceptions.

Fact: You only want reviews that are 100% positive to use as ad copy.

Greg:
They are very good speakers. That's a fact. I cannot be wrong.

Reviewer:
They are okay speakers.

Greg:
WTF? You are WRONG. How can you not think they are the best thing
ever?

On Mon, 06 Oct 2003 16:52:00 GMT, trotsky wrote:



dave weil wrote:


Frankly, if you think this is about the most neutral speaker you've
ever heard, it cast doubts on the speakers that you *have* been
listening to (and this has nothing to do with the "bass issue"
either).


It doesn't? Are you pretending your "I've taken acid till it's coming
out my ears" definition of the word "neutral" in an audio context never
happened?

No I'm not. I'm also not pretending that it's the only issue involved
in neutrality.

Of maybe you haven't bothered to listen to anything other
than jazz or classical either. Because, if you had, you'd realize that
this speaker is somewhat colored in the upper bass/lower midrange,
especially at volume about 95 dB. Still, in blance, it's a nice
sounding speaker - as I continually pointed out throughout the review.


"One dimentional" (sic) is not nice, dave.

Please put this comment in context. I don't think I ever declared the
speaker to be one diment/sional.

"Lean bass" isn't nice, either, even if you mean it "in the best possible way."

It's far preferable to bloated bass, that's for sure. However, when it
comes to rock music, I'd prefer not to have to spend another $1500 to
get the bass necessary tomake it sound even remotely "life-like", Of
course, you might never have seen a real live rock concert, although I
know this not to be true, so I have to wonder if you were paying
attention.

Not knowing what "neutral" means doesn't help either.

I know what "neutral" means to me.

In fact, at some point I just realized nothing worthwhile is being communicated.

shrug

It's about as "worthwhile" as the designer delcaring "The Europa has a
zippy, dynamic quality that speakers costing ten times as much often
can't equal. It also has a neutrality from top to bottom that is
exceptional". It's just self-serving palaver taken on its own.

You are free to like
or dislike the speaker, I NEVER said anything about that. But, if you
are so high on life that you can't communicate what it is you actually
heard, then the whole thing is just a waste of my time. I freely admit
that I made a mistake by overestimating your potential to evaluate an
audio product. I can live with that. I can't live with the lies about
your egesting a pile of turds and calling it a coherent statement. I
also really, really hold it against you that you can dish it out but you
can't take it.

Now *this* is choice, coming from you.

You claimed you expected a rebuttal from me and then
****ed all over it when I provided one. You guys have been deplorable
about this. But I should be happy, right? At least you're not calling
me "Mommy****er", right dave? Why don't you tell Middius what a piece
of **** he is first, and then you can get to my alleged transgressions.
Unless, of course, being fair in your criticisms was never what you
were after in the first place.

Oh yes, this is the reason I wasted a bunch of my time. I've got
nothing better to do than to trap you and make you waste moeny sending
me speakers to listen to. Right.

BTW, I love the way you are promoting your speakers on the internet.
I'm sure that your input on RAO is going to really pay off in real
sales.

The Devil wrote:

What was wrong with dave's review?

It would be easier to ask what was right with it. I do find it curious,
though, that I've written several notes on the subject and you would
still ask this question.

I would have thought the reason was obvious. I don't understand what
was wrong with his review--besides his unfortunate unwillingness to
blow kisses all over your product, of course.

You asked the man to do you a favour. He agreed. He gets the speakers
and obviously sets aside quite a bit of his own time to give them an
exhaustive appraisal. At first, when dave seems positive, you are
quietly pleasant and cooing away like a fat little hen with a
screwdriver and popadom. But as soon as dave hits the nitty-gritty
issues, you wail and cry foul--you're not supposed to say that! That's
being negative! My speakers are mother****ing excellent in every
mother****ing aspect of performance imaginable, you dumb *******! You
couldn't hear your way out of a paper bag, you stupid ****ing
drug-addled junkie hillbilly! You then insult the intelligence of
everyone here with a dishonest, rambling, poisonous litany of reasons
why dave was never actually qualified to judge your speakers anyway.
What a piece of crap you are.

Let's face it: All this happened because dave dared to share an honest
impression of your speakers, an impression that obviously disagreed
with your own, much superior impression.

Spoilt ****ing brat, you are, Greg.

I don't need to read the rest of your post. I can imagine what comes
next, and I don't have the time.

In conclusion, may I join dave in wishing you the success that you
deserve.

But I will say it: You deserve to fail, and fail you will. Anyone who
buys speaker kits from Madisound and sells them as their own design is
destined to fail. You haven't got the first idea what you're doing.
You know it, I know it, and I suspect everyone else here knows it too.

--
td

trotsky wrote:
Langis wrote:

trotsky wrote:


I think it would better if you used the Jupiter graphic logo (from
your site) on the front. You presumably put a serial plate on the
back
- the full name, db ratings etc, could go there.

That's a valid point--except that I already had the logos done before
the website was made. I could've demanded that the logo from the
speaker be used on the site, but since I've never done this kind of
thing before I didn't want to sound ****y. (I know--when did that
ever
stop me before.) At some point in time when I get some cash flow
going
I'll probably have the site redesigned more in keeping with what I
think
is best.

Dave is right - I meant it would look better if you used the logo from
your site (which does look like a professional job) on the speakers. I
don't think it's a trivial point either, this is about perception of
your product - a critical matter.


Well, I disagree on all counts. First of all, I already knew what you
were trying to say, so the only thing dave was right about was restating
the obvious.


I think "I could've demanded that the logo from the speaker be used on
the site" had us both confused. It's the direct opposite of what I
said.




As I told dave, I think there's only one way to interpret "I already had
the logos done before the website..."





Second, I had already spent over three hundred bucks on
nameplates, and was hardly going to get new ones made at this juncture.
It's not unusual for a company to redesign their logos as time passes,
of course. But the most important point is that I don't even agree with
you about the look of the logo: my logo that's currently on the speakers
is in keeping with the straight lines and no-nonsense look of the
speaker. And it looks quite good in the flesh, despite dave's cheap
shot to the contrary.


OK, you disagree. I maintain that the logo from your website could
look far more professional on the speakers than the nameplates, to the
degree that it could influence potential customers perception of the
product.




I think you're putting too much stock in the look. It's all about the
buzz that's created on the internet--I just have to get some customers
testimonials and/or reviews. So far everybody I've talked to about
reviews has had a "don't call us, we'll call you" attitude, but reviews
are actually the less desirable of the two.


One thing you could do without further expense is relocate the plates.
They look a bit weird being so close to the bottom IMO. Perhaps you
could stick 'em round the back? ;-)



I'll take that under consideration.


I also think the photographs on your site don't do the business
justice. They are very professionally done, no question about that -
but the trumpet and vase of flowers are *really* corny. It's a
perception issue again, but these photos do not spell out (to me)
'innovation'. If I was in your shoes I would consider using more
unusual angles, a blurred or obscured background (rather than obvious
backdrop), or better yet beg the use of a cutting edge designer home
for a real world setting, as you might see in the glossies.


I don't doubt there is room for improvement, but whose going to do the
improving? I don't have the time or money to shop around for multiple
photographers and multiple web designers--


Weird answer. If the photographer *insists* on photographing the
speakers like a bowl of fruit, it's a false economy not to find
another. You ask for what you want and they do it.. right?



Perhaps you can provide a link to a photo or photos that you think are
better.


I'm actually quite please what
has transpired considering this is the first time I've ever done
anything like this. Also, I'd like to know what you're basis for
comparison is: most sites from guys flying solo like myself (Ellis, for
example) look like a trained ape made them compared to mine.


I believe I already praised you for your first efforts.

My basis for comparison would be any impressive or professional
looking site.




Which is certainly valid, but as far as audio is concerned, I'm already
well ahead of the curve. Granted there's always room for improvement.
All it takes is cash.


As for the serial plate on the back, I do have a very nice gold
embossed
sticker that is exactly as you describe it. In hindsight that
should've
showed up on the site--it's just another point that adds
credibility to
the operation.


Agree with that.



Dealing with website developers and "professional"
photographers has been a little more squirrelly than I was expecting.


Curious. How were they difficult?


That's not really a suitable subject for the newsgroup. I can tell you
about it privately if you'd like.


Yes, do.


I'm already sick of people nitpicking
and whining about efforts that I've made that are far beyond anything
they will have the guts to do in their entire lives.


"people" in this case obviously refers to me,




No, I didn't mean that--I meant the usual suspects: Krueger, Morion,
ScottW, McKelvy, Oberlander, and, unfortunately, dave weil at this
juncture.


yet your snide remark is
unfounded - I have had the guts to market a commercial product before,
and I learned a lot in doing so. I'm sorry for you if you think I'm
nitpicking - I've been impressed with what you have done so far and my
comments are constructive.




The only beef I have with you, PD, is that you didn't apply the same
scrutiny to weil's attempt at a review as you did with my efforts. In
fact, I think you totally gave him a free pass, which is unfair. Beyond
that, I really do welcome feedback that I deem to be credible, which
yours certainly is.


Kamikaze ? ;-)

Joseph Oberlander wrote:
trotsky wrote:

Whose review was this, again?


I'm a very critical listener, Dev, and these are very good speakers.
dave did a poor, almost nonexistent job of communicating this fact.


LMAO. What a rube you are, Greg.

"These are very good speakers. The reviewer did a poor job of communicating
this fact"

LOL. You honhestly have to idea how anal, ivory tower condescending
and biased you sounded there, did you?


Joe, you own JBL. Sound quality is something you have yet to prove you
understand.

The Devil wrote:

The Devil wrote:


What was wrong with dave's review?


It would be easier to ask what was right with it. I do find it curious,
though, that I've written several notes on the subject and you would
still ask this question.


I would have thought the reason was obvious. I don't understand what
was wrong with his review--besides his unfortunate unwillingness to
blow kisses all over your product, of course.

You asked the man to do you a favour. He agreed. He gets the speakers
and obviously sets aside quite a bit of his own time to give them an
exhaustive appraisal. At first, when dave seems positive, you are
quietly pleasant and cooing away like a fat little hen with a
screwdriver and popadom. But as soon as dave hits the nitty-gritty
issues, you wail and cry foul--you're not supposed to say that! That's
being negative! My speakers are mother****ing excellent in every
mother****ing aspect of performance imaginable, you dumb *******! You
couldn't hear your way out of a paper bag, you stupid ****ing
drug-addled junkie hillbilly! You then insult the intelligence of
everyone here with a dishonest, rambling, poisonous litany of reasons
why dave was never actually qualified to judge your speakers anyway.
What a piece of crap you are.

Let's face it: All this happened because dave dared to share an honest
impression of your speakers, an impression that obviously disagreed
with your own, much superior impression.

Spoilt ****ing brat, you are, Greg.

I don't need to read the rest of your post. I can imagine what comes
next, and I don't have the time.

In conclusion, may I join dave in wishing you the success that you
deserve.

But I will say it: You deserve to fail, and fail you will. Anyone who
buys speaker kits from Madisound and sells them as their own design is
destined to fail. You haven't got the first idea what you're doing.
You know it, I know it, and I suspect everyone else here knows it too.

--
td

The Devil wrote:

The Devil wrote:


What was wrong with dave's review?


It would be easier to ask what was right with it. I do find it curious,
though, that I've written several notes on the subject and you would
still ask this question.


I would have thought the reason was obvious. I don't understand what
was wrong with his review--besides his unfortunate unwillingness to
blow kisses all over your product, of course.

You asked the man to do you a favour. He agreed. He gets the speakers
and obviously sets aside quite a bit of his own time to give them an
exhaustive appraisal. At first, when dave seems positive, you are
quietly pleasant and cooing away like a fat little hen with a
screwdriver and popadom. But as soon as dave hits the nitty-gritty
issues, you wail and cry foul--you're not supposed to say that! That's
being negative! My speakers are mother****ing excellent in every
mother****ing aspect of performance imaginable, you dumb *******! You
couldn't hear your way out of a paper bag, you stupid ****ing
drug-addled junkie hillbilly! You then insult the intelligence of
everyone here with a dishonest, rambling, poisonous litany of reasons
why dave was never actually qualified to judge your speakers anyway.
What a piece of crap you are.

Let's face it: All this happened because dave dared to share an honest
impression of your speakers, an impression that obviously disagreed
with your own, much superior impression.

Spoilt ****ing brat, you are, Greg.

I don't need to read the rest of your post. I can imagine what comes
next, and I don't have the time.

In conclusion, may I join dave in wishing you the success that you
deserve.

But I will say it: You deserve to fail, and fail you will. Anyone who
buys speaker kits from Madisound and sells them as their own design is
destined to fail. You haven't got the first idea what you're doing.
You know it, I know it, and I suspect everyone else here knows it too.

--
td

Is Jupiter-Audio a Madisound's subsidiary ? ;-)

dave weil wrote:
On Mon, 06 Oct 2003 16:52:00 GMT, trotsky wrote:



dave weil wrote:



Frankly, if you think this is about the most neutral speaker you've
ever heard, it cast doubts on the speakers that you *have* been
listening to (and this has nothing to do with the "bass issue"
either).


It doesn't? Are you pretending your "I've taken acid till it's coming
out my ears" definition of the word "neutral" in an audio context never
happened?


No I'm not. I'm also not pretending that it's the only issue involved
in neutrality.


What are you pretending, then?


Of maybe you haven't bothered to listen to anything other

than jazz or classical either. Because, if you had, you'd realize that
this speaker is somewhat colored in the upper bass/lower midrange,
especially at volume about 95 dB. Still, in blance, it's a nice
sounding speaker - as I continually pointed out throughout the review.


"One dimentional" (sic) is not nice, dave.


Please put this comment in context. I don't think I ever declared the
speaker to be one diment/sional.


Okay:

For contrast, I played the late 70s Boston group Robin Lane and the
Chartbusters. I put on the second album, Imitation Life, which has a
sort of "wall of sound", fairly compressed sound to it. On the
Klipsches, the sound is large and pretty powerful, but one
dimentional. On the Europas, they're just one dimensional.




"Lean bass" isn't nice, either, even if you mean it "in the best possible way."


It's far preferable to bloated bass, that's for sure. However, when it
comes to rock music, I'd prefer not to have to spend another $1500 to
get the bass necessary tomake it sound even remotely "life-like", Of
course, you might never have seen a real live rock concert, although I
know this not to be true, so I have to wonder if you were paying
attention.


But all you're really saying is that a sound that is more full range to
you is preferable to sonic accuracy. In fact, issues of clarity and
neutrality never even enter this statement, as if you are saying a pair
of stage monitors is as good as it gets, which is just bull****
regardless of the kind of music you're listening to.


Not knowing what "neutral" means doesn't help either.


I know what "neutral" means to me.


And that's supposed to mean what to the rest of humanity?


In fact, at some point I just realized nothing worthwhile is being communicated.


shrug

It's about as "worthwhile" as the designer delcaring "The Europa has a
zippy, dynamic quality that speakers costing ten times as much often
can't equal. It also has a neutrality from top to bottom that is
exceptional". It's just self-serving palaver taken on its own.


Except it's all true.


You are free to like
or dislike the speaker, I NEVER said anything about that. But, if you
are so high on life that you can't communicate what it is you actually
heard, then the whole thing is just a waste of my time. I freely admit
that I made a mistake by overestimating your potential to evaluate an
audio product. I can live with that. I can't live with the lies about
your egesting a pile of turds and calling it a coherent statement. I
also really, really hold it against you that you can dish it out but you
can't take it.


Now *this* is choice, coming from you.


I have no idea what you are trying to say here, but that's becoming a
running theme. I'm guessing the rest of the peanut gallery can't
interpret it either.



You claimed you expected a rebuttal from me and then
****ed all over it when I provided one. You guys have been deplorable
about this. But I should be happy, right? At least you're not calling
me "Mommy****er", right dave? Why don't you tell Middius what a piece
of **** he is first, and then you can get to my alleged transgressions.
Unless, of course, being fair in your criticisms was never what you
were after in the first place.


Oh yes, this is the reason I wasted a bunch of my time. I've got
nothing better to do than to trap you and make you waste moeny sending
me speakers to listen to. Right.

BTW, I love the way you are promoting your speakers on the internet.
I'm sure that your input on RAO is going to really pay off in real
sales.


Thanks. I guess I'm still the litmus test that gets to show how far you
can stray from your own personal ideals. You're just another jack-off
walking around thinking that you're wishing people well, but instead
you're the living embodiment of "Positively 4th Street". Kudos.

The Devil wrote:
The Devil wrote:


What was wrong with dave's review?


It would be easier to ask what was right with it. I do find it curious,
though, that I've written several notes on the subject and you would
still ask this question.


I would have thought the reason was obvious. I don't understand what
was wrong with his review--besides his unfortunate unwillingness to
blow kisses all over your product, of course.

You asked the man to do you a favour.


Stick a fork in yourself, Dev, you're done. You don't get to comment on
my business unless you can grow some ******** and leave the realm of the
anonymice. You want to talk about my speakers? Fine, quid pro quo:
I'll give you the same offer I gave Bob Morion--let's talk about your
writing as a counter. Assuming you even are a writer. Then again, we
could talk about your family--assuming you have one. You and George
play the same bull**** game from the same bull**** position of
anonymity. It's hard to believe, but even Krueger isn't this cowardly.
He's just as much of a dick, of course, but at least he's not a coward
with respect to his identity. Not so "Devil" or whatever his actual
name is. You just sit around and wait for some guy like myself with a
real identity and real personal information to swoop down upon and dump
some hateful and hate-filled remarks. Naturally, for convenience, facts
don't even enter into these remarks, as we can see on this thread. But
I'll tell you what, if you want to discuss something from your position
of anonymity, I'll throw you a bone: you can discuss why assholes like
yourself and George gravitate toward those incestual comments. Come on,
you're not afraid to discuss things all of a sudden, are you?

trotsky wrote:


*STOP* now bloody ******* ! *STOP* !
You will never be able to sell your ****ing tins ok, so your story
hasn't anymore interest for anybody here.
You are a loser, you lose so you should be happy now...

LOL

trotsky wrote:



The Devil wrote:

The Devil wrote:



What was wrong with dave's review?



It would be easier to ask what was right with it. I do find it
curious, though, that I've written several notes on the subject and
you would still ask this question.



I would have thought the reason was obvious. I don't understand what
was wrong with his review--besides his unfortunate unwillingness to
blow kisses all over your product, of course.

You asked the man to do you a favour.



Stick a fork in yourself, Dev, you're done. You don't get to comment on
my business unless you can grow some ******** and leave the realm of the
anonymice. You want to talk about my speakers? Fine, quid pro quo:
I'll give you the same offer I gave Bob Morion--let's talk about your
writing as a counter. Assuming you even are a writer. Then again, we
could talk about your family--assuming you have one. You and George
play the same bull**** game from the same bull**** position of
anonymity. It's hard to believe, but even Krueger isn't this cowardly.
He's just as much of a dick, of course, but at least he's not a coward
with respect to his identity. Not so "Devil" or whatever his actual
name is. You just sit around and wait for some guy like myself with a
real identity and real personal information to swoop down upon and dump
some hateful and hate-filled remarks. Naturally, for convenience, facts
don't even enter into these remarks, as we can see on this thread. But
I'll tell you what, if you want to discuss something from your position
of anonymity, I'll throw you a bone: you can discuss why assholes like
yourself and George gravitate toward those incestual comments. Come on,
you're not afraid to discuss things all of a sudden, are you?


This is a typical loser's reaction.
He exhibits his poor life, his total defeat, his bull**** attempts to be
a real human being... But as soon as you confirm him he is really what
he shows to the world he cries like a baby in a succession of revolt and
depression.

On Mon, 06 Oct 2003 18:49:56 GMT, trotsky wrote:



dave weil wrote:
On Mon, 06 Oct 2003 16:52:00 GMT, trotsky wrote:



dave weil wrote:



Frankly, if you think this is about the most neutral speaker you've
ever heard, it cast doubts on the speakers that you *have* been
listening to (and this has nothing to do with the "bass issue"
either).


It doesn't? Are you pretending your "I've taken acid till it's coming
out my ears" definition of the word "neutral" in an audio context never
happened?


No I'm not. I'm also not pretending that it's the only issue involved
in neutrality.


What are you pretending, then?

I wasn't pretending anything. I was pointing out that I was talking
about the bass issue. Since I've only brought up one other observation
that relates to this, then obviously it refers to *that* issue and
that's the issue of the "congestion" that I found in certain
programming. I also took pains to note that this didn't occur in all
forms of music, nor in all forms of rock either.

Of maybe you haven't bothered to listen to anything other

than jazz or classical either. Because, if you had, you'd realize that
this speaker is somewhat colored in the upper bass/lower midrange,
especially at volume about 95 dB. Still, in blance, it's a nice
sounding speaker - as I continually pointed out throughout the review.


"One dimentional" (sic) is not nice, dave.


Please put this comment in context. I don't think I ever declared the
speaker to be one diment/sional.


Okay:

For contrast, I played the late 70s Boston group Robin Lane and the
Chartbusters. I put on the second album, Imitation Life, which has a
sort of "wall of sound", fairly compressed sound to it. On the
Klipsches, the sound is large and pretty powerful, but one
dimentional. On the Europas, they're just one dimensional.

Right. This shows that the program material is one-dimensional, not
the speaker. The speaker *does not* have the authority to provide a
powerful bass to accompany that particular music, and that music
*needs* the underpinning of said bass.

"Lean bass" isn't nice, either, even if you mean it "in the best possible way."


It's far preferable to bloated bass, that's for sure. However, when it
comes to rock music, I'd prefer not to have to spend another $1500 to
get the bass necessary to make it sound even remotely "life-like", Of
course, you might never have seen a real live rock concert, although I
know this not to be true, so I have to wonder if you were paying
attention.


But all you're really saying is that a sound that is more full range to
you is preferable to sonic accuracy.

No, not necessarily. I pointed out numerous aspects of your speakers
that were worthy of complimentary comments. I also pointed out areas
that I thought that they *weren't* "accurate". If you wanted a typical
no negatives magazine review, which you seem to be desirous of, you
obviously came to the wrong place. I made sure that you understood
from the beginning that I was going to call it as I see it. The fact
that you disagree doesn't surprise me - just the manner in which you
did it.

In fact, issues of clarity and
neutrality never even enter this statement, as if you are saying a pair
of stage monitors is as good as it gets, which is just bull****
regardless of the kind of music you're listening to.

Of course it doesn't enter this statement. "Clarity" and "neutrality"
don't really enter into the equation when it comes to this particular
recording. That would be like trying to decide how "clearly" a record
protrays a Phil Spector record. It's an exercise in futility. That's
why I didn't bother. That *is* why I chose other types of rock music
to explore those issues - things like Bryan Ferry, Kate Bush, Spike,
by Elvis Costello and other things that I hadn't had the chance to
comment on yet, like Atom Heart Mother (Mofi), Heart's Dog and
Butterfly, and the like.

Not knowing what "neutral" means doesn't help either.


I know what "neutral" means to me.


And that's supposed to mean what to the rest of humanity?

Hopefully, they'll get a measure of what it means to me after reading
the entire set of reviews and maybe they can figure it out on their
own.

In fact, at some point I just realized nothing worthwhile is being communicated.


shrug

It's about as "worthwhile" as the designer delcaring "The Europa has a
zippy, dynamic quality that speakers costing ten times as much often
can't equal. It also has a neutrality from top to bottom that is
exceptional". It's just self-serving palaver taken on its own.


Except it's all true.

No it's not. And that's a fact. Maybe you can find a dopey sounding
speaker that costs 10 times as much to serve your argument, but
someone might also find a speaker that costs half as much that can say
the same thing about *your* speaker vis a vis that speaker. Your
hyperbolizing doesn't serve you well when you're trying to proclaim
how *different* you are from everyone else. Saying that your speaker
is 1000 better than the Cornwall is just another example. I'mnot even
sure you've even heard that speaker.

You are free to like
or dislike the speaker, I NEVER said anything about that. But, if you
are so high on life that you can't communicate what it is you actually
heard, then the whole thing is just a waste of my time. I freely admit
that I made a mistake by overestimating your potential to evaluate an
audio product. I can live with that. I can't live with the lies about
your egesting a pile of turds and calling it a coherent statement. I
also really, really hold it against you that you can dish it out but you
can't take it.


Now *this* is choice, coming from you.


I have no idea what you are trying to say here, but that's becoming a
running theme. I'm guessing the rest of the peanut gallery can't
interpret it either.

It means that you can dish it out but you can't take it. I'm sure that
most people agree with me. But that's part of your puersecution
complex - everyone's wrong and they're picking on you. This is the
virtual equivalent of a health club locker room.

You claimed you expected a rebuttal from me and then
****ed all over it when I provided one. You guys have been deplorable
about this. But I should be happy, right? At least you're not calling
me "Mommy****er", right dave? Why don't you tell Middius what a piece
of **** he is first, and then you can get to my alleged transgressions.
Unless, of course, being fair in your criticisms was never what you
were after in the first place.


Oh yes, this is the reason I wasted a bunch of my time. I've got
nothing better to do than to trap you and make you waste moeny sending
me speakers to listen to. Right.

BTW, I love the way you are promoting your speakers on the internet.
I'm sure that your input on RAO is going to really pay off in real
sales.


Thanks. I guess I'm still the litmus test that gets to show how far you
can stray from your own personal ideals. You're just another jack-off
walking around thinking that you're wishing people well, but instead
you're the living embodiment of "Positively 4th Street". Kudos.

Aren't you being an asshole by not attribution this quote? Isn't that
the Trotsky Gold Standard?

On Sun, 05 Oct 2003 12:39:14 GMT, trotsky wrote
the following:



George M. Middius wrote:

"Your speakers are a ripoff." Perhaps you thought that was a
compliment.


My speakers are an exceptionally good value, which should be obvious
to
anyone that hears them. Borgs tend not to worry about such things.



Greg, I was wondering if these are the specific model numbers and
types of speakers and/or componentry that the Europa's are made of?

W20RC-38-08 (8 inch Woofer) 26.60 (X2)
YAG-20 8 ohms 3 kHz -20 kHz 90 2.5"x6.12" 3.5"x6.62 27.50 (X2)
(www.madisound.com)

Cabinets 3/4 MDF (~ $35.00 a sheet) X2 for mistakes and such.
(various Lowe's, Wolohan or Home Depot stores throughout the U.S.)

Crossover network -- Unknown

Binding Post --$8.10 (www.madisound.com)

Veneer -- (That's coupled into the cost of the MDF -- after all that's
one of the ways it's sold - prelaminated, you can get it unlaminated,
but why bother with the hassle of cutting laminate and gluing it on)

All that together comes up to $194.40 (not counting the crossover)

Given that I don't know whether or not you self laminate, or the cost
of the crossover, my figures are not quite accurate. However taking
into account the average across the board, I'd give that the crossover
probably runs around $25.00 and if you self laminate, well, that could
cost a couple hundred.

Totals up to around 420.00 for a pair. That leaves a nice $930.00 for
labor and profit margin. From that standpoint, no they don't seem like
an exceptionally good value. But then of course, I haven't heard them.
(and that's what really matters).

Music -- a discordance of noise pleasing to at least one aural
receptor in the mass.....

Mike.

On Mon, 06 Oct 2003 20:43:06 GMT, Guilty Bystander
wrote:

Binding Post --$8.10 (www.madisound.com)

That does *not* appear to be the same binding post module (TD-CUP).
The one pictured on the web site has some additional brass that
doesn't seem present on the Europa. Maybe thy've redesigned it or
there are several variations though.

Also, I need to point out that Greg didn't bother to send the bridging
straps with the speaker. I used my own Hovland straps.

dave weil wrote:
On Mon, 06 Oct 2003 20:43:06 GMT, Guilty Bystander
wrote:


Binding Post --$8.10 (www.madisound.com)


That does *not* appear to be the same binding post module (TD-CUP).
The one pictured on the web site has some additional brass that
doesn't seem present on the Europa. Maybe thy've redesigned it or
there are several variations though.

Also, I need to point out that Greg didn't bother to send the bridging
straps with the speaker. I used my own Hovland straps.

He thought that you will use double amplification !
)

dave weil said:

BTW, I love the way you are promoting your speakers on the internet.
I'm sure that your input on RAO is going to really pay off in real
sales.

Personally, I'm waiting for the receiver's liquidation.

trotsky said:

You and George play the same bull**** game from the same bull**** position of anonymity.

The old sockpuppet paranoia is really electrifying your undercarriage.
You've now joined an elite group of paranoid whack-jobs that includes
Krooger, McInturd, and The Thing.

Well done, I must say. Give us a wave from the loony bin from time to
time.

trotsky wrote:



Joseph Oberlander wrote:

trotsky wrote:

Whose review was this, again?



I'm a very critical listener, Dev, and these are very good speakers.
dave did a poor, almost nonexistent job of communicating this fact.



LMAO. What a rube you are, Greg.

"These are very good speakers. The reviewer did a poor job of
communicating
this fact"

LOL. You honhestly have to idea how anal, ivory tower condescending
and biased you sounded there, did you?



Joe, you own JBL. Sound quality is something you have yet to prove you
understand.


And after all these years, you still can't tell the difference between
JLB's consumer crap and their studio monitors.

Lionel wrote:


Is Jupiter-Audio a Madisound's subsidiary ? ;-)


Based upon the parts and design, yes. The funny thing is, they sell
a BETTER design for $455 on their own site.

Guilty Bystander wrote:


Greg, I was wondering if these are the specific model numbers and
types of speakers and/or componentry that the Europa's are made of?

W20RC-38-08 (8 inch Woofer) 26.60 (X2)
YAG-20 8 ohms 3 kHz -20 kHz 90 2.5"x6.12" 3.5"x6.62 27.50 (X2)
(www.madisound.com)

Cabinets 3/4 MDF

See below. These are kits. Pre-assembled with veneer.

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showd...D=121471&DID=7
This is simmilar. Bookshelf speaker, ready to put a driver in.
Figure $65 each, his cost. Maybe $60 for something like this.

It's actually not a bad cabinet.

Crossover network -- Unknown

Custom designed for a $40-$60 one time fee by Madisound.

Binding Post --$8.10 (www.madisound.com)

Check. Looks like it.

Veneer --

See above.

I come up with about $250 in cost. Given his 5* markup agenda/beliefs,
that jives - $1250 is pretty clost to his asking price.

Too damn bad everyone else did the work for him. It's really NOT
worth the money if he even got Madisound to design the crossover.
(as if their designs are anything more than merely acceptable)

Joseph Oberlander wrote:
trotsky wrote:



Joseph Oberlander wrote:

trotsky wrote:

Whose review was this, again?




I'm a very critical listener, Dev, and these are very good speakers.
dave did a poor, almost nonexistent job of communicating this fact.




LMAO. What a rube you are, Greg.

"These are very good speakers. The reviewer did a poor job of
communicating
this fact"

LOL. You honhestly have to idea how anal, ivory tower condescending
and biased you sounded there, did you?




Joe, you own JBL. Sound quality is something you have yet to prove
you understand.


And after all these years, you still can't tell the difference between
JLB's consumer crap and their studio monitors.


Oh, I think I can. JBLs, too.

Joseph Oberlander wrote:
Guilty Bystander wrote:


Greg, I was wondering if these are the specific model numbers and
types of speakers and/or componentry that the Europa's are made of?

W20RC-38-08 (8 inch Woofer) 26.60 (X2)
YAG-20 8 ohms 3 kHz -20 kHz 90 2.5"x6.12" 3.5"x6.62 27.50 (X2)
(www.madisound.com)



Cabinets 3/4 MDF


See below. These are kits. Pre-assembled with veneer.

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showd...D=121471&DID=7
This is simmilar. Bookshelf speaker, ready to put a driver in.
Figure $65 each, his cost. Maybe $60 for something like this.


God, this is tedious. Joe, get off your big fat hairy ass and build a
speaker. You can't do it, and come on this group to mentally
masturbate. You can't even get a ****ing cardboard box for $65, you
stupid asshole.



snip

On Mon, 06 Oct 2003 23:11:12 +0200, Lionel
wrote:

dave weil wrote:
On Mon, 06 Oct 2003 20:43:06 GMT, Guilty Bystander
wrote:


Binding Post --$8.10 (www.madisound.com)


That does *not* appear to be the same binding post module (TD-CUP).
The one pictured on the web site has some additional brass that
doesn't seem present on the Europa. Maybe thy've redesigned it or
there are several variations though.

Also, I need to point out that Greg didn't bother to send the bridging
straps with the speaker. I used my own Hovland straps.

He thought that you will use double amplification !

That's true. That's what he thought.

I don't know why he'd assume that, but, oh well...hopefully the
regular stock comes ready for use by everyone.

dave weil said:

He thought that you will use double amplification !

That's true. That's what he thought.

I don't know why he'd assume that, but, oh well...hopefully the
regular stock comes ready for use by everyone.

Maybe Gregipus is just creating an opportunity for delivering a
lecture on "finding your genitalia" or whatever he calls it. If
somebody asks for the bridge, they have to endure an harangue about
being two cheap to own a second amplifier, which as we all know is an
absolute prerequisite for being a studly audio geek like Gregipus.

dave weil said:

He thought that you will use double amplification !

That's true. That's what he thought.

I don't know why he'd assume that, but, oh well...hopefully the
regular stock comes ready for use by everyone.

Maybe Gregipus is just creating an opportunity for delivering a
lecture on "finding your genitalia" or whatever he calls it. If
somebody asks for the bridge, they have to endure an harangue about
being too cheap to own a second amplifier, which as we all know is an
absolute prerequisite for being a studly audio geek like Gregipus.

trotsky wrote:



Joseph Oberlander wrote:

Guilty Bystander wrote:


Greg, I was wondering if these are the specific model numbers and
types of speakers and/or componentry that the Europa's are made of?

W20RC-38-08 (8 inch Woofer) 26.60 (X2)
YAG-20 8 ohms 3 kHz -20 kHz 90 2.5"x6.12" 3.5"x6.62 27.50 (X2)
(www.madisound.com)




Cabinets 3/4 MDF



See below. These are kits. Pre-assembled with veneer.

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showd...D=121471&DID=7

This is simmilar. Bookshelf speaker, ready to put a driver in.
Figure $65 each, his cost. Maybe $60 for something like this.



God, this is tedious. Joe, get off your big fat hairy ass and build a
speaker. You can't do it, and come on this group to mentally
masturbate. You can't even get a ****ing cardboard box for $65, you
stupid asshole.

I don;t need to buiold a speaker to see that yours is lifted off of
designs bought at retail price from Madisound.

Do you go to the makers directly - or even try to? No, you pay
$25 for a $15 speaker thanks to Madisound's markups(which you
seem to defend).

So, in reality, it's closer to $200 in materials/cost for the entire
pair of speakers if you went directly to the manufacturers.

Nice extra $350 you're taking on. Consumers paying retail markup on top
of retail markup? It won't take long for the reviews to point out
exactly where the parts come from and do some price comparisons,
then tell the consumers exactly how to build the same thing themselves
for $300.

dave weil wrote:
On Mon, 06 Oct 2003 23:11:12 +0200, Lionel
wrote:


dave weil wrote:

On Mon, 06 Oct 2003 20:43:06 GMT, Guilty Bystander
wrote:



Binding Post --$8.10 (www.madisound.com)


That does *not* appear to be the same binding post module (TD-CUP).
The one pictured on the web site has some additional brass that
doesn't seem present on the Europa. Maybe thy've redesigned it or
there are several variations though.

Also, I need to point out that Greg didn't bother to send the bridging
straps with the speaker. I used my own Hovland straps.

He thought that you will use double amplification !


That's true. That's what he thought.

I don't know why he'd assume that, but, oh well...hopefully the
regular stock comes ready for use by everyone.


Most people serious about audio biwire their speakers. But hey, don't
let me get in the way of your discussions with the sockpuppet.

George M. Middius wrote:

dave weil said:


He thought that you will use double amplification !

That's true. That's what he thought.

I don't know why he'd assume that, but, oh well...hopefully the
regular stock comes ready for use by everyone.


Maybe Gregipus is just creating an opportunity for delivering a
lecture on "finding your genitalia" or whatever he calls it. If
somebody asks for the bridge, they have to endure an harangue about
being two cheap to own a second amplifier, which as we all know is an
absolute prerequisite for being a studly audio geek like Gregipus.


George talking about audio--that alone was almost worth the price of
admission.

Joseph Oberlander wrote:
trotsky wrote:



Joseph Oberlander wrote:

Guilty Bystander wrote:


Greg, I was wondering if these are the specific model numbers and
types of speakers and/or componentry that the Europa's are made of?

W20RC-38-08 (8 inch Woofer) 26.60 (X2)
YAG-20 8 ohms 3 kHz -20 kHz 90 2.5"x6.12" 3.5"x6.62 27.50 (X2)
(www.madisound.com)





Cabinets 3/4 MDF




See below. These are kits. Pre-assembled with veneer.

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showd...D=121471&DID=7

This is simmilar. Bookshelf speaker, ready to put a driver in.
Figure $65 each, his cost. Maybe $60 for something like this.




God, this is tedious. Joe, get off your big fat hairy ass and build a
speaker. You can't do it, and come on this group to mentally
masturbate. You can't even get a ****ing cardboard box for $65, you
stupid asshole.


I don;t need to buiold


Yeah, that about sums it up.

Gregory Singh president of Jupiter-Audio a subsidiary of Madisound "do
it yourself" branch wrote :

Most people serious about audio biwire their speakers. But hey, don't
let me get in the way of your discussions with the sockpuppet.


I prefer to be a sockpuppet rather than to be a suck-puppet like you !

On Tue, 07 Oct 2003 11:53:35 GMT, trotsky wrote:

Most people serious about audio biwire their speakers. But hey, don't
let me get in the way of your discussions with the sockpuppet.

This of course is a lie. A *small* proportion of people "serious about
audio" biwaire.

And you know it.

"trotsky" wrote in message

George M. Middius wrote:

dave weil said:


He thought that you will use double amplification !

That's true. That's what he thought.

I don't know why he'd assume that, but, oh well...hopefully the
regular stock comes ready for use by everyone.

Maybe Gregipus is just creating an opportunity for delivering a
lecture on "finding your genitalia" or whatever he calls it. If
somebody asks for the bridge, they have to endure an harangue about
being two cheap to own a second amplifier, which as we all know is an
absolute prerequisite for being a studly audio geek like Gregipus.

Note that George, our local English Composition expert, just confused "two"
and "too". Why isn't sockpuppet Yustabe ranting about this? LOL!

George talking about audio--that alone was almost worth the price of
admission.

Singh calling George's profane posturing "talking about audio" - totally
worthless because we already know how stupid he is.