Adam Stouffer wrote:
bulldog wrote:

First of all I didn't sell amps. I repaired them. The owner already
knew his amplifier. He knew what to do and not to do. He also knew
what he should touch and what not to touch. Old 2 prong tube amps had
their safety issues, but the owners accepted that, and continued using
them because they liked them.

Remember, the type of equipment in question was built long before
everybody started seuing everybody else.

How did people survive all those years with so many radios having a hot
chassis? They seemed safe enough to be sold by the thousands to
everyone. What really scares me are resistor cords...

Most of those radio and TV sets had wooden chassis and plastic knobs, which
kept anyone from directly touching the chassis. Some of them (most notably
some notorious GE portable TV sets from the fifties) did not, and some folks
occasionally got hurt on those.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

chetatkinsdiet wrote:

It's not knowing your **** that makes one hated. It's being a total
dickhead, knowitall like you that has zero sense of humor that starts
a conversation by trying to attack someone else for no reason.
My advice to the guy to not worry so much about a vintage amp that he
didn't even buy because he was worried about it shocking him wasn't
really in the technical nature.
So, **** you, **** off and always from now on, expect me to suggest
someone else when looking for tubes.
m

Fine with me, sparky.

And from now on, whenever you post ingnorant bull**** like
you posted, I'll rub your nose in it. Fair enough?

Lord Valve
Expert

"Geoff Wood" -nospam said:

Anyway, only pansy lberial commie socialist cry-babies would worry about a
healthy dose of mains up the armpit, eh. Good strong christofascists like
us can take it no problem.

Then you assume Lord Valve is a pansy liberal commie socialist
crybaby?

BTW congrats on the creative use of language, LMAO! :-)

--
Sander de Waal
" SOA of a KT88? Sufficient. "

Lord Valve wrote in message ...

*You* have no business handing out safety information. Go practice
your scales (or, if you're a rock player, your scale) and leave the tech
stuff to the people who know it.

Maybe this is one way to help improve the gene pool.

Anyway, a high-capacity & cheap islolation xfmr that one can make,
maybe even in the ammo box mentioned by another, or at least in a
similar safe enclosure, beats the bleep out of using filament xfmrs if
real pwr is needed:

Salvage the PT's from 2 junked microwave ovens (usually the magnetrons
or electronics die leaving a good PT). Don't do this if you are a
dumfuk or space cadet because their secondaries are very HV, death
guaranteed (more gene pool refinement). Sometimes they are welded up
& need to be ground open, but they are free. Connect the HV sec's
back-to-back, and either weld their enclosures together, or do the
ammo box trick with a chassis-mount 3-wire outlet and be smart about
the layout. This will give you a ~ 1kw isolation xfmr for little or
no cash. If you get bored with it, it might be used as a small boat
mooring(gheavy).

"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message


Most of those radio and TV sets had wooden chassis and plastic knobs,
which kept anyone from directly touching the chassis. Some of them
(most notably some notorious GE portable TV sets from the fifties)
did not, and some folks occasionally got hurt on those.

This reminds me of a story about some computer installation guys that were
pushing some big cabinets around while they were still hooked to power. Two
cabinets brushed in passing, there was a really big flash, and it took a
crowbar to pry the welded sections apart.

On 22 Nov 2004 11:58:30 -0500, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:

Most of those radio and TV sets had wooden chassis and plastic knobs, which
kept anyone from directly touching the chassis. Some of them (most notably
some notorious GE portable TV sets from the fifties) did not, and some folks
occasionally got hurt on those.

And most of them had metal screws, holding them into the cabinet and
screwing directly into the metal chassis. The exposed heads of the
screws and their washers were at the same potential as the metal
chassis. I have never seen an AC-DC radio or TV with a wooden
chassis, but I guess that you actually meant to say wooden cabinets.

When I worked in Miami in the early '60s, many customers would
complain that they got a tingle when they touched the record changer
in their console stereo, when they were barefoot standing on the
terrazzo floor. The only practical solution was, put a rug in front
of the stereo.


Brian McAllister
PO Box 25910
Sarasota FL 34277-2910

On 22 Nov 2004 09:25:06 -0800, wrote:

This will give you a ~ 1kw isolation xfmr for little or
no cash. If you get bored with it, it might be used as a small boat
mooring(gheavy).

I have a 1kva medically rated (lower leakage current) isolation
transformer that I bought, unused, from Duke University Surplus, for
$25. That was a pretty good deal. Still very heavy.


Brian McAllister
PO Box 25910
Sarasota FL 34277-2910

I'll build you a nice custom hand-wired, point-to-point tubed amp if you
want. I'll even use 50C5s, 35W4s and 12AV6s if that's what you want.

Difference is, this one will be safe, using an input power transformer,
full-wave rectifiers and push-pull outputs. Just send me the specs,
features, and power requirements. Volume knobs only go up to 10, however.

Geoff Wood wrote:
Two-prong cords are not the same as 'hot chassis'. You can have a
two-prong cord with the chassis still isolated by a mains
transformer.

This is the crucial point! There is "vintage" and there is "vintage".
If your tube lineup is all 6XX and 12XXX, you are OK because these
almost certainly have a power transformer isolating the amp from the
line. If the tube lineup has things like 50C5, 35W4, numbers like
that, the novice should be wary because it is probably a
power-transformer-less design and could present a shock hazard in
normal operation.

--
Fred Gilham
Comprehensive Computer Language Preference Survey
Do you like Lisp? (Check one)
[ ] Yes [ ] Sure [ ] You bet [ ] Yep [ ] Da

In article writes:

It's not knowing your **** that makes one hated. It's being a total
dickhead, knowitall like you that has zero sense of humor that starts
a conversation by trying to attack someone else for no reason.

So, **** you, **** off and always from now on, expect me to suggest
someone else when looking for tubes.

I wasn't sure who you were takling about (I've been described as such
sometimes), but that last line clarifies it.

Yes, I don't understand Lord Valve. He seems to have a good reputation
for both knowledge and stock, but the few times he's descended on this
newsgroup (rec.audio.pro, in case this is cross-posted and I didn't
notice) he's been a real jerk in print. Not good in a crowd.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

That's what i meant. I was typing fast and was thinking hot chassis
and typing 2 prong cord.
later,
m

"Geoff Wood" -nospam wrote in message
...

"bulldog" wrote in message
om...
Sander deWaal wrote in message
. ..
(bulldog) said:

Anyway, only pansy lberial commie socialist cry-babies would worry about a
healthy dose of mains up the armpit, eh. Good strong christofascists like
us can take it no problem.

geoff


What about we "Good strong christofascists" on the other side of the
Atlantic
in Europe. We have 230-240VAC. Do you think we can take it? :-))

Iain

"Iain M Churches" in
:
:
: "Geoff Wood" -nospam wrote in message
: ...
:
: "bulldog" wrote in message
: om...
: Sander deWaal wrote in message
: . ..
: (bulldog) said:
:
: Anyway, only pansy lberial commie socialist cry-babies would worry about a
: healthy dose of mains up the armpit, eh. Good strong christofascists like
: us can take it no problem.
:
: geoff

Have to say I thought that was "Iberial" in Arial font ...
(i.e. from Iberia;-) (still looks the same as I write:-)

: What about we "Good strong christofascists" on the other side of the
: Atlantic
: in Europe. We have 230-240VAC. Do you think we can take it? :-))
:
: Iain

Sure. Just build one of these and test yourself, uh, out;-)
http://www.emanator.demon.co.uk/bigclive/tickle.htm

(Mike Rivers) wrote in message news:znr1101141044k@trad...

Yes, I don't understand Lord Valve. He seems to have a good reputation
for both knowledge and stock, but the few times he's descended on this
newsgroup (rec.audio.pro, in case this is cross-posted and I didn't
notice) he's been a real jerk in print. Not good in a crowd.

BUT, he makes his living fixing tube amps. Of all the people reading this
thread (remember to how many groups that it's cross posted to) very few
people can say that. When it comes to fixing tubes amps I would listen to
him more closely than anybody here. When somebody is giving out wrong and
bad information, it needs to be corrected. Especially when it is
life threatening.
And no, I am not related to him and have never done business with him.

"Kruse" wrote in message
m...
(Mike Rivers) wrote in message
news:znr1101141044k@trad...

Yes, I don't understand Lord Valve. He seems to have a good reputation
for both knowledge and stock, but the few times he's descended on this
newsgroup (rec.audio.pro, in case this is cross-posted and I didn't
notice) he's been a real jerk in print. Not good in a crowd.

BUT, he makes his living fixing tube amps. Of all the people reading this
thread (remember to how many groups that it's cross posted to) very few
people can say that. When it comes to fixing tubes amps I would listen to
him more closely than anybody here. When somebody is giving out wrong and
bad information, it needs to be corrected. Especially when it is
life threatening.
And no, I am not related to him and have never done business with him.

Dunno what the rules are where he come's from.. But in this socialist
paradise, if I repair something I have to put a sticker on it, signed by me,
saying that it has been tested to comply with electrical safety regulations.
How's that for personal responsibilty ?

But then, we do have national electrical safety regulations...

geoff

What a great word, "Christofascists"
Darwin who?

Tom

"Sander deWaal" wrote in message
...
"Geoff Wood" -nospam said:

Anyway, only pansy lberial commie socialist cry-babies would worry about
a
healthy dose of mains up the armpit, eh. Good strong christofascists
like
us can take it no problem.

Then you assume Lord Valve is a pansy liberal commie socialist
crybaby?

BTW congrats on the creative use of language, LMAO! :-)

--
Sander de Waal
" SOA of a KT88? Sufficient. "

In article writes:

BUT, he [Lord Valve] makes his living fixing tube amps. Of all the people reading this
thread (remember to how many groups that it's cross posted to) very few
people can say that. When it comes to fixing tubes amps I would listen to
him more closely than anybody here.

Maybe people who need their toob amps fixed are just tough guys who
like other guys who talk tough.

Did he give an explanation of why a chassis becomes hot? I'm sure he
could, but instead, chose to attack a participant. That doesn't give a
good impression for a businessman.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

"D. Lemon" wrote in message ...

A hand-wired, point-to-point, class A vintage tube amp for that "mojo'
tone - that's the ticket! My ignorance was bliss.

Here are my suggestions. First, forget about hot chassis amps -- there
are enough designs out there to allow choosing one with an isolation
transformer power supply. Second, take it to a tech and have them
bring it up to modern safety standards.

Third, don't bring it to a gig. Bring a POD instead.

Thankfully, I play jazz, and it has been a long time since I've seen a
tube amp on the bandstand.

In article writes:

Here are my suggestions. First, forget about hot chassis amps -- there
are enough designs out there to allow choosing one with an isolation
transformer power supply.

Are there truly hot-chassis amplifiers that serious vintage tone
lovers really want? Or are we talking about broken amplifiers with
power transformers here?

This discussion is getting a little silly-paranoid. If Some Famous
Guitarist really uses a three-tube-no-power-transformer amplfier to
get "that sound" I'm sure he has it well isolated so he will continue
to be able to gig for many years. But I'll bet nobody really uses
those things no matter how popular trash is in the guitar field.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

(Mike Rivers) wrote in message news:znr1101299358k@trad...
In article writes:

Here are my suggestions. First, forget about hot chassis amps -- there
are enough designs out there to allow choosing one with an isolation
transformer power supply.

Are there truly hot-chassis amplifiers that serious vintage tone
lovers really want? Or are we talking about broken amplifiers with
power transformers here?

This discussion is getting a little silly-paranoid. If Some Famous
Guitarist really uses a three-tube-no-power-transformer amplfier to
get "that sound" I'm sure he has it well isolated so he will continue
to be able to gig for many years. But I'll bet nobody really uses
those things no matter how popular trash is in the guitar field.

You'd be surprised at what people will dredge up out of the closet and
plug a guitar into. I have never seen hot chassis gear, but plenty of
other things. One time I got to the gig with easily five minutes to
spare, and the guitarist had been there for an hour hooking up an
amazing assemblage that included an old Marshall with a two-wire cord,
some 240 Volt gadgets plugged into an autotransformer, and a
relatively new "boutique" tube amp. All powered by a combination of
those cheap two-prong extensions with the three little outlets on one
end. The three-prong plugs were stuck into the outlets so the third
prong was doing nothing. The Marshall was being used for vocals. And
he told me he sometimes got a shock from it.

From what I can tell, the famous guitarists are the ones using modern
solid state gear. There may still be tube amps being used by some rock
and blues players, but on jazz gigs, I see mostly small solid state
amps.

On 24 Nov 2004 17:38:51 -0800, (Georg Grosz)
wrote:

From what I can tell, the famous guitarists are the ones using modern
solid state gear. There may still be tube amps being used by some rock
and blues players, but on jazz gigs, I see mostly small solid state
amps.

Maybe jazz players use them, but if you are going to talk about really
"famous" guitar players (most jazz guitarist being totally unknown to
the general public) the vast majority continue to use tube amps.

Al

Georg Grosz wrote:

From what I can tell, the famous guitarists are the ones using modern
solid state gear.

You should get out more.

LV

"play-on" wrote in message
news
On 24 Nov 2004 17:38:51 -0800, (Georg Grosz)
wrote:

From what I can tell, the famous guitarists are the ones using modern
solid state gear. There may still be tube amps being used by some rock
and blues players, but on jazz gigs, I see mostly small solid state
amps.

Maybe jazz players use them, but if you are going to talk about really
"famous" guitar players (most jazz guitarist being totally unknown to
the general public) the vast majority continue to use tube amps.

Al

I agree, Larry Carlton is a notable example and I don't know of a single
blues guitarist who doesn't use tubes. Then again, I don't get out much
either

Blues

Blues_Jam wrote:

"play-on" wrote in message
news
On 24 Nov 2004 17:38:51 -0800, (Georg Grosz)
wrote:

From what I can tell, the famous guitarists are the ones using modern
solid state gear. There may still be tube amps being used by some rock
and blues players, but on jazz gigs, I see mostly small solid state
amps.

Maybe jazz players use them, but if you are going to talk about really
"famous" guitar players (most jazz guitarist being totally unknown to
the general public) the vast majority continue to use tube amps.

Al

I agree, Larry Carlton is a notable example and I don't know of a single
blues guitarist who doesn't use tubes. Then again, I don't get out much
either

Blues


BB king plays a Lab Series.

LV

"play-on" wrote in message
news : On 24 Nov 2004 17:38:51 -0800,
(Georg Grosz)
: wrote:
:
: From what I can tell, the famous guitarists are the
ones using modern
: solid state gear. There may still be tube amps being
used by some rock
: and blues players, but on jazz gigs, I see mostly
small solid state
: amps.
:
: Maybe jazz players use them, but if you are going to
talk about really
: "famous" guitar players (most jazz guitarist being
totally unknown to
: the general public) the vast majority continue to use
tube amps.
:
: Al

And may I also add, that Al's vast majority of "famous"
guitar players above usually have only a cord between
the ax and the amp. It is all in the fingers, so save
yourself a lot of dough and learn to play like they
play instead of spending all your time and money on
gimmicks that may make your playing sound like their
sound but your playing still sounds like you playing. .

Phil

Lord Valve wrote:

Blues_Jam wrote:

"play-on" wrote:
(Georg Grosz) wrote:

From what I can tell, the famous guitarists are the ones using modern
solid state gear. There may still be tube amps being used by some rock
and blues players, but on jazz gigs, I see mostly small solid state
amps.

Maybe jazz players use them, but if you are going to talk about really
"famous" guitar players (most jazz guitarist being totally unknown to
the general public) the vast majority continue to use tube amps.

I agree, Larry Carlton is a notable example and I don't know of a single
blues guitarist who doesn't use tubes. Then again, I don't get out much
either

BB king plays a Lab Series.

Albert King played a solid state amp.

Harvey Gerst
Indian Trail Recording Studio
http://www.ITRstudio.com/

Harvey Gerst wrote:

Lord Valve wrote:

Blues_Jam wrote:

"play-on" wrote:
(Georg Grosz) wrote:

From what I can tell, the famous guitarists are the ones using modern
solid state gear. There may still be tube amps being used by some rock
and blues players, but on jazz gigs, I see mostly small solid state
amps.

Maybe jazz players use them, but if you are going to talk about really
"famous" guitar players (most jazz guitarist being totally unknown to
the general public) the vast majority continue to use tube amps.

I agree, Larry Carlton is a notable example and I don't know of a single
blues guitarist who doesn't use tubes. Then again, I don't get out much
either

BB king plays a Lab Series.

Albert King played a solid state amp.

Yes, an Acoustic 270, as I recall.

Heard it live. Sounded like ass. Admittedly, it was *LOUD* ass,
but it was still ass. Betcha cash money he didn't record with one.

LV

Lord Valve wrote:



Harvey Gerst wrote:

Lord Valve wrote:

Blues_Jam wrote:

"play-on" wrote:
(Georg Grosz) wrote:

From what I can tell, the famous guitarists are the ones using modern
solid state gear. There may still be tube amps being used by some rock
and blues players, but on jazz gigs, I see mostly small solid state
amps.

Maybe jazz players use them, but if you are going to talk about really
"famous" guitar players (most jazz guitarist being totally unknown to
the general public) the vast majority continue to use tube amps.

I agree, Larry Carlton is a notable example and I don't know of a single
blues guitarist who doesn't use tubes. Then again, I don't get out much
either

BB king plays a Lab Series.

Albert King played a solid state amp.

Yes, an Acoustic 270, as I recall.

Heard it live. Sounded like ass. Admittedly, it was *LOUD* ass,
but it was still ass. Betcha cash money he didn't record with one.

LV,

I think it was an Acoustic 261 and yes, he did record with it.

Harvey Gerst
Indian Trail Recording Studio
http://www.ITRstudio.com/

Harvey Gerst wrote:

Lord Valve wrote:



Harvey Gerst wrote:

Lord Valve wrote:

Blues_Jam wrote:

"play-on" wrote:
(Georg Grosz) wrote:

From what I can tell, the famous guitarists are the ones using modern
solid state gear. There may still be tube amps being used by some rock
and blues players, but on jazz gigs, I see mostly small solid state
amps.

Maybe jazz players use them, but if you are going to talk about really
"famous" guitar players (most jazz guitarist being totally unknown to
the general public) the vast majority continue to use tube amps.

I agree, Larry Carlton is a notable example and I don't know of a single
blues guitarist who doesn't use tubes. Then again, I don't get out much
either

BB king plays a Lab Series.

Albert King played a solid state amp.

Yes, an Acoustic 270, as I recall.

Heard it live. Sounded like ass. Admittedly, it was *LOUD* ass,
but it was still ass. Betcha cash money he didn't record with one.

LV,

I think it was an Acoustic 261 and yes, he did record with it.

Still sounded like ass live.

LV

Lord Valve wrote:



Harvey Gerst wrote:

Lord Valve wrote:



Harvey Gerst wrote:

Lord Valve wrote:

Blues_Jam wrote:

"play-on" wrote:
(Georg Grosz) wrote:

From what I can tell, the famous guitarists are the ones using modern
solid state gear. There may still be tube amps being used by some rock
and blues players, but on jazz gigs, I see mostly small solid state
amps.

Maybe jazz players use them, but if you are going to talk about really
"famous" guitar players (most jazz guitarist being totally unknown to
the general public) the vast majority continue to use tube amps.

I agree, Larry Carlton is a notable example and I don't know of a single
blues guitarist who doesn't use tubes. Then again, I don't get out much
either

BB king plays a Lab Series.

Albert King played a solid state amp.

Yes, an Acoustic 270, as I recall.

Heard it live. Sounded like ass. Admittedly, it was *LOUD* ass,
but it was still ass. Betcha cash money he didn't record with one.

I think it was an Acoustic 261 and yes, he did record with it.

Still sounded like ass live.

Well, Albert seemed to like it.

Harvey Gerst
Indian Trail Recording Studio
http://www.ITRstudio.com/

"Harvey Gerst" wrote in message
...
Lord Valve wrote:



Harvey Gerst wrote:

Lord Valve wrote:



Harvey Gerst wrote:

Lord Valve wrote:

Blues_Jam wrote:

"play-on" wrote:
(Georg Grosz) wrote:

From what I can tell, the famous guitarists are the ones using
modern
solid state gear. There may still be tube amps being used by
some rock
and blues players, but on jazz gigs, I see mostly small solid
state
amps.

Maybe jazz players use them, but if you are going to talk about
really
"famous" guitar players (most jazz guitarist being totally
unknown to
the general public) the vast majority continue to use tube
amps.

I agree, Larry Carlton is a notable example and I don't know of a
single
blues guitarist who doesn't use tubes. Then again, I don't get
out much
either

BB king plays a Lab Series.

Albert King played a solid state amp.

Yes, an Acoustic 270, as I recall.

Heard it live. Sounded like ass. Admittedly, it was *LOUD* ass,
but it was still ass. Betcha cash money he didn't record with one.

I think it was an Acoustic 261 and yes, he did record with it.

Still sounded like ass live.

Well, Albert seemed to like it.

Harvey Gerst
Indian Trail Recording Studio
http://www.ITRstudio.com/


Finally...celebrity death match warm up, Harvey vs. Valve.

On Fri, 26 Nov 2004 00:28:50 -0600, Harvey Gerst
wrote:

Lord Valve wrote:



Harvey Gerst wrote:

Lord Valve wrote:



Harvey Gerst wrote:

Lord Valve wrote:

Blues_Jam wrote:

"play-on" wrote:
(Georg Grosz) wrote:

From what I can tell, the famous guitarists are the ones using modern
solid state gear. There may still be tube amps being used by some rock
and blues players, but on jazz gigs, I see mostly small solid state
amps.

Maybe jazz players use them, but if you are going to talk about really
"famous" guitar players (most jazz guitarist being totally unknown to
the general public) the vast majority continue to use tube amps.

I agree, Larry Carlton is a notable example and I don't know of a single
blues guitarist who doesn't use tubes. Then again, I don't get out much
either

BB king plays a Lab Series.

Albert King played a solid state amp.

Yes, an Acoustic 270, as I recall.

Heard it live. Sounded like ass. Admittedly, it was *LOUD* ass,
but it was still ass. Betcha cash money he didn't record with one.

I think it was an Acoustic 261 and yes, he did record with it.

Still sounded like ass live.

Well, Albert seemed to like it.

But Harvey, you must remember, LV knows everything.

Al

But Harvey, you must remember, LV knows everything.

Does he know *why* tube amps sound different than transistor amps? Does he
know *how* a transistor amp might be designed to sound like a tube amp?

Hint: It has to do with how these amps overload, iron in the signal path (or
lack of it), and the amount, type and speed of feedback, etc.

Hint: Tubes *and* FETs are both field-effect devices.

Discuss.

play-on wrote:

Harvey Gerst wrote:
Lord Valve wrote:

Albert King played a solid state amp.

I think it was an Acoustic 261 and yes, he did record with it.

Still sounded like ass live.

Well, Albert seemed to like it.

But Harvey, you must remember, LV knows everything.

Al

True, I just knew Albert.

Harvey Gerst
Indian Trail Recording Studio
http://www.ITRstudio.com/

Karl Uppiano wrote:
But Harvey, you must remember, LV knows everything.

Does he know *why* tube amps sound different than transistor amps? Does he
know *how* a transistor amp might be designed to sound like a tube amp?

Hell, I have been doing this since before freshman circuits lab involved building
an AA5 radio, and I'm not really sure all the reasons why tube and solid state
amps sound different.

Hint: It has to do with how these amps overload, iron in the signal path (or
lack of it), and the amount, type and speed of feedback, etc.

Partially, but I can build you a zero-feedback tube amp and a zero-feedback
solid state amp with the same output transformer and they'll sound different.

Hint: Tubes *and* FETs are both field-effect devices.

Sure, but the curves are different. Hell, for that matter, the curves on
beam power tetrodes and straight pentodes are totally different. And the
curves on different FET configurations are different. It's all different.
It's a wonder anyone can agree on how things should sound at all.
---scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
...
Karl Uppiano wrote:
But Harvey, you must remember, LV knows everything.

Does he know *why* tube amps sound different than transistor amps? Does he
know *how* a transistor amp might be designed to sound like a tube amp?

Hell, I have been doing this since before freshman circuits lab involved
building
an AA5 radio, and I'm not really sure all the reasons why tube and solid
state
amps sound different.

I wonder if anyone has done any controlled research on this. Musical
instrument amplifiers tend to be overdriven a lot, or rely on non-linear
characteristics. Tubes and transistors have obvious differences in their
behavior in overload, partially due to the dramatically different design
philosophies and parameters. Under strictly linear operating conditions,
It's a lot harder to explain sonic differences, if any (especially if noise,
frequency response and distortion are similar in the amplifiers being
compared).

Hint: It has to do with how these amps overload, iron in the signal path
(or
lack of it), and the amount, type and speed of feedback, etc.

Partially, but I can build you a zero-feedback tube amp and a
zero-feedback
solid state amp with the same output transformer and they'll sound
different.

Are there any *measureable* differences between them? Are they running into
overload at any time?

Hint: Tubes *and* FETs are both field-effect devices.

Sure, but the curves are different. Hell, for that matter, the curves on
beam power tetrodes and straight pentodes are totally different. And the
curves on different FET configurations are different. It's all different.
It's a wonder anyone can agree on how things should sound at all.

FET curves look a lot like tetrode curves to me, although the voltages and
currents are much different. Some high-end tube enthusiasts only like to
listen to triode amplifiers. Sometimes, only class-A amplifiers, despite the
fact that the price per watt becomes enormous.

My personal belief is that the quest for highest fidelity, from an
engineering perspective (i.e., numerically, scientifically and objectively)
is most easily accomplished using BJT designs. But if money (and
reliability, repeatability and consistency) is no object, some interesting
creations can be made by trial-and-error using other devices. This is a
generalization, of course. I have designed with JFETs and MOSFETs or opamps
because of some specific design requirement or another with very predictable
results. So far, I have never been called upon by any employer to design any
tube gear.

For musical instrument amplifiers, and live recording (where the maximum
level is not known in advance) tubes may have the advantage due to the way
they overload. But according to articles I've read on the subject, this is
partially due (as I said in my earlier post) to the amount of feedback, and
the amount of iron in the audio path, as well as tube characteristics
themselves.

Of course, this is all speculation until someone actually publishes some
scientific research, which may never happen. I doubt there's any money in
it. I often wonder how audio history would have looked if FETs were the
first transistors, instead of BJTs. The transition to solid state design
would have been much smoother, I think.

Harvey Gerst wrote:

play-on wrote:

Harvey Gerst wrote:
Lord Valve wrote:

Albert King played a solid state amp.

I think it was an Acoustic 261 and yes, he did record with it.

Still sounded like ass live.

Well, Albert seemed to like it.

But Harvey, you must remember, LV knows everything.

Al

True, I just knew Albert.

Hey, one man's trash is another man's treasure.

No-one said you can't like amps that sound like ass.
I don't make the rules, I'm just an observer. If you're
in love with three-legged fuses, no reason Albert can't
be too. I know a few folks who aren't; turn your radio
on and have a listen, won't you? It's all good. ;-)


Lord Valve
Tone Chaperone

VISIT MY WEBSITE: http://www.nebsnow.com/LordValve
I specialize in top quality HAND SELECTED NOS and
current-production vacuum tubes for guitar and
bass amps. Good prices, fast service.
QSC amps, RNC compressors, lots of other good stuff!

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* Meatloaf * Catherine Wheel * Yo La Tengo * Let's Go Bowling *
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* Komet Amplification * Dr. Z * Maven Peal * Blockhead Amps *
* Jim Kelley * Balls Amplification * Roccaforte Amplifiers *
* Gerhart Amplification * Aiken Amplification * The Right Half of AGA *
* Lots More *

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Phone orders/tech support after 1:30 PM Denver time at 303-778-1156

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Karl Uppiano wrote:

But Harvey, you must remember, LV knows everything.

Does he know *why* tube amps sound different than transistor amps?

Probably. ;-)

Does he
know *how* a transistor amp might be designed to sound like a tube amp?

Does he give a ****? Probably not. ;-)

Hint: It has to do with how these amps overload, iron in the signal path (or
lack of it), and the amount, type and speed of feedback, etc.

Gosh, thanks.

Hint: Tubes *and* FETs are both field-effect devices.

Hint: trons need plenty of room to frolic.

Now, if you wanna squish 'em all up into an itty-bitty
piece of sand, you go right ahead. I prefer free-range
organic trons which have plenty of room to do the bop,
the shimmy, the shake, or whatever other gyrations
their little homespun inspiration may lead them to try.
Don't need no consarned foreign molecules in the
way, or no dope, neither.

Discuss.

Go right ahead.

Lord Valve
Uberrohrenfuhrer, Thousand Year Glass Reich

Karl Uppiano wrote:

I wonder if anyone has done any controlled research on this. Musical
instrument amplifiers tend to be overdriven a lot, or rely on non-linear
characteristics. Tubes and transistors have obvious differences in their
behavior in overload, partially due to the dramatically different design
philosophies and parameters. Under strictly linear operating conditions,
It's a lot harder to explain sonic differences, if any (especially if noise,
frequency response and distortion are similar in the amplifiers being
compared).

Lots and lots. There's that terrible 1972 JAES paper that keeps turning
up, but there have also been some more careful studies like some of
Marshall Leach's work. Doug Self's series on amplifier design in Wireless
World talks a little bit about different distortion modes and their
significance in different topologies. Remember, nothing is strictly linear,
although some things are more linear than others.

Hint: It has to do with how these amps overload, iron in the signal path
(or
lack of it), and the amount, type and speed of feedback, etc.

Partially, but I can build you a zero-feedback tube amp and a
zero-feedback
solid state amp with the same output transformer and they'll sound
different.

Are there any *measureable* differences between them? Are they running into
overload at any time?

Of course! The curves are different, so the distortion spectrum is going to
be measurably different. That's the real deal.

And I can build you a transistor amp and you can swap the 2N3055 output
transistors for MJ10004 (and rebias) and it'll sound different, again
because the distortion spectrum is measurably different. (The same goes
for a tube amp with swaps between tube types).

Hint: Tubes *and* FETs are both field-effect devices.

Sure, but the curves are different. Hell, for that matter, the curves on
beam power tetrodes and straight pentodes are totally different. And the
curves on different FET configurations are different. It's all different.
It's a wonder anyone can agree on how things should sound at all.

FET curves look a lot like tetrode curves to me, although the voltages and
currents are much different. Some high-end tube enthusiasts only like to
listen to triode amplifiers. Sometimes, only class-A amplifiers, despite the
fact that the price per watt becomes enormous.

I think in part that is a reaction to the obsession with amplifier power
that we've been seeing since the seventies. FET curves are more like triode
curves than they are like bipolar curves... but for that matter, the FET
curves aren't all the same. Doesn't take much of a change to be audible,
and kinks you can't see on the Tek curve tracer get quite easily measured
when you are sweeping a mixture of high and low level signals through an
amp.

My personal belief is that the quest for highest fidelity, from an
engineering perspective (i.e., numerically, scientifically and objectively)
is most easily accomplished using BJT designs. But if money (and
reliability, repeatability and consistency) is no object, some interesting
creations can be made by trial-and-error using other devices. This is a
generalization, of course. I have designed with JFETs and MOSFETs or opamps
because of some specific design requirement or another with very predictable
results. So far, I have never been called upon by any employer to design any
tube gear.

I have mostly designed tube amps, including a bunch of transformerless tube
amps using very high transconductance regulator tubes, and it has been a
hell of a lot of fun. I tend to prefer MOSFET designs over BJT stuff, if
only because it's possible to build much simpler circuits with less to go
wrong (no thermal compensation, etc.). But that's just me, and I don't know
anything about guitar amps at all, just hi-fi stuff.

For musical instrument amplifiers, and live recording (where the maximum
level is not known in advance) tubes may have the advantage due to the way
they overload. But according to articles I've read on the subject, this is
partially due (as I said in my earlier post) to the amount of feedback, and
the amount of iron in the audio path, as well as tube characteristics
themselves.

For the most part, yeah, but musical instrument amplifiers aren't really
amplifiers. They are part of a more complex system in which an instrument,
an amplifier, and a speaker, all interact. And they are specifically designed
not to be accurate. The low level distortion spectra as well as the spectra
at clipping are specifically designed for particular sounds, and often things
are done in the amplifier that compensate for things in the speaker or the
instrument so you can't easily separate the system into parts. This sounds
like a lot of work to model effectively to me.

Of course, this is all speculation until someone actually publishes some
scientific research, which may never happen. I doubt there's any money in
it. I often wonder how audio history would have looked if FETs were the
first transistors, instead of BJTs. The transition to solid state design
would have been much smoother, I think.

FETs actually were the first transistors, having been discovered some time
in the late 19th century. But they weren't practical (to the point of being
able to carry useful current) until well after junction transistors had
become popular. I'll think of the guy that discovered the things... Wentz
I want to say? It's discussed in the MIT Press book on the history of electric
power distribution.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

In article XDSpd.365$Hk6.19@trnddc05 writes:

Does he know *why* tube amps sound different than transistor amps? Does he
know *how* a transistor amp might be designed to sound like a tube amp?

I wonder if anyone has done any controlled research on this. Musical
instrument amplifiers tend to be overdriven a lot, or rely on non-linear
characteristics. Tubes and transistors have obvious differences in their
behavior in overload, partially due to the dramatically different design
philosophies and parameters. Under strictly linear operating conditions,

All the research in the AES isn't going to change a player's attitude.
If they play blues, they'll play tubes until there's no more vacuum.
It isn't about high fidelity. It's about attitude.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo