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Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Mr.T MrT@home wrote:
And whilst I would rather have a non compressed format, a decent MP3
will be no worse than a vinyl transfer in most cases.


The CD you make at home should sound exactly like the LP since it's been
made using the same turntable, etc.



It will be close but if you want real transapency move up to 24/96 or
higher.


If it doesn't, you're doing something
wrong.


Or not.


Of course many long since disposed of their turntable etc but not
LP collection then decide to digitise some of it using something bought
off ebay and wonder why it doesn't seem to sound quite as good as they
fondly remember..


The better the playback equipment the better the digital copy. No doubt
about that.

Scott

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Laurence Payne wrote:
On Wed, 25 Oct 2006 09:09:01 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

The CD you make at home should sound exactly like the LP since it's been
made using the same turntable, etc.


Trouble is, it will.


Trouble is it won't. If you go 24/96 and do it right it will. But that
isn't trouble. It's great.


And without the romance of expensive antique
hardware, you'll notice how ropey it sounds.


What a load of crap.


Scott

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Serge Auckland Serge Auckland is offline
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wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Mr.T MrT@home wrote:
And whilst I would rather have a non compressed format, a decent MP3
will be no worse than a vinyl transfer in most cases.

The CD you make at home should sound exactly like the LP since it's been
made using the same turntable, etc.



It will be close but if you want real transapency move up to 24/96 or
higher.


That depends on what you will be doing with the recording:- If just
copying off vinyl and burning a CD, as the CD is 16/44.1, there's no
point recording it at any higher resolution just to come down again
immediately. If however you will be applying de-clicking, de-crackle and
noise reduction (preferably in that order), then there is some reason to
record at a higher resolution, process, then dither down to 16 bit and
SRC to 44.1 later.

I have deliberately avoided the argument as to whether even 16bit is
excessive for vinyl.........

S.



If it doesn't, you're doing something
wrong.


Or not.


Of course many long since disposed of their turntable etc but not
LP collection then decide to digitise some of it using something bought
off ebay and wonder why it doesn't seem to sound quite as good as they
fondly remember..


The better the playback equipment the better the digital copy. No doubt
about that.

Scott

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Richard Crowley Richard Crowley is offline
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"Serge Auckland" wrote ...

I have deliberately avoided the argument as to whether even 16bit is
excessive for vinyl.........


Didn't think there was any argument?
Is ANY vinyl capable of SNR in excess of 16 bits?


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Richard Crowley wrote:
"Serge Auckland" wrote ...

I have deliberately avoided the argument as to whether even 16bit is
excessive for vinyl.........


Didn't think there was any argument?
Is ANY vinyl capable of SNR in excess of 16 bits?


Not as far as I'm concerned, but there will be some who feel that even
24/96 doesn't do justice to the essential beauty of vinyl.....

S.
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On 25 Oct 2006 09:07:24 -0700, wrote:

And without the romance of expensive antique
hardware, you'll notice how ropey it sounds.


What a load of crap.


I wouldn't have put it that strongly. But, yes, vinyl can sound
pretty bad.
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Serge Auckland wrote:
wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Mr.T MrT@home wrote:
And whilst I would rather have a non compressed format, a decent MP3
will be no worse than a vinyl transfer in most cases.
The CD you make at home should sound exactly like the LP since it's been
made using the same turntable, etc.



It will be close but if you want real transapency move up to 24/96 or
higher.


That depends on what you will be doing with the recording:- If just
copying off vinyl and burning a CD, as the CD is 16/44.1, there's no
point recording it at any higher resolution just to come down again
immediately. If however you will be applying de-clicking, de-crackle and
noise reduction (preferably in that order), then there is some reason to
record at a higher resolution, process, then dither down to 16 bit and
SRC to 44.1 later.

I have deliberately avoided the argument as to whether even 16bit is
excessive for vinyl.........

Well, we disagree about the transarency of 16/44.1 but a agree with
your point about the extra bits and their usefulness for any
processing. And consider that someday there may be some other kinds of
digital processing that one may want to play with. You can't have too
many bits only too few.



If it doesn't, you're doing something
wrong.


Or not.


Of course many long since disposed of their turntable etc but not
LP collection then decide to digitise some of it using something bought
off ebay and wonder why it doesn't seem to sound quite as good as they
fondly remember..


The better the playback equipment the better the digital copy. No doubt
about that.

Scott


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Dave Plowman (News) Dave Plowman (News) is offline
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In article .com,
wrote:
Unless they otherwise unobtainium, the novelty of LP-CD transfers will
wear off after approx 3 LPs. Especially if you subsequently hear a
real CD of the album.


That is true if one of the following circumstances exist.
1. Your TT gear sucks
2. You are near deaf
3. You are so consumed by anti analog biases that it takes over your
judgement.


So every LP sounds better than a CD of the same performance? Think your
anti digital bias has taken over your judgment. Or far more likely you
have never heard just how an LP degrades any audio signal.

--
*What boots up must come down *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
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On Wed, 25 Oct 2006 17:23:16 +0100, Serge Auckland
wrote:

If however you will be applying de-clicking, de-crackle and
noise reduction (preferably in that order),


But why would you need to polish the perfection of vinyl playback? :-)


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Serge Auckland wrote:
wrote:
Geoff wrote:
Glenn Richards wrote:


Unless they otherwise unobtainium, the novelty of LP-CD transfers will wear
off after approx 3 LPs. Especially if you subsequently hear a real CD of
the album.


That is true if one of the following circumstances exist.
1. Your TT gear sucks
2. You are near deaf
3. You are so consumed by anti analog biases that it takes over your
judgement.

Scott



Scott, I disagree:


OK.



1) My TT gear definitely does not suck (EMT 948 and AEG TRS9000)



Not my cup of tea but it doesn't suck.


2) I am not near deaf
3) I enjoy playing vinyl

But: the quality of my CDs generally (with one or two exceptions out of
many hundred of CDs)is better than all my vinyl. Even when I have the
same recording on CD and vinyl, I enjoy the CD more. Quieter, less
distortion, no pops.


OK then there may be a very particular taste in colorations that you
have. But it says bias to me. What CDs and LPs are we talking about
here? Certainly we are not talking about anything out of the
London?Decca classical catalog. There CDs are terrible for the most
part while their vinyl, if you get the right versions, is stunning. I'm
talking night and day difference here. We can't be talking about the
Blue note catalog. Until recently their CDs were abortions of the
originals. Can't be talking Riverside/fantasy jazz catalog either. What
about popular music? Simon and Garfunkel, Cat Stevens, Yes, Genesis,
Led Zeppelin, CCR, CSNY, The Guess Who, Roy Orbison etc etc? Ceratainly
there are some CDs that out perform any vinyl version of a given title
but IME they are in the vast minority. Two out of several hundred? I
think there is a problem there. Frankly I would say the same if one
were to say the same in favor of LPs. Of course one has to seek out the
best of each format. In most cases there are more than one version of
any given title on CD and on LP. AND the equipment makes a very big
difference. With all due respect, your rig, while collectable, is not
exactly high end in performance. No, it doesn't suck but it is not what
I would use for sound quality. Not by a long shot.



If you don't find the same, then that's your opinion and privilege to
hold such opinion, but it is far from universal.


Of course it isn't universal but amoung those audiophiles I know that
actually pay close attention to the sound quality of the vast array of
issues of popular titles, vinyl is largely the over all winner in most
cases.

Scott

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wrote in message
ps.com...

Laurence Payne wrote:
On Wed, 25 Oct 2006 09:09:01 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:


The CD you make at home should sound exactly like the LP since it's been
made using the same turntable, etc.


Trouble is, it will.


Trouble is it won't.


Dream on.

If you go 24/96 and do it right it will. But that
isn't trouble. It's great.


Horsefeathers.

And without the romance of expensive antique
hardware, you'll notice how ropey it sounds.


Don't tell that to a vinyl bigot - it will strike too close to home.

What a load of crap.


Your specialty Scott, I take it!


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Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article .com,
wrote:
Unless they otherwise unobtainium, the novelty of LP-CD transfers will
wear off after approx 3 LPs. Especially if you subsequently hear a
real CD of the album.


That is true if one of the following circumstances exist.
1. Your TT gear sucks
2. You are near deaf
3. You are so consumed by anti analog biases that it takes over your
judgement.


So every LP sounds better than a CD of the same performance?


Um, no. What convoluted logic lead you to that idea?

Think your
anti digital bias has taken over your judgment.


Arny? Is that you?

Or far more likely you
have never heard just how an LP degrades any audio signal.


Please explain the logic behind that claim. Are you suggesting I
haven't heard LPs? Can you say anything that makes sense?


Scott



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"Richard Crowley" wrote in message
...
"Serge Auckland" wrote ...

I have deliberately avoided the argument as to whether even 16bit is
excessive for vinyl.........


Didn't think there was any argument?


Is ANY vinyl capable of SNR in excess of 16 bits?


More like 12, 13 on the best day of its life.

It's interesting how ignorant vinyl bigots are of the technical specs of
their own favorite technology. It's there in the JAES.



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"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article .com,
wrote:
Unless they otherwise unobtainium, the novelty of LP-CD transfers will
wear off after approx 3 LPs. Especially if you subsequently hear a
real CD of the album.


That is true if one of the following circumstances exist.
1. Your TT gear sucks
2. You are near deaf
3. You are so consumed by anti analog biases that it takes over your
judgement.


So every LP sounds better than a CD of the same performance? Think your
anti digital bias has taken over your judgment. Or far more likely you
have never heard just how an LP degrades any audio signal.


Scott's anti-digital bias is near-legendary over in RAO. He seems to be
softening a little with his favorable comments about 24/96.


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wrote in message
oups.com...

Are you suggesting I haven't heard LPs?


I'm suggesting that you don't seem to be able to listen to LPs without
putting your rose-colored earmuffs on.


Can you say anything that makes sense?


Failing to do that is your speciatly, Scott.


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wrote:

Have you ever heard a SOTA LP on SOTA playback gear?


Can you give any examples of SOTA LPs?

--
Eiron.


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On Wed, 25 Oct 2006 19:15:16 +0100, Eiron wrote:

wrote:

Have you ever heard a SOTA LP on SOTA playback gear?


Can you give any examples of SOTA LPs?


Unfortunately they are pretty much all SOTA. :-(

d

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Don Pearce wrote:
On Wed, 25 Oct 2006 19:15:16 +0100, Eiron wrote:

wrote:

Have you ever heard a SOTA LP on SOTA playback gear?


Can you give any examples of SOTA LPs?


Unfortunately they are pretty much all SOTA. :-(

Why on earth are you chiming in on this subject. Didn't you make a big
enough fool of yourself last time you talked about this subject?


Scott

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Don Pearce wrote:
On 25 Oct 2006 12:49:38 -0700, wrote:


Don Pearce wrote:
On 25 Oct 2006 12:23:30 -0700,
wrote:


Don Pearce wrote:
On Wed, 25 Oct 2006 19:15:16 +0100, Eiron wrote:

wrote:

Have you ever heard a SOTA LP on SOTA playback gear?

Can you give any examples of SOTA LPs?

Unfortunately they are pretty much all SOTA. :-(

Why on earth are you chiming in on this subject. Didn't you make a big
enough fool of yourself last time you talked about this subject?


You're thinking of that Scott bloke


No. you were the fool who insisted that all LPs were mastered with
summed bass and HF roll off. Are you back to make some more ridiculous
claims?


Scott


I know how LPs are mastered


BAHAHAHA HAHAHA yeah right.

- I've done it myself.


Oh, perhaps you could tell us what titles you mastered so we can
evaluate your work?


Summing bass and
rolling off HF are just two of the things that are often done to LPs



How often? Wasn't that long ago you were insisting it was done on
*every LP ever made.* What tune are you singing now on the subject?


in order to produce playable vinyl. Obviously when there is
insufficient energy in either of these two regions to warrant it, it
won't be done. Didn't you know that?


Didn't you when you were claiming that every LP had this done to them?
Funny you would try to be so smug about something you just recently
learned.



On the other hand, neither of these is ever required for a CD. They
will accept full dynamic range in stereo over their entire frequency
range. Didn't you know that either, Scott?



Of course I knew that CDs don't require summed bass, rolled off HF or
compression to be properly mastered. It has it's own unique
requirements for best results. Bet you didn't know that.

Scott

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On 25 Oct 2006 13:33:51 -0700, wrote:


Don Pearce wrote:
On 25 Oct 2006 12:49:38 -0700,
wrote:


Don Pearce wrote:
On 25 Oct 2006 12:23:30 -0700,
wrote:


Don Pearce wrote:
On Wed, 25 Oct 2006 19:15:16 +0100, Eiron wrote:

wrote:

Have you ever heard a SOTA LP on SOTA playback gear?

Can you give any examples of SOTA LPs?

Unfortunately they are pretty much all SOTA. :-(

Why on earth are you chiming in on this subject. Didn't you make a big
enough fool of yourself last time you talked about this subject?


You're thinking of that Scott bloke


No. you were the fool who insisted that all LPs were mastered with
summed bass and HF roll off. Are you back to make some more ridiculous
claims?


Scott


I know how LPs are mastered


BAHAHAHA HAHAHA yeah right.

- I've done it myself.


Oh, perhaps you could tell us what titles you mastered so we can
evaluate your work?


Summing bass and
rolling off HF are just two of the things that are often done to LPs



How often? Wasn't that long ago you were insisting it was done on
*every LP ever made.* What tune are you singing now on the subject?


in order to produce playable vinyl. Obviously when there is
insufficient energy in either of these two regions to warrant it, it
won't be done. Didn't you know that?


Didn't you when you were claiming that every LP had this done to them?
Funny you would try to be so smug about something you just recently
learned.



On the other hand, neither of these is ever required for a CD. They
will accept full dynamic range in stereo over their entire frequency
range. Didn't you know that either, Scott?



Of course I knew that CDs don't require summed bass, rolled off HF or
compression to be properly mastered. It has it's own unique
requirements for best results. Bet you didn't know that.

Scott


Scott, you really are jolly petulant. Are you getting all the vitamins
and minerals you should? A poor diet can cause this, you know.

d

--
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

--
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Don Pearce wrote:
On 25 Oct 2006 13:33:51 -0700, wrote:


Don Pearce wrote:
On 25 Oct 2006 12:49:38 -0700,
wrote:


Don Pearce wrote:
On 25 Oct 2006 12:23:30 -0700,
wrote:


Don Pearce wrote:
On Wed, 25 Oct 2006 19:15:16 +0100, Eiron wrote:

wrote:

Have you ever heard a SOTA LP on SOTA playback gear?

Can you give any examples of SOTA LPs?

Unfortunately they are pretty much all SOTA. :-(

Why on earth are you chiming in on this subject. Didn't you make a big
enough fool of yourself last time you talked about this subject?


You're thinking of that Scott bloke


No. you were the fool who insisted that all LPs were mastered with
summed bass and HF roll off. Are you back to make some more ridiculous
claims?


Scott

I know how LPs are mastered


BAHAHAHA HAHAHA yeah right.

- I've done it myself.


Oh, perhaps you could tell us what titles you mastered so we can
evaluate your work?


Summing bass and
rolling off HF are just two of the things that are often done to LPs



How often? Wasn't that long ago you were insisting it was done on
*every LP ever made.* What tune are you singing now on the subject?


in order to produce playable vinyl. Obviously when there is
insufficient energy in either of these two regions to warrant it, it
won't be done. Didn't you know that?


Didn't you when you were claiming that every LP had this done to them?
Funny you would try to be so smug about something you just recently
learned.



On the other hand, neither of these is ever required for a CD. They
will accept full dynamic range in stereo over their entire frequency
range. Didn't you know that either, Scott?



Of course I knew that CDs don't require summed bass, rolled off HF or
compression to be properly mastered. It has it's own unique
requirements for best results. Bet you didn't know that.

Scott


Scott, you really are jolly petulant.


Just telling it like it is.


Are you getting all the vitamins
and minerals you should?



I think so.


A poor diet can cause this, you know.


A poor diet can lead to telling it like it is? Hmmm, Interesting excuse
for being full of it. I give you points for creativity on this one.
Your "healthy diet" made you say stupid things. That's funny.


Scott



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wrote in message
oups.com...

No. you were the fool who insisted that all LPs were mastered with
summed bass and HF roll off.


Not a foolish claim. Sunming the bass below 50-100 Hz or more is a pretty
good idea. Putting a HF rolloff helps save cutter heads from overheating
and makes the recording easier to track.

Are you back to make some more ridiculous claims?


Where is the first ridiculous claim?


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"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...
On 25 Oct 2006 13:33:51 -0700, wrote:


Don Pearce wrote:
On 25 Oct 2006 12:49:38 -0700,
wrote:


Don Pearce wrote:
On 25 Oct 2006 12:23:30 -0700,
wrote:


Don Pearce wrote:
On Wed, 25 Oct 2006 19:15:16 +0100, Eiron
wrote:

wrote:

Have you ever heard a SOTA LP on SOTA playback gear?

Can you give any examples of SOTA LPs?

Unfortunately they are pretty much all SOTA. :-(

Why on earth are you chiming in on this subject. Didn't you make a
big
enough fool of yourself last time you talked about this subject?


You're thinking of that Scott bloke


No. you were the fool who insisted that all LPs were mastered with
summed bass and HF roll off. Are you back to make some more ridiculous
claims?


Scott

I know how LPs are mastered


BAHAHAHA HAHAHA yeah right.

- I've done it myself.


Oh, perhaps you could tell us what titles you mastered so we can
evaluate your work?


Summing bass and
rolling off HF are just two of the things that are often done to LPs



How often? Wasn't that long ago you were insisting it was done on
*every LP ever made.* What tune are you singing now on the subject?


in order to produce playable vinyl. Obviously when there is
insufficient energy in either of these two regions to warrant it, it
won't be done. Didn't you know that?


Didn't you when you were claiming that every LP had this done to them?
Funny you would try to be so smug about something you just recently
learned.



On the other hand, neither of these is ever required for a CD. They
will accept full dynamic range in stereo over their entire frequency
range. Didn't you know that either, Scott?



Of course I knew that CDs don't require summed bass, rolled off HF or
compression to be properly mastered. It has it's own unique
requirements for best results. Bet you didn't know that.

Scott


Scott, you really are jolly petulant. Are you getting all the vitamins
and minerals you should? A poor diet can cause this, you know.


Watch out Don, if Scott gets really mad at you, he'll sue you in California
Superior Court like he sued me.

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.a...3aa68feada0cd5


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Arny Krueger wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...

No. you were the fool who insisted that all LPs were mastered with
summed bass and HF roll off.


Not a foolish claim.


Fair enough, more accurately it was an ignorant claim. But one can say
it is foolish to wilfully make such an ignorant claim.


Sunming the bass below 50-100 Hz or more is a pretty
good idea. Putting a HF rolloff helps save cutter heads from overheating
and makes the recording easier to track.


I am glad you are not cutting records.



Are you back to make some more ridiculous claims?


Where is the first ridiculous claim?



In fornt of your face. How did you miss it? Well, I doubt it was Don's
"first" ridiculous claim if we want to split hairs.


Scott

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wrote in message
oups.com...

Arny Krueger wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...

No. you were the fool who insisted that all LPs were mastered with
summed bass and HF roll off.


Not a foolish claim.


Fair enough, more accurately it was an ignorant claim. But one can say
it is foolish to wilfully make such an ignorant claim.


Sunming the bass below 50-100 Hz or more is a pretty
good idea. Putting a HF rolloff helps save cutter heads from overheating
and makes the recording easier to track.


I am glad you are not cutting records.


Not as glad as I am!

Are you back to make some more ridiculous claims?


Where is the first ridiculous claim?


In fornt of your face. How did you miss it? Well, I doubt it was Don's
"first" ridiculous claim if we want to split hairs.


I checked google for Don saying the text you quoted, and no instances were
found.




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On Wed, 25 Oct 2006 17:40:35 -0400, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

Watch out Don, if Scott gets really mad at you, he'll sue you in California
Superior Court like he sued me.

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.a...3aa68feada0cd5


I bet he looks great in his rubber gear!

d

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http://www.pearce.uk.com

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Default Vinyl to CD on a PC

Mr.T wrote:
"Geoff" wrote in message
...
Unless they otherwise unobtainium,


And there's the reason, a lot never made it to CD. Even some that
have made it to CD at some stage or other are difficult to obtain. I
expect that may gradually change as more music finds it's way onto
MP3 downloads. And whilst I would rather have a non compressed
format, a decent MP3 will be no worse than a vinyl transfer in most
cases.

the novelty of LP-CD transfers will wear off after approx 3 LPs.
Especially if you subsequently hear a real CD of the album.


I suspect your turntable/cartridge and record condition plays a large
part in your dissatisfaction though.


No.

geoff


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Geoff Geoff is offline
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Default Vinyl to CD on a PC

Richard Crowley wrote:
"Serge Auckland" wrote ...

I have deliberately avoided the argument as to whether even 16bit is
excessive for vinyl.........


Didn't think there was any argument?
Is ANY vinyl capable of SNR in excess of 16 bits?


Try 12 bits.

geoff


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Don Pearce Don Pearce is offline
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Default Vinyl to CD on a PC

On Thu, 26 Oct 2006 10:50:07 +1300, "Geoff"
wrote:

Richard Crowley wrote:
"Serge Auckland" wrote ...

I have deliberately avoided the argument as to whether even 16bit is
excessive for vinyl.........


Didn't think there was any argument?
Is ANY vinyl capable of SNR in excess of 16 bits?


Try 12 bits.

geoff


I've never seen a piece of vinyl that reached 12 bits. And I'm willing
to bet that nobody ever saw one that did on a second playing.

d

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http://www.pearce.uk.com

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