Hello, I'm looking for a mixer to use in conjuction with all my mic
pres, so far it looks like the only real candidates are the Lilo and
the Millenia. Both look good, although they, for me, are lacking in a
few areas of my needs (although they would probably work ok) I'm
really just wanted to compare and make sure I'm not missing any other
mixers of this sort. I'm really looking for these specs:
Minimum 16 channel
100mm faders
Minimum 6 aux (4 if other features were outstanding on the board)
4 buss (prefer 8)
and full monitor section and talkback.
Basically I'm wanting to make a "real" recording console out of my
pres. The lilo looks real good, but if you know of anything else,
please let me know.
Thanks
Aaron Householter
studio1117

Aaron Householter wrote:
Hello, I'm looking for a mixer to use in conjuction with all my mic
pres, so far it looks like the only real candidates are the Lilo and
the Millenia. Both look good, although they, for me, are lacking in a
few areas of my needs (although they would probably work ok) I'm
really just wanted to compare and make sure I'm not missing any other
mixers of this sort. I'm really looking for these specs:
Minimum 16 channel
100mm faders
Minimum 6 aux (4 if other features were outstanding on the board)
4 buss (prefer 8)
and full monitor section and talkback.

I believe the Millennia does meet that. It has connectors for external
faders. I think they sell faders packs, but you should be able to roll
your own. And those connectors will allow you to also remotely control
solo and mute. Correct me if I am wrong, John.

It does have just 4 auxes. And you only get full aux access on the mono
mic input channels. The stereo line input modules have aux 3 and 4 ganged
on a stereo send.

It is 4 buss.

I am not sure what you mean by full monitor section---do you mean like an
in-line console, or just a monitor section with tones, tape returns etc.
Because this it has.

As for talkback---I think it has the nicest talkback system I know.

But you do know what the cost is once you start to put all these options
together...


Rob R.

Aaron Householter wrote:
Hello, I'm looking for a mixer to use in conjuction with all my mic
pres, so far it looks like the only real candidates are the Lilo and
the Millenia. Both look good, although they, for me, are lacking in a
few areas of my needs (although they would probably work ok) I'm
really just wanted to compare and make sure I'm not missing any other
mixers of this sort. I'm really looking for these specs:
Minimum 16 channel
100mm faders
Minimum 6 aux (4 if other features were outstanding on the board)
4 buss (prefer 8)
and full monitor section and talkback.

I believe the Millennia does meet that. It has connectors for external
faders. I think they sell faders packs, but you should be able to roll
your own. And those connectors will allow you to also remotely control
solo and mute. Correct me if I am wrong, John.

It does have just 4 auxes. And you only get full aux access on the mono
mic input channels. The stereo line input modules have aux 3 and 4 ganged
on a stereo send.

It is 4 buss.

I am not sure what you mean by full monitor section---do you mean like an
in-line console, or just a monitor section with tones, tape returns etc.
Because this it has.

As for talkback---I think it has the nicest talkback system I know.

But you do know what the cost is once you start to put all these options
together...


Rob R.

In article writes:

Hello, I'm looking for a mixer to use in conjuction with all my mic
pres, so far it looks like the only real candidates are the Lilo and
the Millenia.

If all (or most) of your mic preamps are of really good quality, then
this sort of thing is the right approach. But most people who have
really good preamps use them direct to tracks (sans mixer) and dream
of a line level mixer for mixing the track playback.

It depends on how much of a mixer you want. If what you want to do is
build a full fledged console with a bus structure, and be able to use
external preamps and external equalizers, and make it so that anything
is patchable to any channel, then such a mixer as the ones you're
looking at seem to be where it's at.

Basically I'm wanting to make a "real" recording console out of my
pres. The lilo looks real good

That's what I was thinking. It has some pretty tricky switching that
makes it more versatile than it would appear from looking at the front
panel. You should download the block diagram (it's on the web site)
and sort it out, or maybe give Vince a call. He gave me a good tour of
the mixer at AES. One nice thing the LiLo offers is a balanced insert
point on each channel. While you can live without this by patching an
outboard unit between the source and the mixer input, if you really
want to make a "console" you might want to permanently connect
equalizers (either the same type or an assortment) to the channels so
they'll always be ready. If you have a particular favorite combination
of mic preamp, equalizer, and compressor, that could become a "channel
strip" of a certain flavor, and another combination could be a channel
of a different flavor.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

In article writes:

Hello, I'm looking for a mixer to use in conjuction with all my mic
pres, so far it looks like the only real candidates are the Lilo and
the Millenia.

If all (or most) of your mic preamps are of really good quality, then
this sort of thing is the right approach. But most people who have
really good preamps use them direct to tracks (sans mixer) and dream
of a line level mixer for mixing the track playback.

It depends on how much of a mixer you want. If what you want to do is
build a full fledged console with a bus structure, and be able to use
external preamps and external equalizers, and make it so that anything
is patchable to any channel, then such a mixer as the ones you're
looking at seem to be where it's at.

Basically I'm wanting to make a "real" recording console out of my
pres. The lilo looks real good

That's what I was thinking. It has some pretty tricky switching that
makes it more versatile than it would appear from looking at the front
panel. You should download the block diagram (it's on the web site)
and sort it out, or maybe give Vince a call. He gave me a good tour of
the mixer at AES. One nice thing the LiLo offers is a balanced insert
point on each channel. While you can live without this by patching an
outboard unit between the source and the mixer input, if you really
want to make a "console" you might want to permanently connect
equalizers (either the same type or an assortment) to the channels so
they'll always be ready. If you have a particular favorite combination
of mic preamp, equalizer, and compressor, that could become a "channel
strip" of a certain flavor, and another combination could be a channel
of a different flavor.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

Yeah guys, these do seem like the best choices. I kind of prefer the
Lilo since it appears more "ready built" for my setup, but the people
at Millenia were nice enough to send me a manual on all the units and
it looks very impressive as well. I've also seen some pictures of a
"mixer" that somebody made from the mllenia modules. Actually I'm not
very current on the Millenia prices, so that may make a huge
difference to me as well.

Ultimately i'd like to track my pres into an a/d(perhaps a comp in
line) monitor through the console/ millenia and then re-patch into the
line inputs of my pres and use these as EQ's and of course insert
comps etc.for mixdown. I know this sounds very basic, but I was
suprised how few units were out there to do this sort of thing
(besides full blown consoles).

When I mention the full master section, I simply meant that it would
have osc., talkback, perhaps selectors for large/small monitors, aux
returns etc.

I also see where Purple audio is starting to make something as well,
anybody know about that unit?
Thanks
Aaron Householter
studio1117

Yeah guys, these do seem like the best choices. I kind of prefer the
Lilo since it appears more "ready built" for my setup, but the people
at Millenia were nice enough to send me a manual on all the units and
it looks very impressive as well. I've also seen some pictures of a
"mixer" that somebody made from the mllenia modules. Actually I'm not
very current on the Millenia prices, so that may make a huge
difference to me as well.

Ultimately i'd like to track my pres into an a/d(perhaps a comp in
line) monitor through the console/ millenia and then re-patch into the
line inputs of my pres and use these as EQ's and of course insert
comps etc.for mixdown. I know this sounds very basic, but I was
suprised how few units were out there to do this sort of thing
(besides full blown consoles).

When I mention the full master section, I simply meant that it would
have osc., talkback, perhaps selectors for large/small monitors, aux
returns etc.

I also see where Purple audio is starting to make something as well,
anybody know about that unit?
Thanks
Aaron Householter
studio1117

Aaron Householter wrote:

Ultimately i'd like to track my pres into an a/d(perhaps a comp in
line) monitor through the console/ millenia and then re-patch into the
line inputs of my pres and use these as EQ's and of course insert
comps etc.for mixdown. I know this sounds very basic, but I was
suprised how few units were out there to do this sort of thing
(besides full blown consoles).

The Millennia does not have inserts. For inserting, you must patch
between the recorder and the inputs of the mixer.

When I mention the full master section, I simply meant that it would
have osc., talkback, perhaps selectors for large/small monitors, aux
returns etc.

Yes to the osc. The talkback is incorporated into the power supply. But
it is simply a mic preamp/poweramp that you plug a mic and passive speaker
into. The talk back switch actually turns the amp on and off, so that
during tracking you don't have any noise at all coming through the
speaker. If you buy the remote talkback option, I believe it also mutes
the mixer monitor playback or something.

The Millennia has no output selectors. And the aux returns can not be
selected in the monitor section. However, seeing as it has two tape
returns (you can select between master mix, or tape A or B) perhaps that
is what you want. The aux returns are part of the mix system. ie there
is a module that gives you access to the 4 sends and returns with quite
a bit of panning control.

If you have more specific questions about the Millennia, feel free to
email me since I have a fair bit of experience with it.

Rob

Aaron Householter wrote:

Ultimately i'd like to track my pres into an a/d(perhaps a comp in
line) monitor through the console/ millenia and then re-patch into the
line inputs of my pres and use these as EQ's and of course insert
comps etc.for mixdown. I know this sounds very basic, but I was
suprised how few units were out there to do this sort of thing
(besides full blown consoles).

The Millennia does not have inserts. For inserting, you must patch
between the recorder and the inputs of the mixer.

When I mention the full master section, I simply meant that it would
have osc., talkback, perhaps selectors for large/small monitors, aux
returns etc.

Yes to the osc. The talkback is incorporated into the power supply. But
it is simply a mic preamp/poweramp that you plug a mic and passive speaker
into. The talk back switch actually turns the amp on and off, so that
during tracking you don't have any noise at all coming through the
speaker. If you buy the remote talkback option, I believe it also mutes
the mixer monitor playback or something.

The Millennia has no output selectors. And the aux returns can not be
selected in the monitor section. However, seeing as it has two tape
returns (you can select between master mix, or tape A or B) perhaps that
is what you want. The aux returns are part of the mix system. ie there
is a module that gives you access to the 4 sends and returns with quite
a bit of panning control.

If you have more specific questions about the Millennia, feel free to
email me since I have a fair bit of experience with it.

Rob

Nautilus Master Technology is now also making a box, although I
think they only have an 8-channel model.

ADT also makes something like what you want. Brad at Transamerica
Audio Group is handling it. It's got VERY tight knobs in there, though.
They could probably also configure you a console with the BC3 modules
with no preamps or EQ, though.

I have not used either of these, although they both look nicely built.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Nautilus Master Technology is now also making a box, although I
think they only have an 8-channel model.

ADT also makes something like what you want. Brad at Transamerica
Audio Group is handling it. It's got VERY tight knobs in there, though.
They could probably also configure you a console with the BC3 modules
with no preamps or EQ, though.

I have not used either of these, although they both look nicely built.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

In article writes:

When I mention the full master section, I simply meant that it would
have osc., talkback, perhaps selectors for large/small monitors, aux
returns etc.

There are a number of units that do that (with exception of the
oscillator) from companies big and small. If the console of your
dreams doesn't have this, you can always add it. Used to be that
consoles were all custom made, sometimes based on modular parts, other
times built from scratch. Today it's a lot easier to get pretty much
what you want.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

In article writes:

When I mention the full master section, I simply meant that it would
have osc., talkback, perhaps selectors for large/small monitors, aux
returns etc.

There are a number of units that do that (with exception of the
oscillator) from companies big and small. If the console of your
dreams doesn't have this, you can always add it. Used to be that
consoles were all custom made, sometimes based on modular parts, other
times built from scratch. Today it's a lot easier to get pretty much
what you want.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

Minimum 16 channel
100mm faders
Minimum 6 aux (4 if other features were outstanding on the board)
4 buss (prefer 8)
and full monitor section and talkback.
Basically I'm wanting to make a "real" recording console out of my
pres. The lilo looks real good, but if you know of anything else,


Although my required specs are different than yours, my main purpose
in attending AES this year was to check out the variety of line mixers
available. I agree with the general consensus that if you are looking
for a full featured mixer that can function as a replacement for a
full size console, the LiLo is in a class of its own; it gets my vote
for "product of the year" or any similar award. Any studio with a big
collection of outboard gear can now purchase a single product to fully
integrate all of the various outboard units into a single, coordinated
recording system. I really don't think that the industry press have
responded with the level of attention due this remarkable piece of
equipment.

On the other hand, I was looking for line mixers that are designed for
rack mounting, to facilitate use on location. A few mixers from this
category might fit your general requirements. The 8x2 Aurora GTM-822
and API 7800/8200 are both designed to be easily expanded to 16x2,
24x2, etc., and they both have external fader connectionss pre-wired
for easy implementation.

Chandler and Tonelux both introduced modular line mixers with 16x2
configurations as standard. The Tonelux unit has 4 Aux Sends and the
option of 5.1 surround mixing. The Chandler mini-TG mixer is more
straightforward, with limited features, but Chandler also offers a
"Modular Frame Mixer" that is intended to house a variety of processor
modules and these two mixers together would make a powerful system.

Other high end line mixers were shown by Nautilus and a German
company, ADT. To make things a little confusing, there were several
"summing boxes" introduced this year, and many of them have enough
features to qualify as line mixers, as opposed to a pure summing unit
like the Folcrom. The Inner Tube Audio Sumthang, Phoenix Nicerizer,
Tube Tech SSA, and the SPL Mixdream were just some of the summing
boxes that offered some of the features usually associated with line
mixers. Other units that either weren't at the show, or have been
around for a while include the Purple Audio Super 8 and Manley 16x2.
Then there are several rack mount mixers that include mic preamps, but
these can usually be used as line mixers as well: Crane Song Spider,
API 3124, ATI 8x2, etc.

Although matching your exact specs to one of these can be a challenge,
the biggest problem is that we have so many choices that it can be
hard to make a selection. Compared to just a few years ago, the
current selection is incredible.

Steve

Minimum 16 channel
100mm faders
Minimum 6 aux (4 if other features were outstanding on the board)
4 buss (prefer 8)
and full monitor section and talkback.
Basically I'm wanting to make a "real" recording console out of my
pres. The lilo looks real good, but if you know of anything else,


Although my required specs are different than yours, my main purpose
in attending AES this year was to check out the variety of line mixers
available. I agree with the general consensus that if you are looking
for a full featured mixer that can function as a replacement for a
full size console, the LiLo is in a class of its own; it gets my vote
for "product of the year" or any similar award. Any studio with a big
collection of outboard gear can now purchase a single product to fully
integrate all of the various outboard units into a single, coordinated
recording system. I really don't think that the industry press have
responded with the level of attention due this remarkable piece of
equipment.

On the other hand, I was looking for line mixers that are designed for
rack mounting, to facilitate use on location. A few mixers from this
category might fit your general requirements. The 8x2 Aurora GTM-822
and API 7800/8200 are both designed to be easily expanded to 16x2,
24x2, etc., and they both have external fader connectionss pre-wired
for easy implementation.

Chandler and Tonelux both introduced modular line mixers with 16x2
configurations as standard. The Tonelux unit has 4 Aux Sends and the
option of 5.1 surround mixing. The Chandler mini-TG mixer is more
straightforward, with limited features, but Chandler also offers a
"Modular Frame Mixer" that is intended to house a variety of processor
modules and these two mixers together would make a powerful system.

Other high end line mixers were shown by Nautilus and a German
company, ADT. To make things a little confusing, there were several
"summing boxes" introduced this year, and many of them have enough
features to qualify as line mixers, as opposed to a pure summing unit
like the Folcrom. The Inner Tube Audio Sumthang, Phoenix Nicerizer,
Tube Tech SSA, and the SPL Mixdream were just some of the summing
boxes that offered some of the features usually associated with line
mixers. Other units that either weren't at the show, or have been
around for a while include the Purple Audio Super 8 and Manley 16x2.
Then there are several rack mount mixers that include mic preamps, but
these can usually be used as line mixers as well: Crane Song Spider,
API 3124, ATI 8x2, etc.

Although matching your exact specs to one of these can be a challenge,
the biggest problem is that we have so many choices that it can be
hard to make a selection. Compared to just a few years ago, the
current selection is incredible.

Steve

In article writes:

I agree with the general consensus that if you are looking
for a full featured mixer that can function as a replacement for a
full size console, the LiLo is in a class of its own; it gets my vote
for "product of the year" or any similar award. Any studio with a big
collection of outboard gear can now purchase a single product to fully
integrate all of the various outboard units into a single, coordinated
recording system. I really don't think that the industry press have
responded with the level of attention due this remarkable piece of
equipment.

Well that's an easy one. The industry press writes for the portion of
the industry that pays their bills, which, in today's version of "the
industry" is selling off your old outboard gear to the cottage
portion of the industry who are looking for that piece of the holy
grail that will make their recordings sound like those they admire.
Today, very few studios have enough outboard gear to warrant
integrating them with a console like the LiLo - hopefully there are
enough of those folks so that Vince can make a little money from his
efforts.

On the other hand, I was looking for line mixers that are designed for
rack mounting, to facilitate use on location.

I guess I'd have to watch you work in order to understand why you have
this requirement. I find that a vertical work surface for mixing is a
real pain to use. In addition, a vertical rack of gear, unless you
have another one to match, makes it difficult to set up an
acoustically symmetrical temporary monitoring position. If I'm
actually going to mix, I want something that looks and feels like a
mixing console (like the LiLo) and not a rack mounted set of knobs
that I find difficult to grab quickly. If I'm not actually going to
actively mix, but just want routing and a way to check mics, then I
don't need something of the API or Tonelux quality - a Mackie and a
patchbay will do.

Although matching your exact specs to one of these can be a challenge,
the biggest problem is that we have so many choices that it can be
hard to make a selection. Compared to just a few years ago, the
current selection is incredible.

Ain't life grand? You're obviously putting a lot of thought into this,
and I've taken note of your observations. To me, who's not looking to
make a choice, but just looking at trends, they all looked about the
same to me. I understand the function and now all I have to do is fill
in the "need" blank.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

In article writes:

I agree with the general consensus that if you are looking
for a full featured mixer that can function as a replacement for a
full size console, the LiLo is in a class of its own; it gets my vote
for "product of the year" or any similar award. Any studio with a big
collection of outboard gear can now purchase a single product to fully
integrate all of the various outboard units into a single, coordinated
recording system. I really don't think that the industry press have
responded with the level of attention due this remarkable piece of
equipment.

Well that's an easy one. The industry press writes for the portion of
the industry that pays their bills, which, in today's version of "the
industry" is selling off your old outboard gear to the cottage
portion of the industry who are looking for that piece of the holy
grail that will make their recordings sound like those they admire.
Today, very few studios have enough outboard gear to warrant
integrating them with a console like the LiLo - hopefully there are
enough of those folks so that Vince can make a little money from his
efforts.

On the other hand, I was looking for line mixers that are designed for
rack mounting, to facilitate use on location.

I guess I'd have to watch you work in order to understand why you have
this requirement. I find that a vertical work surface for mixing is a
real pain to use. In addition, a vertical rack of gear, unless you
have another one to match, makes it difficult to set up an
acoustically symmetrical temporary monitoring position. If I'm
actually going to mix, I want something that looks and feels like a
mixing console (like the LiLo) and not a rack mounted set of knobs
that I find difficult to grab quickly. If I'm not actually going to
actively mix, but just want routing and a way to check mics, then I
don't need something of the API or Tonelux quality - a Mackie and a
patchbay will do.

Although matching your exact specs to one of these can be a challenge,
the biggest problem is that we have so many choices that it can be
hard to make a selection. Compared to just a few years ago, the
current selection is incredible.

Ain't life grand? You're obviously putting a lot of thought into this,
and I've taken note of your observations. To me, who's not looking to
make a choice, but just looking at trends, they all looked about the
same to me. I understand the function and now all I have to do is fill
in the "need" blank.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

I guess I'd have to watch you work in order to understand why you have
this requirement. I find that a vertical work surface for mixing is a
real pain to use. In addition, a vertical rack of gear, unless you
have another one to match, makes it difficult to set up an
acoustically symmetrical temporary monitoring position. If I'm
actually going to mix, I want something that looks and feels like a
mixing console (like the LiLo) and not a rack mounted set of knobs
that I find difficult to grab quickly. If I'm not actually going to
actively mix, but just want routing and a way to check mics, then I
don't need something of the API or Tonelux quality - a Mackie and a
patchbay will do.

Although matching your exact specs to one of these can be a challenge,
the biggest problem is that we have so many choices that it can be
hard to make a selection. Compared to just a few years ago, the
current selection is incredible.

Ain't life grand? You're obviously putting a lot of thought into this,
and I've taken note of your observations. To me, who's not looking to
make a choice, but just looking at trends, they all looked about the
same to me. I understand the function and now all I have to do is fill
in the "need" blank.

My situation isn't common or obvious, so its not surprising that it
may seem a little strange. It comes down to two different work tasks
that I want to accomplish with one product. On location, I
occasionally need to record direct to stereo, and about half the time
that involves a couple of spots in addition to the stereo pair. Thats
the reason for the rack mount mixer on location. We're talking
acoustic music, either jazz or classical, so not a whole lot of fader
moves, just some basic 8x2 (or less, usually less...) summing.

Task #2. Back at the studio. When I record to multi-track, instead
of "live to 2", I eventually need to create a stereo mix. Once again,
we're never talking more than 8ch, as I use an 8ch Genex recorder, and
don't use effects sends. So I need an 8x2 mixer to sum multichannel
mixes to stereo. (FYI, I almost always track to DSD, then come out of
the Genex analog outputs, sum to stereo in analog, with some
occasional minor analog processing, on either side of the mixer,
depending on whether it was channel processing or mix bus processing,
then go to whatever 2 track recording format is called for, with one
generation of A to D(pcm) conversion. Just to make it fun, this is
all done in real time, no intermediate storage. Off the hard disk in
DSD format, thru the Genex converters, out of the Genex in analog, sum
and processed in analog and converted to PCM and into CD, DAt or
whatever, all in one shot.)

So, those are my two uses for the mixer: summing to 2 on location for
stereo recording, and mixing 8x2 back in the studio when I have
recorded multi-track in the field. For me, these uses justify API
quality, and are well served by a little rack mount format. Although
a little fader pack will eventually be acquired for use in the studio,
I think.

Make any more sense now, or are my methods hopeless?

steve

I guess I'd have to watch you work in order to understand why you have
this requirement. I find that a vertical work surface for mixing is a
real pain to use. In addition, a vertical rack of gear, unless you
have another one to match, makes it difficult to set up an
acoustically symmetrical temporary monitoring position. If I'm
actually going to mix, I want something that looks and feels like a
mixing console (like the LiLo) and not a rack mounted set of knobs
that I find difficult to grab quickly. If I'm not actually going to
actively mix, but just want routing and a way to check mics, then I
don't need something of the API or Tonelux quality - a Mackie and a
patchbay will do.

Although matching your exact specs to one of these can be a challenge,
the biggest problem is that we have so many choices that it can be
hard to make a selection. Compared to just a few years ago, the
current selection is incredible.

Ain't life grand? You're obviously putting a lot of thought into this,
and I've taken note of your observations. To me, who's not looking to
make a choice, but just looking at trends, they all looked about the
same to me. I understand the function and now all I have to do is fill
in the "need" blank.

My situation isn't common or obvious, so its not surprising that it
may seem a little strange. It comes down to two different work tasks
that I want to accomplish with one product. On location, I
occasionally need to record direct to stereo, and about half the time
that involves a couple of spots in addition to the stereo pair. Thats
the reason for the rack mount mixer on location. We're talking
acoustic music, either jazz or classical, so not a whole lot of fader
moves, just some basic 8x2 (or less, usually less...) summing.

Task #2. Back at the studio. When I record to multi-track, instead
of "live to 2", I eventually need to create a stereo mix. Once again,
we're never talking more than 8ch, as I use an 8ch Genex recorder, and
don't use effects sends. So I need an 8x2 mixer to sum multichannel
mixes to stereo. (FYI, I almost always track to DSD, then come out of
the Genex analog outputs, sum to stereo in analog, with some
occasional minor analog processing, on either side of the mixer,
depending on whether it was channel processing or mix bus processing,
then go to whatever 2 track recording format is called for, with one
generation of A to D(pcm) conversion. Just to make it fun, this is
all done in real time, no intermediate storage. Off the hard disk in
DSD format, thru the Genex converters, out of the Genex in analog, sum
and processed in analog and converted to PCM and into CD, DAt or
whatever, all in one shot.)

So, those are my two uses for the mixer: summing to 2 on location for
stereo recording, and mixing 8x2 back in the studio when I have
recorded multi-track in the field. For me, these uses justify API
quality, and are well served by a little rack mount format. Although
a little fader pack will eventually be acquired for use in the studio,
I think.

Make any more sense now, or are my methods hopeless?

steve

In article writes:

stereo recording, and mixing 8x2 back in the studio when I have
recorded multi-track in the field. For me, these uses justify API
quality, and are well served by a little rack mount format. Although
a little fader pack will eventually be acquired for use in the studio,
I think.

Make any more sense now, or are my methods hopeless?

It makes perfectly good sense, but there are only a handful working
like you, which justifies a handful of high grade manufacturers making
a small number of fairly expensive products. I think you know enough
to pick the one you like best, and you apparently aren't looking for a
"what's the cheapest" solution. The only problem is that you aren't
going to get more than one or three opinions of any single product so
you'll pretty much have to rely on your own judgement, gut feeling,
and a careful analysis of the features and your requirements to make a
choice. The LiLo is probably more than you need.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

In article writes:

stereo recording, and mixing 8x2 back in the studio when I have
recorded multi-track in the field. For me, these uses justify API
quality, and are well served by a little rack mount format. Although
a little fader pack will eventually be acquired for use in the studio,
I think.

Make any more sense now, or are my methods hopeless?

It makes perfectly good sense, but there are only a handful working
like you, which justifies a handful of high grade manufacturers making
a small number of fairly expensive products. I think you know enough
to pick the one you like best, and you apparently aren't looking for a
"what's the cheapest" solution. The only problem is that you aren't
going to get more than one or three opinions of any single product so
you'll pretty much have to rely on your own judgement, gut feeling,
and a careful analysis of the features and your requirements to make a
choice. The LiLo is probably more than you need.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

hollywood_steve wrote:


My situation isn't common or obvious, so its not surprising that it
may seem a little strange. It comes down to two different work tasks
that I want to accomplish with one product. On location, I
occasionally need to record direct to stereo, and about half the time
that involves a couple of spots in addition to the stereo pair. Thats
the reason for the rack mount mixer on location. We're talking
acoustic music, either jazz or classical, so not a whole lot of fader
moves, just some basic 8x2 (or less, usually less...) summing.

Task #2. Back at the studio. When I record to multi-track, instead
of "live to 2", I eventually need to create a stereo mix. Once again,
we're never talking more than 8ch, as I use an 8ch Genex recorder, and
don't use effects sends. So I need an 8x2 mixer to sum multichannel
mixes to stereo.


Sounds like a perfect application for a Millenia or a Cranesong.

hollywood_steve wrote:


My situation isn't common or obvious, so its not surprising that it
may seem a little strange. It comes down to two different work tasks
that I want to accomplish with one product. On location, I
occasionally need to record direct to stereo, and about half the time
that involves a couple of spots in addition to the stereo pair. Thats
the reason for the rack mount mixer on location. We're talking
acoustic music, either jazz or classical, so not a whole lot of fader
moves, just some basic 8x2 (or less, usually less...) summing.

Task #2. Back at the studio. When I record to multi-track, instead
of "live to 2", I eventually need to create a stereo mix. Once again,
we're never talking more than 8ch, as I use an 8ch Genex recorder, and
don't use effects sends. So I need an 8x2 mixer to sum multichannel
mixes to stereo.


Sounds like a perfect application for a Millenia or a Cranesong.

you'll pretty much have to rely on your own judgement, gut feeling,
and a careful analysis of the features and your requirements to make a
choice.

Which is why I've been asking endless questions to manufacuturers and a few
end users about this topic for so long. But now its purchase time!

The LiLo is probably more than you need.


True, I probably don't use enough outboard gear to warrant it any more. And
it doesn't work as a portable solution, either. (my definition of portable,
I realize some guys carry consoles on location.....) Which is too bad as it
gets my vote as best mixing product introduction in many years. Vince did
hint at the possibility of a future product consisting of the LiLo master
section and maybe 8ea of the channel strips, (sans faders) in a rackmount
enclosure. But regardless if this was a serious proposal or just idle show
chat, I need something now, not two years from now.

Sounds like a perfect application for a Millenia or a Cranesong.


And there's a Millennia on Ebay right now! But I gave a LONG look to
Millennia's mixer a while ago, and while it is of exceptional quality, it
just isn't right for me; nothing to do with performance, more a question of
work methods. But Crane Song is one I really didn't explore other than to
disqualify it due to its inclusion of mic preamps. If I could purchase a
Spider without mic preamps for $1k less than the standard model, I can't
think of any reason not to go for it.

So I'm down to my last day to make a decision and its still a 3 way tie
between API 7800+8200, Aurora GTM-822 & Chandler Mini-TG. Two of these are
still working on the very first production units, so there are no existing
users available for questioning. But the API combo is up and running in
many studios and I'm in contact today with some owners.

I guess I should be glad that I won't be able to afford any more gear for a
while; this has taken up way too much time.

steve

you'll pretty much have to rely on your own judgement, gut feeling,
and a careful analysis of the features and your requirements to make a
choice.

Which is why I've been asking endless questions to manufacuturers and a few
end users about this topic for so long. But now its purchase time!

The LiLo is probably more than you need.


True, I probably don't use enough outboard gear to warrant it any more. And
it doesn't work as a portable solution, either. (my definition of portable,
I realize some guys carry consoles on location.....) Which is too bad as it
gets my vote as best mixing product introduction in many years. Vince did
hint at the possibility of a future product consisting of the LiLo master
section and maybe 8ea of the channel strips, (sans faders) in a rackmount
enclosure. But regardless if this was a serious proposal or just idle show
chat, I need something now, not two years from now.

Sounds like a perfect application for a Millenia or a Cranesong.


And there's a Millennia on Ebay right now! But I gave a LONG look to
Millennia's mixer a while ago, and while it is of exceptional quality, it
just isn't right for me; nothing to do with performance, more a question of
work methods. But Crane Song is one I really didn't explore other than to
disqualify it due to its inclusion of mic preamps. If I could purchase a
Spider without mic preamps for $1k less than the standard model, I can't
think of any reason not to go for it.

So I'm down to my last day to make a decision and its still a 3 way tie
between API 7800+8200, Aurora GTM-822 & Chandler Mini-TG. Two of these are
still working on the very first production units, so there are no existing
users available for questioning. But the API combo is up and running in
many studios and I'm in contact today with some owners.

I guess I should be glad that I won't be able to afford any more gear for a
while; this has taken up way too much time.

steve

On 19 Nov 2004 18:31:01 -0800, (hollywood_steve) wrote:

----------------8--------------------
Although matching your exact specs to one of these can be a challenge,
the biggest problem is that we have so many choices that it can be
hard to make a selection. Compared to just a few years ago, the
current selection is incredible.

Steve


Yes, it seems to me that things are getring better even at the analog
side of the equipment. A week ago I've made a recording of a local
event (male a capella sextet singing alone and later accompanied by a
Tamburica ( "Tambouritza", an abt. mandolin-like sounding instrument)
orchestra. I hooked my Sony MZ-NH1 Sony HiMD, PCM mode, to a Midas
Venice, I think it has been the 240, mixing console. The microphones
were all Shure condensers.
After transfering the abt. 1h:25 min recording recording to the PC
(via USB 1.1. it took about an hour for the transfer) I've found that
the sound was very good indeed. Albeit the setup has been for the live
performance, not for recording, so I'd levelled and panned the inputs
differently, I find that there is a very good S/N ratio, the recording
is very quiet, even looking at the spectrogram, and the distorsion is
also low. Here and there there are LF pops which can be manually
spot-filtered out. Other of a single loud event where the input seems
to be nearly overloaded -- a mid-frequency cracling, not much
pronounced at all -- the entire concert has been recorded properly.

I find the Midas Venice a very fine location mixing console.

Edi Zubovic, Crikvenica, Croatia

On 19 Nov 2004 18:31:01 -0800, (hollywood_steve) wrote:

----------------8--------------------
Although matching your exact specs to one of these can be a challenge,
the biggest problem is that we have so many choices that it can be
hard to make a selection. Compared to just a few years ago, the
current selection is incredible.

Steve


Yes, it seems to me that things are getring better even at the analog
side of the equipment. A week ago I've made a recording of a local
event (male a capella sextet singing alone and later accompanied by a
Tamburica ( "Tambouritza", an abt. mandolin-like sounding instrument)
orchestra. I hooked my Sony MZ-NH1 Sony HiMD, PCM mode, to a Midas
Venice, I think it has been the 240, mixing console. The microphones
were all Shure condensers.
After transfering the abt. 1h:25 min recording recording to the PC
(via USB 1.1. it took about an hour for the transfer) I've found that
the sound was very good indeed. Albeit the setup has been for the live
performance, not for recording, so I'd levelled and panned the inputs
differently, I find that there is a very good S/N ratio, the recording
is very quiet, even looking at the spectrogram, and the distorsion is
also low. Here and there there are LF pops which can be manually
spot-filtered out. Other of a single loud event where the input seems
to be nearly overloaded -- a mid-frequency cracling, not much
pronounced at all -- the entire concert has been recorded properly.

I find the Midas Venice a very fine location mixing console.

Edi Zubovic, Crikvenica, Croatia

A week ago I've made a recording of a local
event (male a capella sextet singing alone and later accompanied by a
Tamburica ( "Tambouritza", an abt. mandolin-like sounding instrument)
orchestra. BRBR

I'm glad to hear Tamburica is still alive in Croatia. I'd heard it was
basically an imperiled art form. I've worked with a lot of American tamburica
bands, mostly based in Los Angeles (although they're more common in the
Midwest,) both live & in the studio. I love it.
Scott Fraser

"ScotFraser" wrote in message
...
A week ago I've made a recording of a local
event (male a capella sextet singing alone and later accompanied by a
Tamburica ( "Tambouritza", an abt. mandolin-like sounding instrument)
orchestra. BRBR

I'm glad to hear Tamburica is still alive in Croatia. I'd heard it was
basically an imperiled art form. I've worked with a lot of American
tamburica
bands, mostly based in Los Angeles (although they're more common in the
Midwest,) both live & in the studio. I love it.
Scott Fraser

The big revival of tamburica-based music occured in the early nineties,
after Croatia and Slovenia split from the rest of Yugoslavia. It was the
result of a political effort to establish almost an official, pure croatian
folk music form/style and, more importantly, filter out anything coming from
the other republics, which traditionally dominated the folk music scene in
Yugoslavia. Almost overnight, tamburica music was everywhere - from the
national radio and tv to remote village joints and tamburica bands and
orchestras mushroomed all around the continental part of the country. The
rest of folk music, staple diet of the masses there, was banned and
considered unpatriotic, especially serbian "turbo-folk". It all worked for a
while, but after several years, quite expectedly, people got fed up and
gradually returned to their old habits.

It was a ridiculous political effort, but it helped resurrect tamburica
music, which is now here to stay.

Predrag

On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 18:41:14 +0100, "Predrag Trpkov"
wrote:


"ScotFraser" wrote in message
...
A week ago I've made a recording of a local
event (male a capella sextet singing alone and later accompanied by a
Tamburica ( "Tambouritza", an abt. mandolin-like sounding instrument)
orchestra. BRBR

I'm glad to hear Tamburica is still alive in Croatia. I'd heard it was
basically an imperiled art form. I've worked with a lot of American
tamburica
bands, mostly based in Los Angeles (although they're more common in the
Midwest,) both live & in the studio. I love it.
Scott Fraser

The big revival of tamburica-based music occured in the early nineties,
after Croatia and Slovenia split from the rest of Yugoslavia. It was the
result of a political effort to establish almost an official, pure croatian
folk music form/style and, more importantly, filter out anything coming from
the other republics, which traditionally dominated the folk music scene in
Yugoslavia. Almost overnight, tamburica music was everywhere - from the
national radio and tv to remote village joints and tamburica bands and
orchestras mushroomed all around the continental part of the country. The
rest of folk music, staple diet of the masses there, was banned and
considered unpatriotic, especially serbian "turbo-folk". It all worked for a
while, but after several years, quite expectedly, people got fed up and
gradually returned to their old habits.

It was a ridiculous political effort, but it helped resurrect tamburica
music, which is now here to stay.

Predrag


(Hi, Predrag!) -- Well this what Predrag is saying is bacisally true
for small Tamburica bands, set up and trained in a jiffy in order to
possibly make some local hits and entertain people.
However, I'm far more fond of Tamburica orchestras, bigger units
consisting of tens of performers and which orchestras are performing
concert works, sometimes quite elaborate ones: classics, Jazz, old
style dance music, evergreens, film music -- you name it. It all
depends on how an arrangement is successful in adapting a piece to
this instrument and how skillful performers are to play it right. This
however requires a hard and dedicated work.
Such a tradition of tamburica orchestras, consisting almost always of
amateurs, has a long and uninterupted history. In Yugoslavia, there
were festivals of Tamburica music, numerous amateur and school
orchestras etc. In Croatia, this trend is getting even more popular.
Tamburica is considered in Croatia as national instrument and it has
never been put aside completely. Yes, in the wartime there has been an
animosity to Serbian music what can be understood; yielding, at the
other side, a boom of sometimes two-cent-worth small bands. And no,
that "Turbo-Folk" is by far not Serbian "National" music. It is
"national-alike" only, written by authors and it has sometimes a value
but mostly is, I must say, of a rock-bottom quality; made just to be
popular amogst "the masses" and to gain profits asap whenever
possible. The Croatian counter-part of such "Turbo-Folk" might be just
some above mmentioned small Tamburica bands, and they have always
been so. Such music is made for inns and barrelhouses to entertain the
drunk folks. OK. But Tamburica literature knows for magnificient works
which can be remembered as masterpieces. The same as with mandolin
works, Balalaika and Dombra in the Russia or Bouzouki in the Greece,
orchestras in Spain and Portugal...

A part of such a repertoire has been performed on the a.m. concert
evening and I enjoy hearing it now.

Edi Zubovic, Crikvenica, Croatia

hollywood_steve wrote:

I really don't think that the industry press have
responded with the level of attention due this remarkable piece of
equipment.

That's what I think about Speck's whole line. It doesn't seem to get the
focus it deserves on the basis of inspired design, quality production
and sensible pricing. Once in a while I'll read about some famous
keyboard guys on tour with superstars, and they're often combining their
key outputs with a Speck mixer. Other than that I hear almost most
nothing about this good stuff. I think Speck deserves a l'il mo'
respec'.

--
ha

hollywood_steve wrote:

If I could purchase a
Spider without mic preamps for $1k less than the standard model, I can't
think of any reason not to go for it.

I bet it'd cost Canesong more than that to build one without mic pres,
due to the ineconomies of small scale. If the rest of the unit fills
your needs, then you might just consider the pres a benefit that will
sometimes prove useful down the line. Folks say those are pretty good
pres.

--
ha

In article writes:

I really don't think that the industry press have
responded with the level of attention due this remarkable piece of
equipment.

That's what I think about Speck's whole line. It doesn't seem to get the
focus it deserves on the basis of inspired design, quality production
and sensible pricing.

Well, the industry press responds first to advertisers, second to
products that their reviewers use, and probably lastly, to the "buzz"
on newsgroups and forums. It also helps if it's software and inexepensive.

When enough people on r.a.p. bought RNCs, they stated to get reviewed
(but I suspect that buying an ad didn't hurt either).


--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

The big revival of tamburica-based music occured in the early nineties,
after Croatia and Slovenia split from the rest of Yugoslavia. It was the
result of a political effort to establish almost an official, pure croatian
folk music form/style and, more importantly, filter out anything coming from
the other republics, which traditionally dominated the folk music scene in
Yugoslavia.

How wonderful, when politics enters the arena of art. (Not!) Invariably
political art tends to be bad art & reactionary politics. In this case I'm sure
it never occurred to the politicians (Tudjman?) that there is no such thing as
a pure folk music, that all music borrows heavily from its neighbors, & that
political adversaries quite often are musical allies. Oh well...

Almost overnight, tamburica music was everywhere - from the
national radio and tv to remote village joints and tamburica bands and
orchestras mushroomed all around the continental part of the country. The
rest of folk music, staple diet of the masses there, was banned and
considered unpatriotic, especially serbian "turbo-folk".

Here in the United States, those Balkan music & dance lovers who didn't have a
personal ancestral stake in the conflict enjoyed & respected the folk music &
culture of all the regions of Yugoslavia rather equally.

It all worked for a
while, but after several years, quite expectedly, people got fed up and
gradually returned to their old habits.
It was a ridiculous political effort, but it helped resurrect tamburica
music, which is now here to stay.

Which is a wonderful thing. I was afraid it was becoming a museum piece,
preserved by amateur enthusiasts away from its origins.

Scott Fraser

- Well this what Predrag is saying is bacisally true
for small Tamburica bands, set up and trained in a jiffy in order to
possibly make some local hits and entertain people.
However, I'm far more fond of Tamburica orchestras,
snip
But Tamburica literature knows for magnificient works
which can be remembered as masterpieces. The same as with mandolin
works, Balalaika and Dombra in the Russia or Bouzouki in the Greece,
orchestras in Spain and Portugal...BRBR

Thanks for the background info, Edi. There's a wonderful Tamburica band in Los
Angeles, comprised of four brothers & a cousin or two, second generation
emigrees from Bucovina, who I've done a lot of recording with. I'll pass your
post on to them.
Best,
Scott Fraser

On 28 Nov 2004 06:29:41 GMT, (ScotFraser) wrote:

- Well this what Predrag is saying is bacisally true
for small Tamburica bands, set up and trained in a jiffy in order to
possibly make some local hits and entertain people.
However, I'm far more fond of Tamburica orchestras,
snip
But Tamburica literature knows for magnificient works
which can be remembered as masterpieces. The same as with mandolin
works, Balalaika and Dombra in the Russia or Bouzouki in the Greece,
orchestras in Spain and Portugal...BRBR

Thanks for the background info, Edi. There's a wonderful Tamburica band in Los
Angeles, comprised of four brothers & a cousin or two, second generation
emigrees from Bucovina, who I've done a lot of recording with. I'll pass your
post on to them.
Best,
Scott Fraser

Yes, I know there are many excellent Tamburica bands and orchestras in
the USA. It is wonderful how closely and passionately the ancestors of
emigrees, notwhitstanding whether form Croatia or elsewhere, are
following their nation's folklore. Here is a short note
as to my previous post -- I didn't want by far to show my affinities
towards big tamburica orchestras critizing at the same time the
fluorishing of small bands. There are fine and known small bands too;
I only wanted to make a parallel to popularization of small bands
given the times we went trough and about the fact, that the quality is
a result of dedication, love and hard work and not profits. I think
this is the same in other music genres too.

The best friend of mine is a conductor of a very fine local Tamburica
orchestra so this reflects my attitude too (and Predrag recorded and
mastered their anniversary CD .

Edi Zubovic, Crikvenica, Croatia