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#1
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Tell me about the subwoofer in a 5.1 setup!
I have some very basic questions for you:
1. When listening to 2 channel music in a 5.1 system, are the 2 (or 5) channels high pass filtered? 2. Is it any differnt when viewing films in surround? 3. Is the sub woofer output line or speaker level? I'm about to buy one of those cheap HT receivers and wants to know, in order not embarrass myself too much in front of the typical 18 yo salesboy... :-) (I have tried to look this up, but it's like drinking from a fire hose!) Per. |
#2
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In article , Per Stromgren
wrote: 1. When listening to 2 channel music in a 5.1 system, are the 2 (or 5) channels high pass filtered? Depends on the receiver, amp, pre-amp, or decoder. In general, the the 5 speakers are full range, and the dot-1 is a sub-woofer. The dot-1 is not a bass speaker, rather, it is an effects channel. Some hardware will ask if you have a subwoofer. If you do, they will route the bass to the effects channel so the main speakers do not have to reproduce the bass. If you don't have a subwoofer on the effects channel, some hardware can route the effects to the main speakers. The ideal setup is to have full range speakers that can reproduce deep bass for the main speakers, and still have a hefty subwoofer for the effects. If you have small speakes for your main right and left, it would work to have a 2nd subwoofer for these speakers, and a seperate effects subwoofer. 2. Is it any differnt when viewing films in surround? I find listening to music on my home theatre system to be annoying. I like my standard stereo system much better for music. Some people use their 5.1 system for music and like it very much. It all depends on your systems, your ears, and how you have it set up. 3. Is the sub woofer output line or speaker level? It can be either or. A receiver will typically have a line level output for the sub. Some receivers will have a full range power amp that is switchable between a sub and a 6th full range channel. It all depends on your hardware. I prefer the subwoofer amp to be in the subwoofer since they can be better matched to each other. -john- -- ================================================== ================== John A. Weeks III 952-432-2708 Newave Communications http://www.johnweeks.com ================================================== ================== |
#3
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On Wed, 08 Sep 2004 14:15:24 -0500, "John A. Weeks III"
wrote: In article , Per Stromgren wrote: 1. When listening to 2 channel music in a 5.1 system, are the 2 (or 5) channels high pass filtered? Depends on the receiver, amp, pre-amp, or decoder. In general, the the 5 speakers are full range, and the dot-1 is a sub-woofer. The dot-1 is not a bass speaker, rather, it is an effects channel. But not when playing stereo, surely? The ideal setup is to have full range speakers that can reproduce deep bass for the main speakers, and still have a hefty subwoofer for the effects. If you have small speakes for your main right and left, it would work to have a 2nd subwoofer for these speakers, and a seperate effects subwoofer. Hm... This system is mainly for watching TV, and the current set-up is a plain old 2 channel reciever plus book shelf speakers and a powered sub-woofer. We have very humble requirements for SPL and fidelity, would you think we could use the sub on the dot-1 output and shelf speakers as fronts? 2. Is it any differnt when viewing films in surround? I find listening to music on my home theatre system to be annoying. Well, I won't, most often. I have better stuff for that. But with a 5.1 system in the house, I guess it will be tempting to listeing Donald Fagen in a new format! 3. Is the sub woofer output line or speaker level? It can be either or. A receiver will typically have a line level output for the sub. Some receivers will have a full range power amp that is switchable between a sub and a 6th full range channel. It all depends on your hardware. Thanks for information, it was most helpful! Any hints on further reading? Per. |
#4
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On Wed, 08 Sep 2004 20:45:31 +0200, Per Stromgren
wrote: I have some very basic questions for you: 1. When listening to 2 channel music in a 5.1 system, are the 2 (or 5) channels high pass filtered? That is usually an option in the receiver (or DVD player) and your choice would depend on the particular speakers. Ideally, you would want full range speakers all the way around so that HP filtering is not required. 2. Is it any differnt when viewing films in surround? It can be but it does not have to be. 3. Is the sub woofer output line or speaker level? Generally, it is at line level since powered subs are assumed today. Kal |
#5
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"Per Stromgren" wrote in message
I have some very basic questions for you: 1. When listening to 2 channel music in a 5.1 system, are the 2 (or 5) channels high pass filtered? Generally, but not always. It is possible to have and use 5 full-range speakers. 2. Is it any different when viewing films in surround? Generally not. 3. Is the sub woofer output line or speaker level? A receiver's subwoofer output is almost always line level. After all, why up the price of the receiver further by putting in a subwoofer amp that might not even be used. |
#6
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"Per Stromgren" wrote in message
On Wed, 08 Sep 2004 14:15:24 -0500, "John A. Weeks III" wrote: In article , Per Stromgren wrote: 1. When listening to 2 channel music in a 5.1 system, are the 2 (or 5) channels high pass filtered? Depends on the receiver, amp, pre-amp, or decoder. In general, the the 5 speakers are full range, and the dot-1 is a sub-woofer. The more likely general case that the 5 speakers have limited bass response and are best described as satellite speakers for use with a subwoofer. Since the front-center speaker is roughly coincident with the viewing screen, it is particularly difficult to make full-range. The dot-1 is not a bass speaker, rather, it is an effects channel. Typically, it is called upon for both duties - bass, and bass effects. But not when playing stereo, surely? If the subwoofer is also active, why not? |
#7
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On Wed, 8 Sep 2004 16:42:07 -0400, "Arny Krueger"
wrote: The dot-1 is not a bass speaker, rather, it is an effects channel. Typically, it is called upon for both duties - bass, and bass effects. But not when playing stereo, surely? If the subwoofer is also active, why not? I was referring to the "effects" function, which is not a part of stereo. I would of course like it to be used in its woof-support-of-the-side-speakers function. Perhaphs I don't make myself very clear. Today I run my stereo speakers throgh a passive filter (100 Hz) in the subwoofer and want them to have a HP filter even with a 5.1 gizmo. What you are saying, Arny, is that this probably will be the case with the typical low end HT receiver. Per. |
#8
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"Per Stromgren" wrote in message
On Wed, 8 Sep 2004 16:42:07 -0400, "Arny Krueger" wrote: The dot-1 is not a bass speaker, rather, it is an effects channel. Typically, it is called upon for both duties - bass, and bass effects. But not when playing stereo, surely? If the subwoofer is also active, why not? I was referring to the "effects" function, which is not a part of stereo. The effects part of LFE refers to content recorded in the 0.1 channel of a surround-sound recording. The contents of the 0.1 channel of the recording is up to the producer. It can be nothing, it can be gratuitous, or it can be musically-related. When you play a stereo recording there is by definition no explicit content in the 0.1 channel. However, this does not mean that the LFE speaker goes dead. Instead, reproduce-side bass management features of the system use the LFE speaker as a true subwoofer. IOW the subwoofer reproduces sounds that might be reproduced by the L & R speaker, were they capable of handling deep bass. I would of course like it to be used in its woof-support-of-the-side-speakers function. That is what happens in a well-designed surround system. There are many paths to true knowledge, and so there are many ways to accomplish effective bass management. Perhaps I don't make myself very clear. Today I run my stereo speakers through a passive filter (100 Hz) in the subwoofer and want them to have a HP filter even with a 5.1 gizmo. You have many options. One is to carry your existing scheme forward. Just add 3 other speakers - center and surround. Set the bass management in your surround processor (receiver, etc) in a straight-forward way, which includes setting the surround processor so that the composite of your front main L & R speakers are "large" speakers. This means that they can handle serious bass Your existing passive crossover will continue to work as it does right now. What you are saying, Arny, is that this probably will be the case with the typical low end HT receiver. That, and the mid and high end ones as well. BTW, are you unclear about how bass management is set up and works? |
#9
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On Thu, 9 Sep 2004 07:13:43 -0400, "Arny Krueger"
wrote: Perhaps I don't make myself very clear. Today I run my stereo speakers through a passive filter (100 Hz) in the subwoofer and want them to have a HP filter even with a 5.1 gizmo. You have many options. One is to carry your existing scheme forward. Just add 3 other speakers - center and surround. Set the bass management in your surround processor (receiver, etc) in a straight-forward way, which includes setting the surround processor so that the composite of your front main L & R speakers are "large" speakers. This means that they can handle serious bass Your existing passive crossover will continue to work as it does right now. Aha, that easy! BTW, are you unclear about how bass management is set up and works? Yes (*), but that can wait until I actually buy one of those HT receivers. I guess even cheap ones comes with a manual. :-) Now I know enough to have the guts to step into a shop and buy one! Thanks! Per. *) But, if I am curious, what would be good words to google for? As I said, many of these HT terms will get you flooded, and most is ad copy for products. |
#10
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Per Stromgren wrote: BTW, are you unclear about how bass management is set up and works? Yes (*), but that can wait until I actually buy one of those HT receivers. I guess even cheap ones comes with a manual. :-) Now I know enough to have the guts to step into a shop and buy one! Thanks! Per. *) But, if I am curious, what would be good words to google for? As I said, many of these HT terms will get you flooded, and most is ad copy for products. As I recall, Yamaha used to put soft copies of their HT receivers online on their home site: http://www.yamaha.com/yec/index1.htm Download one and read up on how the bass management works for their receivers. It might help answer some of your questions. - Jeff |
#11
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Per Stromgren wrote:
I have some very basic questions for you: 1. When listening to 2 channel music in a 5.1 system, are the 2 (or 5) channels high pass filtered? They can be , and most commonly are, since most 5.1 systems employ 'small' front, center, and surround speakers. IN such systelm one sets the receiver (or in some instances, the DVD player) so that the bass is summed and sent to the sub (along with any LFE info in a surround mix). That goes for two-channel as well as surround sources...in this case the system is acting as a '2.1' system. However, you could also use full-range speakers -- msot commonly for the front left and right, in which case you might not want to have them high-passed for 2-channel listening. It's a matter of preference -- what sounds best to you. Some people who use 'large' front speakers still use them in '2.1' mode, sending the bass to the sub. Some others send the bass to the sub *and* also to the mains. 2. Is it any differnt when viewing films in surround? see above. It generally depends on how you have configured your receiver's 'speaker size' menu options. Wherever a receiver is told there's a 'small' speaker, it send the bass for that channel to the sub (or if the subwoofer is set to 'off' in the configuration menu , bass should be sent to the main left/right speakers) 3. Is the sub woofer output line or speaker level? Can be either. Line-level from a 'sub out' jack is by far the most common setup these days. Some subwoofers don't even have speaker-level connections any more, and the receiver's owner's manual may or may not include a diagram for speaker-level connection of the sub. -- -S. What am I, some kind of a _can't take a quote_, *poor sport of a f_ck*, who's whizzing out in flameless shame? |
#12
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Per Stromgren wrote:
On Thu, 9 Sep 2004 07:13:43 -0400, "Arny Krueger" wrote: Perhaps I don't make myself very clear. Today I run my stereo speakers through a passive filter (100 Hz) in the subwoofer and want them to have a HP filter even with a 5.1 gizmo. You have many options. One is to carry your existing scheme forward. Just add 3 other speakers - center and surround. Set the bass management in your surround processor (receiver, etc) in a straight-forward way, which includes setting the surround processor so that the composite of your front main L & R speakers are "large" speakers. This means that they can handle serious bass Your existing passive crossover will continue to work as it does right now. Aha, that easy! BTW, are you unclear about how bass management is set up and works? Yes (*), but that can wait until I actually buy one of those HT receivers. I guess even cheap ones comes with a manual. :-) You can even download a manual for many receivers as .pdf files before you buy it, from manufacterer;s websites -- usually in the 'support' or 'dowbnlaods' area. *) But, if I am curious, what would be good words to google for? As I said, many of these HT terms will get you flooded, and most is ad copy for products. the phrases "bass management" or 'Home theater setup" or "home theater faq" all return useful hits in google for me www.avsforum.com and www.hometheaterforum.com are good site for asking HT questions and both have 'newbie' areas, if I recall correctly. -- -S. What am I, some kind of a _can't take a quote_, *poor sport of a f_ck*, who's whizzing out in flameless shame? |
#13
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On Fri, 10 Sep 2004 02:58:25 GMT, Jeff Wiseman
wrote: As I recall, Yamaha used to put soft copies of their HT receivers online on their home site: http://www.yamaha.com/yec/index1.htm Yes! That was a good one. But, my goodness, they seem awfully complex beasts, these HT receivers, even to a EE engineer like myself. Did they put all these features in there because they can, rather than customers asking for them? Couldn't be, could it? :-) Download one and read up on how the bass management works for their receivers. It might help answer some of your questions. It did. Thank you! Per. |
#14
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On Fri, 10 Sep 2004 16:09:11 +0000 (UTC), Steven Sullivan
wrote: You can even download a manual for many receivers as .pdf files before you buy it, from manufacterer;s websites -- usually in the 'support' or 'dowbnlaods' area. Yes, Jeff gave me that advice too. Yamaha have rather good manuals, I must say. "Home theater faq" was the key search, silly of me not think about that one myself. Thanks for all the good advive. The salesboys can't fool me now! Per. |
#15
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Per Stromgren wrote: Yes! That was a good one. But, my goodness, they seem awfully complex beasts, these HT receivers, even to a EE engineer like myself. Did they put all these features in there because they can, rather than customers asking for them? Couldn't be, could it? :-) Actually, the complexity is mainly in the function rather than (as it used to be) in the hardware. To answer your question, it's likely some of both but a lot of it is just plain necessary. Once sound exists in the digital domain, there are all SORTS of things that you can do to it using mathematically based filters and algorithms. Tone control, bandpass, hi or lo pass filtering is all a matter of applying the appropriate algorithms in the processing chips. On the other hand, just think of the various ways that 5 and 1/2 channels of sound might be configured in someone's home. You need to be flexible for handling all situations. E.g., starting with just a stereo and 2 large main speakers? Well let's route the center channel voices evenly between them. Bring the rear effects to the front, massage them a bit and blend them with the front. And don't forget the low frequency effects channel. That will also need to be sent to the two mains. This can all be configured by just telling the system that you only have 2 speakers-it'll figure out the rest. However, once you add a subwoofer of some sort, your configuration choices increase and depend on several things. The typical configuration is that you simply tell (i.e., configure) the system that you have a sub on the LFE output and that the LFE channel is to be sent there (the ".1" channel in the "5.1" system is not a full channel--it only carries frequencies of around 0-250Hz or thereabouts). Now the sub will carry only LF effects and when the boomy/rumbling effects from that channel aren't there, the sub is silent. The low bass sounds in the other 5 channels are sent to each of their respective speakers so a bass drum in the musical score of a DVD movie will still show up on the main speakers EVEN IF IT WOULD SOUND BETTER IF SENT TO THE SUBWOOFER. Note that the LFE channel's output must also have it's own level control so that it can be set up to not over or under power the sound compared with the rest of the speakers. Note also that this is not the "subwoofer" volume but rather the LFE channel volume. There is no practical difference in the above example but there is in the following. What if the front speakers on the system are tiny and have really lousy bass? Well, since you now have a subwoofer on the system, you can tell the system that your front speakers are inadaquate for the great bass in the musical soundtracks of the DVDs you are trying to listen to (i.e., tell the AV receiver that the main speakers are "small") and the receiver will route the bass away from the main speakers and into the subwoofer, blending it with the LFE channel's output. This not only has the advantage of extending your sound on the front main channels (such as for musical scores) but if the receiver also engages hi pass filtering in this configuration, it can offload the small speakers from large bass currents which can actually help the small speakers sound a bit better and not overload as easily on high level sound passages (i.e., the basic satellite/sub arrangement) Since unlike the original Dolby Surround where the side or rear speakers only carried effects type sounds and were limited in bandwidth (sorta like the LFE ".1" channel in 5.1), Dolby 5.1 has 5 FULL RANGE channels. This means that the center and two rear channels can have the same problem as mentioned in the above example for the mains if they are small or bass-shy as well. Again, by stipulating that there is a sub attached to the system AND the center and/or rear speakers are SMALL, the receiver will route their bass signal to the subwoofer instead (or if you have no subwoofer but your main speakers are "Large", it can send them to the mains instead). This is the same effect as running the mains, center, or rears through a physical low pass filter and sending the result to the sub. It may also be that the 5 non sub speaker channels are run through a high pass filter to remove the bass from the channel before hitting the speakers. The filtering is all done in the digital domain though and doesn't need physical outboard filters. In this second example the bass being routed to the subwoofer from the mains (or center or rears) is a different thing from the LFE channel and so some way of controlling its level to the sub independant from the LFE level is needed and is usually provided for in some way. What if your main speakers are already fairly good for bass but you have a killer sub that can go down to 15Hz? It you took all the bass from the mains and sent it to the sub to get the "way down deep" music from the main channels, there might be a problem with the crossover region in that the better sounding speakers have sound now sent to the sub. What you need is the ability to change the crossover region for the "low pass" filtering going to the sub so that only the very low frequencies are sent there. Many receivers (such as the Yamahas) have a setting for speaker size such as "medium" to handle this. Others have an actual frequency setting for where you want the low pass filtering to roll over at. Anyway, as you can see, all ov these configuration issues are simply a "forced" result of the fact that there are many ways to set up speakers to listen to 5.1 sound depending on the number of speakers, their size/freq. range, placement, etc. so nearly all of the functions described above need to be supported some way or another in the configurations of any AV receiver. Hope this helps answer some in your questions. - Jeff |
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