I'm always a little amused when someone selling a piece of high-end
equipment touts the fact that it's a 'Demo', suggesting somehow that
it's just short of new. Nothing could be farther from the truth!

Demo units are generally subject to much more abuse than home units.
Think about it… No single individual has a vested interest in its
welfare… Any number of different people have access to it, including a
fair number of stringers, who have nothing to lose by 'experimenting'
with it; "Dude, how loud are these babies?" - "Whats this button do?
- Oops!", etc.

I remember one afternoon many years ago at Sound by Swindler (Ooops, I
meant Sound by 'Singer'), where the salesman left the room briefly and
I took my hand at the patch bay. I was anxious to compare one Theta
D/A converter with another. I didn't know what I was doing and blew
fuses on 2 components, as well as an op-amp in the bay. If you think
Andy Singer ultimately disclosed that to the buyer of those 2 demos,
we have a bridge here in New York that I'd be glad to sell you.

For the record; the best experiences I've had buying used audio gear,
were from trusted individuals, not merchants.

A_C

Agent_C wrote:

I'm always a little amused when someone selling a piece of high-end
equipment touts the fact that it's a 'Demo', suggesting somehow that
it's just short of new. Nothing could be farther from the truth!

Demo units are generally subject to much more abuse than home units.
Think about it… No single individual has a vested interest in its
welfare… Any number of different people have access to it, including a
fair number of stringers, who have nothing to lose by 'experimenting'
with it; "Dude, how loud are these babies?" - "Whats this button do?
- Oops!", etc.

I remember one afternoon many years ago at Sound by Swindler (Ooops, I
meant Sound by 'Singer'), where the salesman left the room briefly and
I took my hand at the patch bay. I was anxious to compare one Theta
D/A converter with another. I didn't know what I was doing and blew
fuses on 2 components, as well as an op-amp in the bay. If you think
Andy Singer ultimately disclosed that to the buyer of those 2 demos,
we have a bridge here in New York that I'd be glad to sell you.

For the record; the best experiences I've had buying used audio gear,
were from trusted individuals, not merchants.

If you can *blow* gear by patching it - it shouldn't be on sale. I simply
don't believe you.

Now - realistically - what damage do you think can be *really* done by
'demoing' gear ?

Is this a troll btw ?

Graham

Pooh Bear wrote:

If you can *blow* gear by patching it - it shouldn't be on sale. I simply
don't believe you.

I was wondering about that, too. Maybe he plugged an amplifier output
to a mic preamp input or something like that. People who aren't careful
enough not to do that have no business fooling around with someone
else's gear.

I'll bet he never went back to that store (for more reasons than
questioning the condition of their "demo" equipment). The clerk might
have a good memory.

On 27 Aug 2005 07:27:36 -0700, "Mike Rivers"
wrote:

I was wondering about that, too. Maybe he plugged an amplifier output
to a mic preamp input or something like that. People who aren't careful
enough not to do that have no business fooling around with someone
else's gear.

That's precisely my point... Demo gear is subjected to things a
thoughtful owner would never do.

A_C

Agent_C wrote:
On 27 Aug 2005 07:27:36 -0700, "Mike Rivers"
wrote:

I was wondering about that, too. Maybe he plugged an amplifier output
to a mic preamp input or something like that. People who aren't careful
enough not to do that have no business fooling around with someone
else's gear.

That's precisely my point... Demo gear is subjected to things a
thoughtful owner would never do.

EVERYTHING in a commercial studio is subjected to things a thoughtful
owner would never do.
--scott

What? You drove away the remote truck without noticing one of the
multipins was still plugged in? No problem....
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Agent_C wrote:

On 27 Aug 2005 07:27:36 -0700, "Mike Rivers"
wrote:

I was wondering about that, too. Maybe he plugged an amplifier output
to a mic preamp input or something like that. People who aren't careful
enough not to do that have no business fooling around with someone
else's gear.

That's precisely my point... Demo gear is subjected to things a
thoughtful owner would never do.

Nothing that's on a patch bay should be 'damageable' by cross-patching. If
it happened it was defective product design that was at fault..

Graham

Mike Rivers wrote:

Pooh Bear wrote:

If you can *blow* gear by patching it - it shouldn't be on sale. I simply
don't believe you.

I was wondering about that, too. Maybe he plugged an amplifier output
to a mic preamp input or something like that.

In which case the amplifier output should never have been on the patch bay !

People who aren't careful
enough not to do that have no business fooling around with someone
else's gear.

Yup.

Graham

I agree. KISS and Murphy.

On Sat, 27 Aug 2005 15:20:54 +0100, Pooh Bear
wrote:

If you can *blow* gear by patching it - it shouldn't be on sale. I simply
don't believe you.

Now - realistically - what damage do you think can be *really* done by
'demoing' gear ?

Is this a troll btw ?

Are you stupid?

- Over-driving the equipment, recklessly

- Blowing internal components by interconnecting while still powered
up.

-Miss wiring

The list is long…

A_C

Agent_C wrote:

On Sat, 27 Aug 2005 15:20:54 +0100, Pooh Bear
wrote:

If you can *blow* gear by patching it - it shouldn't be on sale. I simply
don't believe you.

Now - realistically - what damage do you think can be *really* done by
'demoing' gear ?

Is this a troll btw ?

Are you stupid?

I'm a very experienced pro-audio designer actually who smelt a rat.


- Over-driving the equipment, recklessly

You simply can't 'overdrive' line level equpiment in a way that'll damage it
unless it's very defectively designed.

In fact almost no electronics can be 'overdriven' to destruction these days.
OK - valve ( toob ) amps will go bang if the speaker gets disonnected while
it's working but just about everything else is bulletproof.

Btw - it's possible to make valve amps tolerant of even that condition
actually.


- Blowing internal components by interconnecting while still powered
up.

-Miss wiring

The list is long…

None of those things should damage *competently designed* equipment.


Graham

On Sat, 27 Aug 2005 16:53:59 +0100, Pooh Bear
wrote:

You simply can't 'overdrive' line level equpiment in a way that'll damage it
unless it's very defectively designed.

Speakers?

A_C

Agent_C wrote:

On Sat, 27 Aug 2005 16:53:59 +0100, Pooh Bear
wrote:

You simply can't 'overdrive' line level equpiment in a way that'll damage it
unless it's very defectively designed.

Speakers?

I said *line level equipment*. I expected you to know what that means.

Graham

Agent_C wrote:
On Sat, 27 Aug 2005 16:53:59 +0100, Pooh Bear
wrote:

You simply can't 'overdrive' line level equpiment in a way that'll damage it
unless it's very defectively designed.

Speakers?

Depends on the application. One of the requirements for full-range
studio monitors in many applications is that they _cannot_ be damaged
even by idiots.

The original poster, though, specified line level equipment specifically
to eliminate speakers.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

On Sat, 27 Aug 2005 12:08:35 -0400, Agent_C
wrote:

You simply can't 'overdrive' line level equpiment in a way that'll damage it
unless it's very defectively designed.

Speakers?

Which part of "line level" don't you understand?

"Pooh Bear" wrote in message
...
Agent_C wrote:

On Sat, 27 Aug 2005 15:20:54 +0100, Pooh Bear
wrote:

If you can *blow* gear by patching it - it shouldn't be on sale. I
simply
don't believe you.

Now - realistically - what damage do you think can be *really* done by
'demoing' gear ?

Is this a troll btw ?

Are you stupid?

I'm a very experienced pro-audio designer actually who smelt a rat.

Would that be:
"I'm a very experienced pro-audio designer actually,who smelt a rat."
or:
"I'm a very experienced pro-audio designer,actually who smelt a rat."
Is there a difference? ..hmmm hehe
:-)
req

"Pooh Bear" wrote in message
...




Now - realistically - what damage do you think can be *really* done by
'demoing' gear ?


Only thing I can think of is plugging in the wrong wall-wart power supply.
That can generate some smoke.


Gareth.



Graham

Gareth Magennis wrote:
"Pooh Bear" wrote in message

Now - realistically - what damage do you think can be *really* done by
'demoing' gear ?

Only thing I can think of is plugging in the wrong wall-wart power supply.
That can generate some smoke.

I assure you that NOTHING at Sound By Singer would be seen sporting a
wall-wart.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Agent_C wrote:

I'm always a little amused when someone selling a piece of high-end
equipment touts the fact that it's a 'Demo', suggesting somehow that
it's just short of new. Nothing could be farther from the truth!

Demo units are generally subject to much more abuse than home units.
Think about it… No single individual has a vested interest in its
welfare… Any number of different people have access to it, including a
fair number of stringers, who have nothing to lose by 'experimenting'
with it; "Dude, how loud are these babies?" - "Whats this button do?
- Oops!", etc.

I remember one afternoon many years ago at Sound by Swindler (Ooops, I
meant Sound by 'Singer'), where the salesman left the room briefly and
I took my hand at the patch bay. I was anxious to compare one Theta
D/A converter with another. I didn't know what I was doing and blew
fuses on 2 components, as well as an op-amp in the bay. If you think
Andy Singer ultimately disclosed that to the buyer of those 2 demos,
we have a bridge here in New York that I'd be glad to sell you.

For the record; the best experiences I've had buying used audio gear,
were from trusted individuals, not merchants.

A_C

Blan blah blah

Troll troll troll

"Pooh Bear" wrote in message
...


Agent_C wrote:

I'm always a little amused when someone selling a piece of high-end
equipment touts the fact that it's a 'Demo', suggesting somehow that
it's just short of new. Nothing could be farther from the truth!

Demo units are generally subject to much more abuse than home units.
Think about it. No single individual has a vested interest in its
welfare. Any number of different people have access to it, including a
fair number of stringers, who have nothing to lose by 'experimenting'
with it; "Dude, how loud are these babies?" - "Whats this button do?
- Oops!", etc.

I remember one afternoon many years ago at Sound by Swindler (Ooops, I
meant Sound by 'Singer'), where the salesman left the room briefly and
I took my hand at the patch bay. I was anxious to compare one Theta
D/A converter with another. I didn't know what I was doing and blew
fuses on 2 components, as well as an op-amp in the bay. If you think
Andy Singer ultimately disclosed that to the buyer of those 2 demos,
we have a bridge here in New York that I'd be glad to sell you.

For the record; the best experiences I've had buying used audio gear,
were from trusted individuals, not merchants.

A_C

Blan blah blah

Troll troll troll

Troll or not, hi-end shops allow people to take stuff home for audition at
times over the weekend. I myself did that from two shops in the NYC suburbs.
Only G-d knows what happens there.

On Sat, 27 Aug 2005 09:30:24 -0400, Agent_C wrote:

I remember one afternoon many years ago at Sound by Swindler (Ooops, I
meant Sound by 'Singer'), where the salesman left the room briefly and I
took my hand at the patch bay. I was anxious to compare one Theta D/A
converter with another. I didn't know what I was doing and blew fuses on 2
components, as well as an op-amp in the bay.

What kind of patchbay has opamps in it?

How about a Neve 8108/8128? It's loaded with crappy 4741 quad opamps as
is the rest of the console. What a disaster!

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades

wrote:

How about a Neve 8108/8128? It's loaded with crappy 4741 quad opamps as
is the rest of the console. What a disaster!

I don't recall the 8128s I've seen having 4741s. Maybe it's my memory. We
never made very many when I was there.Goodness knows what team designed
that desk though. It wasn't too clever in places.

Graham

Agent_C wrote:
I'm always a little amused when someone selling a piece of high-end
equipment touts the fact that it's a 'Demo', suggesting somehow that
it's just short of new. Nothing could be farther from the truth!

Demo units are generally subject to much more abuse than home units.
Think about it... No single individual has a vested interest in its
welfare... Any number of different people have access to it, including a
fair number of stringers, who have nothing to lose by 'experimenting'
with it; "Dude, how loud are these babies?" - "Whats this button do?
- Oops!", etc.

It depends on who you get it from and what sort of warranty is offered.
If you buy direct from a manufacturer offering gear at a discount
that's been used for trade show demos, it usually comes with a good
warranty and they check it out fully before packing it up for
discounted sale.

If you buy a demo piece off the shelf from a dealer, you might get get
something that's been mishandled and generally the dealer doesn't know
enough about it to check it out fully. The kind of warranty you get is
usually the factory warranty (since it's never been sold, the factory
will honor it) and the dealer will almost always give you a reasonable
amount of time for you to check it out yourself and return it for a
full refund if you're not satisfied.

For the record; the best experiences I've had buying used audio gear,
were from trusted individuals, not merchants.

How do you know who to trust? I've bought very little gear from people
I don't know, and I've never had a bad deal, but there's so much gear
sold by people who know so little about it that the chances of getting
less than you expected are not at all remote.

There are good reasons for buying "demo" -- if it still has the full
warranty.

One reason is that it's passed the point of "infant mortality". Another is
that you might get a very attractive price. (Some dealers no doubt use "this
is demo gear" to grant a discount when they're not "supposed" to.)

I would not turn up my nose at demo gear.

didn't know what I was doing and blew
fuses on 2 components, as well as an op-amp in the bay. If you think
Andy Singer ultimately disclosed that to the buyer of those 2 demos,
we have a bridge here in New York that I'd be glad to sell you.

Did you disclose what you had done to Andy Singer?


"Agent_C" wrote in message
...
I'm always a little amused when someone selling a piece of high-end
equipment touts the fact that it's a 'Demo', suggesting somehow that
it's just short of new. Nothing could be farther from the truth!

Demo units are generally subject to much more abuse than home units.
Think about it. No single individual has a vested interest in its
welfare. Any number of different people have access to it, including a
fair number of stringers, who have nothing to lose by 'experimenting'
with it; "Dude, how loud are these babies?" - "Whats this button do?
- Oops!", etc.

I remember one afternoon many years ago at Sound by Swindler (Ooops, I
meant Sound by 'Singer'), where the salesman left the room briefly and
I took my hand at the patch bay. I was anxious to compare one Theta
D/A converter with another. I didn't know what I was doing and blew
fuses on 2 components, as well as an op-amp in the bay. If you think
Andy Singer ultimately disclosed that to the buyer of those 2 demos,
we have a bridge here in New York that I'd be glad to sell you.

For the record; the best experiences I've had buying used audio gear,
were from trusted individuals, not merchants.

A_C

On Sun, 28 Aug 2005 15:58:32 -0600, "Animix"
wrote:

Did you disclose what you had done to Andy Singer?

Yes, Miss Crabtree.

A_C

Fuses and opamps can be replaced. Why slag him by inferring that he somehow
misrepresented it to a potential buyer?


"Agent_C" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 28 Aug 2005 15:58:32 -0600, "Animix"
wrote:

Did you disclose what you had done to Andy Singer?

Yes, Miss Crabtree.

A_C

On Sun, 28 Aug 2005 17:06:37 -0600, "Animix"
wrote:

Fuses and opamps can be replaced. Why slag him by inferring that he somehow
misrepresented it to a potential buyer?

Maybe because he's a snake oil merchant?

A_C

In article ,
says...


I'm always a little amused when someone selling a piece of high-end
equipment touts the fact that it's a 'Demo', suggesting somehow that
it's just short of new. Nothing could be farther from the truth!

Demo units are generally subject to much more abuse than home units.
Think about it… No single individual has a vested interest in its
welfare… Any number of different people have access to it, including a
fair number of stringers, who have nothing to lose by 'experimenting'
with it; "Dude, how loud are these babies?" - "Whats this button do?
- Oops!", etc.

I remember one afternoon many years ago at Sound by Swindler (Ooops, I
meant Sound by 'Singer'), where the salesman left the room briefly and
I took my hand at the patch bay. I was anxious to compare one Theta
D/A converter with another. I didn't know what I was doing and blew
fuses on 2 components, as well as an op-amp in the bay. If you think
Andy Singer ultimately disclosed that to the buyer of those 2 demos,
we have a bridge here in New York that I'd be glad to sell you.

For the record; the best experiences I've had buying used audio gear,
were from trusted individuals, not merchants.

Usually demo equipment comes with the same warranty as a new item, so you
get more coverage from the manufacturer than you would buying from a a
trusted individual.
----------------
Alex

On Mon, 29 Aug 2005 16:27:05 -0400, Alex Rodriguez
wrote:

Usually demo equipment comes with the same warranty as a new item, so you
get more coverage from the manufacturer than you would buying from a a
trusted individual.

Usually, but not always. Check out this auction on eBay:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tem=5803220194

The manufacturer offers a 5-year extended warranty on this particular
component. Yet the seller would have you believe that in all that time
(probably 6 years) he only put 50 hours on it. Yeah... Right...

A_C

Agent_C wrote:

On Mon, 29 Aug 2005 16:27:05 -0400, Alex Rodriguez
wrote:

Usually demo equipment comes with the same warranty as a new item, so you
get more coverage from the manufacturer than you would buying from a a
trusted individual.

Usually, but not always. Check out this auction on eBay:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tem=5803220194

The manufacturer offers a 5-year extended warranty on this particular
component. Yet the seller would have you believe that in all that time
(probably 6 years) he only put 50 hours on it. Yeah... Right...

" The positive and negative halves of the signal never touch "

Classic audiophoolery.

Graham

On Mon, 29 Aug 2005 22:01:02 +0100, Pooh Bear
wrote:

" The positive and negative halves of the signal never touch "

Classic audiophoolery.

That's a whole other thing... I exchanged a few emails with this guy;
he's real piece of work. His price is also completely ridiculous. The
last Perreaux SM-6 sold for about $700.00 on Audiogon.

A_C

On 8/30/05 7:01, in article , "Pooh Bear"
wrote:

On Mon, 29 Aug 2005 16:27:05 -0400, Alex Rodriguez
wrote:

Usually demo equipment comes with the same warranty as a new item, so you
get more coverage from the manufacturer than you would buying from a a
trusted individual.

Usually, but not always. Check out this auction on eBay:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tem=5803220194

The manufacturer offers a 5-year extended warranty on this particular
component. Yet the seller would have you believe that in all that time
(probably 6 years) he only put 50 hours on it. Yeah... Right...

" The positive and negative halves of the signal never touch "

Classic audiophoolery.

Graham

Congrats for spotting the scam.

You've been made a "junior bluebook valuation deputy"!

"Agent_C" wrote in message
...

The manufacturer offers a 5-year extended warranty on this particular
component. Yet the seller would have you believe that in all that time
(probably 6 years) he only put 50 hours on it. Yeah... Right...


I have a DA-88 which fits that scenario, except it's more like 12 years.

geoff