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#41
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Some acts actually do gigs which are 'enhanced' versions of music
they've recorded. Elton John, and the numerous shows he's done with full symphonic backing, comes to mind. Sequencing (some) keyboard parts and playing along with...is that considered 'cheating' by purists? jak Hello, Jak. I think that your observation about Elton John is well put. I would also like to mention, though, that when Elton John toured the Soviet Union, the only other musician he brought with him was his percussionist at that time, Ray Cooper. For additional support, though, he also worked with the help of some live sequencing on a musical organ. After he returned from the Soviet Union, my recollection is that he then went on to tour the U.S. using essentially the same format. Elton had prepared himself very well for these tours, and I can only believe that Van Cliburn himself must have been pleased. |
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#42
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On Fri, 7 Jan 2005 17:42:55 -0600, "Lee D"
wrote: I don't have a problem with studio technology, but I think that bands should record as bands and not a public figure backed by studio musicians singing songs selected by producers from a cadre of commercial songwriters. Good luck getting that to stop. When you see an act like that, it's usually because someone bought their way into the business and is paying a lot of money to have their public figure backed by studio musicians singing songs selected by producers from a cadre of commercial songwriters. So as long as mommies and daddies have disposable millions to throw at their semi-talented offspring, it's going to be that way. Your posts on this thread are cracking me up. Reality can be that way sometimes. Yeah, reality is a funny bitch, ain't it? |
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#43
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#44
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#45
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On Sat, 08 Jan 2005 04:26:52 GMT, JMK wrote:
"Don Evans" wrote in I'm not one for crystal clear female voices, preferring the dark timbres of a Chrissie Hynde snip Hynde sings? She's almost as bad as Linda McCartney! dB |
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#46
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On Fri, 07 Jan 2005 23:22:10 -0600, Tracy Wintermute
wrote: On 7 Jan 2005 09:32:54 -0500, (Mike Rivers) wrote: a public figure backed by studio musicians singing songs selected by producers from a cadre of commercial songwriters. Isn't this, really, what has been going on with most of the 'popular' music since at least the 30s? It was maybe the 60s when it became a 'badge of honor' for _some_ performers to actually perform what they themselves actually composed (while the other method continued for others.) But that badge is largely only recognized by other performers, 'purists', and those who have deified themselves for having the knowledge of 'how things should really be'.... not by the majority of the listening public. snip That's exactly the criticism levelled at 3 Dog Night in their heyday...they didn't write any of their own songs. They didn't have to. Their success was picking the right songs and arranging them to make hits...which they did quite well, earning them 12 golds. Rock "purists" (if there are really such things) moaned and groaned, and their heroes limped off with maybe 50K units per album. As far as commercial success went, 3 Dog Night was king for about 5 years. Heroin messed that up for them, like it did for most rockers/poppers at that time. You look back into the swing/big band era, almost NONE of the heavyweights of that era "wrote their own songs." I think it's a bunch of horse ****. Writers write songs, performers perform them...division of labor that works. dB |
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#47
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"Matt" wrote in message news  In defense of Billy Joel, he admitted in an interview (I've lost which one) that he had to take "The Stranger" out of his set for a few years because the band (especially Liberty) kept making faces and doing funny things in an effort to make him laugh and screw up the whistling. He was not pre-recording that part of the show. As to the rest, I cannot say since I have never seen him live. The video taped live performances I have seen, suggest to me that he and the band are really playing. He just has amazing piano and vocal (and whistling) chops. Some folks do. Matt Porter I saw Billy Joel during the Storm Front tour in about 1990 or so. A storm knocked out the power to the arena for a minute. You could hear Liberty playing a few beats before he stopped. When the power came back on they picked up where they had left off in the song. Very cool. 99.7634% sure there was no lip syncing that night. :-) |
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#48
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My opinion is that I'm totally for whatever approach a band wants to
take. If they want to not play anything they can't duplicate live, that's great. If they want to add a million overdubs like Queen, that's fine, too. Neither approach is wrong. Me, I like the best of both worlds...I'm not above adding extra harmonies or overdubbing a lead for a 3-piece band, but I don't go nuts adding overdubs for hours and hours. I don't have the patience. i would do whatever it takes to make the song as perfect as possible and the thought of how i would reproduce it live would never enter my mind. if your songs sound a little different live, a little rawer there's nothing wrong with that, it makes it interesting. i like it when bands rework their arrangements, or change melodies, or jam things out, etc.. it keeps things fresh and it gives me a reason to buy the live album. if i want to hear the album version well, i'll just put on the album. I don't mind if a band adds a little or jams a little or doesn't exactly duplicate the album version, but I don't like to hear radical reworkings of songs. I once saw Devo and they opened with an acoustic version of "Jocko Homo" that sounded nothing like the original, and while it was good for a laugh, I was bummed they didn't do the original herky-jerky version. well that sounds more like reworking a song just for the sake of doing it, it has to be as good or better than the original arrangement, otherwise whats the point. |
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#49
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Tony Ennis wrote:
FZ and the MoI were doing a show similar to American Bandstand. They were told to lipsync and that they didn't need to play their instruments. Since they weren't making real music, they decided they didn't need real instruments, raided a janitor's closet, and 'played' brooms and mops. Funny. A buddy of mine was in the Vegetables and they got a slot on American Bandstand. He plugged one end of an instrument cable into his guitar, and another player plugged the other end of the cable into his instrument. The thing was dangling a couple of feet off the ground. Look ma, no amps! -Mark |
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#50
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"Boom" wrote in message ... Gee whiz, some of you really need to get over yourselves if you want to play music for a living. It isn't like that at all Boom. What if your income isn't dependent on music and only play for the sake of playing? Finding a great group of museos and taking it where it will go is my goal. When I was in your situation and trying to make a living playing music, I felt the same as you and would do whatever it took. However, I'm a weekend warrior now and do it for my jollies. I only do about 6-8 gigs a month. Different situation. I saw one comment about "I'd rather empty garbage cans than do a gig like Alison Krauss." Well, my advice to you is get some heavy work gloves, some steel-toed boots, and work on your upper body strength, because the likelihood is that you WILL be toting garbage cans instead of playing music for a living. I'm not in your situation and hold a different opinion. There's nothing wrong with that. See my comment above. I learned a long time ago that I didn't like playing music when my income depended on it. I was much better off finding another way to make money that allowed me to play what I wanted. It was a personal decision and just my opinion. Sam S. |
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#51
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#52
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Boom wrote:
I don't mind if a band adds a little or jams a little or doesn't exactly duplicate the album version, but I don't like to hear radical reworkings of songs. You would have really hated Todd Rundgren's Witt a Twist tour. Personally, I thought it was great. |
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#53
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I don't want to hear vocal backing tracks of any kind, myself...but
that's just me. If you need additional voices, hire 'em. jak This is from the same post which I have already commented upon, but concerns a related issue, which I wanted to comment upon seperately. Joni Mitchell, The Carpenters, and Queen are three examples of musicians who use vocal tracks which fit into a unique category: they are produced live, though electronically - evidently, through a phase-locked loop. Sing into the input, and take as many vocals as you want out at the output. I think that the antithesis of this approach would be something like Sly Stone's "Love And Haight", where each individual vocal appears to have optimum independence. I love those independent "voodoo" background vocals! |
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#54
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On Fri, 07 Jan 2005 23:00:52 -0800, DeserTBoB
wrote: On Sat, 08 Jan 2005 04:26:52 GMT, JMK wrote: "Don Evans" wrote in I'm not one for crystal clear female voices, preferring the dark timbres of a Chrissie Hynde snip Hynde sings? She's almost as bad as Linda McCartney! dB You want to hear a female singer check out Mavis Staples from the Staple singers. My this women has got soul up the yin yang (Whatever the heck that means). IMHO She has more soul than Aretha and Gladys combined and these two ladies are awesome as well. Everytime I hear Mavis I get goosebumps. She is phenominal and a forgotten talent. Its a shame really. Regards Mike |
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#55
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On 8 Jan 2005 07:17:00 -0800, "MikeMandaville"
wrote: want out at the output. I think that the antithesis of this approach would be something like Sly Stone's "Love And Haight", I thought I was the only one who knew that tune. I am impressed Mike. I have the album now but, as a kid that tune was the flip side to the "Family affair" 45. Sly was pretty innovative in those days. First drum machine I ever heard was from Sly and he uses it often on the"There's a riot goin on" album. Actually they called this drum machine "the rhythm ace". Sounded cheesy like an old Lowery organ drum sequence but worked well with Sly. Regards Mike |
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#56
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i worked with purdie a bunch of times - kinda an asshole ... EXTREMELY full of
himself |
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#57
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#58
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Boom, once again you are right on the money. This is something that any
successful musician has to learn: do your job. If you don't like the job, then don't take the job. Get your own band, but then you'd better hope that the musicians you hire won't give you lip about what you want them to play. Q: How you get a musician to complain? A: Give him a gig. "Boom" wrote in message ... Gee whiz, some of you really need to get over yourselves if you want to play music for a living. Here's the deal...the person whose is offering you the gig reigns supreme. If you have the leeway to play what you want to play, it's only because of their benevolence. If they're not so giving, then you shut up, play what they want to hear, collect your paycheck, and do your own side project if you have a big musical jones you need to let loose. Alison Krauss is not hurting for musicians who would love to play in her band. You can say what you want to about musical integrity and how non-creative it is, but no amount of whining is going to change the fact that the person signing your checks calls the shots and if they want it done a certain way, they will hire and fire as many musicians as it takes to get it done. I lead bands sometimes, and I do sideman work as well. When I lead the band, I don't want to hear someone whining about what I'm asking them to play. Just play the damn gig, get your money, and go home. Likewise, I give the bandleaders I work with the same respect. I saw one comment about "I'd rather empty garbage cans than do a gig like Alison Krauss." Well, my advice to you is get some heavy work gloves, some steel-toed boots, and work on your upper body strength, because the likelihood is that you WILL be toting garbage cans instead of playing music for a living. Unless of course you have your own project that's really good and gets picked up by a record company. And then instead of a bandleader who knows her **** telling you what to do, you'll have a bunch of stupid accountants and lawyers who don't know dick about music telling you what to do, as well as a producer who has his own agenda for what he wants your music to sound like. And if you don't do it, you'll get forgotten and they will either delay your projects until you do what they want or they'll just let your contract run out and prevent you from going elsewhere without paying a hefty price. Of course, you can go the Ani DiFranco route and start your own label and do exactly what you want when you want to do it. But how many Ani DiFrancos are there who have done that and been successful and made money? So for most of us, the best thing to do is just make the best of the situation we're in, and go home with some decent cash at the end of the night. Or go get another job and play music on the side, and there's nothing at all wrong with that. I'm just telling you how it is if you want to play music for a living. And that's exactly how it is. Just remember the Golden Rule: "The one with the gold rules." |
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#59
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"-MIKE-" wrote in message
... I remember seeing the Beatles in '64. Yeah, Bernard Purdie did a great job, that night. :-) Couple years ago, BP sat in with a band in which I played bass at the time--he was old friends with the bandleader. BP didn't know the tune or the arrangement or punches (a John Scofield song, slow-medium double-time feel--don't recall the title), so I cued him when they came up. Only needed to do it one time, then he had them. It was one of the most enjoyable times I have ever had performing. This 60-something year-old drummer was sweating like a newbie up there, which was encouraging--if he can sweat sitting in and still play his arse off, then I've no excuse to do otherwise. A total sweetheart of a guy, too. He hung out until they closed up for the night, chatting with anyone who wanted to meet him. What a pro. What a joy. I also saw him play with Madonna's band on SNL one show. She sang "Fever" and Madonna put him on a riser right behind her. Seeing him play with her (and kicking the band dead square in the arse while he was at it) gave me a whole new respect for both him and her. |
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#60
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Richard Edmondson wrote:
I saw Billy Joel during the Storm Front tour in about 1990 or so. A storm knocked out the power to the arena for a minute. You could hear Liberty playing a few beats before he stopped. When the power came back on they picked up where they had left off in the song. Very cool. 99.7634% sure there was no lip syncing that night. :-) In the '70's at Armadillo World Headquarters in Austin TX Frank Zappa and the Mothers were mid-song when Frank was informed a bomb threat had been called in to the club. He stopped the band mid-measure, calmly delivered the need for an exit plan to an audience that quickly and carefully left the building. The cops and the fire guys went through the place and gave the all-clear. Frank and team took the stage and started right where they'd left off. -- ha |
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#61
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hank alrich wrote:
Richard Edmondson wrote: I saw Billy Joel during the Storm Front tour in about 1990 or so. A storm knocked out the power to the arena for a minute. You could hear Liberty playing a few beats before he stopped. When the power came back on they picked up where they had left off in the song. Very cool. 99.7634% sure there was no lip syncing that night. :-) In the '70's at Armadillo World Headquarters in Austin TX Frank Zappa and the Mothers were mid-song when Frank was informed a bomb threat had been called in to the club. He stopped the band mid-measure, calmly delivered the need for an exit plan to an audience that quickly and carefully left the building. The cops and the fire guys went through the place and gave the all-clear. Frank and team took the stage and started right where they'd left off. 1996 at the Bottom Line, Michael Hedges broke a string in the middle of "Silent Anticipations". Put the new string on, tuned up as the audience clapped along, then picked up the song right where the string had broken. Then again, these guys *are* slightly talented. Alan |
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#62
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On 2005-01-08, DeserTBoB wrote:
Carole King...face that'll stop an 8 day clock, voice like Brillo, Different strokes I guess. Maybe you just don't find Jewish dames attractive? |
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#63
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AMEN!
I play as a three-piece (bass, drums, guitar) all the time and I, the drummer, sing every tune. 3 one hour sets worth of rock. It's quite demanding, but we love it for that! I will admit, that I run a few sequences here and there but only for keyboard parts. But that's mainly for my own benefit. I figure, I made the sequences from scratch, I should show that off. For instance: We do some Rush and I run sequences for Tom Sawyer and Show Don't Tell. Both made from scratch on my Mac, Roland JV-2080, Ensoniq EPS-16+, and played on my iPod with click on one side and keys on the other. I even sampled my voice and lowered it on Show Don't Tell for the "I WILL BE THE JUDGE" and "GIVE THE JURY DIRECTION" parts! hehehehe I also have a sequence for U2's "Beautiful Day" that I'm quite proud of. -S On 1/7/05 6:23 PM, in article , " wrote: "Vin" wrote in message ... if your songs sound a little different live, a little rawer there's nothing wrong with that, it makes it interesting. i like it when bands rework their arrangements, or change melodies, or jam things out, etc.. it keeps things fresh and it gives me a reason to buy the live album. if i want to hear the album version well, i'll just put on the album. Well said. I find it interesting to see how the guitarist makes the comprimises necessary to play a live show. This is particularly interesting when there's only one guitarist, and he has to try to cover both rhythm and lead . There's few things more demanding than playing live as a three-piece. -- "Timpani! Take your drums to Brooklyn, play the same volume, you'll be fine." -Otto Werner Mueller on my "Piannissimo" entrance in a Juilliard Orchestra Rehearsal, C. 1997 Remove: Spamoff from email address to reply. |
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#64
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On Sun, 09 Jan 2005 00:14:32 GMT, james of tucson
wrote: Different strokes I guess. Maybe you just don't find Jewish dames attractive? snip Her talent for writing sure was. The rest? Wellllll.... dB |
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#66
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On Sat, 8 Jan 2005 08:57:41 -0500, "Sam Savoca"
wrote: "Boom" wrote in message .. . Gee whiz, some of you really need to get over yourselves if you want to play music for a living. It isn't like that at all Boom. What if your income isn't dependent on music and only play for the sake of playing? Um, I believe the phrase "if you want to play music for a living" covers that. Finding a great group of museos and taking it where it will go is my goal. When I was in your situation and trying to make a living playing music, I felt the same as you and would do whatever it took. However, I'm a weekend warrior now and do it for my jollies. I only do about 6-8 gigs a month. Different situation. Again, there's nothing wrong with that approach. My whole thing was directed at people who want to make a living playing music and attach all these qualifications about how they make that living like they have any power to change things. |
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#67
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On 8 Jan 2005 07:17:00 -0800, "MikeMandaville"
wrote: I don't want to hear vocal backing tracks of any kind, myself...but that's just me. If you need additional voices, hire 'em. **** that! I'd rather cut my own voice and the voices of the guys in my band several times and save the money. In the end, nobody cares. This is from the same post which I have already commented upon, but concerns a related issue, which I wanted to comment upon seperately. Joni Mitchell, The Carpenters, and Queen are three examples of musicians who use vocal tracks which fit into a unique category: they are produced live, though electronically - evidently, through a phase-locked loop. Sing into the input, and take as many vocals as you want out at the output. I think that the antithesis of this approach would be something like Sly Stone's "Love And Haight", where each individual vocal appears to have optimum independence. I love those independent "voodoo" background vocals! A phase locked loop? I don't think so...they overdubbed themselves several times. |
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#68
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On Sat, 08 Jan 2005 19:10:48 GMT, "Skip Elliott Bowman"
wrote: "-MIKE-" wrote in message ... Couple years ago, BP sat in with a band in which I played bass at the time--he was old friends with the bandleader. BP didn't know the tune or the arrangement or punches (a John Scofield song, slow-medium double-time feel--don't recall the title), so I cued him when they came up. Only needed to do it one time, then he had them. It was one of the most enjoyable times I have ever had performing. This 60-something year-old drummer was sweating like a newbie up there, which was encouraging--if he can sweat sitting in and still play his arse off, then I've no excuse to do otherwise. A total sweetheart of a guy, too. He hung out until they closed up for the night, chatting with anyone who wanted to meet him. What a pro. What a joy. I only met the guy once but I felt the same way you did. I was working in a photography store in Miami about 20 years ago and Bernard did all his photo shoots there. I went in and helped him set up this electronic drumkit he was endorsing at the time, and talked and talked about music the whole time. Just an absolutely wonderful guy. I also saw him play with Madonna's band on SNL one show. She sang "Fever" and Madonna put him on a riser right behind her. Seeing him play with her (and kicking the band dead square in the arse while he was at it) gave me a whole new respect for both him and her. Madonna can sing when she wants. She's not totally without talent. |
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#69
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#70
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That's just my whole point...it's never as good as the original. I
can't think of one song that any band rearranged and made it as good as the original. heh what? i guess it depends what you mean by rearranged. there are thousands of examples of songs that sound better live than they do on the record. there are plenty of examples of songs that sound completely different acoustic but yet are just as good as the original version. some bands tweak their songs live, add jams.. if you mean a total reworking i'd suggesting listening to tools pu**** from Ænema and then the slow, live version from salival. they're very different and as good as the original version is, the live version is even better. or radiohead - like spinning plates. since you're probably not familiar with those songs, here's one you should know, eric clapton - layla. or what about covers? hendrix - all along the watchtower (dylan), gary jules - mad world (tears for fears), rage against the machine - tom joad (springsteen), etc.. |
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#71
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Certainly it's a valid approach, but whether everyone, or anyone, else
would think it's perfect as possible is another matter. um thats kinda the case no matter what you do. If it's so perfect that it's boring and nobody buys it, is it perfect? that doesn't even make sense. Perhaps so, if making money from the music isn't a goal, but perfection according to the artist's definition is. exactly, so the -artist- should do everything they want to make -their- song as good as it can be, i don't see the value in making compromises just so that it'll be easier to pull off live. |
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#72
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I've been watching this and you you seem more like a fizzle, honestly.
Boom wrote: That's just my whole point...it's never as good as the original. I can't think of one song that any band rearranged and made it as good as the original. Are you f*ing kidding? I bet you there are THOUSANDS of songs that you love that are total remakes of originals that were so poorly implemented that you never even heard them. And plenty that you HAVE heard, and forgotten. |
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#74
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Ashlee's biggest fumble
On MTV, she bored us. On 'SNL,' she conned us. Tuesday night, football fans struck back. 'Bout time. By ISAAC GUZMAN http://www.nydailynews.com/entertain...p-229875c.html |
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#76
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"Jack A. Zucker" wrote in a message
I believe if you're over 40 you just can't understand this phenomenon. Kids today just don't care. It's not music, it's a show and a show is choreographed and it doesn't matter if anyone is improvising, playing, etc. The only important value is whether it's entertaining. In that regard, much of today's concerts and performances are more like Nintendo than music to me. Of course there are many exceptions but I think the vast majority of music today is strictly about the show and PR. Yeah. Us over 40 people remember when GOOD bands played live and didn't do that lip sync crap - like on American Bandstand. ... OK... well, so they lip synced on Bandstand, but, so what? ... they COULD have played and sang live if they wanted! I don't understand why anyone cares. |
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#78
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#79
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#80
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"John P" wrote in message
... "Jack A. Zucker" wrote in a message I believe if you're over 40 you just can't understand this phenomenon. Kids today just don't care. It's not music, it's a show and a show is choreographed and it doesn't matter if anyone is improvising, playing, etc. The only important value is whether it's entertaining. In that regard, much of today's concerts and performances are more like Nintendo than music to me. Of course there are many exceptions but I think the vast majority of music today is strictly about the show and PR. Yeah. Us over 40 people remember when GOOD bands played live and didn't do that lip sync crap - like on American Bandstand. ... OK... well, so they lip synced on Bandstand, but, so what? ... they COULD have played and sang live if they wanted! I don't understand why anyone cares. Back in those days, the bands didn't lip sync because they couldn't perform, it was because TV sound capabilities fairly well sucked for featured music. There was no time allotted to "get sounds", forget about monitors, and mixes were rudimentary and dry at best. Ed Sullivan and a few other higher budget shows weren't terrible, but most of the kid oriented shows had far less audio facilities than the average home studio these days. Bands WANTED to play live, and were embarrassed when they had to lip sync. Don www.don-evans.com |
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