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Posted to rec.audio.tech
tai fu
 
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Default solid state vs tubes?

So is there any difference between using tube amps for listening to music
than solid state? I heard there were a bunch of double blind tests and
people could not tell the difference. I know there is a huge difference when
it comes to guitar amps because tubes distort differently than solid state,
but now we're talking about within the amp's headroom, is there a
difference?

--
TAI FU


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JANA
 
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Default solid state vs tubes?

This is a wide controversial subject. From when I was doing service work on
high end amplifiers, I found the high end solid state amplifiers to be very
accurate. When doing characteristics tests, such as distortion, phase,
frequency response and power handling tests, just to mention a few, the
solid state amplifiers came out on top.

The tube amplifiers generally have softer clipping when driven a little too
hard. They also tend to be higher in their harmonic distortion, and phase
distortion. These attributes tend to give the tube amplifier a less harsh
type of sound, which is very pleasing to may audio files.

For musical instrument playing, such as a guitar, my preference would be a
good heavy duty tube amplifier. For listening to my favourite CD's and
records, my first preference would be a good solid state amplifier.

I particularly like the CMOS type amplifiers. They tend to have a similar
type of gain response as the high end tube amplifier, but also have the
other characteristics of the solid state amplifier.



--

JANA
_____


"tai fu" wrote in message
...
So is there any difference between using tube amps for listening to music
than solid state? I heard there were a bunch of double blind tests and
people could not tell the difference. I know there is a huge difference when
it comes to guitar amps because tubes distort differently than solid state,
but now we're talking about within the amp's headroom, is there a
difference?

--
TAI FU



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Colin B.
 
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Default solid state vs tubes?

tai fu wrote:
So is there any difference between using tube amps for listening to music
than solid state? I heard there were a bunch of double blind tests and
people could not tell the difference. I know there is a huge difference when
it comes to guitar amps because tubes distort differently than solid state,
but now we're talking about within the amp's headroom, is there a
difference?


This thread is going to burn into the ground yet again, but I'll get some
information in early.

Well designed amps are sonically transparent, regardless of the architecture,
when kept within their operating boundaries.

As a general rule, tube amps clip softly and transistors clip sharply, which
makes overdriven tube amps better sounding than overdriven transistor amps.
You clearly know this from guitar amps. However, the odds of clipping are
generally less in a transistor amp, because it's relatively easy to make a
monster hundreds-of-watts-per-channel transistor amp that will make your
ears bleed and your speakers fry before it clips.

Also, it's possible to design an amp so badly that it's not sonically
transparent. I'm aware of one high-end transistor amp that has done this,
and a few tube amps. I'm sure there are other ones out there.

If you have two amps that sound demonstrably different, then something is
wrong with one or both of them. Either there's clipping going on, or one
of them is not functioning properly (by fault or by design).

Keep the tubes for creating music, and the transistors for playback.

Colin
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TimPerry
 
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Default solid state vs tubes?


"tai fu" wrote in message
...
So is there any difference between using tube amps for listening to music
than solid state?


very little: you have to wait for the tubes to warm up.

I heard there were a bunch of double blind tests and
people could not tell the difference.


im sorry for the blind people

I know there is a huge difference when
it comes to guitar amps because tubes distort differently than solid

state,
but now we're talking about within the amp's headroom, is there a
difference?


are you serious or just want to stir the pot? this is not a valid question.
there are plenty of differences involving cost, size, weight, reliability,
safety, RFI/EMI immunity, susceptibility to microphonics, and design to name
a few.
subjective differences could be debated forever... and ever


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geoff@away
 
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Default solid state vs tubes?


"tai fu" wrote in message
...
So is there any difference between using tube amps for listening to music
than solid state? I heard there were a bunch of double blind tests and
people could not tell the difference. I know there is a huge difference
when
it comes to guitar amps because tubes distort differently than solid
state,
but now we're talking about within the amp's headroom, is there a
difference?



Naa - eveyone can tell the difference. SS every time, if you are objective
abou it.

geoff




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geoff@away
 
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Default solid state vs tubes?


"JANA" wrote in message
...
This is a wide controversial subject. From when I was doing service work
on
high end amplifiers, I found the high end solid state amplifiers to be
very
accurate. When doing characteristics tests, such as distortion, phase,
frequency response and power handling tests, just to mention a few, the
solid state amplifiers came out on top.

The tube amplifiers generally have softer clipping when driven a little
too
hard.


If you are clippin a headphone amp , then you deseve whatever you get.
Either headphone or amp abuse, or puchased an inappropriate device for your
phones.

geoff


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Peter Larsen
 
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Default solid state vs tubes?

tai fu wrote:

So is there any difference between using tube amps for listening
to music than solid state?


Yes, tube amps are generally better as supplementary heat sources, which
is the same as saying that solid state stuff is cheaper to run because
it uses less mains power (same amplifier principle assumed).

TAI FU



Kind regards

Peter Larsen

--
*******************************************
* My site is at: http://www.muyiovatki.dk *
*******************************************
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mick
 
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Default solid state vs tubes?

On Sat, 14 Jan 2006 04:19:47 +0800, tai fu burbled:

So is there any difference between using tube amps for listening to music
than solid state? I heard there were a bunch of double blind tests and
people could not tell the difference. I know there is a huge difference
when it comes to guitar amps because tubes distort differently than solid
state, but now we're talking about within the amp's headroom, is there a
difference?


From a listening point of view valve amps tend to "soft clip" wheras solid
state amps tend to "hard clip" - which makes the amp sound pretty bad.
However, you shouldn't be running the amp into clipping anyway! I,
personally, use both s/state and valves. I like both. *Good* amps of both
kinds will usually sound very similar. If you have sensitive speakers
(90dBW or better) then it is worth trying valves if you have the
opportunity. Although they are usually lower powered than similar-priced
s/state amps the soft clipping allows them to be used close to their full
power rating without sounding objectionable. Even low powered valve amps
(5W or so) can sound *plenty* loud enough for most people if the speakers
are sensitive.

--
Mick
(no M$ software on here... :-) )
Web: http://www.nascom.info
Web: http://projectedsound.tk

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tai fu
 
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Default solid state vs tubes?

Yea I got a 15w tube guitar amp and its pretty loud, I swear I could use
this stuff at a stage or something...

--
TAI FU


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Arny Krueger
 
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Default solid state vs tubes?


"tai fu" wrote in message
...

So is there any difference between using tube amps for listening to music
than solid state?


Yes. For a given power and performance level the SS amp is likely to be
smaller, lighter, cheaper, more reliable and more efficient.

I heard there were a bunch of double blind tests and
people could not tell the difference.


I suspect that there are tests that have gone both ways.

I know there is a huge difference when
it comes to guitar amps because tubes distort differently than solid
state,
but now we're talking about within the amp's headroom, is there a
difference?


It all depends. There are enough different kind of tube amps that they can't
all be put in the same class. For example compare the McIntosh MC275 which
was designed to be sonically accurate, with a SET amp that was basically
designed to violate just about every design rule related to sonic accuracy.




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Derrick Fawsitt
 
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Default solid state vs tubes?

In message , tai fu
writes
Yea I got a 15w tube guitar amp and its pretty loud, I swear I could use
this stuff at a stage or something...

--
TAI FU

I have an old Telefunken Valve Radio, (the one with the two elliptical
speakers on the front and a one tweeter elliptical speaker each side,
model called "Opus"), and apart from the wonderful FM sound it has only
eight watts per channel and yet could blow you out of the room. I am a
non-tech person so I will leave it to others here to describe why its so
good. It also is a lovely piece of furniture and of course I shall never
sell it.
--
Derrick Fawsitt
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Mr.T
 
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Default solid state vs tubes?


"Derrick Fawsitt" wrote in message
...
I have an old Telefunken Valve Radio, (the one with the two elliptical
speakers on the front and a one tweeter elliptical speaker each side,
model called "Opus"), and apart from the wonderful FM sound it has only
eight watts per channel and yet could blow you out of the room. I am a
non-tech person so I will leave it to others here to describe why its so
good. It also is a lovely piece of furniture and of course I shall never
sell it.


I have a 500 mW transistor radio with 3" speaker that "blows you out of the
room". Yet my Hi-Fi needs 100 times that much to do the same :-)
Of course the actual measured SPL in the latter case is about 20 dB higher.
Isn't the human brain an amazing thing!

MrT.


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Trevor Wilson
 
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Default solid state vs tubes?


"tai fu" wrote in message
...
So is there any difference between using tube amps for listening to music
than solid state?


**Dollar for Dollar? Yes. SS is less expensive for the same performance. SS
amps can more easily built to offere superior load tolerance as well.

I heard there were a bunch of double blind tests and
people could not tell the difference.


**Of course. I took part in a single blind test between several amps. One
was a tube amp. It was vitually impossible to pick the tube amp from the two
SS amps. Of course, the tube amp was three times the cost. Additionally, the
load impedance was relatively 'easy'.


I know there is a huge difference when
it comes to guitar amps because tubes distort differently than solid
state,


**Nope. That is an old wive's tale. It is the topolgy which largely dictates
how an amp responds to overload. It is quite possible to build SS amps which
overload similarly to SOME tube amps.

but now we're talking about within the amp's headroom, is there a
difference?


**Measurably? Almost certainly. Audibly, it depends on circumstances.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au


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Barry Mann
 
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Default solid state vs tubes?

In , on 01/17/06
at 10:56 AM, "Mr.T" MrT@home said:

[ ... ]

I have a 500 mW transistor radio with 3" speaker that "blows you out
of the room". Yet my Hi-Fi needs 100 times that much to do the same
:-) Of course the actual measured SPL in the latter case is about 20
dB higher. Isn't the human brain an amazing thing!


I think we tend to equate distorted with "loud".

I often think that we could save ourselves a lot of trouble if an
amplifier would "bend" things a bit before clipping. This way the
system could sound "loud" without damaging anything.

In my college days we had a small room and a system that could play
(cleanly) at enough levels that one needed to cup one's hands and yell
into a person's ear to be understood -- yet we would receive requests
to "turn it up" because it didn't seem "loud". The same group of
listeners in a different venue using a dreadful little "box" playing as
loudly as it could, unimaginably distorted and no one said "turn it up"
-- it was "loud" -- yet conversation was easy.

In one situation I received numerous complaints that the system would
not play "loud" enough. When I visited the site, everyone was hoarse
from trying to talk over the sound, and the customer's comment was,
"see, that's all the louder it gets." (It was clean sounding and I
never imagined he could get that kind of level without blowing
something up.)

-----------------------------------------------------------
spam:
wordgame:123(abc):14 9 20 5 2 9 18 4 at 22 15 9 3 5 14 5 20 dot 3 15
13 (Barry Mann)
[sorry about the puzzle, spammers are ruining my mailbox]
-----------------------------------------------------------

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Arny Krueger
 
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Default solid state vs tubes?


"Mr.T" MrT@home wrote in message
u...

"Derrick Fawsitt" wrote in message
...
I have an old Telefunken Valve Radio, (the one with the two elliptical
speakers on the front and a one tweeter elliptical speaker each side,
model called "Opus"), and apart from the wonderful FM sound it has only
eight watts per channel and yet could blow you out of the room. I am a
non-tech person so I will leave it to others here to describe why its so
good. It also is a lovely piece of furniture and of course I shall never
sell it.


I have a 500 mW transistor radio with 3" speaker that "blows you out of
the
room".


Narrow bandwidth, high efficiency speaker.

Yet my Hi-Fi needs 100 times that much to do the same :-)


Broad bandwidth, low efficiency speaker.

Of course the actual measured SPL in the latter case is about 20 dB
higher.


But, one is shaped to fit over the parts of the audio spectrum where the ear
is most sensitive.

Isn't the human brain an amazing thing!


Actually, this one is settled in the ear.




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Mr.T
 
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Default solid state vs tubes?


"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..
I have a 500 mW transistor radio with 3" speaker that "blows you out of
the
room".


Narrow bandwidth, high efficiency speaker.


Actually the main speakers have higher efficiency. Barry Mann hit the nail
on what I was alluding to.

Yet my Hi-Fi needs 100 times that much to do the same :-)


Broad bandwidth, low efficiency speaker.


Nope, mains are 93 dB/watt/metre.

Of course the actual measured SPL in the latter case is about 20 dB
higher.


But, one is shaped to fit over the parts of the audio spectrum where the

ear
is most sensitive.


Maybe it has no bass or treble, but you already allow for that pretty much
in the measurement weighting curve.
You could do a very narrow band measurement, and the transistor would still
be nearly 20 dB lower.

Isn't the human brain an amazing thing!


Actually, this one is settled in the ear.


Call it the auditory system maybe, but the brain is definitely the main
factor here.

MrT.


  #18   Report Post  
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Mr.T
 
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Default solid state vs tubes?


"Barry Mann" wrote in message
om...
I have a 500 mW transistor radio with 3" speaker that "blows you out
of the room". Yet my Hi-Fi needs 100 times that much to do the same
:-) Of course the actual measured SPL in the latter case is about 20
dB higher. Isn't the human brain an amazing thing!


I think we tend to equate distorted with "loud".


Exactly.

MrT.


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