Sorry guys but I need to vent to someone who will understand. I'm sure this is
a problem that everyone here has dealt with many times: What do you do when a
client wants to do things that you know, as the engineer, are counterproductive
(will create later problems or simply won't sound good)? Some common examples
might be simply overproducing a song by recording too many overdubs, failing to
correct pitch problems, having bass guitar and left hand of a piano conflicting
or replacing the acoustic drum track on a song with a new acoustic drum track
after many overdubs have been done (in a song recorded with no click.) You know
what I mean. Just stuff that you have learned doesnt work.

In many cases when an inexperienced client wants to do a stupid thing I can
point out the potential pitfall and they catch on right away. They learn
something and we avoid a field trip into the retro-progress zone. But
ocassionally, as happened today, I have a client who is headstrong, dimwitted,
inexperienced and generally annoying. Oh, and he is also producing his singer
girlfriend. Thank god I'm working by the hour.

Listening to this guy try to give his girlfriend vocal direction is like
watching some sort of language gameshow where the object is to completely
obscure your own meaning. He has his own proprietary vocabulary and at the same
time she is not a good listener so they make a great team. So, a round of this
game goes like this: It starts with him directing her, then her trying to
execute what she thinks he said, followed by his complaining that she didn't do
what he wanted (repeat this cycle three or four times for each instance of
direction). I can only listen so long before I explain "He wants you to shorten
the last note of the phrase." at which point she says "oh, oh, I see!" What
amazes me is that neither of them seems to realize that they simply aren't
communicating.

At one point these folks brought in a name keyboard player to do some overdubs.
In a few cases we did a pass with a Rhodes sound and another pass on the same
song with a sampled acoustic sound. That way we could choose later the sound
that works best. This "producer" suggested today that we just use both of the
passes simultaneously. When I played them back together so he could hear some
of the clashes, like bass notes 1/2 step apart and the usual things that would
be there in such a case, he couldn't hear the problem. What do you do with
that? Its one thing if they dont anticipate the problem but when they can't
hear a train wreck when its right there.....

All of this would be easier to take if it werent for the fact that later, when
we mix, they are going to expect me to make this **** sound great.

Ok, I think I feel a little better having gotten that off my chest. Thanks for
the therapy!

Garth~


"I think the fact that music can come up a wire is a miracle."
Ed Cherney

"Garthrr" wrote in message
...
Sorry guys but I need to vent to someone who will understand. I'm sure
this is

this is how I handle it as a LIVE sound engineer
When I run into this problem it always depends on how the client is
if they are just concerned to the point of being anal I can usually
finesse a workable solution
if they are stubborn I will step back and let them know that my experiance
and thier vision are in conflict
and that thier work (income) is not worth my reputation
give them what i have done for cost and suggest another guy whos style is
closer to how they (the client) approaches the project
I have stepped away from doing rap/hipHop live shows as I just can not abide
by what the clients ask for
putting out bad work(In your opinion) will only diminish your ability to
get the clients you want later
george

(Garthrr) wrote in message ...
Sorry guys but I need to vent to someone who will understand. I'm sure this is
a problem that everyone here has dealt with many times: What do you do when a
client wants to do things that you know, as the engineer, are counterproductive
(will create later problems or simply won't sound good)?

All of this would be easier to take if it werent for the fact that later, when
we mix, they are going to expect me to make this **** sound great.


Hey Garth,

I've gone through this in my own primary line of work, which is real
estate,
although quite different than audio recording, quite the same in many
ways
as far as clients.

I was showing a recently a devorced woman houses once. Being an agent
representing her, the buyer, I felt the need to look out for her and
treated her like I would my own sister, using my knowledge of real
estate
and the building trades to find her a good solid home. We looked at
one
that had uneven floors, old, painted shut windows, the bottoms of the
2x4's
of the garage frame were all rotted, but the place was decorated
really cute
with nice vines, flowers, boarders etc. I told her "don't buy this
piece of ****, we'll find something better". Guess what? She found
another agent to sell it to her.

What I learned from that was that my job is to advise only. Not to
force my opinions on anyone, even if I know I'm right. If someone is
too stupid to
sponge all the knowledge and experience thay can from you, when they
are
paying you for it, that's their problem. I would advise "Mr. Ego"
once, then
let him have his way. He's paying you. Then when the mix sounds like
****, tell him why it does, and he can pay you some more to fix it.
After all, you told
him it would.


Peace

In article ,
(Garthrr) wrote:

Sorry guys but I need to vent to someone who will understand. I'm sure this
is
a problem that everyone here has dealt with many times: What do you do when a
client wants to do things that you know, as the engineer, are
counterproductive
(will create later problems or simply won't sound good)? Some common examples
might be simply overproducing a song by recording too many overdubs, failing
to
correct pitch problems, having bass guitar and left hand of a piano
conflicting
or replacing the acoustic drum track on a song with a new acoustic drum track
after many overdubs have been done (in a song recorded with no click.) You
know
what I mean. Just stuff that you have learned doesnt work.

In many cases when an inexperienced client wants to do a stupid thing I can
point out the potential pitfall and they catch on right away. They learn
something and we avoid a field trip into the retro-progress zone. But
ocassionally, as happened today, I have a client who is headstrong,
dimwitted,
inexperienced and generally annoying. Oh, and he is also producing his singer
girlfriend. Thank god I'm working by the hour.

Listening to this guy try to give his girlfriend vocal direction is like
watching some sort of language gameshow where the object is to completely
obscure your own meaning. He has his own proprietary vocabulary and at the
same
time she is not a good listener so they make a great team. So, a round of
this
game goes like this: It starts with him directing her, then her trying to
execute what she thinks he said, followed by his complaining that she didn't
do
what he wanted (repeat this cycle three or four times for each instance of
direction). I can only listen so long before I explain "He wants you to
shorten
the last note of the phrase." at which point she says "oh, oh, I see!" What
amazes me is that neither of them seems to realize that they simply aren't
communicating.

At one point these folks brought in a name keyboard player to do some
overdubs.
In a few cases we did a pass with a Rhodes sound and another pass on the same
song with a sampled acoustic sound. That way we could choose later the sound
that works best. This "producer" suggested today that we just use both of the
passes simultaneously. When I played them back together so he could hear some
of the clashes, like bass notes 1/2 step apart and the usual things that
would
be there in such a case, he couldn't hear the problem. What do you do with
that? Its one thing if they dont anticipate the problem but when they can't
hear a train wreck when its right there.....

All of this would be easier to take if it werent for the fact that later,
when
we mix, they are going to expect me to make this **** sound great.

Ok, I think I feel a little better having gotten that off my chest. Thanks
for
the therapy!

Garth~


"I think the fact that music can come up a wire is a miracle."
Ed Cherney

Ya know... enough of these type of session stories could be the fodder
for a lousy sitcom on Fox. Hell, if you could figure out a good way to
wrap it in a rap scenario, you might even interest HBO. gr

Steve

On 14 Aug 2003 10:26:14 GMT, (Garthrr) wrote:

Sorry guys but I need to vent to someone who will understand. I'm sure this is
a problem that everyone here has dealt with many times: What do you do when a
client wants to do things that you know, as the engineer, are counterproductive
(will create later problems or simply won't sound good)? Some common examples
might be simply overproducing a song by recording too many overdubs, failing to
correct pitch problems, having bass guitar and left hand of a piano conflicting
or replacing the acoustic drum track on a song with a new acoustic drum track
after many overdubs have been done (in a song recorded with no click.) You know
what I mean. Just stuff that you have learned doesnt work.

In many cases when an inexperienced client wants to do a stupid thing I can
point out the potential pitfall and they catch on right away. They learn
something and we avoid a field trip into the retro-progress zone. But
ocassionally, as happened today, I have a client who is headstrong, dimwitted,
inexperienced and generally annoying. Oh, and he is also producing his singer
girlfriend. Thank god I'm working by the hour.

I did 2 projects with a duo like that. Their 2nd project paid for my
last new console right after I got it. Take the money. You're
definitely earning it.

Listening to this guy try to give his girlfriend vocal direction is like
watching some sort of language gameshow where the object is to completely
obscure your own meaning. He has his own proprietary vocabulary and at the same
time she is not a good listener so they make a great team. So, a round of this
game goes like this: It starts with him directing her, then her trying to
execute what she thinks he said, followed by his complaining that she didn't do
what he wanted (repeat this cycle three or four times for each instance of
direction). I can only listen so long before I explain "He wants you to shorten
the last note of the phrase." at which point she says "oh, oh, I see!" What
amazes me is that neither of them seems to realize that they simply aren't
communicating.

Take the money. You're definitely earning it.

At one point these folks brought in a name keyboard player to do some overdubs.
In a few cases we did a pass with a Rhodes sound and another pass on the same
song with a sampled acoustic sound. That way we could choose later the sound
that works best. This "producer" suggested today that we just use both of the
passes simultaneously. When I played them back together so he could hear some
of the clashes, like bass notes 1/2 step apart and the usual things that would
be there in such a case, he couldn't hear the problem. What do you do with
that? Its one thing if they dont anticipate the problem but when they can't
hear a train wreck when its right there.....

Take the money. You're definitely earning it.

All of this would be easier to take if it werent for the fact that later, when
we mix, they are going to expect me to make this **** sound great.

Take the money. You're definitely earning it.

Ok, I think I feel a little better having gotten that off my chest. Thanks for
the therapy!

Garth~


"I think the fact that music can come up a wire is a miracle."
Ed Cherney


To be serious, it's understandable that working with bull-headed
"no-talents" is stressful. You want to record good product but the
raw material makes it damn near impossible and your name is attached
to this garbage, if only by word of mouth. My attitude is if by some
miracle it actually finds an audience and sells, it becomes good promo
for you and your studio. If it does the expected and it goes in the
toilet, nobody will ever associate you with it. Either way, you got
paid for your work.



Rick Ruskin
Lion Dog Music - Seattle WA
http://liondogmusic.com

This theme has shown up in movies - there are a few roll on the floor scenes in
"Boogie Nights" that are worth buying the DVD or VHS for - especially the scene
where the guys want the studio owner to release the tapes to them before they have
paid the bill. The only thing I have been able to figure out to do about it is -
if nothing you do or say gets through just watch and admire and at the end of the
day take the money. Its especially painful/hilarious to watch couples go through
the "boy/girlfriend producer/manager" thing however the older I get the more my
intuition tells me to nip these things in the bud and send them down the street
before they waste any more of the time I have left on the planet.

Gary

Steve Carroll wrote:

In article ,
(Garthrr) wrote:

Sorry guys but I need to vent to someone who will understand. I'm sure this
is


Ya know... enough of these type of session stories could be the fodder
for a lousy sitcom on Fox. Hell, if you could figure out a good way to
wrap it in a rap scenario, you might even interest HBO. gr

Steve

(Garthrr) wrote in message ...
Sorry guys but I need to vent to someone who will understand. I'm sure this is
a problem that everyone here has dealt with many times: What do you do when a
client wants to do things that you know, as the engineer, are counterproductive

Garth,
Not to long ago, I did session as a bass player with my garage band.
We have two guitar players and they were clearly not in tune with each
other. The engineer on the session mentioned this condition, twice.
I told the guitar players they were out of tune too. They didn't fix
the problem. We went ahead
and record some tracks. The guitars were out of tune. At this point
I knew the session was doomed. You can lead folks to water, you can
fill the cup with water, you can hand them the cup. If they won't
drink, there ain't much you can do.

Some people just don't get it.

Deaf MM

In article writes:

From a practical point of view, however, you should consider asking these good
folk to sign a disclaimer, absolving you of any and all responsibility for the
quality of the final result.

I've never understood the point to that. If you really think you're
going to end up with a job that you don't want associated with your
name or your studio, simply tell the client that you can't help him
and don't accept any more bookings. Why take money for doing something
that you don't want to accept responsibility for? Better to find a
better client. You don't have to work for EVERYBODY unless you're
really bad, and I don't think you are.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers - )

Garthrr wrote:

Some common examples
might be simply overproducing a song by recording too many overdubs,

Heh, heh, heh... ran into this one for the umpteenth time last year... I simply
said "nope... not doing any more overdubs... time for this to be mixed"... then
mixed it, gave it to the client and moved on. He [of course] went on with more
overdubs... mixed it again, and again, and again, etc... but my end of it was done
so I didn't care what he did...
--
Fletcher
Mercenary Audio
TEL: 508-543-0069
FAX: 508-543-9670
http://www.mercenary.com
"this is not a problem"

might be simply overproducing a song by recording too many overdubs

I used to have a client that would still be added another synth or something
part when he was making copies to send out! No kidding. I went to his house
and he was making cassettes to send out and doing an overdub with each one. At
that point, there is SO much wrong you just gotta laugh.



---------------------------------------
"I know enough to know I don't know enough"

In article ,
Gary Koliger wrote:

This theme has shown up in movies - there are a few roll on the floor scenes
in
"Boogie Nights" that are worth buying the DVD or VHS for - especially the
scene
where the guys want the studio owner to release the tapes to them before they
have
paid the bill. The only thing I have been able to figure out to do about it
is -
if nothing you do or say gets through just watch and admire and at the end
of the
day take the money. Its especially painful/hilarious to watch couples go
through
the "boy/girlfriend producer/manager" thing however the older I get the more
my
intuition tells me to nip these things in the bud and send them down the
street
before they waste any more of the time I have left on the planet.

Gary

Steve Carroll wrote:

In article ,
(Garthrr) wrote:

Sorry guys but I need to vent to someone who will understand. I'm sure
this
is


Ya know... enough of these type of session stories could be the fodder
for a lousy sitcom on Fox. Hell, if you could figure out a good way to
wrap it in a rap scenario, you might even interest HBO. gr

Steve


I had a father/daughter deal awhile back and he had written this song he
wanted her to sing. The song was OK and she could sing a bit, but his
direction of trying to get the 'perfect' take was a sight to behold. He
tried every adjective under the sun but she just wasn't getting close to
whatever it was he couldn't convey. I'm not really sure he knew what he
wanted. Before she came to the studio, he was driven over by a
'co-producer friend' while we did the basic tracks. On a vocal track he
was going to sing on, he kept having me punch in at the syllable level
because he wasn't able to get his phrasing how he wanted it. I did the
punches exactly how he wanted them and the phrasing sounded absolutely
terrible. I commented about maybe trying complete lines or even
fragments and he said something like. "I guess you haven't worked with
many drunks". I didn't quite catch that one right away. See, they came
over early in the morning and he brought over a big briefcase.
Unbeknownst to me, the two of them were drinking beers from this case
for about two hours before it started to show (they hid it pretty well).
By this time, a singer I called in for some of this guy's other tunes,
was behind the mic, taking 'directions' from this guy who was now
plastered. He became extremely picky about things and kept continually
changing his mind, (he really was zonked) thereby ****ing off the
vocalist. To add to this fun, I found out later that his co-producer
driver (there's a laugh... the 'driver' part, too) had 'SOAKED' the new
carpet in my drum booth with cheap beer.

Steve

This is all too much like when the vocal coach and the mom go into
'support' mode for the poor singer on the other side of the glass.

All I can say is, always keep the first full take. By the time the 'coaches'
are through ripping the poor singer a new rectal orifice and the singer
is exhausted... play them the first track and remind them that they were
finished a few hours earlier - they just couldn't see it because of their
own visions.

Fortunately, either it was so bad that I put it out of my mind, or I think
I've skated on the 'boyfriend/girlfriend' thing. I don't know how.....

--
David Morgan (MAMS)
http://www.m-a-m-s.com
http://www.artisan-recordingstudio.com


"Gary Koliger" wrote in message ...
This theme has shown up in movies - there are a few roll on the floor scenes in
"Boogie Nights" that are worth buying the DVD or VHS for - especially the scene
where the guys want the studio owner to release the tapes to them before they have
paid the bill. The only thing I have been able to figure out to do about it is -
if nothing you do or say gets through just watch and admire and at the end of the
day take the money. Its especially painful/hilarious to watch couples go through
the "boy/girlfriend producer/manager" thing however the older I get the more my
intuition tells me to nip these things in the bud and send them down the street
before they waste any more of the time I have left on the planet.

Gary

Steve Carroll wrote:

In article ,
(Garthrr) wrote:

Sorry guys but I need to vent to someone who will understand. I'm sure this
is


Ya know... enough of these type of session stories could be the fodder
for a lousy sitcom on Fox. Hell, if you could figure out a good way to
wrap it in a rap scenario, you might even interest HBO. gr

Steve

LOL

Tooooooo funny!!!!

I would give him what he wants and demand that he dosen't put you in the
credits.As long as they are happy thats the main thing.Some people just
won't listen to reason but it's their dime so just nod and smile.If you pass
up the job they will just go to someone else and do the same thing so you
might as well get payed for it.




Garthrr wrote in message
...
Sorry guys but I need to vent to someone who will understand. I'm sure
this is
a problem that everyone here has dealt with many times: What do you do
when a
client wants to do things that you know, as the engineer, are
counterproductive
(will create later problems or simply won't sound good)? Some common
examples
might be simply overproducing a song by recording too many overdubs,
failing to
correct pitch problems, having bass guitar and left hand of a piano
conflicting
or replacing the acoustic drum track on a song with a new acoustic drum
track
after many overdubs have been done (in a song recorded with no click.) You
know
what I mean. Just stuff that you have learned doesnt work.

In many cases when an inexperienced client wants to do a stupid thing I
can
point out the potential pitfall and they catch on right away. They learn
something and we avoid a field trip into the retro-progress zone. But
ocassionally, as happened today, I have a client who is headstrong,
dimwitted,
inexperienced and generally annoying. Oh, and he is also producing his
singer
girlfriend. Thank god I'm working by the hour.

Listening to this guy try to give his girlfriend vocal direction is like
watching some sort of language gameshow where the object is to completely
obscure your own meaning. He has his own proprietary vocabulary and at the
same
time she is not a good listener so they make a great team. So, a round of
this
game goes like this: It starts with him directing her, then her trying to
execute what she thinks he said, followed by his complaining that she
didn't do
what he wanted (repeat this cycle three or four times for each instance of
direction). I can only listen so long before I explain "He wants you to
shorten
the last note of the phrase." at which point she says "oh, oh, I see!"
What
amazes me is that neither of them seems to realize that they simply aren't
communicating.

At one point these folks brought in a name keyboard player to do some
overdubs.
In a few cases we did a pass with a Rhodes sound and another pass on the
same
song with a sampled acoustic sound. That way we could choose later the
sound
that works best. This "producer" suggested today that we just use both of
the
passes simultaneously. When I played them back together so he could hear
some
of the clashes, like bass notes 1/2 step apart and the usual things that
would
be there in such a case, he couldn't hear the problem. What do you do with
that? Its one thing if they dont anticipate the problem but when they
can't
hear a train wreck when its right there.....

All of this would be easier to take if it werent for the fact that later,
when
we mix, they are going to expect me to make this **** sound great.

Ok, I think I feel a little better having gotten that off my chest. Thanks
for
the therapy!

Garth~


"I think the fact that music can come up a wire is a miracle."
Ed Cherney

"Rick Ruskin" wrote in message
...
I did 2 projects with a duo like that. Their 2nd project paid for my
last new console right after I got it. Take the money. You're
definitely earning it.

I really think what it alls boils down to, at least for those of us who
haven't done enough work to build up a great reputation, is that someone's
gonna hear this crap and equate it with us. But the more I think about it
most people fall into two categories: those who can hear/care and those who
can't/don't. Most of these "records" only get played (at least seriously) by
family members or friends they can get to listen and they either are going
to think they are great no matter what or not be able to hear the
difference. People who can hear quality and know what to look for can
certainly distinguish between bad arrangement/song/performance and bad
engineering skills just as easily as you can hear a great song coming
through even if it was done on a cheap table top recorder. As long as he
puts his name on as producer and yours as engineer (as it seems he's really
just hiring you as a monkey to press "record" instead of for your great
expertise which he obviously can't hear) that's about as best as you can do.

"And why is it the people with the least
talent always seem to have the most money?"

Because people with money have "real jobs" and can't support themselves if
they have no talent !!! :-)

One thing I can say about the music business is the sound guy always gets
paid at the end of the day and the band usually ends up further in the
hole,this is why I gave up playing in bands for a living and got into the
pro audio end of it.I'm not bitter about it......just wiser!!!! ;-)





Ricky W. Hunt wrote in message
news:PsX_a.146896$Ho3.17954@sccrnsc03...
"Mike Rivers" wrote in message
news:znr1060871967k@trad...

In article
writes:

From a practical point of view, however, you should consider asking
these good
folk to sign a disclaimer, absolving you of any and all responsibility
for the
quality of the final result.

I've never understood the point to that. If you really think you're
going to end up with a job that you don't want associated with your
name or your studio, simply tell the client that you can't help him
and don't accept any more bookings. Why take money for doing something
that you don't want to accept responsibility for? Better to find a
better client. You don't have to work for EVERYBODY unless you're
really bad, and I don't think you are.

That I have to totally agree with but it's awfully hard when someone is
shoving a bunch of money at you. And why is it the people with the least
talent always seem to have the most money?

EggHd wrote:


I used to have a client that would still be added another synth or something
part when he was making copies to send out! No kidding. I went to his house
and he was making cassettes to send out and doing an overdub with each one. At
that point, there is SO much wrong you just gotta laugh.

To quote Anheiser Busch... "know when to say when"... [remarkable story!!]
--
Fletcher
Mercenary Audio
TEL: 508-543-0069
FAX: 508-543-9670
http://www.mercenary.com
"this is not a problem"

"William Sommerwerck" wrote in message ...
Might I be comically sarcastic?

I think the "problem" is that you believe you owe these people your knowledge,
experience, and expertise. That they aren't just buying studio time, but the
assistance of a legitimate expert who can help them produce a superior product.

I think I owe them the best work I can do, assuming they dont impede
me. Thats part of it, but another part is that I enjoy doing good work
with good people who know how to do their job well. I like the feeling
of being part of a really good team who is creating something cool
because we all have something to bring to the party. When you get a
roll going and the thing is proceeding forward and everybody is
enjoying the work, thats a cool thing. I think I am somewhat selfish
cause I want it to be like that all the time. Of course I realize that
even in the world of highly paid and succesful producers and engineers
where you work with extraorinary talent as a matter of course--even
then its not always smooth because people have big egos and desires
for power and whatnot.

I know on another level this issue is a way in which I can learn
detachment. At my best I should be able to let them screw up their
project, be able to offer my best suggestions, and then not be
attached when they blow them off. But saying that and actually doing
it are two different things.
I've enjoyed all the stories in this thread of similar situations.

Garth~

One of my favorite bands that I produce has a new singer. He's okay
but at the rehearsal I attended he spent a lot of time talking about
not wanting to "sell out." He mentioned that a lot of his favorite
bands sold out to get airplay. I personally think that I never would
have bought (much less have ever heard of) Filter if they hadn''t put
out a hit. They'd be playing in some dive somewhere by now, horribly
indebted to the label. Most bands need a Trojan Horse to get noticed.

He "really appreciated my honesty" when I pointed out that his band
needed to make a song more radio friendly because the station asked
them to cut one to promote a live show. Typical radio stuff - shorter
intro, put a bridge in there somewhere, more of a groove. None of the
four songs had any of this. I'm not going to write it for them, that's
their job. Whatever they do will certainly sound like them, that's
unavoidable. There is no dominant songwriter in the group so there can
be too much conversation about how to do something. I usually talk to
the guitarist where to fix styles and about laying hooks if things are
getting boring in the song.

Now I like the band and they do take advice well, but the whole
"selling out" argument had me laughing.

I think that selling out is what they have already done by having 40 +
hour work weeks repairing buildings instead of doing music. At the end
of the day, I don't imagine any touring / recording band is miserable
writing a song that has a melody so they can buy their girlfriend
dinner and make rent.

Why spend a work week intentionally not doing music just to keep your
music "pure?"

I think the "selling out" argument usually disguises a lack of talent
and dearth of interesting influences.

He asked me what a producer would do if the band was signed and they
were going into the studio. I said that they would get the **** kicked
out of them BEFORE they got into the studio and they would be forced
to write material and lyrics that the label wanted to promote or their
careers would likely end right there on the spot.

And by the way, I ARE a Producer. Don't wait to be signed to do YOUR
job.

I hope I don't have to hold him underwater until the little bubbles
stop coming out during the sessions.




Kurt "loaded for bear" Riemann

While the term "Sell Out" certainly has become comedic in these times,
it's important to note that, to some people, music is exclusively an
art-form, not a career. And if this art carries some revenue
generating entertainment value with it, then great. If not, that
doesn't make it any less meaningful, just less commercial.
I personally came out of the DIY punk community of the late 80's/early
90's. For some, it was DIY by choice, for others it was DIY out of
necessity. No clubs, record labels, studios, or booking agents
understood us or cared about us. So we did it all ourselves...
because we loved to play music and did what we need to continue to
play. We never attempted to make a cent. And that was the beauty of
it. Everything we did felt totally clean and pure because we did it
for love of music.
Fast forward 10 years... some of my friends have lost their idealism
and tried to steer themselves towards "success." My band stayed the
way it was and "success" came to us. I own a busy recording studio
that is booked solid into January. The singer owns a prominent
independent label and graphic design firm. Our bassist owns a
skateboard company. And our roadie owns a reputable booking agency.
That being said, working ****ty day jobs sucks. I don't recommend it
to anyone. I was a well paid biomedical engineer until the
opportunity to make a living at music presented itself to me.
If these guys are looking to you for advice as to what direction to
take with their music, rather than tell them to write more hooks, I'd
advise them to get better day jobs. Even if they do "sellout" and
write catchy pop songs, their chances of making a living at music for
any length of time are pretty slim.

Kurt Riemann wrote in message . ..
One of my favorite bands that I produce has a new singer. He's okay
but at the rehearsal I attended he spent a lot of time talking about
not wanting to "sell out." He mentioned that a lot of his favorite
bands sold out to get airplay. I personally think that I never would
have bought (much less have ever heard of) Filter if they hadn''t put
out a hit. They'd be playing in some dive somewhere by now, horribly
indebted to the label. Most bands need a Trojan Horse to get noticed.

that could be true...although, in the case of Filter i don't think it
happened that way. the two guys who started that band were programmers
for Nine Inch Nails for some time and that's how they met. due to
their involvement in such circles, i think they *may* have had a few
industry connects going for them ahead of time. they weren't a garage
band with a great song who got discovered. of course, these days
(maybe always) garage bands aren't discovered they're created
(crafted?), but that's another story.


Why spend a work week intentionally not doing music just to keep your
music "pure?"

Frank Lloyd Wright said something to the effect of: better to make an
honest living at something you hate than to make dishonest living at
the expense of something you love.

i think the wisdom here is that making a living is a necessary evil in
this world and you go to the thing you love to make that bull****
worthwhile...to get you through the week.

if you mix business and pleasure (so to speak) you run the risk of
turning the thing you truly love...the one thing that you look to for
solace...into the job you hate all week, then where do you go?

i read an interview with Peter Weller (you may remember him from such
films as Robocop, Buckaroo Bonzai and Lead Paint: Delicious but
Deadly) where he talks about how played saxophone in a band to pay his
way through acting school and how he really began to hate the
sax...now that acting is his living (i know, i know...it's arguable)
he plays the sax to relax and blow off steam.

grass is always greener, i suppose.


I think the "selling out" argument usually disguises a lack of talent
and dearth of interesting influences.

i would say the "selling out" argument calls atention to a lack of
talent, if anything. if nothing else, it calls attention to a lack of
understanding and a naivety about the goings-on of the world around
them.

the thing is that most people who make a big show of their convictions
about "selling out, man" have nothing that anyone really wants to buy
anyway...so they're safe in asserting this attitude, knowing that down
the road, instead of having to admit that maybe they just weren't good
enough, they can instead revel in their wealth of "artistic
credibility".

it always makes me crack a smile thinking about a person of this ilk
sitting in an armchair telling their kid(s) how punk rock daddy used
to be and how, say what you will about his modest life, he never sold
out! and then replacing that person with the arch-nemesis of his
youth: the high-school football team's quarterback telling his kid(s)
about the big game...say what you will about his modest life, that
night he was a king among men!



He asked me what a producer would do if the band was signed and they
were going into the studio. I said that they would get the **** kicked
out of them BEFORE they got into the studio and they would be forced
to write material and lyrics that the label wanted to promote or their
careers would likely end right there on the spot.

wow. i've never heard of a producer kicking the **** out of an entire
band before, but it sounds like an appropriate method. best to stick
to producing apathetic grunge trios with that approach though. not as
many of them and not as much fight in 'em, since they usually hate
themselves and want to die anyway.

there is of course the Phil Spector approach: hold the band at
gunpoint in your living room while making them listen to your past
production triumphs as you sip wine from a gaudy, golden, jewel-laden
goblet...worked with the Ramones anyway.

Robert Pascarella wrote in message

The exception is a COMPLETE IDIOT that does not appear on the radar at
all. One would only hope that you filtered out that potential before
the session was booked.

Normally I do filter the crap out. The funny thing is that this was
originally a cool project brought in by a really good guitar player
who has recorded at my place on a number of projects. He and I do good
work together and we just sort of "get" each other. He was arranging
and producing. He was hiring good players and the **** was slammin.
The weak link was the singer but she is ok and was going with the
program pretty well albeit not knowing what was going on half the time
("you have to tell me when to come in after the solo") but at least
she was cooperating as best she could. Then her boyfriend got involved
and all of the sudden the thing just blew up. The gtr player/producer
has quit twice since then and is now back on the project again but
just as a gtr player and so the whole productivity has practically
ground to a halt.

After reading the responses in this thread I have adopted the attitude
that several people have suggested which is to sit back, do what they
tell me and collect my check. At the rate they are going we wont be
done anytime soon so in a way thats a good thing.

Garth~

No checks.......CASH!!!!! :-)

I know its hard to watch something fall apart that you know you can fix.Its
called pride in your work,but you have adopted the right attitude in this
case.

Good luck


Garth wrote in message
om...
Robert Pascarella wrote in message

The exception is a COMPLETE IDIOT that does not appear on the radar at
all. One would only hope that you filtered out that potential before
the session was booked.

Normally I do filter the crap out. The funny thing is that this was
originally a cool project brought in by a really good guitar player
who has recorded at my place on a number of projects. He and I do good
work together and we just sort of "get" each other. He was arranging
and producing. He was hiring good players and the **** was slammin.
The weak link was the singer but she is ok and was going with the
program pretty well albeit not knowing what was going on half the time
("you have to tell me when to come in after the solo") but at least
she was cooperating as best she could. Then her boyfriend got involved
and all of the sudden the thing just blew up. The gtr player/producer
has quit twice since then and is now back on the project again but
just as a gtr player and so the whole productivity has practically
ground to a halt.

After reading the responses in this thread I have adopted the attitude
that several people have suggested which is to sit back, do what they
tell me and collect my check. At the rate they are going we wont be
done anytime soon so in a way thats a good thing.

Garth~

Then her boyfriend got involved
and all of the sudden the thing just blew up.

AKA: The Yoko Effect.

I NEVER saw a boy friend or girl friend who contributed positively to
a recording session. If you ask me, the MAIN job of a good producer is
to make sure this doesn't happen. He should have escorted "boy friend"
out of the building and made him wait in the car.

BP

Kurt Ballou wrote:

While the term "Sell Out" certainly has become comedic in these times,
it's important to note that, to some people, music is exclusively an
art-form, not a career. And if this art carries some revenue
generating entertainment value with it, then great. If not, that
doesn't make it any less meaningful, just less commercial.

"Selling out" could also be thought of as "buying in".

I think the basic question can be, "Do we want sales of this thing to
pay for having done it, or are we just doing it for the sake of doing it
and not expecting to recoup?"

Business-driven decisions are not always bad for the music. Think
"Motown".

--
ha

Robert Pascarella wrote:

AKA: The Yoko Effect.

I NEVER saw a boy friend or girl friend who contributed positively to
a recording session. If you ask me, the MAIN job of a good producer is
to make sure this doesn't happen. He should have escorted "boy friend"
out of the building and made him wait in the car.

Had an experienced if individual gal here, with some very nice credits
in her career. She had a collection of stuff recorded a while ago and
one cut in particular to which she wanted to add a few tracks to send it
off to somebody. Her boyfriend was paying for it, so of course, he was
"the perdooser".

We tracked quickly and he stayed out of it pretty much except for
hassling her a little here and there over stuff that was irrelevant.
Then it came time to mix. He explained to me that we'd need to make
several mixes so that we could pick out which one was best.

We had added some string tracks and since the whole thing was a little
lifeless with no sense of real space, I decided some fake space would
help. So I fed the strings to an aux to a 'verb and returned it, but not
statically; as I mixed the very first time I played with that return. It
caused the whole thing to swell and throb in places without being
distracting or sounding out of place. The result was really quite fun.

When I started Run #1 of the mix the BF was standing officiously with a
stern and judgemental look on his face. He was obviously getting getting
ready to make some big decisions. The tune ran, I played the faders and
when it was all done, I looked up to see him completely off mental
balance, his mouth hanging open, unable to speak. It was clearly a done
deal in the very first pass and there was no way he could even _imagine_
how a different mix might be better. The artist said, "Wow! Thank you",
and it was all over except for the money. To his credit, he paid me
extra.

These BF/GF producer situations do not generally turn out so luckily.
g

--
hank alrich * secret mountain
audio recording * music production * sound reinforcement
"If laughter is the best medicine let's take a double dose"

In article ,
ScotFraser wrote:
Ya know... enough of these type of session stories could be the fodder
for a lousy sitcom on Fox. Hell, if you could figure out a good way to
wrap it in a rap scenario, you might even interest HBO. gr


The Mixerman novel wasn't enough pain for you?

Ask me in a few months. I just got a call to schedule a Christmas album
for the Choir That Can't Sing. The Choir That Can't Sing has been a customer
of mine for some time now, and they have done a remarkable job of actually
producing and selling disks. If they did half as good a job of actually
performing....
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

I just got a call to schedule a Christmas album
for the Choir That Can't Sing

What a great name!!!!



---------------------------------------
"I know enough to know I don't know enough"

EggHd wrote:
I just got a call to schedule a Christmas album
for the Choir That Can't Sing

What a great name!!!!

Well, they don't call themselves that, but everyone in the office here does...
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

georgeh wrote:

(LeBaron & Alrich) writes:

Business-driven decisions are not always bad for the music. Think
"Motown".

But then Berry Gordy had a musical (at least songwriting) background
to guide his biz decisions.

Amen to that!

--
hank alrich * secret mountain
audio recording * music production * sound reinforcement
"If laughter is the best medicine let's take a double dose"

(transducr) wrote in message . com...

very very well written. agree, except for this one statement:

the thing is that most people who make a big show of their convictions
about "selling out, man" have nothing that anyone really wants to buy
anyway...so they're safe in asserting this attitude, knowing that down
the road, instead of having to admit that maybe they just weren't good
enough, they can instead revel in their wealth of "artistic
credibility".

ever heard of fugazi? their fierce independance has given their music
a sense of purpose and honesty that can't be ignored. sure, they are
the exception to the rule, but i'd still like to believe that if you
stick to your guns and create innovative important music, that you
will be recognized.

(Scott Dorsey) wrote in
:

EggHd wrote:
I just got a call to schedule a Christmas album
for the Choir That Can't Sing

What a great name!!!!

Well, they don't call themselves that, but everyone in the office here
does... --scott

Aw, Scott, you blew it for me. I had this vision of a light-hearted group
of well intentioned amateurs with no ego and no aspirations. I suspect
reality is nothing like that.

You could change your name to "Mixerdude" and write us an entertaining diary
about it

Pat
www.patski.cjb.net

Funny, when I read the first post in this thread I thought of you,
Kurt, as well as a long list of others that to my mind fit the same
broad category: bands that I know and love precisely because they
aren't trying to validate themselves by "tightening the arrangements"
and all the rest that was discussed here. The people I'm thinking of
make music based on their own sense of what works best, and (I
believe) don't bother to tailor what they do for anyone else's taste.

The most extreme examples to me include bands or people like the
Boredoms, Flying Luttenbachers, Peter Brotzmann, Lightning Bolt, Arab
on Radar, Don Cab, and of course, Converge (just going on Jane Doe,
need to get more).

Even great bands that are somewhat more "conventional" in their
songwriting approach by having readily definable verses and choruses
(early Jesus Lizard, US Maple, Hot Snakes) obviously aren't seen as
conventional or even good by the masses or they'd have already
attained their rightful place at the top of the charts, where I think
they should be.

And I suppose that's the only positive thing to come out of all of it,
because it sure doesn't seem to be money, popularity, or longevity for
people doing this kind of music. It's purely that sometimes, some
people do something that really gets me for reasons that may not have
occurred to me previously. Because they made music that, instead of
being palatable or groovy or whatever, made me stop in my tracks and
go "what the...?".

To wrap up my little argument, I'll get back to Converge. Over the
years I'd seen reviews elsewhere that piqued my interest. When I saw
you that posted here occasionally, I bought Jane Doe. What it comes
down to is that I became excited when the first track came on, and I
would have been disappointed and sold the CD if what came out of the
speakers was just normal hardcore, or boogie, or the blues, or Pearl
Jam, or any other of the multitude of music that I find completely
normal and boring.

Different strokes,
Rick


(Kurt Ballou) wrote in message . com...
While the term "Sell Out" certainly has become comedic in these times,
it's important to note that, to some people, music is exclusively an
art-form, not a career. And if this art carries some revenue
generating entertainment value with it, then great. If not, that
doesn't make it any less meaningful, just less commercial.
I personally came out of the DIY punk community of the late 80's/early
90's. For some, it was DIY by choice, for others it was DIY out of
necessity. No clubs, record labels, studios, or booking agents
understood us or cared about us. So we did it all ourselves...
because we loved to play music and did what we need to continue to
play. We never attempted to make a cent. And that was the beauty of
it. Everything we did felt totally clean and pure because we did it
for love of music.
Fast forward 10 years... some of my friends have lost their idealism
and tried to steer themselves towards "success." My band stayed the
way it was and "success" came to us. I own a busy recording studio
that is booked solid into January. The singer owns a prominent
independent label and graphic design firm. Our bassist owns a
skateboard company. And our roadie owns a reputable booking agency.
That being said, working ****ty day jobs sucks. I don't recommend it
to anyone. I was a well paid biomedical engineer until the
opportunity to make a living at music presented itself to me.
If these guys are looking to you for advice as to what direction to
take with their music, rather than tell them to write more hooks, I'd
advise them to get better day jobs. Even if they do "sellout" and
write catchy pop songs, their chances of making a living at music for
any length of time are pretty slim.

(Kurt Ballou) wrote in message . com...
(transducr) wrote in message . com...

very very well written. agree, except for this one statement:

the thing is that most people who make a big show of their convictions
about "selling out, man" have nothing that anyone really wants to buy
anyway...so they're safe in asserting this attitude, knowing that down
the road, instead of having to admit that maybe they just weren't good
enough, they can instead revel in their wealth of "artistic
credibility".

ever heard of fugazi? their fierce independance has given their music
a sense of purpose and honesty that can't be ignored. sure, they are
the exception to the rule, but i'd still like to believe that if you
stick to your guns and create innovative important music, that you
will be recognized.

yes, i have heard of fugazi. i've been a fan for many years.

but they are the antithesis of the mentality i'm describing. they
(meaning not just Fugazi, but those who started/and run Dischord
Records, including of course Ian Mackeye) didn't just stand around in
the garage talking about not "selling out" and waiting and hoping that
someone would come along and 'discover' them and give them a big
record deal with lots of money and complete artistic control, because
they respected their convictions and artistic genius...

here is a group of people that looked at the recording industry and
decided they didn't want to play by those rules...so insteading of
standing around bitching about it, they circumvented it and did their
own thing on their own terms.

it's not because they just "[stuck to their] guns" and eventually it
paid off...these guys put in a lot of hard work into making their band
a financial/creative success. nobody did it for them and certainly
didn't happen by itself. they even still do all their bookings and
concert arrangements themselves and Ian still counts the money after
the show.

i think we're both on the same page here. my point is that the people
who are standing around talking about "not selling out" are in no
danger of selling anything, because they are too busy talking about
their convictions to act upon them.

the irony, of course, being that here i am spending my time sitting
around busily typing critical things about people who are too busy
spending their time standing around talking about "selling out"...

sigh

as a side note, i think that Fugazi are, to quote Danny Glover,
"getting too old for this ****."
the last i saw them, they seemed to be a little tired (not like
sleepy, but more like weary of suffering fools) and a little fed up
with the punk rock aspects of touring the way they do.
not anything in particular, just a marked attitudinal difference
towards eveything that was far more negative than i had experienced
when talking to them years prior...well, Ian at least.

quite frankly, i'm very impressed that they have sustained the whole
thing this long...

Recorded the band today -

The singer was VERY easy to get along with. Great consistent vocals,
the band had tightened the arrangements (why introduce the song 4
times in a row?) and they played as well as anyone I've done since the
last time they were in.

Great experience for all of us, and we didn't "sell out."

We all worked with respect for each other's abilities and weaknesses
and it was tres cool.

Album is next.




Kurt "eating my own words" Riemann

Carey Carlan wrote in
. 10:

Aw, Scott, you blew it for me. I had this vision of a light-hearted
group of well intentioned amateurs with no ego and no aspirations. I
suspect reality is nothing like that.

It can be like that. I do have a live recording (done on a realy cheap
cassette recorder with it's built-in mics) of two guys calling themselves
"Jättesämst" wich, translated to english, means something like "the very
worst". :-)

/Jonas

"Garthrr" wrote in message
...
Sorry guys but I need to vent to someone who will understand. I'm sure
this is
a problem that everyone here has dealt with many times: What do you do
when a
client wants to do things that you know, as the engineer, are
counterproductive
(will create later problems or simply won't sound good)?

Two things:

1. It kills me to hear stories like this, because time in a good room
with an experienced engineer is something I just can't afford a lot of, and
if I could, I certainly wouldn't spend it ignoring the professionals so that
I can "realize my vision". It ****es me off that those without talent always
seem to have the money for studio time, while those with real talent and
desire never do.

2. Having been a graphic designer for more than 10 years and a software
developer for more than 7, I can relate. I constantly get the "That's
perfect, now let's make the font 10 pts bigger and make it bright red!" in
response to my carefully laid out comps. It's frustrating as hell, but when
it comes down to it, I simply cash the check and don't include that piece in
my portfolio.

ryanm

In article ,
"Roger W. Norman" wrote:


[snip] a bunch of really well-written stuff to which I say "Amen"!


Selling out would be more along the lines where
one's own thoughts and emotions were negated to be someone
else's thoughts and emotions.

That's my point exactly. Unless you're up there preaching about
something you actively oppose just to sell records (e.g. a pacifist
singing gangsta rap that glorifies guns and violence just to sell his CD
or get a "deal"), I don't see being better at crafting a song or getting
lessons to be a more proficient instrumentalist or vocalist as "selling
out".

For some reason, there are a whole crap-load of people out there who
think that being reasonably skilled at ones craft is "buying into the
system" and that every masturbatory nuance of whatever they regurgitate
onto tape is so profoundly meaningful and emotionally resonant that "to
alter one note would bring diminishment".

Meanwhile most of the audience can't even hear the lyrics and are asking
themselves why they have to sit through 2:35 of a repetetive intro just
to get to the first verse.

CT

In article writes:

You've got to remember that this sort ONLY gets into the studio with lots
of cash. If they were working on talent alone, they'd have starved long
ago. There's a lot of cash rolling around. A little leaks into the
studio.

The rest leaks into the hands of the suppliers of recording equipment.
Then they ask for (free) advice as to what to buy next since their
recordings suck and they want to upgrade to more "professional"
equipment.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers - )

(Garthrr) wrote in message ...
Sorry guys but I need to vent to someone who will understand. I'm sure this is
a problem that everyone here has dealt with many times: What do you do when a
client wants to do things that you know, as the engineer, are counterproductive
(will create later problems or simply won't sound good)? Some common examples
might be simply overproducing a song by recording too many overdubs, failing to
correct pitch problems, having bass guitar and left hand of a piano conflicting
or replacing the acoustic drum track on a song with a new acoustic drum track
after many overdubs have been done (in a song recorded with no click.) You know
what I mean. Just stuff that you have learned doesnt work.

In many cases when an inexperienced client wants to do a stupid thing I can
point out the potential pitfall and they catch on right away. They learn
something and we avoid a field trip into the retro-progress zone. But
ocassionally, as happened today, I have a client who is headstrong, dimwitted,
inexperienced and generally annoying. Oh, and he is also producing his singer
girlfriend. Thank god I'm working by the hour.

Listening to this guy try to give his girlfriend vocal direction is like
watching some sort of language gameshow where the object is to completely
obscure your own meaning. He has his own proprietary vocabulary and at the same
time she is not a good listener so they make a great team. So, a round of this
game goes like this: It starts with him directing her, then her trying to
execute what she thinks he said, followed by his complaining that she didn't do
what he wanted (repeat this cycle three or four times for each instance of
direction). I can only listen so long before I explain "He wants you to shorten
the last note of the phrase." at which point she says "oh, oh, I see!" What
amazes me is that neither of them seems to realize that they simply aren't
communicating.

At one point these folks brought in a name keyboard player to do some overdubs.
In a few cases we did a pass with a Rhodes sound and another pass on the same
song with a sampled acoustic sound. That way we could choose later the sound
that works best. This "producer" suggested today that we just use both of the
passes simultaneously. When I played them back together so he could hear some
of the clashes, like bass notes 1/2 step apart and the usual things that would
be there in such a case, he couldn't hear the problem. What do you do with
that? Its one thing if they dont anticipate the problem but when they can't
hear a train wreck when its right there.....

All of this would be easier to take if it werent for the fact that later, when
we mix, they are going to expect me to make this **** sound great.

Ok, I think I feel a little better having gotten that off my chest. Thanks for
the therapy!

Garth~


"I think the fact that music can come up a wire is a miracle."
Ed Cherney


How bout keeping and Edit Decision List of sorts. Then when it sucks
you can go back and show the client where he/she made a decision
contrary to what you advised.

The other thing you might try, is just fixing it without telling them.
Play it back to them and if they think it is great, no one is the
wiser.

Sidechain a gate to open on the bass notes, closing out the left hand
piano notes.

I know where your at. Many an experience with such headstrong yahoos.
Problem in the long run is if it sucks they will blame you.

Mike http://www.mmeproductions.com