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Mel Mel is offline
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Default Software to turn a PC into an Equalizer

Can a PC be used as a graphic equalizer? If so, can you set up the
bands with any kind of octave combination you want? (customizable
bands?)

Where would I find software like this?

My quest is to experiment with ways to use rooms and/or speakers with
difficult resonances. If, for example, a speaker box that might be a
little too small for the speaker,.. and the box resonance joins with
the speaker's free air resonance so the thing has an awful peak,...
would it be possible to suppress the signal somewhat at that resonance
peak with a customizable PC-controlled equalizer?

Thanks for any info,

Mel

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David Grant David Grant is offline
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Default Software to turn a PC into an Equalizer



would it be possible to suppress the signal somewhat at that resonance
peak with a customizable PC-controlled equalizer?


Yes, but in eliminating/reducing a peak at a given location in the room,
you'd be making a null more severe at another location in the room.



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

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Lew Lew is offline
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Default Software to turn a PC into an Equalizer

I'm more interested about the "yes" part. What software creates a PC-
controlled graphic equalizer? How can I use a PC to tailor the
signals send to a speaker to compensate for that speaker's resonances?

Thanks,

mel

On Apr 26, 9:43 pm, "David Grant" wrote:

Yes, but in eliminating/reducing a peak at a given location in the room,
you'd be making a null more severe at another location in the room.



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Ethan Winer Ethan Winer is offline
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Mel,

My quest is to experiment with ways to use rooms and/or speakers with
difficult resonances. If, for example, a speaker box that might be a
little too small for the speaker


Trying to use EQ for this is futile because room resonances have a
time-based component that EQ cannot counter. Some DSP designers have tried
to attack the time part too, but they have failed so far. See my assessment
of one popular (and expensive) DSP device that fails to live up to its
claim. There's a lot of technical advice and info in this article that I'm
sure you'll find useful and relevant:

http://www.realtraps.com/art_audyssey.htm

--Ethan

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Scott Dorsey Scott Dorsey is offline
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Lew wrote:
I'm more interested about the "yes" part. What software creates a PC-
controlled graphic equalizer? How can I use a PC to tailor the
signals send to a speaker to compensate for that speaker's resonances?


First of all, a graphic is useless for the job, because it has fixed-width
filters on centers that you can't change. If you're going to try and
compensate for speaker problems, a parametric is the tool you want.

Most audio editing applications will have some rudimentary parametric
equalizer at least.

However, as pointed out, equalization won't fix room problems. It can
help deal with some kinds of speaker problems, but it's generally not
a good way to deal with them. For example, if you have a cabinet resonance
in the speaker, the frequency response problem is just a _symptom_ of the
cabinet resonance. If you equalize it, the impulse response is still all
wrong, and you will still hear hangover effects. The solution is to fix
the cabinet so it is more stable.

Equalization will fix only frequency response problems, and then only those
that are minimum phase. Some drivers do exhibit problems like that.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."


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On Apr 26, 1:37 pm, Mel wrote:
Can a PC be used as a graphic equalizer? If so, can you set up the
bands with any kind of octave combination you want? (customizable
bands?)

Where would I find software like this?

My quest is to experiment with ways to use rooms and/or speakers with
difficult resonances. If, for example, a speaker box that might be a
little too small for the speaker,.. and the box resonance joins with
the speaker's free air resonance so the thing has an awful peak,...
would it be possible to suppress the signal somewhat at that resonance
peak with a customizable PC-controlled equalizer?

Thanks for any info,

Mel


You can't fix a time issue with a frequency fix. It's like pushing
down a ping pong ball into a bucket of water with your thumb, it just
keeps rolling around it. Someday the minds of dsp will realize this.

The other big problem is any EQ at 10 k hz or above with one octave or
more bandwidth in the digital domain will run up against Nyquist and
that will severly distort the phase response of the high frequencies.
Not to mention some pretty weird looking EQ curves as the bell on the
low side runs up against a brick wall at the high side of the bell.

Analog EQ's with wide bandwidth don't have this problem. It's probably
one other of many reasons why ITB sounds so small to me.

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades

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You can't fix a time issue with a frequency fix. It's like pushing
down a ping pong ball into a bucket of water with your thumb, it just
keeps rolling around it. Someday the minds of dsp will realize this.


Time response and frequency/phase response are just two orthogonal
views of the same thing. For every frequency/phase response, there is
one and only one time response that is associated with it. And for
every time response there is one and only one frequency/phase
response associated with it. They are duals of each other related by
the Fourier transform.

So IN THEORY you CAN equalize almost any frequency/phase / time
response.
The exceptions are those responses that null to zero at some frequency
or those that peak to infinity i.e. oscillate. or those that have a
time response that is longer than the capability of your equalizer.
Other than those exception cases, you CAN IN THEORY equalize any
arbitrary response.

Now IN PRACTICE room equlization does not work because even small
changes of position in a room can make a big change in the response.
Also the equalizer may need to boost the gain by a large amount at
some frequencies leading to dynamic range problems, but these are
PRACTICAL limitations. In THEORY, it can be done.

Mark





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Scott Dorsey Scott Dorsey is offline
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Mark wrote:

You can't fix a time issue with a frequency fix. It's like pushing
down a ping pong ball into a bucket of water with your thumb, it just
keeps rolling around it. Someday the minds of dsp will realize this.


Time response and frequency/phase response are just two orthogonal
views of the same thing. For every frequency/phase response, there is
one and only one time response that is associated with it.


No. This is only true in a minimum phase system. Rooms and speakers
are not minimum phase. Electronics usually are, though.
--scott


--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
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Don Pearce Don Pearce is offline
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On 27 Apr 2007 08:13:37 -0700, Mark wrote:


You can't fix a time issue with a frequency fix. It's like pushing
down a ping pong ball into a bucket of water with your thumb, it just
keeps rolling around it. Someday the minds of dsp will realize this.


Time response and frequency/phase response are just two orthogonal
views of the same thing. For every frequency/phase response, there is
one and only one time response that is associated with it. And for
every time response there is one and only one frequency/phase
response associated with it. They are duals of each other related by
the Fourier transform.

So IN THEORY you CAN equalize almost any frequency/phase / time
response.
The exceptions are those responses that null to zero at some frequency
or those that peak to infinity i.e. oscillate. or those that have a
time response that is longer than the capability of your equalizer.
Other than those exception cases, you CAN IN THEORY equalize any
arbitrary response.

Now IN PRACTICE room equlization does not work because even small
changes of position in a room can make a big change in the response.
Also the equalizer may need to boost the gain by a large amount at
some frequencies leading to dynamic range problems, but these are
PRACTICAL limitations. In THEORY, it can be done.


We have a nomenclature problem. You are absolutely right that you can
neutralize ANY resonance in both frequency and time domain by
inserting its lossy counterpart. But room problems are almost never
anything to do with resonances - they are to do with standing waves
which exist in the spatial domain. So any frequency or time domain
solution you try can only ever work at a single point in that room.
Move away from that spot, and your correction is gone.

d

--
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com
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Scott Dorsey Scott Dorsey is offline
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Don Pearce wrote:

Speakers are generally minimum phase. Each resonance is a mass and a
compliance (equivalent to an L and a C in electronic terms) and can be
individually corrected with electronic components or DSP.


That compliance isn't linear, though. Not in the case of, say, cabinet
resonances.
--scott
--
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So any frequency or time domain
solution you try can only ever work at a single point in that room.
Move away from that spot, and your correction is gone.


Yes, I belive that's what I said in my post.

Mark

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On Apr 27, 11:23 am, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
Mark wrote:

You can't fix a time issue with a frequency fix. It's like pushing
down a ping pong ball into a bucket of water with your thumb, it just
keeps rolling around it. Someday the minds of dsp will realize this.


Time response and frequency/phase response are just two orthogonal
views of the same thing. For every frequency/phase response, there is
one and only one time response that is associated with it.


No. This is only true in a minimum phase system. Rooms and speakers
are not minimum phase. Electronics usually are, though.



No it is true for all systems, not just min phase...

All systems exhibit a relationship (Fourier) between their frequency/
phase response (or Bode plot) and their time domain (impulse)
response.

Min phase systems also exhibit a fixed relationship between their
frequency (magnitude) response and their phase response.

Mark



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On Apr 27, 8:37 am, Mel wrote:
Can a PC be used as a graphic equalizer? If so, can you set up the
bands with any kind of octave combination you want? (customizable
bands?)

Where would I find software like this?

My quest is to experiment with ways to use rooms and/or speakers with
difficult resonances. If, for example, a speaker box that might be a
little too small for the speaker,.. and the box resonance joins with
the speaker's free air resonance so the thing has an awful peak,...
would it be possible to suppress the signal somewhat at that resonance
peak with a customizable PC-controlled equalizer?


This does the job very well:
http://www.acourate.com/


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Don Pearce wote:

Speakers are generally minimum phase. Each resonance is a mass and a
compliance (equivalent to an L and a C in electronic terms) and can be
individually corrected with electronic components or DSP.


done went scientific on his tail


Rooms are generally not resonant, apart from a single Helmholz
frequency related to room volume and a doorway.




d

--
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com




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"Don Pearce" wrote in message

On 27 Apr 2007 11:23:18 -0400, (Scott
Dorsey) wrote:

Mark wrote:

You can't fix a time issue with a frequency fix. It's
like pushing down a ping pong ball into a bucket of
water with your thumb, it just keeps rolling around
it. Someday the minds of dsp will realize this.

Time response and frequency/phase response are just two
orthogonal views of the same thing. For every
frequency/phase response, there is one and only one
time response that is associated with it.


No. This is only true in a minimum phase system. Rooms
and speakers are not minimum phase. Electronics usually
are, though. --scott


Speakers are generally minimum phase.


While its not said specifically, it would appear that the intention is to
talk about speaker drivers, as opposed to speaker systems.

I believe that waveguide (horn) speakers and dome tweeters and midranges are
examples of speaker drivers that tend to not be minimum phase.

Any speaker driver whose cone is not breaking up will probably be minimum
phase, at least on-axis. As soon as the cone starts breaking up, all bets
are off.

Each resonance is a
mass and a compliance (equivalent to an L and a C in
electronic terms) and can be individually corrected with
electronic components or DSP.


Speaker drivers tend to be minimum phase, but that's not a universal rule.
Speaker systems tend not to be minimum phase.

The usual fly in the minimum phase ointement for speaker drivers are time
delays, usually due to vibrations passing through some part of the speaker
driver itself. The problems with speaker systems are more often due to
delays caused by sound passing through variable amounts of air.

Rooms are generally not resonant, apart from a single
Helmholz frequency related to room volume and a doorway.


Cars with all the doors shut are examples of rooms that are resonant, but
that lack doorways as such. They still manage to resonate.


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Scott Dorsey wote:

That compliance isn't linear, though. Not in the case of, say, cabinet
resonances.


I meant to say, Don went scientific on your tail

however.. I wish I knew what the heck ya'll was talking about..
it sounds like your removing mudd from a room.. to sweeten the room

a resonating cabinet... you say solidify the cabinet.. you make it
sound like that is the solution exclusively.

Everyone says, don't use eq, but nobody says exactly how to cancel the
peak resonance freq....

Lemme ask.. what about phase inversion.. I have a button on my console
that does just THAT
what if I added the PRF to a track then inverted it... would that
remove the PRF
or am I just a babbling clueless wanna be

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Barry wrote:

however.. I wish I knew what the heck ya'll was talking about..
it sounds like your removing mudd from a room.. to sweeten the room
a resonating cabinet... you say solidify the cabinet.. you make it
sound like that is the solution exclusively.


It is. The solution to cabinet resonances is to fix them so the cabinet
doesn't resonate.

If a panel the cabinet is able to flex in and out, when you put a swept
sine wave through it, you will see one big peak in the response that is
the result of the first vibrational mode of the panel, and more peaks
for the other modes.

You CANNOT fix this with equalization, because it's nonlinear. The
size of the peak depends on how strong the signal exciting it is. This
is because the wood is not forming a perfect drum head, but it's taking
a considerable force to start it bending.

The ONLY solution to this problem is to reinforce the cabinet, stop it
from bending, and make the cabinet resonance go away.

If you look at the response of the bass bin on an Altec A-7 for instance,
you'll see it looks like a porcupine with all the narrowband resonances.
You can spend all day trying to fix it with sharp notch filters, and at
the end the response you get is worse than when you started out, except
for continuous tones at calibrated levels.

Nail some 2X4s to the outside of the box, toss a couple bags of sand
around it and a couple more on top, and you'll see the response flatten
way out. Stopping the cabinet movement stops the resonances.

Everyone says, don't use eq, but nobody says exactly how to cancel the
peak resonance freq....


Depends on what CAUSES the resonance, and where it is.

If you have a narrowband woofer like a bandpass cabinet, it is designed
to have one narrow peak in the response, and no equalization in the world
will fix that. You need to toss the cabinet out and put the driver in a
cabinet that is tuned for broadband response. When you do this, it won't
be as efficient, and you won't be able to play it as loud (because it will
take much more excursion of the driver to get the same level out). But it
will sound a lot better.

People use bandpass cabinets because they are small and cheap and give
a lot of thump with very little power. But they are not and cannot be
broadband.

Lemme ask.. what about phase inversion.. I have a button on my console
that does just THAT
what if I added the PRF to a track then inverted it... would that
remove the PRF


PRF?

or am I just a babbling clueless wanna be


We are all clueless sometimes on some things.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
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Chris Hornbeck Chris Hornbeck is offline
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On 28 Apr 2007 13:04:33 -0700, Barry wrote:

Everyone says, don't use eq, but nobody says exactly how to cancel the
peak resonance freq....


Download:
http://www.linkwitzlab.com/sb80-3wy.zip and enjoy.

Page sb3-13gif, for example, gives a simple circuit
and cookbook explanation to change any F-sub-c and
Q-sub-c to any other.

All good fortune,

Chris Hornbeck
"But of course, when you need it, it ain't headroom any more."
- Don Pearce
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Scott Dorsey wote:

PRF?


peak resonance freq. I made it up. lol
--

soo, resonances can be a problem on many levels, right.. like the room
itself...
I notice in my bathroom if I sing a tone.. and slide the pitch up and
down..
I can quickly find a pitch that SUPER FILLS THE ROOM...

soo this is how an opera singer can break a champagne glass with their
voice

I am an artist first, but with the cost of a good producer, I am
compelled to learn all I can down here at the bottom of the totem
pole.

Thanks to Chris for the 3 Enclosure Loud-speaker pamphlet... will read
up on it.



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Barry wrote:
Scott Dorsey wote:

PRF?


peak resonance freq. I made it up. lol


A good speaker has no peaks. A good speaker is flat across a nice wide
passband, and it drops off at either end.

Maybe it has a few bumps and dips here and there of a couple dB that are
the result of some cabinet problems or some driver issues, but there's
no one one big resonance.

A "thump box" bandpass subwoofer will have one big resonance, and as a
consequence, it basically plays only one or two notes. This is not a
good speaker.

soo, resonances can be a problem on many levels, right.. like the room
itself...
I notice in my bathroom if I sing a tone.. and slide the pitch up and
down..
I can quickly find a pitch that SUPER FILLS THE ROOM...


Right. That's a room resonance. You'll notice that if you have one person
singing that note one place in the bathroom, and you move around the room,
that note is super loud some places in the room and totally silent in others.
THAT is why EQ doesn't fix room problems. EQ them so the response is right
in one place and it will be worse in others.

While you're in the bathroom, fill up the tub. Move your arm back and forth
in the tub... you'll create a wave that will hit the wall, and come back.
You'll find if you move it at ONE rate, the waves coming back will reinforce
the ones going out, and you just get "standing waves" that move up and down
in the tub. This is resonance.

I am an artist first, but with the cost of a good producer, I am
compelled to learn all I can down here at the bottom of the totem
pole.


There's a Scientific American book called "The Physics of Music" that
explains a lot of this stuff, as well as how a lot of musical instruments
work. It's worth asking your library for a copy. It's a fun book.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
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Geez, I wasn't looking forward to a thread on EQing a room today.

The engineer I flew in roughly six weeks ago has been EQing my now
redesigned and acoustically treated room with six hundred feet of new cable,
new equipment, two power conditioners with battery backup and a smorgasbord
of additional products and equipment. I have never worked so hard in my
life.

Pink noise now coming out the ying yang.
All three of us have filters in our ears and at one time three days ago he
was doing some crossover subwoofer management without my knowledge and I was
in the bathroom and heard an associate talking real loud. I literally was
feeling an earthquake or a volcano happening and came running out to find
subwoofers doing their thing but the whole building was shaking.

Again,... he takes everything to the Nth degree and I call him "Hey
Einstien".

My question is how long should it take to EQ a room that has been sonically
treated and is fundamentally a good room to begin with? Subjective question
I know. Actually a stupid question.

He is working diligently into the 4:00 am region of time and is spending at
least twelve to fourteen hours a day. He is slow though and very methodical!

Pardon me if my post is incoherent but the pink noise is driving me crazy.
Maybe I should get out!

Last night at 3:00 am with ear plugs on I was reading reviews by Mike Rivers
and Ty Ford in the same magazine.

Thanks guys for your time and a heads up on both of your reviews ;-)



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Here In Oregon Here In Oregon is offline
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"Glennbo" wrote:

How long can that take?


He is using a flat reference microphone along with an Eq mastering processor
and is tweaking the room to the Nth degree. He claims that most people
don't understand the detail of what he is doing. LOL!
Of course his time is costing me money. But every time I have called him on
the carpet so to speak he has a rational that is believable. He is also an
honorable and moral man.

Thanks Glennbo!


wrote in message
.184...
In the killer robot
"Here In Oregon" grabbed the controls of the
spaceship cakewalk.audio and pressed these buttons...

My question is how long should it take to EQ a room that has been
sonically treated and is fundamentally a good room to begin with?


If you've got a hand held spectrum analyzer to *see* what the un-EQ'd
pink noise looks like, you should be able to make some quick EQ
adjustments to make what wasn't a flat line on the analyzer become a flat
line, at which point you have pretty flat response, and you obviously
want the most accurate spot in the room to be the point where you will be
mixing. An hour of pink noise and EQing would be starting to be
excessive IMO. I mean, if the spectrum display shows a 1k peak, duck the
1k band on the EQ until it doesn't. How long can that take?

--
Remove YourHeadFromYourAss to Reply by email
________ ____
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/ / __/ / _ \/ __ \/ __ \/ __ / __ \
/ /_/ / / __/ / / / / / / /_/ / /_/ /
\____/_/\___/_/ /_/_/ /_/_____/\____/
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Glennbo http://www.soundclick.com/glennbo
Non-Linear Sound http://www.soundclick.com/jambits
Hear My Music http://www.soundclick.com/ThePseudonyms



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Most of a rooms tuning should be done at the construction level. Like
unparallel walls. High ceilings, diffusors, and bass traps tuned inside of
the walls. Most of the EQ should not be done with an Alesis MEQ230 or
anything like that. An eq should only be used to move a few DB around. I
have a Behringher 24/96 that can inject pink noise into a room and with a
measurement mike the box does an automatic EQ with it's internal 64 band EQ.
It takes about 40min to run. I wouldn't think hand EQ of a room shouldn't
take more than a day. How many spots is he going to measure? Who is this
guy anyway? What software is he using?
Max Arwood



"Here In Oregon" wrote in message
news

"Glennbo" wrote:

How long can that take?


He is using a flat reference microphone along with an Eq mastering
processor and is tweaking the room to the Nth degree. He claims that most
people don't understand the detail of what he is doing. LOL!
Of course his time is costing me money. But every time I have called him
on the carpet so to speak he has a rational that is believable. He is
also an honorable and moral man.

Thanks Glennbo!


wrote in message
.184...
In the killer robot
"Here In Oregon" grabbed the controls of the
spaceship cakewalk.audio and pressed these buttons...

My question is how long should it take to EQ a room that has been
sonically treated and is fundamentally a good room to begin with?


If you've got a hand held spectrum analyzer to *see* what the un-EQ'd
pink noise looks like, you should be able to make some quick EQ
adjustments to make what wasn't a flat line on the analyzer become a flat
line, at which point you have pretty flat response, and you obviously
want the most accurate spot in the room to be the point where you will be
mixing. An hour of pink noise and EQing would be starting to be
excessive IMO. I mean, if the spectrum display shows a 1k peak, duck the
1k band on the EQ until it doesn't. How long can that take?

--
Remove YourHeadFromYourAss to Reply by email
________ ____
/ ____/ /__ ____ ____ / __ )____
/ / __/ / _ \/ __ \/ __ \/ __ / __ \
/ /_/ / / __/ / / / / / / /_/ / /_/ /
\____/_/\___/_/ /_/_/ /_/_____/\____/
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Glennbo http://www.soundclick.com/glennbo
Non-Linear Sound http://www.soundclick.com/jambits
Hear My Music http://www.soundclick.com/ThePseudonyms





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On Sat, 28 Apr 2007 22:05:23 -0700, "Here In Oregon"
wrote:

My question is how long should it take to EQ a room that has been sonically
treated and is fundamentally a good room to begin with? Subjective question
I know. Actually a stupid question.


Is your engineer charging by the hour?


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Scott Dorsey Scott Dorsey is offline
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Glennbo wrote:
In the killer robot
"Here In Oregon" grabbed the controls of the
spaceship cakewalk.audio and pressed these buttons...

My question is how long should it take to EQ a room that has been
sonically treated and is fundamentally a good room to begin with?


If you've got a hand held spectrum analyzer to *see* what the un-EQ'd
pink noise looks like, you should be able to make some quick EQ
adjustments to make what wasn't a flat line on the analyzer become a flat
line, at which point you have pretty flat response, and you obviously
want the most accurate spot in the room to be the point where you will be
mixing. An hour of pink noise and EQing would be starting to be
excessive IMO. I mean, if the spectrum display shows a 1k peak, duck the
1k band on the EQ until it doesn't. How long can that take?


It can take years, because all of those peaks and dips move around as you
move the analyzer. Do you want the room flat HERE, or do you want it flat
six inches away?

This is the problem with equalization. There are some low end issues you
can effectively fix with EQ in large rooms, and of course there are some
speaker problems that you can effectively fix with EQ, but room problems
can't be fixed with EQ at all.

The problem is to look at the pattern on the FFT analyzer and tell where
each one of those peaks and dips is coming from; ie. which of them might
be fixable with EQ and which ones can't. And of the ones that can't, how
can they be fixed by changing the room arrangement and setup?

I have known studios that have slowly been going through the process for
decades, one artifact at a time, and have progressively been getting
better as they add some diffusion here to deal with one issue and some
absorption there to deal with another issue and cock the speakers in a little
bit to deal with one problem and move the console an inch to the right
to deal with another problem.

Acoustics is really the hard part of the whole studio setup.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
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"Laurence Payne" lpayne1NOSPAM@dslDOTpipexDOTcom wrote in message
...
On Sat, 28 Apr 2007 22:05:23 -0700, "Here In Oregon"
wrote:

My question is how long should it take to EQ a room that has been

sonically
treated and is fundamentally a good room to begin with? Subjective

question
I know. Actually a stupid question.


Is your engineer charging by the hour?


What took so long for this question to be asked?
That would have been my first.

Poly


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It takes as long as you decide it takes ... or as long as you're willing to pay the snake oil salesman.



"Here In Oregon" wrote in message . ..
Geez, I wasn't looking forward to a thread on EQing a room today.

The engineer I flew in roughly six weeks ago has been EQing my now redesigned and acoustically treated room with six hundred feet
of new cable, new equipment, two power conditioners with battery backup and a smorgasbord of additional products and equipment. I
have never worked so hard in my life.

Pink noise now coming out the ying yang.
All three of us have filters in our ears and at one time three days ago he was doing some crossover subwoofer management without
my knowledge and I was in the bathroom and heard an associate talking real loud. I literally was feeling an earthquake or a
volcano happening and came running out to find subwoofers doing their thing but the whole building was shaking.

Again,... he takes everything to the Nth degree and I call him "Hey Einstien".

My question is how long should it take to EQ a room that has been sonically treated and is fundamentally a good room to begin
with? Subjective question I know. Actually a stupid question.

He is working diligently into the 4:00 am region of time and is spending at least twelve to fourteen hours a day. He is slow
though and very methodical!

Pardon me if my post is incoherent but the pink noise is driving me crazy. Maybe I should get out!

Last night at 3:00 am with ear plugs on I was reading reviews by Mike Rivers and Ty Ford in the same magazine.

Thanks guys for your time and a heads up on both of your reviews ;-)







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On Apr 29, 11:04 am, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:

That's great. You bolt your chair to the wall, and put your head into
a huge clamp, then screw it down so you can't move more than a quarter
wave at 20 KC.
--scott


this is getting out of hand

can't one just buy some good speakers, set a few bricks on them and go

I mean.. this is all about perception anyway
(what people actually hear)

I can appreciate a few tweaks but 1,000's of dollars just to find a
flat spot?

pulease

plug the stuff in and go already..

when you have artists like myself and bb king etc.. that stuff don't
mount to nothing

I DONT' CARE

I can play the piano laying in the floor, that's how good I am

I PLAY IT BEHIND MY NECK, ILL STAND ON IT AND PLAY IT BACKWARDS
I CAN SWAP LEFT AND RIGHT HAND TASKS...

HELL WITH IT

IM THE PINK, WHITE AND RESIDENCE NOISE IN THE ROOM

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Barry Barry is offline
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On Apr 29, 3:23 pm, Barry wrote:
On Apr 29, 11:04 am, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:

That's great. You bolt your chair to the wall, and put your head into
a huge clamp, then screw it down so you can't move more than a quarter
wave at 20 KC.
--scott


this is getting out of hand

can't one just buy some good speakers, set a few bricks on them and go

I mean.. this is all about perception anyway
(what people actually hear)

I can appreciate a few tweaks but 1,000's of dollars just to find a
flat spot?

pulease

plug the stuff in and go already..

when you have artists like myself and bb king etc.. that stuff don't
mount to nothing

I DONT' CARE

I can play the piano laying in the floor, that's how good I am

I PLAY IT BEHIND MY NECK, ILL STAND ON IT AND PLAY IT BACKWARDS
I CAN SWAP LEFT AND RIGHT HAND TASKS...

HELL WITH IT

IM THE PINK, WHITE AND RESIDENCE NOISE IN THE ROOM


when i go in the studio,you see one thing.. looking at me..

but when i pull up on the mic.. i tell them.. better start with the
volume down then pull me up.. and I go for it! I try to eat the mic..
cause...

Im not shy.. I give the engineers something to work with...

they always.. adjust themselves in their chairs inside of 1 min..
like...

ok! lets get it on!

why somebody pay big money to get in there and get mealy mouthed!

I need dynamics and imperfections and sing of pitch sometimes
I like to come in early and go out late...

all these wimpy loop beats and pretty little fun machine drum machine
genies and pat boone licks.. JESUS

I need a LIVE band.. one I can inspire.. players that inspire me...

just spin it till it sounds good.. then record it
it's got to sound good in the room you're playing it
too much diddling goin on if you ask me

I also think mixes are better when the input is driven hard into the
medium
eq is ok.. but why not drive the sound into the hardrive.. I don't
KNOW this, but tend to believe it makes all the difference. it puts a
pulse into what you hear that eq can't do.

and I know nothing about pro recording

why everybody scared
why a song got to be structured and pretty
why not... play our instruments till our hands are sweaty.. then goto
recording the stuff..

i've NEVER recorded cold... it's too nice that way.

did you know that the worlds most played song is Get Up (I Feel Like
Being A) Sex Machine, Pt. 1, James Brown


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Laurence Payne Laurence Payne is offline
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On Sun, 29 Apr 2007 14:12:24 GMT, Glennbo
wrote:

I got the impression that they were *not* moving any of the acoustic room
treatment stuff around for this tuning, and were only using EQ to finalize
the response. In that scenario, I'd want the room flat at the point where
my ears would be positioned while mixing.


Yeah. But what sort of "flat" can you get with eq that takes more
than a few minutes to set up?
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Here In Oregon Here In Oregon is offline
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Is your engineer charging by the hour?

From Previous posts:

Snip.

He is being paid on a weekly basis with all expenses,
flight, lodging, gourmet food, etc. I even paid him for some upfront
consultation fees by sending him pictures of my room and he AutoCAD some
designs for acoustic treatment for some of the walls among other things.
Again,... we have worked on several projects in the past in another studio
and had wonderful results.

I had a nice room to begin but he has improved it and now most all of my
gear has been moved and the walls are almost finished.
Of course we have been doing a myriad of other things as well. Many 4
o'clock in the morning nights. Ugghh! Well that didn't make any sense. I
just woke up

Snip.

I have spent thousands of dollars acoustically treating what I thought was a
good room to start with. The room is roughly 16'x40' and has sloped
cathedral ceilings
with tung and groove wood paneling on the ceiling and carpet on the floor.
The room is unique in many ways for recording that I can't write about and
you
would have to see it. The ceiling starts at around eight feet and goes up
to roughly 13'7".

Snip.

I am the artist/producer and I feel more like a purchasing agent these days.
I have
two other associates here all multitasking almost 24/7 with a deadline. We
have a record contract and are upgrading my studio all across the board with
a very good engineer who is working hard to fit in with my budget and the
equipment I already have. Yeah,...I was going to go to LA (Record Plant)
then it was New York, then it was Nashville and then I looked at all of my
gear and then realized we are going to have to do this all over again and
again. I considered the hotels, blocking time, etc. I have done this before
(major studios that is) and I wanted a more relaxing environment here at my
studio with a great room but lacking acoustic treatment and a myriad of
other things. I truly have purchased it seems like a thousand items as of
late for the engineer who I have worked with before in state of the art
studios and now my studio has been almost completely redesigned. I have
never worked so hard in my life. Therapeutic rant over. May the recording
begin. Uggghhhh! We are still around a couple of weeks away. Remember I am
sleep deprived so anything I have said cannot be used against me.


If I knew what I know now I should have said we are a month away before
tracking










"Laurence Payne" lpayne1NOSPAM@dslDOTpipexDOTcom wrote in message
...
On Sat, 28 Apr 2007 22:05:23 -0700, "Here In Oregon"
wrote:

My question is how long should it take to EQ a room that has been
sonically
treated and is fundamentally a good room to begin with? Subjective
question
I know. Actually a stupid question.




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Laurence Payne Laurence Payne is offline
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You started out by asking:

My question is how long should it take to EQ a room that has been
sonically treated and is fundamentally a good room to begin with?


Now are you saying the sonic treatment WASN'T finalised, and that's
what your man is working on?
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Scott Dorsey Scott Dorsey is offline
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Barry wrote:

this is getting out of hand

can't one just buy some good speakers, set a few bricks on them and go


No. The room and the speakers form a system together, and they need to
be integrated together. Speakers that are "good" in isolation may be
terrible in your room. A room which is "good" as a live studio may be
terrible with your speakers.

I can appreciate a few tweaks but 1,000's of dollars just to find a
flat spot?


For the most part, expect to budget as much in acoustical design and
monitoring system design for a studio as for all of the rest of the
equipment put together.

I PLAY IT BEHIND MY NECK, ILL STAND ON IT AND PLAY IT BACKWARDS
I CAN SWAP LEFT AND RIGHT HAND TASKS...

HELL WITH IT


That's fine, but how does it sound?
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
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Here In Oregon Here In Oregon is offline
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"Laurence Payne" wrote in message

Now are you saying the sonic treatment WASN'T finalised, and that's
what your man is working on?


No, I am saying that we are finished with all of the acoustic treatment,
install of new equipment, power management, 600 feet of new Canare audio
cable, panduit, soldering, speaker placement and crossover alignment and he
is now finishing the EQing of the room today/tonight. Finally!!!!!!! He says
it is just about finished and he is writing down all of the settings for
backup in case any gear ever goes bad. Not! We will be at seven weeks this
coming Tuesday. I feel like we are a couple weeks behind but to give him
credit I upgraded a ton of gear in the middle of the stream at his
suggestion. He never said that I had to buy this stuff but he would often
say it is something I might want to contemplate since we are building a Pro
studio with a room and gear that will get me by for my work that I would
otherwise have to be traveling and renting from other Pro studios like I
have many times in the past.

Again,...I call him "Hey Einstein" and you know even the real "Albert
Einstein" would OFTEN get lost on his walks while he was thinking


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"Glennbo" wrote in
message
3.184
In news:3D5Zh.1326$2V1.351@trnddc08 the killer robot
"Steve Karl" grabbed the controls of
the spaceship cakewalk.audio and pressed these buttons...

His point was that the room acoustics change if you move
2 steps to the right.


Wear headphones!!! You get the same sound at every point
in the room!!!


Yeah, but if you shift the headphones around on your head, then things still
change lots.


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Max Arwood Max Arwood is offline
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You know - what you said really got me thinking. Could it be possible to
use 4 or more monitors and do some kind of computer controlled cross
interference pattern so that the mix position was flatter? Some frequencies
could be sent through the back speaker out of phase by a different % at
different frequencies. Wow what an idea. Neat but probably not very
practical.
unless there's some kind
an EQ that can make one set of monitors have different curves in different
parts of the room

Oh yea, I'll take one of those too.
Max Arwood


"Glennbo" wrote in message
. 33.102...
In the killer robot
"Here In Oregon" grabbed the controls of the
spaceship cakewalk.audio and pressed these buttons...

Yes,...we are not moving any of the acoustic treament anymore.


So my question then becomes, how many spots in the room are you able to
EQ for? IOW, if you make the analyser read flat sitting at the mixer
desk, and then check another part of the room, if it's not flat there,
aren't your only choices to either have it flat at the desk, and not in
the other area, or to split the difference and make it not perfectly flat
in both areas? Seems completely logical to me (unless there's some kind
of EQ that can make one set of monitors have different curves in
different parts of the room), and I'd go for flat where I'd be working.

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