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A. & G. Reiswig
 
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Default Small room acoustics

Okay, I know I may be fighting a losing battle, but I want to check to see
just how much of a problem I may really have.

I'm lately relegated to trying to mix in a room that is basically
12'x10'x8'. There is an open closet on one wall, full of shelves of cables,
etc. There are bookshelves on two of the other walls, with furniture under
them. The other wall has a large window on it, and my mixing station in
front of that. The closet is to my left as I sit at the desk.

The acoustic treatment I have so far is comprised of old cubicle wall
partitions...the type used by every computer industry on earth: cloth
covered foam of some kind. These have made the room a place where I can
actually record without hearing the room in the mics. But for mixing, I'm
not sure.

Two of the 4'x6' partitions are basically flush against the wall. Two of
them are hanging from the ceiling, angled such that they're about edge near
the middle of the room is about 8" off the ceiling, near the walls they hang
down about 14". Two more partitions are in the corners next to the window,
behind the mixing desk and behind the JBL LSR28's that I use as monitors.
These partitions cross the corners, making a triangular space behind them
that I've filled...on one corner with a down comforter, on the other corner
with old sleeping bags.

There are no diffusors in the room right now, and no real acoustic foam.
The treatments I have have, as I said, helped enough to make it possible to
record in the room. But I am wondering if treatments take care of
modes/standing waves? Is it possible to make a room like this a place that
you can get an accurate mix, particularly in the 50-250Hz range?
Suggestions? I already augment mixing with a set of Grado cans, but it's
just not the same.

Thanks!

George Reiswig
Song of the River Music


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Ethan Winer
 
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Default Small room acoustics

George,

trying to mix in a room that is basically 12'x10'x8' ... These have made

the room a place where I can actually record without hearing the room in the
mics. But for mixing, I'm not sure.

If you're not miking low frequency instruments then you're probaby okay
recordign in a room treated only with thin foam partitions. But you're
correct to be concerned about mixing accurately, especially in a room that
size.

Have a look at the Acoustics FAQ, second in the list on my Articles page:

www.ethanwiner.com/articles.html

You'll also find several other articles about acoustics on that page.

Is it possible to make a room like this a place that you can get an

accurate mix, particularly in the 50-250Hz range?

Accurate is relative. But with enough bass trapping you can definitely make
a room that size useable, and create reasonably portable mixes.

--Ethan


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A. & G. Reiswig
 
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Default Small room acoustics

Thanks for the reference! I'm definitely bookmarking your web site. Thank
you for sharing your knowledge.

It's odd to me: I don't ordinarily think of plywood, no matter how thin, as
being transparent to audio...but I guess at low frequencies it is?
Hmmm...would it be of any benefit at all to try to put some angles on the
plywood, i.e. instead of having a single 2'x8' piece, cut that into 2'
squares, and angle them a little bit from each other to get a bit of
diffusion, too? Looks like you would want to cut the fiberglass, too, so
that it sits on the plywood properly. Or would that create more problems
than it solved?

George Reiswig
Song of the River Music

"Ethan Winer" ethanw at ethanwiner dot com wrote in message
...
George,

trying to mix in a room that is basically 12'x10'x8' ... These have made

the room a place where I can actually record without hearing the room in

the
mics. But for mixing, I'm not sure.

If you're not miking low frequency instruments then you're probaby okay
recordign in a room treated only with thin foam partitions. But you're
correct to be concerned about mixing accurately, especially in a room that
size.

Have a look at the Acoustics FAQ, second in the list on my Articles page:

www.ethanwiner.com/articles.html

You'll also find several other articles about acoustics on that page.

Is it possible to make a room like this a place that you can get an

accurate mix, particularly in the 50-250Hz range?

Accurate is relative. But with enough bass trapping you can definitely

make
a room that size useable, and create reasonably portable mixes.

--Ethan




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Ethan Winer
 
Posts: n/a
Default Small room acoustics

George,

would it be of any benefit at all to try to put some angles on the

plywood, i.e. instead of having a single 2'x8' piece, cut that into 2'
squares

No, you want a single large surface area that can vibrate freely. The edges
of a panel trap are obviously achored to the surrounding box and can't move.
So if you make a bunch of small panel traps you end up with less vibrating
surface overall.

--Ethan




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A. & G. Reiswig
 
Posts: n/a
Default Small room acoustics

Thanks for your patience, Ethan. So the ideal surface would be a rigid flat
surface (thin ply?) that is suspended? Or is it just as good to simply have
a 4"-deep box with a layer of 703 on the outside? I thought I saw on your
web site that you don't make the panel-type traps anymore...I guess I'm
wondering why, or what the role of the plywood is, how critical the
thickness, etc.

George Reiswig
Song of the River Music

"Ethan Winer" ethanw at ethanwiner dot com wrote in message
...
George,

would it be of any benefit at all to try to put some angles on the

plywood, i.e. instead of having a single 2'x8' piece, cut that into 2'
squares

No, you want a single large surface area that can vibrate freely. The

edges
of a panel trap are obviously achored to the surrounding box and can't

move.
So if you make a bunch of small panel traps you end up with less vibrating
surface overall.

--Ethan




  #8   Report Post  
Ethan Winer
 
Posts: n/a
Default Small room acoustics

George,

So the ideal surface would be a rigid flat surface (thin ply?) that is

suspended?

Yes, but it doesn't necessarily have to be plywood. You could probably use
MDF or maybe even Masonite. I know that RPG makes membrane traps using very
thick/dense vinyl. But plywood is the only material I've used, so that's all
I can vouch for. And thanks, Nick, for reporting your experience with
paneling, because I'm often asked about that too.

I saw on your web site that you don't make the panel-type traps

anymore...I guess I'm wondering why

Yes, we discontinued those about a year ago. They were expensive to build,
and too large and heavy to ship by UPS or FedEx. Once we developed
MiniTraps, which work better than panel traps in almost every way, there was
no need to continue the panel trap line.

--Ethan


  #9   Report Post  
dbluefield
 
Posts: n/a
Default Small room acoustics

"A. & G. Reiswig" wrote in
:

Okay, I know I may be fighting a losing battle, but I want to check to
see just how much of a problem I may really have.

I'm lately relegated to trying to mix in a room that is basically
12'x10'x8'. There is an open closet on one wall, full of shelves of
cables, etc. There are bookshelves on two of the other walls, with
furniture under them. The other wall has a large window on it, and my
mixing station in front of that. The closet is to my left as I sit at
the desk.

The acoustic treatment I have so far is comprised of old cubicle wall
partitions...the type used by every computer industry on earth: cloth
covered foam of some kind. These have made the room a place where I
can actually record without hearing the room in the mics. But for
mixing, I'm not sure.

Two of the 4'x6' partitions are basically flush against the wall. Two
of them are hanging from the ceiling, angled such that they're about
edge near the middle of the room is about 8" off the ceiling, near the
walls they hang down about 14". Two more partitions are in the
corners next to the window, behind the mixing desk and behind the JBL
LSR28's that I use as monitors. These partitions cross the corners,
making a triangular space behind them that I've filled...on one corner
with a down comforter, on the other corner with old sleeping bags.

There are no diffusors in the room right now, and no real acoustic
foam. The treatments I have have, as I said, helped enough to make it
possible to record in the room. But I am wondering if treatments take
care of modes/standing waves? Is it possible to make a room like this
a place that you can get an accurate mix, particularly in the 50-250Hz
range? Suggestions? I already augment mixing with a set of Grado
cans, but it's just not the same.

Thanks!

George Reiswig
Song of the River Music



http://johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/index.php


Best,

Dave
  #10   Report Post  
anthony.gosnell
 
Posts: n/a
Default Small room acoustics

"Ethan Winer" ethanw at ethanwiner dot com wrote
Yes, we discontinued those about a year ago. They were expensive to build,
and too large and heavy to ship by UPS or FedEx. Once we developed
MiniTraps, which work better than panel traps in almost every way, there

was
no need to continue the panel trap line.


Excuse me for asking.
What do you use as a membrane on your mini traps? or is that a trade secret?

--
Anthony Gosnell

to reply remove nospam.




  #11   Report Post  
Ethan Winer
 
Posts: n/a
Default Small room acoustics

Anthony,

What do you use as a membrane on your mini traps? or is that a trade

secret?

Yes, it's a trade secret. :-)

But I will say that it's a special material we have custom manufactured for
us.

--Ethan


  #12   Report Post  
hank alrich
 
Posts: n/a
Default Small room acoustics

"Ethan Winer" wrote:

Anthony,


What do you use as a membrane on your mini traps? or is that a trade

secret?


Yes, it's a trade secret. :-)


But I will say that it's a special material we have custom manufactured for
us.



j

It's a special concotion of recyled pantyhose, milk cartons and hot
glue, right?

/j

--
ha
  #13   Report Post  
David Grant
 
Posts: n/a
Default Small room acoustics

I knew my pantyhose collection would eventually come in handy.

Dave


"hank alrich" wrote in message
. ..
"Ethan Winer" wrote:

Anthony,


What do you use as a membrane on your mini traps? or is that a trade

secret?


Yes, it's a trade secret. :-)


But I will say that it's a special material we have custom manufactured

for
us.



j

It's a special concotion of recyled pantyhose, milk cartons and hot
glue, right?

/j

--
ha



  #14   Report Post  
Ethan Winer
 
Posts: n/a
Default Small room acoustics

Hank,

It's a special concotion of recyled pantyhose, milk cartons and hot glue,

right?

Substitute Liquid Plumber for the hot glue and you got it.

:-)

--Ethan


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