Zenith made in China now - what is America comming to....- Brian Las
Vegas

Captain Crane wrote:
Zenith made in China now - what is America comming to....- Brian Las
Vegas


I read somewhere that ALL the mechanical CD and DVD-drives are made in
China now--the mechanical internal parts, that is. No factories anywhere
else make them. Economics and whatnot. -fini-

Captain Crane wrote:

Zenith made in China now - what is America comming to....- Brian Las
Vegas

And before his words could be heard, he found a semi-related news item:
from Slashdot, linked to news.com: "Commoditization is hitting China's
DVD player manufacturers hard, according to researcher iSuppli. Between
January and May, the average selling price of a DVD player exported out
of the Guangdong province came to $40.80, leaving just about $1 in
profit margins for the manufacturers."....

Linkage---
http://news.com.com/DVD+player+profi...tml?tag=st.pop


-shocking, aint it?

DougC wrote:

Captain Crane wrote:

Zenith made in China now - what is America comming to....- Brian Las
Vegas

And before his words could be heard, he found a semi-related news item:
from Slashdot, linked to news.com: "Commoditization is hitting China's
DVD player manufacturers hard, according to researcher iSuppli. Between
January and May, the average selling price of a DVD player exported out
of the Guangdong province came to $40.80, leaving just about $1 in
profit margins for the manufacturers."....

Linkage---
http://news.com.com/DVD+player+profi...tml?tag=st.pop

-shocking, aint it?

Captain Crane gives the state of US manufacturing a right bashing, and blames the
chinarization
as permitted by Bush & Co as cause of industrial sickness in America.

Most of the asian made consumer products so eagerly purchased by americans
has been done to allow americans, ( and us australians ) the unique opportunity
to have an ever increasing amount of goods to choose from, and at prices they can afford.

Here in Oz a local store run by some asian company called Bing Lee sold me
a DVD player for aud $80, or about usd $57.
Afaik, the main part of the price paid was for the store's investment in the oz real
estate,
the building cost, and the cost of the oz staff, and oz taxes and charges, shipping costs,
but if they were permitted, they'd have asians ( or australians ) working at asian wage
rates.
The trade agreements now under consideration between Oz and China will
raise some serious issues...

If I'd bought it at an Oz owned store, they'd have tried to get $800 from me.
The chinese makers in china probably only get $10 for their troubles to make it,
and $10, not $40, as mentioned above is more like the real cost of production by robots
and factories all built using cheap labour, some of it highly skilled, but costing $1 per
day.

Let me explain how we came to the situation.....

An oz made radio gram or B&W television cost a fortune in 1962,
and anything decent from europe or the US, such as Quad or McIntosh were
out of reach of most struggling people with families to feed.
Prices were propped up by tarriffs, nurtured by a rightwing govt that was in power for 23
years up to 1972,
and one which promoted stupid wars against imagined enemies in Vietnam,
and one which lied to us, and was anti human rights, and one which
cuddled up to the war mongering and gunboat diplomacy ways of the US at that time.
This was a Liberal goverment led by one Robert Menzies, who retired in 1966,
and who was succeeded by a successsion of Liberal fools.
The Labour Party at that time gained a charismatic leader by the name of Gough
Whitlam.

In 1972, we elected a Labour ( socialist ) government, and we removed our troops from
Vietnam
almost immediately.
The US - Australia aliance didn't fall apart.

That goverment was basically ruled by the trade union movement, very strong
in Oz at that time, whereas the out going right wingers were ruled by big business and big
money.

The removal of tarriffs on imports by Labour offended and dismayed a vast army
of loyal Labour voters, because they all strated losing their jobs.
Big business who always exploit whatever the situation is merely moved production "off
shore".
All of the mainstream electronics
work was placed into the low paid hands of asians.

But the fact was that are many more voters who want cheaper goods to buy
under a freer trade agreement scheme than there are voters who wish to
keep inefficient home industries alive. People say to themselves "Its better you die and
starve and live poor
rather than me."
Consumers have no concerns about where or how something is made, and they are without
morals. Morals cost money. Morals cost lifestyle.

So after 1972, the people began to get the trickle of cheaper goods, and the trickle
became a broad river, and now nearly everything is made by asians.
In 1966 when I began an apprenticeship I laughed at the WW2 veterans who resented VWs and
Toyotas.
They wished all asian and germans dead. Fortunately, most were not so bitter, and they
forgave their enemies.
After all, our governments organised us to fry hundreds of thousands of them to death in
bombing raids.
If we were genuinely concerned about morals, we'd make sure asian goverments
ensured their workers receive the same levels of pay we do, along with
welfare care, and nice democratic rights, but if we tried, we'd be resented for it, and
we'd be told to
**** off, unless we could foot the bill for all the things that make Sydney a better freer
place to live than Bejing.

The alternative to shopping at Bing Lee is to have to pay
an australian, or an american to make something for me,
and its always going to push the price up by 1,000%.

As I see it, the asians are doing us all a big favour by
living poor to let us live rich, so we should be grateful for their efforts.

Some are a bit cranky about the status quo of the world, and see it as injustice that
there are the haves, and have nots, hence the occasional bombing
by the occasional bin Laden type of person, who gets this crazy idea that things might be
changed.
This is the new price we will have to pay.
But it pails into insignificance compared to the national road toll,
and agonies caused by over consumption of substances.

The major realities about life lead me to ignore George Bush, who implores
us to continue the war against terror, but in the next sentence, he asks us to watch him
drive a ball down a freeway.
I have never ever voted for our John Howard, or the Liberal Party.

Patrick Turner.

Patrick:

You long winded right wing stooge! Obviously you have thought out your
positions well and I agree with you on many points. However, I have two big
areas of concern.

First, the USA economy (probably much the same in Oz) is driven by consumerism,
i.e. retail consumption of goods and services. Underlying this consumerism is
the tacit assumption that you have money to pay for what you buy. For most
people this means having a decent paying job or jobs. I live in an area of
the USA (Buffalo, New York) which has been in economic decline for at least 50
years. When I was growing up, people didn't consume as much, but there were
plenty of decent paying jobs and only bums or the disabled didn't work. The
job situation here is now abysmal, and we have lost population (particularly
the young and educated) for decades. People have enormous debts, frequently
default on financial obligations, and yet continue to consume foreign made
products at staggering levels. I work as an attorney and you can't believe
the social pathology which stems from this "I must consume, but can't figure
out how to pay for it" lifestyle.

My second concern is with the worldwide sustainability of human consumptive
levels. I really don't believe the earth can handle the impact of two billion
plus Indians and Chinese trying to live at the same level as US residents.
Most economists seem to subscribe to the grow or die theory of economic
consumerism and no one wants to recognize any limits on resources. For
instance, some experts are now predicting that world oil production will begin
to decline in late 2005. This at the time when the exploding Chinese and
Indian economies are already driving up world oil prices to record levels.
Yet in the face of this problem, auto manufacturers continue to push enormous
gas guzzling SUVs down our throats. BTW, I do not think you can build a motor
vehicle which is too big for the US market. If you put wheels on the Titanic,
everyone would have to have one.

Comerade Pete Reese
Liberal Pinko Left Winger

In message , Patrick Turner
writes




Please Patrick, you really are the epitome of the whinging Australian.
Please don't rant on so much here. We have enough of this over here in
the UK as it is.

--
Chris Morriss

In message , PReese270
writes
Patrick:

You long winded right wing stooge! Obviously you have thought out your
positions well and I agree with you on many points. However, I have two big
areas of concern.

First, the USA economy (probably much the same in Oz) is driven by consumerism,
i.e. retail consumption of goods and services. Underlying this consumerism is
the tacit assumption that you have money to pay for what you buy. For most
people this means having a decent paying job or jobs. I live in an area of
the USA (Buffalo, New York) which has been in economic decline for at least 50
years. When I was growing up, people didn't consume as much, but there were
plenty of decent paying jobs and only bums or the disabled didn't work. The
job situation here is now abysmal, and we have lost population (particularly
the young and educated) for decades. People have enormous debts, frequently
default on financial obligations, and yet continue to consume foreign made
products at staggering levels. I work as an attorney and you can't believe
the social pathology which stems from this "I must consume, but can't figure
out how to pay for it" lifestyle.

My second concern is with the worldwide sustainability of human consumptive
levels. I really don't believe the earth can handle the impact of two billion
plus Indians and Chinese trying to live at the same level as US residents.
Most economists seem to subscribe to the grow or die theory of economic
consumerism and no one wants to recognize any limits on resources. For
instance, some experts are now predicting that world oil production will begin
to decline in late 2005. This at the time when the exploding Chinese and
Indian economies are already driving up world oil prices to record levels.
Yet in the face of this problem, auto manufacturers continue to push enormous
gas guzzling SUVs down our throats. BTW, I do not think you can build a motor
vehicle which is too big for the US market. If you put wheels on the Titanic,
everyone would have to have one.

Comerade Pete Reese
Liberal Pinko Left Winger


The answer is simple. Financially discourage people from having
children. No more child allowances, no more tax rebates, no more
maternal/paternal paid leave. We have to halve the world's population
to ensure the world survives.
And this means us in Europe, the US and even Australia.

Human beings now are emulating plagues of locusts in their rapacity to
ruin the world.

--
Chris Morriss

PReese270 wrote:

Patrick:

You long winded right wing stooge! Obviously you have thought out your
positions well and I agree with you on many points. However, I have two big
areas of concern.

First, the USA economy (probably much the same in Oz) is driven by consumerism,
i.e. retail consumption of goods and services. Underlying this consumerism is
the tacit assumption that you have money to pay for what you buy. For most
people this means having a decent paying job or jobs. I live in an area of
the USA (Buffalo, New York) which has been in economic decline for at least 50
years. When I was growing up, people didn't consume as much, but there were
plenty of decent paying jobs and only bums or the disabled didn't work. The
job situation here is now abysmal, and we have lost population (particularly
the young and educated) for decades. People have enormous debts, frequently
default on financial obligations, and yet continue to consume foreign made
products at staggering levels. I work as an attorney and you can't believe
the social pathology which stems from this "I must consume, but can't figure
out how to pay for it" lifestyle.

We have areas where the same thing has happened.
I have the willpower to limit my consumption.
I have very little power to change the world.
There is no going back to low consumption.
Even if we had an energy source that was free, and non polluting,
the planet would be raped, pillaged and plundered all the faster.
People want heaven on earth via materialism.



My second concern is with the worldwide sustainability of human consumptive
levels. I really don't believe the earth can handle the impact of two billion
plus Indians and Chinese trying to live at the same level as US residents.
Most economists seem to subscribe to the grow or die theory of economic
consumerism and no one wants to recognize any limits on resources. For
instance, some experts are now predicting that world oil production will begin
to decline in late 2005. This at the time when the exploding Chinese and
Indian economies are already driving up world oil prices to record levels.
Yet in the face of this problem, auto manufacturers continue to push enormous
gas guzzling SUVs down our throats. BTW, I do not think you can build a motor
vehicle which is too big for the US market. If you put wheels on the Titanic,
everyone would have to have one.

Comerade Pete Reese
Liberal Pinko Left Winger

I have no problems with your perceptions, and it seems we have used about 1/3 of
the oil
reserves, and we will consume another 1/3 by 2080, if we include what will be
found,
and then have the last 1/3 to last for the next
million+++ years, which obviously is unsustainable, and when we have released all
that
carbon into the air over such a short time span, it may be the doom of the human
race.
Oil production looks set to vastly increase beyond 2005.
It isn't going to peak in a year's time and then decline, as you say above.
The experts I have heard say around 2080.
But what does it matter? 2080, 3080, 10080, it matters not, the fact is we are
ripping out the oil 100,000,000 times faster thann it is being created in the
ground.
I won't be around. I didn't have any children, and I don't feel guilty building
tube amps.

The people of the future may well be *forced* to genetically rebuild the surviving
species
to perhaps breathe out O2 and breathe in CO2, be able to drink sea water, and eat
the rubbish which will have
accumulated in the rubbish tips.

It'll be their problem, not mine.

I have never ever voted for a right wing government, and I only vote green.
This voting pattern of mine is perhaps going to delay the inevitable by a few
minutes or hours.
If everyone was like me, the world economy would go broke, and never recover,
but maybe the lions and elephants and rainforest would start bouncing back.
The shops would have only 5% of the current stocks.

In the year 1,004, the world was a dangerous place, and it still is, but the
dentists are better!

I really don't care about it all much, but I just wanted to point out the
fact that Captain Crane doesn't know it all.

Its no good just blaming the leaders after a country has voted for them.
There is no easy simple answer.

Regards,

Patrick Turner.

Chris Morriss wrote:

In message , Patrick Turner
writes




Please Patrick, you really are the epitome of the whinging Australian.
Please don't rant on so much here. We have enough of this over here in
the UK as it is.

--
Chris Morriss

There isn't much else to talk about regarding tube usage or tube craft.
Perhaps unlike yourself, I have a healthy tolerance for some OT, especially
in the absense
of nitty gritty discussions about tube craft.

Am I whingeing?

I thought I just wanted to give some plain common sense view about the
reality
of our world and not allow the simplistic shallow views dominate what I
read on the screen.

I have no problem if anyone sees me as a whinger.
I sure ain't going to offer everyone some happy fantasy outcome for the
near or far future of the planet if we all vote to keep american jobs in
america,
as well as kick Dubbya in his butt. No matter who gets elected, major tube
manufacture in the US is unlikely to
re-commence soon, and as I type, the low volume production of 300B at WE
has resulted in prices which are absurd for most people.
As I pointed out, thank goodness the chinese make stuff cheap,
because if we made our own, it'd cost 20 dB more!

I deal with problems facing us, and to understand them, you have to
understand how we got to the situation which some folks are so dismayed
about.
I don't think this is whingeing, its just looking reality in its face.

I would agree that the subjects I have raised may belong at
rec.politics.opinions,
but then I have an allergy to simplistic one line statements.

The chinese are busy at making tube amps with which I have to compete,
and any discussion about chinese amp making isn't taboo with me.

I am a realist, not an escapist.

Patrick Turner.

The answer is simple. Financially discourage people from having
children. No more child allowances, no more tax rebates, no more
maternal/paternal paid leave. We have to halve the world's population
to ensure the world survives.
And this means us in Europe, the US and even Australia.

Human beings now are emulating plagues of locusts in their rapacity to
ruin the world.

They tried the one child / couple in china, and now there are
10 boys to 8 girls in the chinese population. 20% of girls are aborted, or killed
after birth,
and the situation is worse in India, fanned by dowry problems.
Its a disaster for an Indian man who sires 3 daughters.

The people of the world need education, and access to what we take for granted.
The poor countries will then, like us here in Oz, then reduce the birthrate to an
average
of 1.7 children per woman, down about 40% from 40 years ago, and still falling fast.

As people become educated, and invest so much time in gaining access to a life free
of changeing nappies and endless school fees, they soon give up their "village
wisdom"
ideas, and stop breeding. They become more materialsistic, and more incapable of
sustaining
relationships of any kind, so there is reluctance to mate and breed, and to
employ anyone permanently. The divorce rate here is near 50%, and far fewer
ppl get permanent employment positions.
These sorts of realizations have yet to happen in many parts of the world,
but the sooner the better, providing it is achieved within a free society.

But while we western nations deny the 3rd world and developing world what they need,

the problems will get worse, and they'll cling to the idea that trying to have
6 kids will set them up to survive old age.
With education, extremist religious notions about going forth and multplying
begin to be seen as bull****, and legislation isn't needed to regulate population
growth,
it becomes self regulating, and folks get fussier about bonking, pill taking, and
condom wearing.
But even with declining populations as you suggest, the survival of the planet as is
for 100,000 years is quite unlikely,
and drastic change will be forced upon the survivors,
and any present short term political right wing solution like stopping
baby bonus payments is mere folly and stupidity.
It used to be that a man earning a normal wage could support his wife and kids at
home,
but not anymore, and baby bonus payments paid to help mothers raise future tax
payers is a joke.
The major political parties have become so alike that they have to resort to
bribes&bull****
to get votes.

Locusts are running amok in Africa right now, and are we sending any planes to spray
them with pesticide?
Or would you have the cities full of the worst world polluters which are located in
western countries
sprayed with humanicide, since as you say, we are like locusts?

Us humans are tenants, and the landlord is Nature, and the rent is going to rise....

Patrick Turner.



--
Chris Morriss

snip
Chris Morriss wrote:

The answer is simple. Financially discourage people from having
children. No more child allowances, no more tax rebates, no more
maternal/paternal paid leave. We have to halve the world's population
to ensure the world survives.
And this means us in Europe, the US and even Australia.


Amen!!

It doesn't seem fair to me,that "responsible" people who don't have 8
kids running around,and another on the way,have to pay *more* taxes than
the people with the 8 children in the *public schools* who are using
those tax dollars..Why should I have to pay (with higher taxes,etc) to
educate some ******s 8 children,and they get off the hook? (granted they
have to pay for food,clothing,etc,etc. for the kids.) I think they
should pay equal,if not *more* taxes,since they are (well,thier children
are) the ones consuming the money?

The whole "parenting" thing is non-existant anymore in the US.Parents
don't spend time with thier kids,don't discipline them,and wonder why
they are all addicted to TV,have ADD,join gangs,or end up in jail by the
time they are 18.It's a freakin mess.

Another thing that gets to me,is the youngsters having kids left and
right,these are the same "neglected" kids mentioned above..How do you
expect them to be good parents,without any kind of role model?

I have a friend who had his first kid at 17?.He's now,24-ish? and has
4,and another on the way.(may have arrived by now,havn't seen him in a
while)I hate to say it,but this guy and his (now) wife are the meaning
of "poor white trash" and they keep poppin 'em out.
How does he expect to pay for yet *ANOTHER* child,when he can't afford
his car insurance (he got arrested/car impounded for driving without
it.) or electricity bill?? Common sense goes a long ways,but some
people just lack that. Or maybe he's hoping that another tax break will
help him pay his bills? All because he forgot about a piece of latex.

I'm 24,and have managed to not reproduce,mainly because I dont want
to,and i'm not ready to be responsible for a *childs life.*
I've given it plenty of though,and so has my girlfriend.We'd love to
have a child or two someday,but not now,not untill we are ready,and can
do a good job at it.
One more note,I think alot of "young" parents don't understand what
having a child is about.It's a _person_,a _human life_,not just a cute
cuddly thing, and you are responsible for whatever happens to that
child,and rasing it in a decent environment. (untill it's 18,then it's
legaly on it's own.)

I have 2 other friends who's girlfriends decided they wanted to have a
baby,for all the wrong reasons.

Case # 1 she gets pregnant because "babies are cute,and I want one"..not
thinking long term..(and my suspicion,is to "trap" my best friend into
staying with her.)
So,she has the kid,and my best friend is roped into watching him
everyday.She'll come home,say "Hi" play with thier child untill he
begins to cry,or needs a new diaper,and she passes him off to his dad
like he's some beast.."Here,YOU take him,I don't wanna deal with it"
She'll come home from work,change clothes and go out clubbing all
night,while my friend is locked in the house for(*literally*)weeks on
end. She *NEVER* watches thier child,and acts like she want's nothing to
do with it,unless it's something "cute".
One night I was over there,and my friend wanted to walk up to the store
to get a beer.After watching that kid for 5 days in a row,I'd want a
beer too.. So he asks her if she'll watch the kid for 10 minutes while
he goes to the store..."NO,You gotta stay here and watch the
child,because I'm going out to a club with my friend." by this time *I*
had had enough and layed into her.... (She's an extremely selfish
Uber-B1tch.) Needless to say,we walked to the store to get beer.

Case #2 "It's cute and I want one."..Again,all the wrong reasons for
having a child,but luckily in the end they both ended up being great
parents.Much better than I would have expected,and thier child is "sharp
as a tack",and adorable. It's amazing what spending some time with a
child can do. (yea,it's called "parenting".)

(Ohh ****,don't even get me started on the school system! (Those
^$$#*!@'s!) Not enough money my @$$!! Whats that new building behind
every school? OHH a NEW GYM..but theres no money for books or
pencils...I see. (UGHHH.that infuriates me!) *mumbling profanitys*

Anyways,I could go on and on,but I'll shaddup now. :-)

Patrick (No,not Turner) Taylor.
(a semi/mostly-leftie.. And I *HATE* Bush,that guy's such a moron,dumb
as a fu&#in BRICK.)

Patrick Turner wrote:


PReese270 wrote:


Patrick:

You long winded right wing stooge! Obviously you have thought out your
positions well and I agree with you on many points. However, I have two big
areas of concern.

First, the USA economy (probably much the same in Oz) is driven by consumerism,
i.e. retail consumption of goods and services. Underlying this consumerism is
the tacit assumption that you have money to pay for what you buy. For most
people this means having a decent paying job or jobs. I live in an area of
the USA (Buffalo, New York) which has been in economic decline for at least 50
years. When I was growing up, people didn't consume as much, but there were
plenty of decent paying jobs and only bums or the disabled didn't work. The
job situation here is now abysmal, and we have lost population (particularly
the young and educated) for decades. People have enormous debts, frequently
default on financial obligations, and yet continue to consume foreign made
products at staggering levels. I work as an attorney and you can't believe
the social pathology which stems from this "I must consume, but can't figure
out how to pay for it" lifestyle.


We have areas where the same thing has happened.
I have the willpower to limit my consumption.
I have very little power to change the world.
There is no going back to low consumption.
Even if we had an energy source that was free, and non polluting,
the planet would be raped, pillaged and plundered all the faster.
People want heaven on earth via materialism.



My second concern is with the worldwide sustainability of human consumptive
levels. I really don't believe the earth can handle the impact of two billion
plus Indians and Chinese trying to live at the same level as US residents.
Most economists seem to subscribe to the grow or die theory of economic
consumerism and no one wants to recognize any limits on resources. For
instance, some experts are now predicting that world oil production will begin
to decline in late 2005. This at the time when the exploding Chinese and
Indian economies are already driving up world oil prices to record levels.
Yet in the face of this problem, auto manufacturers continue to push enormous
gas guzzling SUVs down our throats. BTW, I do not think you can build a motor
vehicle which is too big for the US market. If you put wheels on the Titanic,
everyone would have to have one.

Comerade Pete Reese
Liberal Pinko Left Winger


I have no problems with your perceptions, and it seems we have used about 1/3 of
the oil
reserves, and we will consume another 1/3 by 2080, if we include what will be
found,
and then have the last 1/3 to last for the next
million+++ years, which obviously is unsustainable, and when we have released all
that
carbon into the air over such a short time span, it may be the doom of the human
race.
Oil production looks set to vastly increase beyond 2005.

Unless we find alternative sources of energy.Hemp for one is an awesome
resource.When the seeds from 1 acre of hemp are pressed,you get approx
300 gallons of oil.This oil can be run *directly* in diesel
engines.(much like biodiesel,but without the hassle of "refining" it
(adding lye,etc)
PLUS you get fiber,for rope,textiles,timber,fire-wood,etc..
PLUS..after the seeds are pressed,they make delicious snacks,high in
essential fatty acids,and other things.They would probably be great in
baked goods aswell.

300 gallons of oil,a couple tons of fiber,and a couple tons of pressed
seeds,that could be made into flour,etc for food.
All from *1* acre of dirt.

BUT,alas..hemp looks like the dreaded "Reefer",eventhough it contains a
mere 0.001%-0.01% of the "harmful" THC that Marijuana contains (from
what I've read maruijuana contains anywhere from 3%-15% THC,for "the
good stuff")
The fact is,you couldn't get high from hemp if you TRIED.Yet the
government(s) won't let us make use of this great *renewable* resource.
It just seems ignorant to me.

It isn't going to peak in a year's time and then decline, as you say above.
The experts I have heard say around 2080.
But what does it matter? 2080, 3080, 10080, it matters not, the fact is we are
ripping out the oil 100,000,000 times faster thann it is being created in the
ground.
I won't be around. I didn't have any children, and I don't feel guilty building
tube amps.

The people of the future may well be *forced* to genetically rebuild the surviving
species
to perhaps breathe out O2 and breathe in CO2, be able to drink sea water, and eat
the rubbish which will have
accumulated in the rubbish tips.

It'll be their problem, not mine.

I have never ever voted for a right wing government, and I only vote green.
This voting pattern of mine is perhaps going to delay the inevitable by a few
minutes or hours.
If everyone was like me, the world economy would go broke, and never recover,
but maybe the lions and elephants and rainforest would start bouncing back.
The shops would have only 5% of the current stocks.

In the year 1,004, the world was a dangerous place, and it still is, but the
dentists are better!

I really don't care about it all much, but I just wanted to point out the
fact that Captain Crane doesn't know it all.

Its no good just blaming the leaders after a country has voted for them.
There is no easy simple answer.

Regards,

Patrick Turner.

BUT,alas..hemp looks like the dreaded "Reefer",eventhough it contains a
mere 0.001%-0.01% of the "harmful" THC that Marijuana contains (from
what I've read maruijuana contains anywhere from 3%-15% THC,for "the
good stuff")
The fact is,you couldn't get high from hemp if you TRIED.Yet the
government(s) won't let us make use of this great *renewable* resource.
It just seems ignorant to me.

Its good to see a man get all that talk about a country out of his system.

But your'e basically right about hemp, and there are serious attempts here to trial it
here,
and it'd be a far more sensible crop than cotton or rice in Oz
where water is scarce.

But even if you are right about 300 gallons of oil per acre from hemp,
at 30 miles per gallon, it gives you 9,000 miles per year, so each motorist
needs an acre, so that's 200 million acres that need to be planted with hemp, just in
the US alone.

Somehow I doubt this is possible, I am not a farmer, and I doubt you are.
We grow some canola oil here, and we couls grow a lot of olive trees.

Most folks hate diesel engines, but the latest engines run very smoothly,
so I have hope for more diesel acceptance, and Bush's efforts in the middle east
will surely send up the price of gas.

But as I said, free energy allows humans to rape the planet with more fury,
so hemp won't save us.
Nuclear power seemed so promising, but nobody wants the waste dumped in their backyard,
and they are all fearful after Chernobal..

We still need petroleum for oils, road making, and chemicals, and it simply won't
last forever, so we will have to become far cleverer chemists in the future,
but due to the exponenial increase in knowledge our nation's grandchildren
will figure a way or perish as they always have.
Not all of them will finish up dysfunctional or in jail.
The profits from the streams of oil are currently being invested in all sorts of ways,
and its this amoungst other things that makes America great, whether you like it or not.

America survived the oil price hikes of 1974, and the Vietnam war, without going broke.
Without the profit motive, societies crumble to being like East Germany was during the
cold war,
and if you don't know how, I suggest you read a few books about all that.

Patrick Turner.

Patrick Turner writes:
"........I am a realist, not an escapist..........."

Not me, I'm still trying to escape contemporary reality. That's one of the
reasons why I like tube audio with vintage tubes and transformers. My
ultimate goal is to live in the world I grew up in.

Pete Reese
Time Traveler

How is Australian politics like tube audio?

Liberal Party = conservative
Fixed bias = adjustable bias(usually)

A strange mathematical fact:
If families were forced to stop having children after the first male child is
born, the male/female ratio will still be %50/%50

Thirty years ago it was felt that, when the world's population exceeded 6
billion, the game was over for humanity. I believe the current world
population is about 6.4 billion. It is already too late.

Pete Reese
Doomsayer

Patrick Turner wrote:
BUT,alas..hemp looks like the dreaded "Reefer",eventhough it contains a
mere 0.001%-0.01% of the "harmful" THC that Marijuana contains (from
what I've read maruijuana contains anywhere from 3%-15% THC,for "the
good stuff")
The fact is,you couldn't get high from hemp if you TRIED.Yet the
government(s) won't let us make use of this great *renewable* resource.
It just seems ignorant to me.


Its good to see a man get all that talk about a country out of his system.

But your'e basically right about hemp, and there are serious attempts here to trial it
here,
and it'd be a far more sensible crop than cotton or rice in Oz
where water is scarce.

There are organizations in the US trying to make hemp a legal crop,and I
*think* thers a crop somewhere in the midwest somewhere that is used for
"research"..

But even if you are right about 300 gallons of oil per acre from hemp,
at 30 miles per gallon, it gives you 9,000 miles per year, so each motorist
needs an acre, so that's 200 million acres that need to be planted with hemp, just in
the US alone.

Somehow I doubt this is possible, I am not a farmer, and I doubt you are.
We grow some canola oil here, and we couls grow a lot of olive trees.


I'm not saying hemp would be an end-all-be-all,but it could atleast
help. Biodiesel is starting to take off a bit in the states,in alot of
places there's atleast one station with it available.


Most folks hate diesel engines, but the latest engines run very smoothly,
so I have hope for more diesel acceptance, and Bush's efforts in the middle east
will surely send up the price of gas.

I dislike them for thier smell,other than that they are great.I've heard
diesels running on biodiesel smell like "french fries"..I think I could
deal with that. ;-)

But as I said, free energy allows humans to rape the planet with more fury,
so hemp won't save us.
Nuclear power seemed so promising, but nobody wants the waste dumped in their backyard,
and they are all fearful after Chernobal..

Nuclear power seems great,in theory..but it scares me..the old Trojan
plant isn't too far away from here..
I think we should all look into alternative energy,again not to do away
with all other means of generating electrons,to make our pretty tubes
glow,but to help out a bit,lower our dependance on nuclear,coal,etc.

We still need petroleum for oils, road making, and chemicals, and it simply won't
last forever,

Exactly! we still need it for other stuff,so we should look for
alternatives,so there will still be gasoline,and oil,and roads,etc in
the future,and hopefully at affordable prices.

so we will have to become far cleverer chemists in the future,
but due to the exponenial increase in knowledge our nation's grandchildren
will figure a way or perish as they always have.
Not all of them will finish up dysfunctional or in jail.

True.

The profits from the streams of oil are currently being invested in all sorts of ways,
and its this amoungst other things that makes America great, whether you like it or not.

Don't get me wrong,America is a great country.Sometimes it just seems
that things are seriously askew.

America survived the oil price hikes of 1974, and the Vietnam war, without going broke.
Without the profit motive, societies crumble to being like East Germany was during the
cold war,
and if you don't know how, I suggest you read a few books about all that.

Patrick Turner.

Don wrote:

How is Australian politics like tube audio?

Liberal Party = conservative

= Republican = the worst transistor sound you'll ever hear.


Fixed bias = adjustable bias(usually)

= not any Oz political party.

There is no Oz political equivalent to tube sound.




A strange mathematical fact:
If families were forced to stop having children after the first male child is
born, the male/female ratio will still be %50/%50

?
What if ppl had 3 girls to start with?

There is equal chance that one'd first born is male, or female,
and those that had males would be forced to quit, ( sterilised ) , and those that
had a girl would
continue on until they had a boy.

We'd end up with more girls.

This would delight the boys when they grow up into blokes, because if a sheila
won't,
perhaps her sister will, or perhaps polygamy will flourish.

But alas, we now have a serious imbalance of more males in China and India,
and they don't wanna talk about it.

Patrick Turner.

PReese270 wrote:

Thirty years ago it was felt that, when the world's population exceeded 6
billion, the game was over for humanity. I believe the current world
population is about 6.4 billion. It is already too late.

Pete Reese
Doomsayer

I believe you have not thought out your position as well as possible.

Try working out the area in square metres of the earth's surface,
and the % areas of sea, frozen icy wastes, deserts, arable lands, forests, et
all.
Then you can work out how much area of the world is your share,
by dividing total area by 6.3 billion.
An old school math book will have the simple formula, and diameter of the
earth.

This area of the world you own has an atmosphere which exerts
14.7 lb per square inch of pressure, and from that you can work out
how much air God gave you to breathe this week, by multiplying
pressure x area.
Its quite a few tonnes of air.

Whatever sea, land, or air you have under your ownership is being reduced
slowly because the population is increasing. Next week there will be less, so
the fences around your property
are as if on wheels.

So if you work out what that stinking automobile of yours does to your
allotment of air, and what your share of the power station does, and work out
the effect
of the chemicals, and mining going on on your block on your behalf,
then you can guage your own personal effect on your own piece of the
environment, in terms of
parts per million of contamination.
Assume everyone is equally attrocious or benign as yourself, and that we all
have equzal sized blocks, and we
all have the same piles of rubbish. Its all hyperthetical, but at least it
gives us a starting point.

After reflection on how your land is hardly a virgin anymore, compare what an
average Chinese
or Indian is doing to their same sized block.

Let me know when you have considered your calculations carefully, before you
conclude there
ain't anymore room for couples in love to produce more offspring.
And explain it all to the next couple you see arm in arm, and see what
response you get.

I hear they got a nasty storm in Florida; is that because there is too much
hot air?

Patrick Turner.

Don't get me wrong,America is a great country.Sometimes it just seems
that things are seriously askew.

I have to agree. But greatness doesn't equate to rightness and perfect ethics.
Some of what each of our great countries do is very wrong.

A country is like any man, not perfect.

Patrick Turner.

A strange mathematical fact:
If families were forced to stop having children after the first male child
is
born, the male/female ratio will still be %50/%50

?
What if ppl had 3 girls to start with?

There is equal chance that one'd first born is male, or female,
and those that had males would be forced to quit, ( sterilised ) , and those
tha
t
had a girl would
continue on until they had a boy.

We'd end up with more girls.

This would delight the boys when they grow up into blokes, because if a
sheila
won't,
perhaps her sister will, or perhaps polygamy will flourish.

But alas, we now have a serious imbalance of more males in China and India,
and they don't wanna talk about it.

Patrick Turner.


Well, I said it was strange.
I learned this in Discrete Math, if you really want to get confused, google
the Monty Hall problem.

To simplify things, say all births occur at the same time in each cycle.
On the whole, 50% male, %50 female. Half the families stop having kids.
Sex ratio of infants, 50/50.

Next cycle: Breeding population is 1/2 as large as before. 50% m, 50% f
births. new births: 50/50 . Total population ratio: 50/50.

etc.


from http://www.gnxp.com/MT2/archives/000608.html

"Suppose the probability that a birth is male is K. I assume that the
probability is the same for all births in all families (I’ll come back to this
point). Now consider the total number, A, of first-born children in the
population, the total number, B, of second-born children, and so on. The
probability K applies independently to all births, so the expected number of
first-born males is KA, the expected number of second-born males is KB, and so
on. The total expected number of all males is therefore K(A + B + C....). But
the expected total number of all children is simply A + B + C...., so the
ratio of all males to all children reduces to K. There is no ‘excess’ of
males. This reasoning applies quite regardless of whether parents ‘stop at a
boy’ or follow any other such rule.

If not convinced by this, consider a population of N families, all of whom
apply the simple rule: ‘have children until a son is born, then stop’. For
simplicity I will assume that the probability that a birth is male is exactly
1/2. We therefore expect half of the families (N/2) to have a son at the first
attempt, half of the remainder (N/4) to have a son at the second attempt, and
so on. The total expected number of male births is therefore N(1/2 + 1/4 +
1/8...), and the expected number of all births is N(1/2 + 2/4 + 3/8 + 4/16 +
5/32....). It can be proved that the ratio of male births to all births
converges on 1/2 as these series are extended."

-Don

So thats a great attitude who really cares if the US manufactures tubes again,
you can't afford to buy them anyway. As far as W well he's got my vote and Boys
you'll be looking at 4 more years Bush 55% Kerry 41% nader 4%. The era of
foolish americans thinking the're worth $20/ hour
This foolish perception is long gone. It's a world market and the world
standard of Living is going up and the US is going down thusly maybe not as we
wanted it but the world will be moving more towards the US standard of living.
The biggest part of this is demands made by unions and us as you (I believe)
pointed out making too many ppl and more and more ppl in the job market.. Where
does it end. How can you blame the president for that? He inherited a sagging
economy that started to tank in late 98. I know I was watching as Motorola was
treading water and Chris Galvins idea of suicide shooting yourself in the foot
and slowly bleeding to death.Thank GOD they finally dumped him but too late for
me. 11 years there and it sounded like a great idea in 1990. BTW Bush has done
a very good job on the economy. Job hirings going down?, it's a saturated
market right now. I see a real drop in our standard of living here in the US.
It doesn't have to be catostrophic. I love how people criticize the Gov't about
the deficit. Gosh they run it just like the consumers run their fuinances...
overextended to the max on credit and really don't own anything they have.I
(not being smug) have always believed in living within my means. Our house will
be paid off in 3 years the total w/ Escrow is 650/month. It';s a decent cape
cod,w/ basement. We raised 6 kids here. WAIT before you jump. My wife had 3,
and my x wife didn't want the house or the 3kids which worked out fine for me.
So we raised 6 lost one in 2000. If you live in you means (I do tithed 10% to
church also) It's amazing to see ppl say they need more money, but they can't
even handle what they make. The more they make ..the more they blow and get
deeper and deeper in debt. If we America and the world don't wake up it'll be
ugly. If you keep increasing the population you will run out of room. Everybody
has to have the latest item and throws everything away. SO the landfills are
full. It just boggles the mind. I can't tell you how many bikes, computers etc
you see in the garbage. It's just insane. I've picked up several and gave them
to family after repaired. I found a Celeron 450 Slot 1 motherboard with a bunch
of games anda good monitor with it. Gave it to one of my kids. Call me a
Staunch conservative I don't care. I see this has really gone OT, but thats my
spin on it. One final comment. Ppl criticize the US (Bush) for what he did
after 9-11, We saw how Bill Clinton responded to the numerous attacks on US
Soil (embassies, USS Cole WTC bombing in 93, etc.) . This election will be a
decision to see which direction we will pursue. I fear if John Kerry wins it'll
be 1976 - 1980 all over again. We did what needed to be done and sadly the
extremists will convert or kill the infidels. Nobody can change that.
DagW00d
"Tigers Older brother DAG"

Well i agree with some of the things you said about a throw - away
society and gimme gimme gimme.
Bush has only created 6 - 7.00 hr jobs. Thats right mostly Wallmart and
Kmart, Target Jobs. That means nothing in my book. I buy mostly used
things in my life as I dont need every new fangled gadget thats out in
the world today. I drive a 1976 ford LTD and I have a small 2 bedroom
home that will be payed off in 12 yrs... Everything is payed off. But
Quality Jobs in this world are Very much lagging why well because of
China and Taiwan , Mexico... America has lost its cutting edge in the
world of American Goods... and American Jobs... Watch out I have a
feeling that America will have another Great Depression like they did in
1929.
Get used to 3.00 hr jobs comming soon to the USA.

Zenith- made in China....At some point the Chinese will nationalize foreign
holdings in their country.....China is still a communist country.....George


"Captain Crane" wrote in message
...
Well i agree with some of the things you said about a throw - away
society and gimme gimme gimme.
Bush has only created 6 - 7.00 hr jobs. Thats right mostly Wallmart and
Kmart, Target Jobs. That means nothing in my book. I buy mostly used
things in my life as I dont need every new fangled gadget thats out in
the world today. I drive a 1976 ford LTD and I have a small 2 bedroom
home that will be payed off in 12 yrs... Everything is payed off. But
Quality Jobs in this world are Very much lagging why well because of
China and Taiwan , Mexico... America has lost its cutting edge in the
world of American Goods... and American Jobs... Watch out I have a
feeling that America will have another Great Depression like they did in
1929.
Get used to 3.00 hr jobs comming soon to the USA.

Bring back American Zenith Again like the Good ol Days....

Chris Morriss wrote:


The answer is simple. Financially discourage people from having
children. No more child allowances, no more tax rebates, no more
maternal/paternal paid leave. We have to halve the world's population
to ensure the world survives.
And this means us in Europe, the US and even Australia.

No it doesn't. You could eliminate the populations of the US and W. Europe
and the world population would still be up at the end of a decade.

Western Europe and the USA are not even replacing
current population. It ain't us that're doing the locust
impressions. The places that are doing it don't have any of
those benefits, anyhow.

Eliminating newsgroup posters who can't be bothered to check
their facts might be a good start ;-)

best

Andy

I owned Zenith stock when it declared to be bankrupt.
I wish who ever is using the Zenith name now the best
of luck. A compnay name doesn't mean as much as it
used to.

I'm going to buy a Tivo,
Scott

george craig wrote:

Zenith- made in China....At some point the Chinese will nationalize foreign
holdings in their country.....China is still a communist country.....George


"Captain Crane" wrote in message
...


Well i agree with some of the things you said about a throw - away
society and gimme gimme gimme.
Bush has only created 6 - 7.00 hr jobs. Thats right mostly Wallmart and
Kmart, Target Jobs. That means nothing in my book. I buy mostly used
things in my life as I dont need every new fangled gadget thats out in
the world today. I drive a 1976 ford LTD and I have a small 2 bedroom
home that will be payed off in 12 yrs... Everything is payed off. But
Quality Jobs in this world are Very much lagging why well because of
China and Taiwan , Mexico... America has lost its cutting edge in the
world of American Goods... and American Jobs... Watch out I have a
feeling that America will have another Great Depression like they did in
1929.
Get used to 3.00 hr jobs comming soon to the USA.

In message , Andy Cowley
writes
Chris Morriss wrote:


The answer is simple. Financially discourage people from having
children. No more child allowances, no more tax rebates, no more
maternal/paternal paid leave. We have to halve the world's population
to ensure the world survives.
And this means us in Europe, the US and even Australia.

No it doesn't. You could eliminate the populations of the US and W. Europe
and the world population would still be up at the end of a decade.

Western Europe and the USA are not even replacing
current population. It ain't us that're doing the locust
impressions. The places that are doing it don't have any of
those benefits, anyhow.

Eliminating newsgroup posters who can't be bothered to check
their facts might be a good start ;-)

best

Andy

Unfortunately the UK population has increased considerably over the last
ten years. Whether that's due to indigenous population growth, or
unrestricted immigration doesn't matter, there's still too many of us
here.

The USA is still having population growth, as is western Europe. Just
because Germany and Italy are falling hasn't affected that.

--
Chris Morriss

In message , Andy Cowley
writes
Chris Morriss wrote:


The answer is simple. Financially discourage people from having
children. No more child allowances, no more tax rebates, no more
maternal/paternal paid leave. We have to halve the world's population
to ensure the world survives.
And this means us in Europe, the US and even Australia.

No it doesn't. You could eliminate the populations of the US and W. Europe
and the world population would still be up at the end of a decade.

Western Europe and the USA are not even replacing
current population. It ain't us that're doing the locust
impressions. The places that are doing it don't have any of
those benefits, anyhow.

Eliminating newsgroup posters who can't be bothered to check
their facts might be a good start ;-)

best

Andy

UK pop forecast for 65 million by 2025, see
http://www.guardian.co.uk/population...594319,00.html

(I though that you'd believe a left-wing source like the Guardian more
than my right-wing diatribes!)
--
Chris Morriss

Zenith was taken over by LG of Korea as they drove it into the ground.
All assets were raped.
Unfortunately another great example of corporate greed.
Shareholders lost everything.




I owned Zenith stock when it declared to be bankrupt.
I wish who ever is using the Zenith name now the best
of luck. A compnay name doesn't mean as much as it
used to.

I'm going to buy a Tivo,
Scott

Good ol Zenith Rest in Peace my friend

I want my american made Zenith again

I still have Zenith Tubes for Memories.....
Thanks for the Memories - Bob Hope