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#1
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Amps, more argument!
Sorry to re-hash a tired argument but I've got to get this out. I've been to 3
shops in the last 2 days, and I've been hearing a lot of the same lingo from these sales people. They say that amp 1 is "warmer" than amp 2, or that amp 2 has better detail than amp 1, but sounds less "dynamic". I'm putting a Dynaudio System 240 GT in my car, I've already got an Eclipse CD8443 deck, all I need is an amp. Can someone present me with any reason why one should be better than another? Any help would be great. |
#2
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Amps, more argument!
it seems to me it's all about the distortion ratings of the amp as to how
clean it sounds..trust your ears "Steve Grauman" wrote in message ... Sorry to re-hash a tired argument but I've got to get this out. I've been to 3 shops in the last 2 days, and I've been hearing a lot of the same lingo from these sales people. They say that amp 1 is "warmer" than amp 2, or that amp 2 has better detail than amp 1, but sounds less "dynamic". I'm putting a Dynaudio System 240 GT in my car, I've already got an Eclipse CD8443 deck, all I need is an amp. Can someone present me with any reason why one should be better than another? Any help would be great. |
#3
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Amps, more argument!
Sorry to re-hash a tired argument but I've got to get this out. I've been
to 3 shops in the last 2 days, and I've been hearing a lot of the same lingo from these sales people. They say that amp 1 is "warmer" than amp 2, or that amp 2 has better detail than amp 1, but sounds less "dynamic". "Warmth" is often a subjective term attributed to the audible presence of second harmonics in the signal (this is well-accepted in the literature). However, I don't know of any modern day solid state car amplifier that has been tested (or that I have tested) with audible levels of harmonic distortion when operating in its linear range (except for some rare instances at milliwatt levels). "Better detail" is a bit more vague. I suppose it can mean more precise, but again, distortion levels are too low for that to be the case. If instead they mean better high frequency response (which often leads to more "presence"), then I'm not sure how they can come to that conclusion either, because you won't find any of these amps with a significant departure from "flat" in the high frequency range. By "significant" I mean it's not detectable. It can be measured, and in fact can be rather substantial (even on the order of -3dB or more by the time you're at 20kHz). But it's not detectable because it's difficult for humans to detect narrowband frequency response dips (we can actually detect peaks better than dips!) of that magnitude, at a freq band that we're insensitive to anyway. "Less dynamic" distinctly refers to the dynamic range of the amplifier. All of the amplifiers in question have a dynamic range several orders of magnitude above what's generally considered overkill. In a car environment, dynamic range is limited by road noise anyway. There's one way to dramatically limit dynamic range, however, and that's by driving your amplifier into clipping. I'm putting a Dynaudio System 240 GT in my car, I've already got an Eclipse CD8443 deck, all I need is an amp. Can someone present me with any reason why one should be better than another? Any help would be great. Feature set (crossovers, versatile wiring ability, etc), reliability, power output, number of channels, price, efficiency, size, aesthetics... |
#4
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Amps, more argument!
Feature set (crossovers, versatile wiring ability, etc), reliability, power
output, number of channels, price, efficiency, size, aesthetics... I'm just looking for an accurate amp that won't color the sound drastically (if at all). I've got up to about $600 to commit to the amp, but because dealers can often sell for well below MSRP, it's hard to find an amp based on price alone. For instance, the Dynaudio set I'm buying has an MSRP of around $1,100, but I'm paying less than $800 for it. |
#5
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Amps, more argument!
I'm just looking for an accurate amp that won't color the sound drastically
(if at all). As long as you operate that amp within it's linear range that should be no problem. In other words don't clip it. Todays SS amps are all accurate to within acceptable standards for human hearing. So any differences that do exist cannot be picked up on by out ears. So, you best bet is to use other criteria like power output, number of channels, reliability, resale value, customer support, orice, looks, etc. Les |
#6
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Amps, more argument!
Sorry to re-hash a tired argument but I've got to get this out. I've been to
3 shops in the last 2 days, and I've been hearing a lot of the same lingo from these sales people. They say that amp 1 is "warmer" than amp 2, or that amp 2 has better detail than amp 1, but sounds less "dynamic". I'm putting a Dynaudio System 240 GT in my car, I've already got an Eclipse CD8443 deck, all I need is an amp. Can someone present me with any reason why one should be better than another? Any help would be great. I've been giving alot of thought to this lately, as I just installed a Hifonics amp and I can hear a difference from the Rockford I was temporarily using. Now, I don't think this is because the Hifonics is "cleaner" or "more dymanic" amp or anything, my guess is it sounds different simply because the Hifonics has way more controls. It offers high pass, bandpass, full pass filters... all adjustable, and personally I think they have alot more to do with the sound difference from the less controllable Rockford I was using. Perhaps the salesmen's ears are hearing these supposed differences simply because certain amps offer better controls/features than others,and that can contribute to sound differences. Plus, if the salesmen is comparing a 50x2 amp to a 100x2 amp, and says the 100x2 amp sounds more "blah blah" than the smaller amp, its possible he's just noticing the power difference. Nick |
#7
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Amps, more argument!
Steve,
I have to say I've done a complete turnaround on this topic. After listening to several gurus on this newsgroup, I have to accept the fact that a watt is a watt and you cannot possibly perceive an SQ difference between one amp and another unless you push them into clipping. And if their word isn't enough, then consider a quote from the Feb/Mar issue of Mobile Entertainment from mega trophy (221 to be exact) winner Scott Buwalda. He says one of the myths of sound-off competitions is "A watt is a watt. I doubt most people can hear the difference between amplifiers unless you push them into clipping anyway." And as our newsgroup gurus say, the "experts" out there keep perpetuating this myth...as your visit to 3 different shops clearly illustrates. Another FUNNY example of this is Leslie Shapiro's review of Zapco's Reference 1100M mono amplifier in the SAME issue as the quote from Scott Buwalda: "Zapco's Reference 1100M mono amp will drive your subwoofers to the limit of their power-handling capability and deliver the clearest of signals. Oh, and did I mention the top-notch sound quality?" Anyway, back to your problem. You have $600 to spend on a good amp and don't want to pay full retail. I suggest you visit http://www.sounddomain.com and look at the Phoenix Gold Titanium series amplifiers. I absolutely love them. They're very flexible, have built-in fans, and have GOBS of power. I have Dynaudio speakers myself and whether or not you're a believer of "SQ amps", these amps ROCK...either way you look it. Plus, sounddomain is an authorized Internet dealer and sell MUCH less than retail shops. I confirmed their authorized status with Phoenix Gold myself (not heresay). Good luck with whatever you decide. Tony -- What's more likely? That an all-powerful mysterious god created the universe and then decided not to give any proof of his existence? Or, that he simply doesn't exist at all? And that we created him so that we wouldn't have to feel so small and alone. -Eleanor Arroway, Contact "TheBIessedDead" wrote in message ... Sorry to re-hash a tired argument but I've got to get this out. I've been to 3 shops in the last 2 days, and I've been hearing a lot of the same lingo from these sales people. They say that amp 1 is "warmer" than amp 2, or that amp 2 has better detail than amp 1, but sounds less "dynamic". I'm putting a Dynaudio System 240 GT in my car, I've already got an Eclipse CD8443 deck, all I need is an amp. Can someone present me with any reason why one should be better than another? Any help would be great. I've been giving alot of thought to this lately, as I just installed a Hifonics amp and I can hear a difference from the Rockford I was temporarily using. Now, I don't think this is because the Hifonics is "cleaner" or "more dymanic" amp or anything, my guess is it sounds different simply because the Hifonics has way more controls. It offers high pass, bandpass, full pass filters... all adjustable, and personally I think they have alot more to do with the sound difference from the less controllable Rockford I was using. Perhaps the salesmen's ears are hearing these supposed differences simply because certain amps offer better controls/features than others,and that can contribute to sound differences. Plus, if the salesmen is comparing a 50x2 amp to a 100x2 amp, and says the 100x2 amp sounds more "blah blah" than the smaller amp, its possible he's just noticing the power difference. Nick |
#8
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Amps, more argument!
Another FUNNY example of this is Leslie Shapiro's review of Zapco's
Reference 1100M mono amplifier in the SAME issue as the quote from Scott Buwalda I ended up with Dynaduio's System 240 MKII speakers system and a Zapco refernece series amp making 125x2. Put in the deposit yesterday. =) Good luck with whatever you decide. I appreciate it. |
#9
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Amps, more argument!
I know from personal experience that amps sound different than the next without clipping. I went from an Ultimate Digitalis 1300S to a Phoenix Gold Tantrum 1200.1. The difference was night and day. Same sub, same box, same car, same features, same impedance load (4ohms). I popped my trunk and listened to the sound of my sub when powered by the Digitalis, and drums sounded like anything BUT drums. Recordings with drum hits close together, or with basslines that fluctuated sounded like TRASH. Everything ran together. While playing a test tone to adjust my gain properly I could barely tell when it started distorting, it was that horrible. On the other hand, when I got my Tantrum amp drums sounded perfect, even when played close together. And fluctuating basslines were played perfectly. It just sounded like the Tantrum had better control over my sub than my Digitalis. There was a H U G E difference in SQ between the two, even at low volume. -- Will_Skillz ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Posted via RealCarAudio.com - The checkmate of the caraudio community. http://www.RealCarAudio.com Will_Skillz's Profile: http://www.realcaraudio.com/forums/m...fo&userid=1186 View this thread: http://www.realcaraudio.com/forums/s...threadid=45516 |
#10
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Amps, more argument!
I know from personal experience that amps sound different than the next
without clipping. Did you level match them? Did you do a blind listening test? Probably not. You are forgetting the effects of pyschoacoustics. Brand recognition goes a long way in that. BTW, you would be surprised at just how much clipping people will allow themselves to listen too before they ever realize it is occuring. It just sounded like the Tantrum had better control over my sub than my Digitalis. And how do you suppose that happens? How can an amp have "better control" over another. Look at independent tests performed by places like carsound.com; look at the graphs. Any differences that are measured, and there are differences, would be inaudible to the human ear. Until someone from the "I heard it" or "My experience" camp can actually offer some proof other than that then thier "claims" are just that. Les |
#11
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Amps, more argument!
I don't think you understand me correctly. I popped the trunk and listened to the sub while being powered by the Digitalis at high volume and so low that any lower and my sub wouldn't even have enough power to move at all. And both ways it sounded like absolute trash. But when I connected the Tantrum amp it's sounded better at high volume than the Digitalis did at low volume. There WAS a DEFINITE difference in SQ. At any volume level with the Digitalis drum hits sounded more like a sound effect than a drum, but the Tantrum connected sounded like a real drum hit. I've never heard of clipping at about 25 watts of power out of 500wrms. No bass boost on the headunit or either amp, no SLA, no nothing, everything the same. I just lack the know how to explain myself with big technical words like some of you know how, but I KNOW there was a definite sound difference. And I don't know what you mean by brand recognition, or whatever you said, but I had no prior experience with either brand until I bought those amps, and have no reason to put one on a pedestal above the other besides the sheer fact that one sounded WAY better than the other. Same sub, same car, same features, same box, same HU, same impedance load, same everything, high or low volume. They sounded Totally different. PERIOD. -- Will_Skillz ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Posted via RealCarAudio.com - The checkmate of the caraudio community. http://www.RealCarAudio.com Will_Skillz's Profile: http://www.realcaraudio.com/forums/m...fo&userid=1186 View this thread: http://www.realcaraudio.com/forums/s...threadid=45516 |
#12
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Amps, more argument!
I don't think you understand me correctly.
No, I understand you. You did not seem to read any of my post though. I popped the trunk and listened to the sub while being powered by the Digitalis at high volume and so low that any lower and my sub wouldn't even have enough power to move at all. So? Did you do a blind listening test? Level matching? Any sort of valid comparison of amplifiers? But when I connected the Tantrum amp it's sounded better at high volume than the Digitalis did at low volume. There WAS a DEFINITE difference in SQ. Most people think that ANY amp would sound better at a high volume than a low one. So, yes, there was a difference, one in volume. At any volume level with the Digitalis drum hits sounded more like a sound effect than a drum, but the Tantrum connected sounded like a real drum hit. Do you know what a blind listening test is? You must have extremely good memory of sounds, as it must take a few minutes to change an amp for another listen. Crossovers and gains would be different, thus you percieve a difference. I just lack the know how to explain myself with big technical words like some of you know how, but I KNOW there was a definite sound difference. You know? Did you measure it? You lack the technical words and the technical understanding. Not a big deal, but listen to the people that do know the technical stuff about it. Pyschoacoustics and related factors usually play a bigger role in things than we want to admit, that is why we have technical standards and tests to determine what is real and what is not. What we percieve and what is happening are not always the same thing. And I don't know what you mean by brand recognition, or whatever you said, It would be easy to know what I said if you would quote. It is easy and quite helpful when attempting to carry on a converstation. besides the sheer fact that one sounded WAY better than the other. Same sub, same car, same features, same box, same HU, same impedance load, same everything, high or low volume. They sounded Totally different. PERIOD. You results of these amps are meaningless. There were no controls, no standards, no level matching, no crossover verifications. You hooked up one, then hooked up the other, with some time inbetween. Tell me this, when you measure the amps parameters and any differences are below the threshold of hearing then how is there a difference? If you can answer that then I might give you a listen. Les |
#13
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Amps, more argument!
Will,
Something I forgot in my last post. I do not doubt that you heard a difference, but I question the interpretations you made, and the reasons you have for them "differences" being there. Les |
#14
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Amps, more argument!
I popped the trunk and listened to the sub while being powered by the
Digitalis at high volume and so low that any lower and my sub wouldn't even have enough power to move at all. And both ways it sounded like absolute trash. Sounds to me like you're saying your new amp had more power. That's what generally causes the effect you describe. I've never heard of clipping at about 25 watts of power out of 500wrms. No bass boost on the headunit or either amp, no SLA, no nothing, everything the same. Same power output? Same preconceived notions? I just lack the know how to explain myself with big technical words like some of you know how, but I KNOW there was a definite sound difference. What do you suppose that difference was attributable to? My guess is power. And I don't know what you mean by brand recognition, or whatever you said, but I had no prior experience with either brand until I bought those amps, and have no reason to put one on a pedestal above the other besides the sheer fact that one sounded WAY better than the other. Same sub, same car, same features, same box, same HU, same impedance load, same everything, high or low volume. They sounded Totally different. PERIOD. Well, there you have it. There must be differences then. I guess we just can't measure them. I think the differences are actually in the magic green goo that floats around in the speaker, but that's just me. |
#15
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Amps, more argument!
Soundfreak03 wrote: *I don't think you understand me correctly. No, I understand you. You did not seem to read any of my post though. So? Did you do a blind listening test? Level matching? Any sort of valid comparison of amplifiers? Most people think that ANY amp would sound better at a high volume than a low one. So, yes, there was a difference, one in volume. Do you know what a blind listening test is? You must have extremely good memory of sounds, as it must take a few minutes to change an amp for another listen. Crossovers and gains would be different, thus you percieve a difference. You know? Did you measure it? You lack the technical words and the technical understanding. Not a big deal, but listen to the people that do know the technical stuff about it. Pyschoacoustics and related factors usually play a bigger role in things than we want to admit, that is why we have technical standards and tests to determine what is real and what is not. What we percieve and what is happening are not always the same thing. It would be easy to know what I said if you would quote. It is easy and quite helpful when attempting to carry on a converstation. You results of these amps are meaningless. There were no controls, no standards, no level matching, no crossover verifications. You hooked up one, then hooked up the other, with some time inbetween. Tell me this, when you measure the amps parameters and any differences are below the threshold of hearing then how is there a difference? If you can answer that then I might give you a listen. Les * I also know little amount the measuement standards recognized by testing authorities. So I have questions. I think what Will was descibing was that one amp seemed to be blurring the notes together or not providing a noticable separation between peaks in the notes playing. Is it possible for an amp to not separate individual notes as well as another? Could one amp not accuately reproduce the ratio between quite notes to loud notes prrovided by the signal? Could one amp produce certain frequencies a millisecond or two before or after it's intended arrival thus attributing to the lack of clarity between drum beats? I hope I described my questions well enough for them to make sense to you. I too have noticed differences in amps and always wondered what was to blame. When their specs seemed to be identicle. The only difference being brand . I remember I selected my first amp this way, and ended up picking the Jensen, beacause it "sounded better". I'm sure I wasn't just picking a brand name then -- JIF ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Posted via RealCarAudio.com - The checkmate of the caraudio community. http://www.RealCarAudio.com JIF's Profile: http://www.realcaraudio.com/forums/m...fo&userid=1123 View this thread: http://www.realcaraudio.com/forums/s...threadid=45516 |
#16
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Amps, more argument!
I had three identical sony kicker amps (all of which were truly
crap),and i noticed that the first amp sounded loud ,the second wasnt as loud,and the third was was as loud but much cleaner sounding. All three were four channel amps in which the circuit protechtion didnt work in and the last amp took out three of my four 6x9s. My solo baric still works (with a wedge inbetween the rca input connecters ) gee go figure? Hell the last kicker amp was only turned up half way . They said to send it in for warrenty work..but im done with kicker and sony . I wasnt pleased with livin loud for a couple weeks then pulling my hair out cause sony is not putting out amps that dont meltdown at high lasting volume. I noticed that the wattage rating on these amps were all differnent even tho they were all kx 600.4 models. Any ideas on a new 4channel amp? Im thinking about alpine amp with the temp gauge and voltometer thingy. Maybe a rockford fosgate? Ill be picking 250 peak watt alpine 3-way speakers as well. Never heard of tantrum...or dyna? There goes my monitor screen upgrade thanks for the worthless junk sony! Regardless any help on which amp i should choose for peak sound would be great! thanks |
#17
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Amps, more argument!
Salesman and even installers often describe amps and they way
they sound with subjective terms... Nothin wrong with that! BUT, its pretty hard to take what they think is warm and compare it with what a different guy thinks is warm.... Amps DO definatly sound different!!!! Dont be confused by the all amps sound the same arguement! Its kinda hard to really get a good grasp on it for alot of folks. 2 amps playing an equal wattage without any stress and no where near the amps MAX output should sound pretty much the same (1 watt = 1 watt) But, when you really push an amp or play it outside its happy range one amp can sound drasticly different than another amp!!! These differences WILL OCCUR under normal use! The one amp sounds the same as another amp is a condition that will usually only occur under controlled test circumstances!! NOT FOR EVERYDAY USE! Everyday use, amps can sound VERY VERY different!!! As far as what amp to get, my professional opinion would be to buy a reliable amplifier with as much power as you can afford. Many brands of popular amps come out of the same factories in china as many other popular brands which makes alot of the common amps the same or very similar as many others, but the manufacturers dont want to tell you which ones are which.. ;-) Another confusing factor is that the amp brands rate the power all different ways and some even LIE about the power output of the amps, so its pretty hard to make a good decision by the printed specs... If you have an installer you trust it isnt a bad idea to take his word for what amps he likes... Or what amps he is using... Installers do get to see alot of amps while installing them and also if they ever come back with problems, it shoud help you choose a reliable one. Good luck Eddie Runner teamrocs #001 http://www.teamrocs.com/forums/ Steve Grauman wrote: Sorry to re-hash a tired argument but I've got to get this out. I've been to 3 shops in the last 2 days, and I've been hearing a lot of the same lingo from these sales people. They say that amp 1 is "warmer" than amp 2, or that amp 2 has better detail than amp 1, but sounds less "dynamic". I'm putting a Dynaudio System 240 GT in my car, I've already got an Eclipse CD8443 deck, all I need is an amp. Can someone present me with any reason why one should be better than another? Any help would be great. |
#18
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Amps, more argument!
Amps DO definatly sound different!!!!
Sure, when you take them outside of thier happy zone. Dont be confused by the all amps sound the same arguement! Its kinda hard to really get a good grasp on it for alot of folks. 2 amps playing an equal wattage without any stress and no where near the amps MAX output should sound pretty much the same (1 watt = 1 watt) Right, which is the point of the all amps sound the same argument. But, when you really push an amp or play it outside its happy range one amp can sound drasticly different than another amp!!! These differences WILL OCCUR under normal use! They can occur under normal everyday use. I personally attempt to buy amps with enough headroom to play as loud as I would like without clipping, alas it does not always happen. The one amp sounds the same as another amp is a condition that will usually only occur under controlled test circumstances!! NOT FOR EVERYDAY USE! Which is good to know what they performed like in test situations. It helps establish a baseline, and a reference to what is actually there and what we percieve to be there. Everyday use, amps can sound VERY VERY different!!! Only if they are driven to distortion. You make the other stuff equal and they do sound the same. As far as what amp to get, my professional opinion would be to buy a reliable amplifier with as much power as you can afford Exactly. But those types of things will often get overlooked when people have to worry about SQ of an amp. My point on the issue the entire time I have been here is that there are more important things to worry about than SQ. People get way to hung up on that. If you have an installer you trust it isnt a bad idea to take his word for what amps he likes... Or what amps he is using... Installers do get to see alot of amps while installing them and also if they ever come back with problems, it shoud help you choose a reliable one. Right again. Only problem is you have to trust the installer Which nowadays is not as easy to do. Reliablity is big on my list, as is power, and price. Les |
#19
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Amps, more argument!
I also know little amount the measuement standards recognized by
testing authorities. So I have questions. I think what Will was descibing was that one amp seemed to be blurring the notes together or not providing a noticable separation between peaks in the notes playing. Is it possible for an amp to not separate individual notes as well as another? Yes, that's possible. With a poor frequency response, a device not only attenuates certain frequencies with respect to one another, but can also alter the relative phase. This could contribute to the effect that you're referring to above. Also, poor dynamic range can contribute as well. In addition, the introduction of distortion can present some degree of masking which may be perceived as notes "blending" together. Could one amp not accuately reproduce the ratio between quite notes to loud notes prrovided by the signal? Yes. Any device in the signal chain can have poor dynamic range. It's usually less significant in amplifiers than in some other types of devices. Could one amp produce certain frequencies a millisecond or two before or after it's intended arrival thus attributing to the lack of clarity between drum beats? Yes. Poor phase response as I noted above can be responsible for this. Also, damping factor can contribute to this as well. The problem with the above analysis, however, is that even the cheapest amps don't demonstrate any of these attributes above! The freq/phase response of every solid state car amplifier that I know of is good enough to be indetectable by our brains. The same goes for the dynamic range, distortion characteristics, and damping factor! They're all well below threshold. Especially when you compare these things to other devices, like speakers. Speakers can have an audible level of distortion, even behaving linearly. Speakers can have a topsy turvey frequency response. Speakers, especially in car environments, have nasty phase responses. Speakers can lack "control" with certain frequencies. And dynamic range is limited severely by the high road noise levels typical of automobile environments. The bottom line is this: your car and your speakers completely swamp any "poor" distortion/phase/freq.resp. effects that your amplifiers exhibit. Placing the blame on the amplifier just makes no sense. It's like losing a road race by ten minutes but blaming the judge for miscalculating your time by three seconds. There is one notable exception, however. That's if your amplifier isn't powerful enough to deliver the power you're requiring it to deliver. When that's the case, you're probably driving your amplifier into clipping (very common - 95% of the people in here do it and probably don't realize it). When driven into clipping, amplifiers can behave noticably different, as their distortion byproduct skyrockets and the spectral components can actually differ from amp to amp when this occurs. |
#20
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Amps, more argument!
Huh? Kicker and Sony are different companies.
Kicker tests each of their amps as they're built so you know exactly how much power they put out. They were all rated the same, but the actual power output (what they wrote on the sheet) will be different for every unit made. I'm not sure how you managed to kill 3 KX600.4s but if you can do that I doubt you're going to find an amp that wil take the kind of obviuos abuse you put on your gear for very long. What Sony amp(s) were you using? Paul Vina "Chuck" wrote in message ... I had three identical sony kicker amps (all of which were truly crap),and i noticed that the first amp sounded loud ,the second wasnt as loud,and the third was was as loud but much cleaner sounding. All three were four channel amps in which the circuit protechtion didnt work in and the last amp took out three of my four 6x9s. My solo baric still works (with a wedge inbetween the rca input connecters ) gee go figure? Hell the last kicker amp was only turned up half way . They said to send it in for warrenty work..but im done with kicker and sony . I wasnt pleased with livin loud for a couple weeks then pulling my hair out cause sony is not putting out amps that dont meltdown at high lasting volume. I noticed that the wattage rating on these amps were all differnent even tho they were all kx 600.4 models. Any ideas on a new 4channel amp? Im thinking about alpine amp with the temp gauge and voltometer thingy. Maybe a rockford fosgate? Ill be picking 250 peak watt alpine 3-way speakers as well. Never heard of tantrum...or dyna? There goes my monitor screen upgrade thanks for the worthless junk sony! Regardless any help on which amp i should choose for peak sound would be great! thanks |
#21
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Amps, more argument!
God, look what I started. Sorry.
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#22
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Amps, more argument!
N A W M A N How can I be clipping the amp at low volume? Low as in, any less an the speaker would not move at all. And it still sounded like trash Notes still ran together So your saying that if everybody in the world had 12" MTX 8000 subs an nobodys amp was clipping, everybodys system would be exactly the sam sound quality wise I've had about 5 or 6 different amps, and that was the only amp tha ran notes together. Now how could I notice that if all of them sounde the same? Even at low volume. I have "main" songs that I listen to. And know them by heart. The beat the words, everything. As soon as I hooked my Digitalis up, I instantl said to myself, that sounds horrible. I had just sold my MTX 1501 about 2 or 3 days before I hooked the Digitalis up. And it sounde totally different than it sounded with the MTX. And as soon as I too the Digitalis off and put the Tantrum on, I heard another BI difference in SQ, in a good way. All 3 of those are 1500 watt amps, well, the Tantrum is 1429. No hug difference in power. The way it sounds normally is gross, if it eve clips, basslines would sound like a sharp fart. Lows with the Digitali could barely be felt. On the other hand my MTX and Tantrum move m seats and dangle my my rearview ornament I wish you and I lived close. I'd litteraly bet you $1000 that if I le you hook the amps up, adjust the gains, and listen to the sub yourself the sub would sound Totally different when you switch amps No matter if nobody agrees with me, I know, without clipping amplifiers can sound different then the next. I've experienced it fo myself. This topic is crazy :rolleyes - Will_Skill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Posted via RealCarAudio.com - The checkmate of the caraudio community http://www.RealCarAudio.co Will_Skillz's Profile: http://www.realcaraudio.com/forums/m...nfo&userid=118 View this thread: http://www.realcaraudio.com/forums/s...?threadid=4551 |
#23
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Amps, more argument!
I wish you and I lived close. I'd litteraly bet you $1000 that if I let
you hook the amps up, adjust the gains, and listen to the sub yourself, the sub would sound Totally different when you switch amps. Oh, a betting man. Richard Clark has offered a $10,000 challenge for you to tell the difference between any two amps of your choosing. You don't have to put up $10k. The "wager" is that you can't tell the difference and if you can you win $10k. I'll find the contact info for you if you're interested. |
#24
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Amps, more argument!
Mark Zarella wrote: "Oh, a betting man. Richard Clark has offered a $10,000
challenge for you to tell the difference between any two amps of your choosing. You don't have to put up $10k. The "wager" is that you can't tell the difference and if you can you win $10k. I'll find the contact info for you if you're interested." Aha!!! Well, Will...it appears as if he's called you. Now it's your turn. Like you, I am skeptical about this whole amp SQ business. However, I have learned one thing. I know tons more about car audio than all of my friends put together. In my little "group" I am an obsessed car stereo nerd freak guru. And the regulars on this newsgroup (yes, Mark included) are to me as I am to my friends. This concept is just one of those things I'm slowly digesting. You know? It's almost as if I can taste how good the truth is, but my mouth still hasn't gotten used to it yet. Give it time. The industry seems to have brainwashed us all. My .02. Tony -- What's more likely? That an all-powerful mysterious god created the universe and then decided not to give any proof of his existence? Or, that he simply doesn't exist at all? And that we created him so that we wouldn't have to feel so small and alone. -Eleanor Arroway, Contact "Mark Zarella" wrote in message ... I wish you and I lived close. I'd litteraly bet you $1000 that if I let you hook the amps up, adjust the gains, and listen to the sub yourself, the sub would sound Totally different when you switch amps. Oh, a betting man. Richard Clark has offered a $10,000 challenge for you to tell the difference between any two amps of your choosing. You don't have to put up $10k. The "wager" is that you can't tell the difference and if you can you win $10k. I'll find the contact info for you if you're interested. |
#25
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Amps, more argument!
Surffing Ebay I have found a dead PG SA3.0X Sapphire amp for $13. Anyhow I
just finished repairing it the other day and all I can say is damn. The high and low end that comes out of this amp is unreal. This is by far one of the cleanest amps that I have heard in a longtime. I have never owned a PG before, but I gotta say that this thing sounds sweet. My magic ears heard a difference yet again. In article , Will_Skillz wrote: I don't think you understand me correctly. I popped the trunk and listened to the sub while being powered by the Digitalis at high volume and so low that any lower and my sub wouldn't even have enough power to move at all. And both ways it sounded like absolute trash. But when I connected the Tantrum amp it's sounded better at high volume than the Digitalis did at low volume. There WAS a DEFINITE difference in SQ. At any volume level with the Digitalis drum hits sounded more like a sound effect than a drum, but the Tantrum connected sounded like a real drum hit. I've never heard of clipping at about 25 watts of power out of 500wrms. No bass boost on the headunit or either amp, no SLA, no nothing, everything the same. I just lack the know how to explain myself with big technical words like some of you know how, but I KNOW there was a definite sound difference. And I don't know what you mean by brand recognition, or whatever you said, but I had no prior experience with either brand until I bought those amps, and have no reason to put one on a pedestal above the other besides the sheer fact that one sounded WAY better than the other. Same sub, same car, same features, same box, same HU, same impedance load, same everything, high or low volume. They sounded Totally different. PERIOD. |
#26
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Amps, more argument!
Surffing Ebay I have found a dead PG SA3.0X Sapphire amp for $13. Anyhow
I just finished repairing it the other day and all I can say is damn. The high and low end that comes out of this amp is unreal. This is by far one of the cleanest amps that I have heard in a longtime. I have never owned a PG before, but I gotta say that this thing sounds sweet. My magic ears heard a difference yet again. While you've got it handy, put it on a scope and tell me what the difference is. If there's no difference in the electrical signal, then there's no difference in the way the speaker moves air. So what other explanation is there aside from magic ears? Good ol' captain H., always the stubborn subjectivist... |
#27
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Amps, more argument!
So your saying that if everybody in the world had 12" MTX 8000 subs and
nobodys amp was clipping, everybodys system would be exactly the same sound quality wise? No. Car type, box type, crossover points, installation and all of the other things that factor into SQ would play a role. I've had about 5 or 6 different amps, and that was the only amp that ran notes together. Now how could I notice that if all of them sounded the same? Even at low volume. Your really stuck on this low volume thing. It does not matter the volume as long as it is not clipping. Though we often will percieve louder as better. The way it sounds normally is gross, if it ever clips, basslines would sound like a sharp fart. Lows with the Digitalis could barely be felt. On the other hand my MTX and Tantrum move my seats and dangle my my rearview ornament. Everything you are saying was likely the result of a volume difference. SQ is not was moves your seats and dangles ornaments. I wish you and I lived close. I'd litteraly bet you $1000 that if I let you hook the amps up, adjust the gains, and listen to the sub yourself, the sub would sound Totally different when you switch amps. I wish you did too because I wouldn't mind having an extra $1000. No matter if nobody agrees with me, I know, without clipping, amplifiers can sound different then the next. I've experienced it for myself. This topic is crazy Any data I have seen would suggest different. The nature of physics suggests different. You tell me how amps whose differences, in all ways, are less than what we can even hear sound different? The factors that would be associated with notes running together, and tightness are just not factors in modern amplifier design. And here is the point of this whole thing. Forget about the SQ of an amplifier. There are more important things to consider for an amp, and there are factors that contribute way more to the SQ of your system. Noobs just seem to get hung up on this and forget about the rest of it, and yes Will you are included in that. Les |
#28
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Amps, more argument!
I think our brains are constantly telling us that more expensive always = a
better product. In many cases this proves true, but with amps, I'm not so sure it is. The most experienced members of the Car Audio community largly agree there's no good reason for two evenly matched amps to sound different than one another, at least not to a degree detectable by the human ear. I'm getting my amp and speakers installed on Saturday, I bought a reference series Zapco amp and a Dynaudio System 240 MKII. I originally wanted a competition series Zapco or a Brax or an Arc Audio, but you know what I found out? When everything else remained consistant, there was no detectable sound difference between the three. And the only reason I bought the Zapco amp over the less expensive (and actually more competant, according to stats on paper) Premium series Eclipse amp is because of the awesome package deal this guy made me. |
#29
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Amps, more argument!
Mark, I **** you not. The high end alone coming out of this thing sounds like I have replaced the tweeters. My test bench voltage never changes nor does the room that it's in. The major difference that I have noticed between this amp and others is that this amp has a massive x-over network that covers 25% of the amp with resistors. I can't explain it, but the difference is too great to ignore or say that there isn't one. I don't have a working scope at this time to compare the amp with, my tube driven beast has quit and I'm still saving up for a duel trace. I did change the power LED from green to an ultra bright blue, could that be why it sounds different? lol In article , "Mark Zarella" wrote: Surffing Ebay I have found a dead PG SA3.0X Sapphire amp for $13. Anyhow I just finished repairing it the other day and all I can say is damn. The high and low end that comes out of this amp is unreal. This is by far one of the cleanest amps that I have heard in a longtime. I have never owned a PG before, but I gotta say that this thing sounds sweet. My magic ears heard a difference yet again. While you've got it handy, put it on a scope and tell me what the difference is. If there's no difference in the electrical signal, then there's no difference in the way the speaker moves air. So what other explanation is there aside from magic ears? Good ol' captain H., always the stubborn subjectivist... |
#30
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Amps, more argument!
Mark, I **** you not. The high end alone coming out of this thing sounds
like I have replaced the tweeters. So do you think that's because your last amp attenuated the highs or is it because your new amp boosts the highs? It can be only one or the other. I'm curious as to which you believe it is. My test bench voltage never changes nor does the room that it's in. The major difference that I have noticed between this amp and others is that this amp has a massive x-over network that covers 25% of the amp with resistors. That's all crossover? I doubt it. Even a 24dB/oct crossover only requires 4 resistors per channel. I can't explain it, but the difference is too great to ignore or say that there isn't one. I don't have a working scope at this time to compare the amp with, my tube driven beast has quit and I'm still saving up for a duel trace. I did change the power LED from green to an ultra bright blue, could that be why it sounds different? lol I'm not saying you didn't hear a difference. What I'm saying is that you're attributing it to the wrong thing. I think the burden is on you to tell us what the difference is. Of course you must agree that the difference should be present in the electrical trace of the output, right? |
#31
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Amps, more argument!
a busted amp? Sounds like thermal runaway.
"Will_Skillz" wrote in message ... I don't think you understand me correctly. I popped the trunk and listened to the sub while being powered by the Digitalis at high volume and so low that any lower and my sub wouldn't even have enough power to move at all. And both ways it sounded like absolute trash. But when I connected the Tantrum amp it's sounded better at high volume than the Digitalis did at low volume. There WAS a DEFINITE difference in SQ. At any volume level with the Digitalis drum hits sounded more like a sound effect than a drum, but the Tantrum connected sounded like a real drum hit. I've never heard of clipping at about 25 watts of power out of 500wrms. No bass boost on the headunit or either amp, no SLA, no nothing, everything the same. I just lack the know how to explain myself with big technical words like some of you know how, but I KNOW there was a definite sound difference. And I don't know what you mean by brand recognition, or whatever you said, but I had no prior experience with either brand until I bought those amps, and have no reason to put one on a pedestal above the other besides the sheer fact that one sounded WAY better than the other. Same sub, same car, same features, same box, same HU, same impedance load, same everything, high or low volume. They sounded Totally different. PERIOD. -- Will_Skillz ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Posted via RealCarAudio.com - The checkmate of the caraudio community. http://www.RealCarAudio.com Will_Skillz's Profile: http://www.realcaraudio.com/forums/m...fo&userid=1186 View this thread: http://www.realcaraudio.com/forums/s...threadid=45516 |
#32
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Amps, more argument!
Ah, I give up One thing though, tell that little man that's doing that bet thing t test an Ultimate Digitalis 1300S and a Phoenix Gold Tantrum 1200.1 fo his self before he looses his money. In car Could the difference I'm talking about be that the Digitalis is full regulated? Don't know. Us "noobies" are just curious as to why thes things happen You guys are making me feel like I belong on Ripley's Believe It o Not, lol. The only guy in the world that can tell the difference in S between amps. : - Will_Skill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Posted via RealCarAudio.com - The checkmate of the caraudio community http://www.RealCarAudio.co Will_Skillz's Profile: http://www.realcaraudio.com/forums/m...nfo&userid=118 View this thread: http://www.realcaraudio.com/forums/s...?threadid=4551 |
#33
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Amps, more argument!
well i didn't kill them they committed suicide..the circuit protections
didn't work...(ah..the little red light didn't come on.. lol) Abuse?..Oh you mean turning my amp up half way? I don't think so. You see I think the amps didn't have enuff power and that made them work too hard. 100x4 is what everyone argued me to get ..i said more watt per channel ..and should have listened to myself i guess . You see i have a solo baric and i turned it up all the way for eight years ..eh guess what it still works fine. I bet i do find a amp thats worthy. Thanks anyway |
#34
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Amps, more argument!
In article , "Mark Zarella" wrote:
Mark, I **** you not. The high end alone coming out of this thing sounds like I have replaced the tweeters. So do you think that's because your last amp attenuated the highs or is it because your new amp boosts the highs? It can be only one or the other. I'm curious as to which you believe it is. I would have to say that is boost the high, just for the simple reason that this amp is more high end'ish then anyof the 6 amps that I have sitting here. My test bench voltage never changes nor does the room that it's in. The major difference that I have noticed between this amp and others is that this amp has a massive x-over network that covers 25% of the amp with resistors. That's all crossover? I doubt it. Even a 24dB/oct crossover only requires 4 resistors per channel. This amp uses about 50-60 resistors between two channels. I can't explain it, but the difference is too great to ignore or say that there isn't one. I don't have a working scope at this time to compare the amp with, my tube driven beast has quit and I'm still saving up for a duel trace. I did change the power LED from green to an ultra bright blue, could that be why it sounds different? lol I'm not saying you didn't hear a difference. What I'm saying is that you're attributing it to the wrong thing. What is the right thing and don't say power out? I think the burden is on you to tell us what the difference is. Of course you must agree that the difference should be present in the electrical trace of the output, right? Right |
#35
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Amps, more argument!
Could the difference I'm talking about be that the Digitalis is fully
regulated? Don't know. Us "noobies" are just curious as to why these things happen. And your question has been answered before. Several times. You just refuse to listen, and insist that your right. The only way that the difference was there was if you had a faulty amp. But even so without test equipment we could not know, because your "test" is meaningless. You guys are making me feel like I belong on Ripley's Believe It or Not, lol. The only guy in the world that can tell the difference in SQ between amps. You can't. You are just too much of a noob to understand the scientific facts and principles associated. Either that are you too much of an idiot to understand them. Les |
#36
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Amps, more argument!
So do you think that's because your last amp attenuated the highs or is
it because your new amp boosts the highs? It can be only one or the other. I'm curious as to which you believe it is. I would have to say that is boost the high, just for the simple reason that this amp is more high end'ish then anyof the 6 amps that I have sitting here. So the new amp isn't providing a flat response? I'd have it checked out. That's all crossover? I doubt it. Even a 24dB/oct crossover only requires 4 resistors per channel. This amp uses about 50-60 resistors between two channels. How much of that is input stage? I'm not saying you didn't hear a difference. What I'm saying is that you're attributing it to the wrong thing. What is the right thing and don't say power out? There are too many variables to be able to say for certain. That's why in order to answer this question it's important to isolate variables so you can come to a logically sound conclusion. You didn't isolate the important variables, such as power, linearity, and listener bias. |
#37
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Amps, more argument!
Ah, I give up.
One thing though, tell that little man that's doing that bet thing to test an Ultimate Digitalis 1300S and a Phoenix Gold Tantrum 1200.1 for his self before he looses his money. In car. Could the difference I'm talking about be that the Digitalis is fully regulated? Don't know. Us "noobies" are just curious as to why these things happen. You guys are making me feel like I belong on Ripley's Believe It or Not, lol. The only guy in the world that can tell the difference in SQ between amps. We can all tell the difference. But it's for different reasons than you've provided. |
#38
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Amps, more argument!
Hold up Soundfreak, you need to calm down with all that belittling stuff. Just bcuz you may be a caraudio bookworm doesn't mean that people just starting are idiots. So I don't know alot about scientific stuff, big deal bit(h. Though I still don't agree with the others that are posting here, and they still don't agree with me, we all, well almost all, are still respecting each other. So keep that childish $hit to yourself. Better yet, don't respond to anything I post. There is no room for "I am greater than thou" attitudes. I don't mind debates, bcuz some are fruitful. But the deragatory BS your talking doesn't help a damn thing. -- Will_Skillz ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Posted via RealCarAudio.com - The checkmate of the caraudio community. http://www.RealCarAudio.com Will_Skillz's Profile: http://www.realcaraudio.com/forums/m...fo&userid=1186 View this thread: http://www.realcaraudio.com/forums/s...threadid=45516 |
#39
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Amps, more argument!
In article , "Mark Zarella" wrote:
So do you think that's because your last amp attenuated the highs or is it because your new amp boosts the highs? It can be only one or the other. I'm curious as to which you believe it is. I would have to say that is boost the high, just for the simple reason that this amp is more high end'ish then anyof the 6 amps that I have sitting here. So the new amp isn't providing a flat response? I'd have it checked out. The amp works fine. That's all crossover? I doubt it. Even a 24dB/oct crossover only requires 4 resistors per channel. This amp uses about 50-60 resistors between two channels. How much of that is input stage? I'm not saying you didn't hear a difference. What I'm saying is that you're attributing it to the wrong thing. What is the right thing and don't say power out? There are too many variables to be able to say for certain. That's why in order to answer this question it's important to isolate variables so you can come to a logically sound conclusion. You didn't isolate the important variables, such as power, linearity, and listener bias. Never the less, there is a difference. Dunno what but there is one. |
#40
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Amps, more argument!
Thats right, set the soundgeek str8. The little prick jerkskin of a bas-turd that he is. LOL In article , Will_Skillz wrote: Hold up Soundfreak, you need to calm down with all that belittling stuff. Just bcuz you may be a caraudio bookworm doesn't mean that people just starting are idiots. So I don't know alot about scientific stuff, big deal bit(h. Though I still don't agree with the others that are posting here, and they still don't agree with me, we all, well almost all, are still respecting each other. So keep that childish $hit to yourself. Better yet, don't respond to anything I post. There is no room for "I am greater than thou" attitudes. I don't mind debates, bcuz some are fruitful. But the deragatory BS your talking doesn't help a damn thing. |
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