[lewdslewrate]

Hi.....already had good advice from here on this project. Anyone see
likely pitfalls with this scenario:

x4 soloists (pro trainee's) in line almost with conductor....small
orchestra (32) spread longer than deep.....130 person choir (strong
voices - pro groups mixed with competent teens and teachers), 3 level
riser.

ORTF -MC930 - good spot flown just behind conductor (source angle 120
deg)
ORTF -C414XLS cardioid - almost above first row of choir (source angle
nearly 180 deg) I am negotiating some rigging to move them back a
bit.....hoping angles and cardiod pattern will minimise getting too
much of orchestra.

**Is ORTF best configure for choir - is there an issue delaying
different recording angle of choir pair to conductor pair....or am i
being too fussy?**

Literature says spot mics with ORTF is problematic...i want to spot
mic the basses that will be at the extreme right of the orchestra and
right on edge of proposed acceptance angle of mics...worth a try?

A D&B tech is running seperate lines/mics to give some FOH
reinforcement but also foldback to monitors flown above the choir. He
also sends a 100% wet reverb to multi speakers fixed down the hall.
The hall is a great sports hall!

I confess to having read more theory (not always understood) than
having actual experience....but as Manuel says..... "i learn Mr
fawlty.i learn"

cheers

[Scott Dorsey]

lewdslewrate wrote:
x4 soloists (pro trainee's) in line almost with conductor....small
orchestra (32) spread longer than deep.....130 person choir (strong
voices - pro groups mixed with competent teens and teachers), 3 level
riser.

ORTF -MC930 - good spot flown just behind conductor (source angle 120
deg)
ORTF -C414XLS cardioid - almost above first row of choir (source angle
nearly 180 deg) I am negotiating some rigging to move them back a
bit.....hoping angles and cardiod pattern will minimise getting too
much of orchestra.

How much signal pickup will they have in common?

**Is ORTF best configure for choir - is there an issue delaying
different recording angle of choir pair to conductor pair....or am i
being too fussy?**

Not knowing your room or choir or mikes, I can't say. But I will say
that mixing two stereo pairs in the same room is asking for trouble
in general. You can do it but you have to think about isolation.

I think you are much better off trying to think about recording the
room with a single mike pair, then adding spots on the choir.

You're not recording instruments and people, you're recording the room.

Literature says spot mics with ORTF is problematic...i want to spot
mic the basses that will be at the extreme right of the orchestra and
right on edge of proposed acceptance angle of mics...worth a try?

Why? They'll be fine. The acceptance angle of the mikes down at 100 Hz
is nearly 360 degrees.

A D&B tech is running seperate lines/mics to give some FOH
reinforcement but also foldback to monitors flown above the choir. He
also sends a 100% wet reverb to multi speakers fixed down the hall.
The hall is a great sports hall!

That's bad news. I'm sorry. That makes your job a thousand times harder.

I confess to having read more theory (not always understood) than
having actual experience....but as Manuel says..... "i learn Mr
fawlty.i learn"

Get a pair of mikes, go to rehearsals and move them around.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Frank Stearns]

(Scott Dorsey) writes:

lewdslewrate wrote:
x4 soloists (pro trainee's) in line almost with conductor....small
orchestra (32) spread longer than deep.....130 person choir (strong
voices - pro groups mixed with competent teens and teachers), 3 level
riser.

ORTF -MC930 - good spot flown just behind conductor (source angle 120
deg)
ORTF -C414XLS cardioid - almost above first row of choir (source angle
nearly 180 deg) I am negotiating some rigging to move them back a
bit.....hoping angles and cardiod pattern will minimise getting too
much of orchestra.

How much signal pickup will they have in common?

**Is ORTF best configure for choir - is there an issue delaying
different recording angle of choir pair to conductor pair....or am i
being too fussy?**

Not knowing your room or choir or mikes, I can't say. But I will say
that mixing two stereo pairs in the same room is asking for trouble
in general. You can do it but you have to think about isolation.

I think you are much better off trying to think about recording the
room with a single mike pair, then adding spots on the choir.

You're not recording instruments and people, you're recording the room.

Literature says spot mics with ORTF is problematic...i want to spot
mic the basses that will be at the extreme right of the orchestra and
right on edge of proposed acceptance angle of mics...worth a try?

Why? They'll be fine. The acceptance angle of the mikes down at 100 Hz
is nearly 360 degrees.


This type of recording is my bread and butter. Scott is spot on (no pun) regarding
each point.

Find a good location for a main pair; section/area spot mic choir, including the
basses. Depending on just how wide they really are, 3 to 6 spots might be
appropriate.

You probably want 1-2 spots for the soloists, a few feet back. What are they
performing? The type of music, even the period within a genre, will alter the
approach somewhat. (Hmmm. This time of year with choir, soloists, large chamber orch
-- are they perhaps doing one of the Bach Passions or something similar?)


BTW, you *are* going to a multitrack, correct? You're not trying to live-mix this
to 2 track?


Here are some augmentation ideas for you:

- If you use really good small diaphragm condensors, such as the MG300, KM84 (maybe
even the KM184 if you talk nice to it and convince it not to be shrill), you can put
them in typical spot locations along the front of the chorus, but then tip them up
30-45 degrees more than you might think so that the null is facing the orchestra,
while the voice sound is going over them.

You can get remarkable isolation doing this, even if they're right on top of the
back of the orchestra. It does assume a good room, and good SD mics that don't
destroy sound coming in at nearly 90 degrees off axis.

- Use your ORTF main pair, but on the same stick (or rigging), maybe a few feet
higher, also add omnis at 50 cm, or Scott's Jecklin disk system with omnis. This
double-main pair approach is a great way to be able to adjust for the room (if the
room is affected by how many bodies are in it), how much "reach" you want into the
ensemble v. how much room.

- You can finagle two stereo pairs (far/close, per your original note) if you delay
the closer pair to avoid comb filtering with the main pair. Now, with multiple
acoustic paths possible to both pairs, an exact alignment still might not work out.
Experiment with adding another 15-25 ms to push it out of overt comb filtering of
all the sources, but not out beyond the Haas threshold (approximately 40 ms).

And of course you want to delay your choir and solo mics.


A D&B tech is running seperate lines/mics to give some FOH
reinforcement but also foldback to monitors flown above the choir. He
also sends a 100% wet reverb to multi speakers fixed down the hall.
The hall is a great sports hall!

That's bad news. I'm sorry. That makes your job a thousand times harder.

Holy crap! That is bad news. Forget adding the omnis (probably), and the tip-up of
the choir spots might make things worse. Oy. Do this ala Ed Greene and put a contact
mic on each instrument, and a lav on each voice, and take your rack of 6
channel submixers into a nice 24 channel mixer...

I'm kidding, of course. (Though Ed did make that kind of approach sound
good for TV sound and avoid other room-related problems.)


Get a pair of mikes, go to rehearsals and move them around.

And try the same with some choral spots to see what happens.

Try to convince the tech & director to keep the hall wash and FB as low as
possible, maybe turn off all that stuff if they don't really need it.

Can you tell us a bit more about the room? Rough shape? Approximate dimensions?
Seating capacity? General acoustic quality (wet, dry, just plain weird). Will the
choir have a shell or other surface behind them? If not a shell, how far back is a
reflective surface? Are there masking drapes or other sound-eaters nearby?

What's the name of the venue, and where is it located? Maybe we've heard of it.

A challenge, to be sure. Good luck with it.

Frank
Mobile Audio

--

[lewdslewrate]

On Apr 10, 5:10*pm, Frank Stearns
wrote:
(Scott Dorsey) writes:
lewdslewrate wrote:
x4 soloists (pro trainee's) in line almost with conductor....small
orchestra (32) spread longer than deep.....130 person choir (strong
voices - pro groups mixed with competent teens and teachers), 3 level
riser.

ORTF -MC930 - good spot flown just behind conductor (source angle 120
deg)
ORTF -C414XLS cardioid - almost above first row of choir (source angle
nearly 180 deg) I am negotiating some rigging to move them back a
bit.....hoping angles and cardiod pattern will minimise getting too
much of orchestra.
How much signal pickup will they have in common?
**Is ORTF best configure for choir - is there an issue delaying
different recording angle of choir pair to conductor pair....or am i
being too fussy?**
Not knowing your room or choir or mikes, I can't say. *But I will say
that mixing two stereo pairs in the same room is asking for trouble
in general. *You can do it but you have to think about isolation.
I think you are much better off trying to think about recording the
room with a single mike pair, then adding spots on the choir.
You're not recording instruments and people, you're recording the room.
Literature says spot mics with ORTF is problematic...i want to spot
mic the basses that will be at the extreme right of the orchestra and
right on edge of proposed acceptance angle of mics...worth a try?
Why? *They'll be fine. *The acceptance angle of the mikes down at 100 Hz
is nearly 360 degrees.

This type of recording is my bread and butter. Scott is spot on (no pun) regarding
each point.

Find a good location for a main pair; section/area spot mic choir, including the
basses. Depending on just how wide they really are, 3 to 6 spots might be
appropriate.

You probably want 1-2 spots for the soloists, a few feet back. What are they
performing? The type of music, even the period within a genre, will alter the
approach somewhat. (Hmmm. This time of year with choir, soloists, large chamber orch
-- are they perhaps doing one of the Bach Passions or something similar?)

BTW, you *are* going to a multitrack, correct? You're not trying to live-mix this
to 2 track?

Here are some augmentation ideas for you:

- If you use really good small diaphragm condensors, such as the MG300, KM84 (maybe
even the KM184 if you talk nice to it and convince it not to be shrill), you can put
them in typical spot locations along the front of the chorus, but then tip them up
30-45 degrees more than you might think so that the null is facing the orchestra,
while the voice sound is going over them.

You can get remarkable isolation doing this, even if they're right on top of the
back of the orchestra. It does assume a good room, and good SD mics that don't
destroy sound coming in at nearly 90 degrees off axis.

- Use your ORTF main pair, but on the same stick (or rigging), maybe a few feet
higher, also add omnis at 50 cm, or Scott's Jecklin disk system with omnis. This
double-main pair approach is a great way to be able to adjust for the room (if the
room is affected by how many bodies are in it), how much "reach" you want into the
ensemble v. how much room.

- You can finagle two stereo pairs (far/close, per your original note) if you delay
the closer pair to avoid comb filtering with the main pair. Now, with multiple
acoustic paths possible to both pairs, an exact alignment still might not work out.
Experiment with adding another 15-25 ms to push it out of overt comb filtering of
all the sources, but not out beyond the Haas threshold (approximately 40 ms).

And of course you want to delay your choir and solo mics.

A D&B tech is running seperate lines/mics to give some FOH
reinforcement but also foldback to monitors flown above the choir. *He
also sends a 100% wet reverb to multi speakers fixed down the hall.
The hall is a great sports hall!
That's bad news. *I'm sorry. *That makes your job a thousand times harder.

Holy crap! That is bad news. Forget adding the omnis (probably), and the tip-up of
the choir spots might make things worse. Oy. Do this ala Ed Greene and put a contact
mic on each instrument, and a lav on each voice, and take your rack of 6
channel submixers into a nice 24 channel mixer...

I'm kidding, of course. (Though Ed did make that kind of approach sound
good for TV sound and avoid other room-related problems.)

Get a pair of mikes, go to rehearsals and move them around.

And try the same with some choral spots to see what happens.

Try to convince the tech & director to keep the hall wash and FB as low as
possible, maybe turn off all that stuff if they don't really need it.

Can you tell us a bit more about the room? Rough shape? Approximate dimensions?
Seating capacity? General acoustic quality (wet, dry, just plain weird). Will the
choir have a shell or other surface behind them? If not a shell, how far back is a
reflective surface? Are there masking drapes or other sound-eaters nearby?

What's the name of the venue, and where is it located? Maybe we've heard of it.

A challenge, to be sure. Good luck with it.

Frank
Mobile Audio

--
*.
Big sports hall at a school in Gloucestershire....only recently
opened...not completely finished. rectangle shoe box with a arched
roof.

Floor: Wooden sprung surface; (covered in thin carpet for performance)
Lower walls: Plaster finished blockwork;
Upper walls: Timber slatted panelling, ~25% open area, mineral fibre
quilt
behind;
Roof: Perforated liner tray, 30mm Rockwool above.

Approx 16m x 35m and high!

Audience capacity 600 No acoustic shell for choir etc D&B man
adds early reflections as hall is deemed poor for tonal reference for
singing. Choristers complain they cannot hear themselves or anyone
else...they had this problem in gloucester Cathedral but the
atmosphere of event and 'big church' sound had a psychological effect
and they got through great...in this sports hall they get little
reference back to their own ears and they all hate it as a venue.
There is a wicked slap back echo across the hall due to lower walls
(they may put some drapes up on one side as advised but i am not
holding my breath....its a real spaced out dubby hard as nails
thing..and fast and loud...and with a Rolf Harris type of 'wobble
board' sound for extra confusion Great fun if your feeling like 12
years old and you are on your own! A less than ethereal
reverberation mush pertains in upper reaches (aka 'swimming
pool').....and intelligibility for speech diminishes rapidly as one
moves away from another person.

Mozarts requiem.

Technical paraphinalia not appreciated so mics on stands in front of
choir may not be allowed but i could configure some for the basses.
Soloists x4 share 2 mics....i have only one more C414...if i cant loan
one more it will be......sorry to share this.......my akg perception
420's cardioid with a mini screen behind....

I chose MC930 ORTF to get a good stereo placement of orchestra
instruments and some of the soloists. (originally purchased for
Cathedral to cut out some of the 'room' as i had to place them quite a
way back from the choir...again an orchestra in between.....acceptable
result for school archive....learning curve for me) I could put a
cardioid spaced pair (flown C414XLS) in front of choir/
overhead.....its a more general wash of sound so accurate placement is
less critical (i think)......would this be easier to delay to the ORTF
pair.

I am multi tracking to an Yamaha AW2400 recorder (8 tracks 24 bit) I
invested in some quality mic cable.....(may have audition use of a
Focusrite ISA8 just to see how it influences the preamp stage (i will
use analogue outs on ISA8 & still use converters on Aw2400)....i will
be in a sports store to one side....headphones only.....peeping
through a crack for visuals.