Noah Roberts wrote:
You can easily design a computer to be 100% Linux
compatible by purchasing from companies who care about their customers.

And you can easily buy an OS that is 99.44% compatible with
all the hardware out there by purchasing from a company who
cares about its stockholders.


Bob
--

"Things should be described as simply as possible, but no
simpler."

A. Einstein

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Noah Roberts wrote in
:

Dyn0 Mu77 wrote:

Linux distros have a much faster release cycle. So you have to
worry less about drivers that are newer than the OS.


Drivers that are kludged and reverse engineered.

A large percentage of Linux drivers are developed by the manufacturers
themselves and most of those make it into the kernel. Others are
developed by Linux developers working for someone else or on their own
time with reference material provided by the manufacturer, sometimes
under NDA but other times not. The remainder are developed by very
bright individuals who reverse engineer the device and write specs
themselves. These later drivers are of course slower to get created and
more prone to error since the manufacturer refuses to release
information needed to develop the driver without reverse engineering.


Thanks for admitting that. Toshiba seems to be making a modest effort to
being linux compatible.
But the big players like Dell, Gateway, and HP...not so much.


Not only that but fewer and fewer developers are showing interest in
reverse engineering products just so the manufacturer can sell a few
more to customers they don't care about

Since linux is the minority user, I dont think things will much improve.


since more and more
manufacturers DO care about their customers enough to provide drivers
and/or specs to Linux developers. Fewer and fewer Linux users are
willing to purchase products from manufacturers that don't care about
them enough to make sure they can use the product they purchased in the
OS they choose.

Smart people who want to buy new hardware will check the HCL for
linux-compliance.
But most people start on windoze. And thats who the manufacturers pander
to.

Linux developers began making it a habbit to advertise
which manufacturers "played nice" and which didn't and Linux users who
needed such a product would primarily purchase from the former type of
manufacturer. This *has* had an effect on the willingness of many
manufacturers to develop and/or release specs for their products.
Manufacturers are beginning to understand that their customers have the
right to choose the OS they wish to use and if they want to be able to
compete in such a marketplace they need to share the information
necissary to use their products. There are a few, like digidesign who
don't play nice with ANYBODY, that are very slow to realize this; they
either will or they will go out of business...

You have to consider though: linux *users* are the minority. And as such
they have less monetary clout.
I see China beating the west with this combo: Linovo pc's which is what
they bought from IBM and since China uses mostly linux to begin
with...soon chinese computers running linux will appear in the US and
undercut the competiton on price & performance.


The whole "kludged and reverse engineered" thing has not been true for
quite some time now. You can easily design a computer to be 100% Linux
compatible by purchasing from companies who care about their customers.

But as it stands *now* wintel is the money.
Linux users have less clout.

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Noah Roberts wrote in
:

Dyn0 Mu77 wrote:

I havent given up. I'm still trying but when some LUSER brings me a
winboxen
and says "fix it" its way easier for me to patch it up than it is for
me to
even get a decent install of lin-whatever on my own pc.
And I took the A+ courses.


HAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAH. You're killing me...stop!!!

bows

waves to fans

Be sure & pay the dues if you want to join my fan club

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JohnO wrote in
:

And I took the A+ courses.

And I wrote some of the courses, and served on committees that created
A+
exams. It's not exactly relevant here, other than the fact that there
are a
lot more opportunities to learn Windows than any other OS. That's an
area
the Linux world needs to fix.

-John O

Blame the schools then. Their department heads decide what to teach based
on things like likelyhood of post-graduation employment.

If linux was seen as being core-knowledge then it would be taught.
We got two weeks of it and it wasnt even part of the final.

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Peter ?B?S8O2aGxtYW5u?= wrote in
:

It is my experience that those holding MCSEs are ignorant dimwits
They know next to nothing about computers in general, and when it comes to
integrate different architectures into a network it is they who fail
completely and in genral create a giant mess

After all, then it counts to have some basic knowledge beyonf blindly
clicking checkboxes


OMG! WTF! I YAM THROWING AWAY MY EDUMUHCAYSHUN!!!!!

snif

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Noah Roberts wrote in
:

Dyn0 Mu77 wrote:
"Noah Roberts" wrote in
oups.com:



Ð¥ñØMü++ wrote:


Now tell me that the exact same is true when I install from the SuSE
DVD


Did SuSE support the hardware without tweaks & swapping out cards &
turning stuff off in the BIOS?
Nope.

What are you talking about here? I almost never have to tweak
anything
in my BIOS to get hardware working. Those times that I do it is a
standard part of working with the hardware in question and Windows
requires it also.


Since when does windoze require you to "turn off plug & play os in
bios"?

Since when does Linux?

I'm not calling you a liar.

Nicely hedged. Just in case I produce documentation to prove my point.
LOL!
BTW, its interesting how you go from an initial measured, well thought-
out response to pointing, laughing and hopping about madly.
Bi-polar much?


I am saying you don't know wtf you are
talking about.

Why not just call me a "troll" and take the easy route?


This is rather obvious to anyone that does. Of course
you could be a liar, but I am giving you the benefit of the doubt.

I dont need your validation, sweetcheeks

Read my little essay entitled "further adventures in linuxland".

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Laurence Payne wrote in
:

On 10 Jun 2005 22:39:09 GMT, Unruh wrote:

Except that some people have found that Linux by default supports their
hardware where Windows did not. Of course the manufacturer might well
have
a driver to support that particular item, but you stillhave to load
that
driver, etc.

And some have found it doesn't, particularly with newer laptop
machines.

Most of which contain HCF "soft" modems.
If the linux community wants to kill off microsoft they need to
concentrate on this one issue: modem compatibility.

And I took the A+ courses.

And I wrote some of the courses, and served on committees that created A+
exams. It's not exactly relevant here, other than the fact that there are a
lot more opportunities to learn Windows than any other OS. That's an area
the Linux world needs to fix.

-John O

The world rejoiced as "JohnO" wrote:
And I took the A+ courses.

And I wrote some of the courses, and served on committees that created A+
exams. It's not exactly relevant here, other than the fact that there are a
lot more opportunities to learn Windows than any other OS. That's an area
the Linux world needs to fix.

I don't think that's true at all.

The whole MCSE experience has shown that making there be "more
opportunities to get shallow learning about Windows" leads to
certifications being of limited value. In effect, the primary value
of these certifications is as a cash stream to those operating the
certification programs.

Those interested in learning about system administration should
contact organizations like SAGE.
--
output = ("cbbrowne" "@" "gmail.com")
http://linuxdatabases.info/info/slony.html
Q: How many Newtons does it take to change a light bulb?
A: Faux! There to eat lemons, axe gravy soup!

begin virus.txt.scr JohnO wrote:

And I took the A+ courses.

And I wrote some of the courses, and served on committees that created A+
exams. It's not exactly relevant here, other than the fact that there are
a lot more opportunities to learn Windows than any other OS. That's an
area the Linux world needs to fix.

-John O

It is my experience that those holding MCSEs are ignorant dimwits
They know next to nothing about computers in general, and when it comes to
integrate different architectures into a network it is they who fail
completely and in genral create a giant mess

After all, then it counts to have some basic knowledge beyonf blindly
clicking checkboxes
--
"Last I checked, it wasn't the power cord for the Clue Generator that
was sticking up your ass." - John Novak, rasfwrj

Ð¥ñØmü++ wrote:

Blame the schools then. Their department heads decide what to teach based
on things like likelyhood of post-graduation employment.

If linux was seen as being core-knowledge then it would be taught.
We got two weeks of it and it wasnt even part of the final.

I severely blame the schools, because the schools are there to teach
the background theory, so that students can learn the technology easily.

Too many of them don't teach any of the background theory, and unfortunately
without showing a large variety of different operating systems and computer
architectures, it's impossible to explain why any one system does any
particular thing... every system consists of compromises and if the student
does not understand the alternatives they cannot understand why those
compromises are made.

I have seen actual accredited universities which require an MCSE as part
of the CS department graduation requirements and I think that is kind of
shameful. If the CS standards are any good, the student should be able
to learn all he needs to pass the MCSE in short order, and if they aren't
any good, the student can pretty much pass the MCSE test by simple
memorization.

I think by the time anyone graduates with a CS degree they should be
exposed to at least half a dozen different operating systems, including
at least one realtime system and at least one system designed for batch
processing. But what do I know? I don't make the ACM curriculum requirements.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

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On 2005-06-13 (ScottDorsey) said:
Blame the schools then. Their department heads decide what to
teach based on things like likelyhood of post-graduation
employment.
If linux was seen as being core-knowledge then it would be taught.
We got two weeks of it and it wasnt even part of the final.
I severely blame the schools, because the schools are there to teach
the background theory, so that students can learn the technology
easily. Too many of them don't teach any of the background theory,
and unfortunately without showing a large variety of different
operating systems and computer architectures, it's impossible to
explain why any one system does any particular thing... every
system consists of compromises and if the student does not
understand the alternatives they cannot understand why those
compromises are made. I have seen actual accredited universities
which require an MCSE as part of the CS department graduation
requirements and I think that is kind of shameful. If the CS
standards are any good, the student should be able to learn all he
needs to pass the MCSE in short order, and if they aren't any good,
the student can pretty much pass the MCSE test by simple
memorization. I think by the time anyone graduates with a CS degree
they should be exposed to at least half a dozen different operating
systems, including at least one realtime system and at least one
system designed for batch processing. But what do I know? I don't
make the ACM curriculum requirements.
True enough. I avoid windows and Mac os because I'm not a gui person.
Blind men don't point and click real well and most of the systems I've
seen for doing it are too costly without offering what I really want.
WHy would I buy the Mac screenreader when it doesn't offer full access
to pro tools?

I remember walking into a computer shop with a dude with all of his
degrees and certifications with a monitor which had been in a small
accident severing its connector from its innards. The dude couldn't
tell me he could find another connector and use some solder and make
the monitor work again but he could sell me another monitor. A friend
of mine told me which part to order from Rat shack and within two
weeks I had my better monitor again.

In too many disciplines the schools are busy teaching rote
memorization and not the underlying theory behind what the students
should know. I do blame the schools for this as I've seen it in too
many disciplines. Iv'e heard SCot's complaints echoed by others in
the computer science field and find it also true in electronics and
other fields as well. OUr educational system does a disservice to
students by teaching rote memorization instead of the skills which are
actually required.



Richard Webb,
Electric SPider Productions, New Orleans, La.
REplace anything before the @ symbol with elspider for real email

--



POOR PLANNING ON YOUR PART
Does NOT constitute an emergency on our part!

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Noah Roberts wrote in
:

Ð¥ñØmü++ wrote:
Noah Roberts wrote in
:

Thanks for admitting that. Toshiba seems to be making a modest effort
to
being linux compatible.
But the big players like Dell, Gateway, and HP...not so much.

Well, most HP devices work just fine on Linux. I guess the question
then is what Gateway devices you have installed in your PC lately.

What a stupid question. I was talking about systems, not components.

I guess ATI, Nvidia, M-Audio, Creative, etc. are small players in your
book. Interesting...


Works flawlessly with all linux distros then?
Thats amazing! Tell me more...


Since linux is the minority user, I dont think things will much
improve.

Well, I think it rather well established that what you think and reality
don't always mesh.

Reality is that linux dosent fully support my laptop.
Disprove that


But as it stands *now* wintel is the money.
Linux users have less clout.

Maybe in America but not for long and not by much. We have enough to
get the job done.

You still havent resolved the modem issue.
And lets not even get started on sound cards!

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Noah Roberts wrote in
:

Ð¥ñØmü++ wrote:
Noah Roberts wrote in
:


Dyn0 Mu77 wrote:

Since when does windoze require you to "turn off plug & play os in

bios"?

Since when does Linux?

I'm not calling you a liar.


Nicely hedged. Just in case I produce documentation to prove my point.

http://www.tldp.org/HOWTO/Plug-and-P...O-4.html#ss4.1

Go ahead.

You do NOT have to turn off plug and pray in the BIOS for Linux. It's a
fact, get over it and move on.

Why such an emotional commitment to an OS?

Not that it would be a major concern if
you did...but you don't.

LOL! Good thing I brought along my hedge clippers...


In fact, try this on for size:

"If you also run these Windows OS's on the same PC, you should say that
you don't have a PnP OS. That's what MS suggests you do."

This is in fact true though I only verified for XP Pro:
http://www.microsoft.com/resources/d...P/all/reskit/e
n-us/Default.asp?url=/resources/documentation/Windows/XP/all/reskit/en-
us/prdh_dmt_odlv.asp

For all systems they suggest disabling the PnP OS option. There is only
one type of system (granted most new ones fit the bill) for which it can
be either way because Windows just ignores the setting and bypasses it.
For all others:

"The system BIOS assigns device resources prior to the loading of the
operating system, and the Plug and Play BIOS setting must be
No/Disabled."

The same site (on Linux, not the MS one) *suggests* that you say you
don't have a PnP OS on later Linux kernels but I know that you do not
have to. Linux works just fine either way and the website states this
to be true in most cases.


ROTFLMAO! Heh...actually Ive read that its a Good Thing to disable PnP
for security reasons...on windoze hack sites no less.


Thanks btw, I learned something useful. I didn't realize you were
supposed to turn that off for any Windows OS less than 5 years old. I
don't suppose you actually knew that either or you wouldn't have brought
it up So to answer your original question, "Since when does Windows
require you shut off Plug and Play OS in the BIOS," your answer is not
at all what you seemed to expect.

Glad to help you on your journey to enlightenment, young one


What would you have won if you were right btw? How horrible is Windows
NOW?

Its whats working on my pc as I type this. I'm still looking for the
linux distro than can do the same with as good-as performance.


HAHAHAHAHA I'll say it for you, it doesn't matter one bit and in
fact that option is going the way of the dinosaur.

Which option is that? Windoze is still dominating the desktop.


Bye bye now.

Running away so soon?

Ð¥ñØmü++ wrote:
Noah Roberts wrote in
:


Dyn0 Mu77 wrote:

Since when does windoze require you to "turn off plug & play os in

bios"?

Since when does Linux?

I'm not calling you a liar.


Nicely hedged. Just in case I produce documentation to prove my point.

http://www.tldp.org/HOWTO/Plug-and-P...O-4.html#ss4.1

Go ahead.

You do NOT have to turn off plug and pray in the BIOS for Linux. It's a
fact, get over it and move on. Not that it would be a major concern if
you did...but you don't.

In fact, try this on for size:

"If you also run these Windows OS's on the same PC, you should say that
you don't have a PnP OS. That's what MS suggests you do."

This is in fact true though I only verified for XP Pro:
http://www.microsoft.com/resources/d...h_dmt_odlv.asp

For all systems they suggest disabling the PnP OS option. There is only
one type of system (granted most new ones fit the bill) for which it can
be either way because Windows just ignores the setting and bypasses it.
For all others:

"The system BIOS assigns device resources prior to the loading of the
operating system, and the Plug and Play BIOS setting must be No/Disabled."

The same site (on Linux, not the MS one) *suggests* that you say you
don't have a PnP OS on later Linux kernels but I know that you do not
have to. Linux works just fine either way and the website states this
to be true in most cases.

Thanks btw, I learned something useful. I didn't realize you were
supposed to turn that off for any Windows OS less than 5 years old. I
don't suppose you actually knew that either or you wouldn't have brought
it up So to answer your original question, "Since when does Windows
require you shut off Plug and Play OS in the BIOS," your answer is not
at all what you seemed to expect.

What would you have won if you were right btw? How horrible is Windows
NOW? HAHAHAHAHA I'll say it for you, it doesn't matter one bit and in
fact that option is going the way of the dinosaur.

Bye bye now.

Ð¥ñØmü++ wrote:
Noah Roberts wrote in
:

Thanks for admitting that. Toshiba seems to be making a modest effort to
being linux compatible.
But the big players like Dell, Gateway, and HP...not so much.

Well, most HP devices work just fine on Linux. I guess the question
then is what Gateway devices you have installed in your PC lately.

I guess ATI, Nvidia, M-Audio, Creative, etc. are small players in your
book. Interesting...

Since linux is the minority user, I dont think things will much improve.

Well, I think it rather well established that what you think and reality
don't always mesh.

But as it stands *now* wintel is the money.
Linux users have less clout.

Maybe in America but not for long and not by much. We have enough to
get the job done.

I severely blame the schools, because the schools are there to teach
the background theory, so that students can learn the technology easily.


In many cases they are being forced, by stakeholders (students and paying
parents) to teach skills directly traceable to job skills. Better teachers
sneak the background stuff in there, but the classic cry of "why do we need
to know this?" seems to run most post-secondary curricula.

The IT certification behemoth has replaced many of those topics, including
electronics, programming theory, and applied math.

Last, the curriculum is often driven by what the teacher already knows. Just
like the rest of the population, some teachers aren't big on changing their
ways.

-John O

John O wrote:

I severely blame the schools, because the schools are there to teach
the background theory, so that students can learn the technology easily.

In many cases they are being forced, by stakeholders (students and paying
parents) to teach skills directly traceable to job skills. Better teachers
sneak the background stuff in there, but the classic cry of "why do we need
to know this?" seems to run most post-secondary curricula.

That's not what colleges are _for_. That's what trade schools are for.
Now, trade schools are an excellent thing and should be encouraged, but
they are a different thing. I am disturbed at the notion of colleges
turning into trade schools.

The IT certification behemoth has replaced many of those topics, including
electronics, programming theory, and applied math.

Last, the curriculum is often driven by what the teacher already knows. Just
like the rest of the population, some teachers aren't big on changing their
ways.

That's the nice thing about teaching the theory: for the most part it does
not change. My 1973 edition of Knuth still gets regular use.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

That's the nice thing about teaching the theory: for the most part it does
not change. My 1973 edition of Knuth still gets regular use.

Volume 2 of the set is still the best IMO.

On Sat, 04 Jun 2005 14:20:04 -0700, jackson_pyle wrote:

What I fail to understand however, is why Linux users seem to be so
nasty, obscene and self righteous.

All communities have their share of obnoxious people. The Linux community
is no exception. You are not claiming that all Linux users seem to be
obnoxious, are you?

On 2005-06-14, Ð¥ñØmü++ wrote:
Noah Roberts wrote in
:

Ð¥ñØmü++ wrote:
Noah Roberts wrote in
:

Thanks for admitting that. Toshiba seems to be making a modest effort
to
being linux compatible.
But the big players like Dell, Gateway, and HP...not so much.

Well, most HP devices work just fine on Linux. I guess the question
then is what Gateway devices you have installed in your PC lately.

What a stupid question. I was talking about systems, not components.

I guess ATI, Nvidia, M-Audio, Creative, etc. are small players in your
book. Interesting...


Works flawlessly with all linux distros then?
Thats amazing! Tell me more...

An artificial standard.

All of those don't work flawlessly even under Windows.

[deletia]

Programming an expert system for PC games tech support can be
a real eye opener...

--
The best OS in the world is ultimately useless |||
if it is controlled by a Tramiel, Jobs or Gates. / | \

wrote:
snip/
Can Linux do what Samplitude/Sonar/Protools etc can do?

Linux is an operating system kernel. It isn't an audio processing software
package. The question you should ask was something in the lines of "Is
there any linux software package which has the same power as
samplitude/sonar/protools ?"

For your information, if their companies wanted to, there could be linux
versions of samplitude/sonar/protools. Nothing stops them.

snip/


Rui Maciel

Rui Maciel wrote:
wrote:
snip/
Can Linux do what Samplitude/Sonar/Protools etc can do?

Linux is an operating system kernel. It isn't an audio processing software
package. The question you should ask was something in the lines of "Is
there any linux software package which has the same power as
samplitude/sonar/protools ?"

And the answer to that question is obviously up for debate and has
already been debated to death. I use Linux for all my audio work,
others may feel it isn't enough for them.

"John O" writes:


I severely blame the schools, because the schools are there to teach
the background theory, so that students can learn the technology easily.


In many cases they are being forced, by stakeholders (students and paying
parents) to teach skills directly traceable to job skills. Better teachers
sneak the background stuff in there, but the classic cry of "why do we need
to know this?" seems to run most post-secondary curricula.
Nooooooo! I thought I had heard "why do we need to know this" for the last
time when I graduated. Now you go saying it...
Unfortunately, you are all to correct. Even in the highest level math class,
many of the students would gripe, "When will we ever need to use this?"
I got really tired of the narrow-minded focus on teaching you "job skills,"
especially in the computer classes. They would teach you how to use Windows
and not even mention anything else. Even my parents subscribe to the "The world
uses Windows, so that's what schools should teach" theory of education; who
knows what the world will be using 12 years hence, when today's kindergardeners
are entering the workforce? Teaching good technology and computer skills is
much more important than teaching how to use Windows alone.

The IT certification behemoth has replaced many of those topics, including
electronics, programming theory, and applied math.

Last, the curriculum is often driven by what the teacher already knows. Just
like the rest of the population, some teachers aren't big on changing their
ways.

-John O



--
If you have to hate, hate gently.

On 2005-06-25, Digi wrote:
"John O" writes:


I severely blame the schools, because the schools are there to teach
the background theory, so that students can learn the technology easily.


In many cases they are being forced, by stakeholders (students and paying
parents) to teach skills directly traceable to job skills. Better teachers
sneak the background stuff in there, but the classic cry of "why do we need
to know this?" seems to run most post-secondary curricula.
Nooooooo! I thought I had heard "why do we need to know this" for the last
time when I graduated. Now you go saying it...
Unfortunately, you are all to correct. Even in the highest level math class,
many of the students would gripe, "When will we ever need to use this?"

...and if the instructor can't manage a good answer then they don't
really have any imagination. The notion that a University should teach you
things relavant to the real world and to making money really isn't anything
new. This idea dates back over 500 years.

Current professors and TA's are just horrible about tying things
together and far too specialized to cope with the requirements of practitioners
who work outside of academia.

[deletia]

--
Apple: Because a large harddrive is for power users.