I am often fooled by the low bass in my mixes and am leaning toward
adding a sub to my stereo mix monitors. I currently have Tannoy Reveal
passives for nearfields and JBL 4410A passive monitors for midfields. I
have been looking at the Tapco SW10 and Tannoy TS 12 for my budget
range. Anyone have any experience with either of these subs?

In article .com,
wrote:
I am often fooled by the low bass in my mixes and am leaning toward
adding a sub to my stereo mix monitors. I currently have Tannoy Reveal
passives for nearfields and JBL 4410A passive monitors for midfields. I
have been looking at the Tapco SW10 and Tannoy TS 12 for my budget
range. Anyone have any experience with either of these subs?

I don't. But I will say that you should check out the room before you
invest in any hardware. If you have a bass problem in the room, adding
a subwoofer will just make it worse.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

In article .com writes:

I am often fooled by the low bass in my mixes and am leaning toward
adding a sub to my stereo mix monitors. I currently have Tannoy Reveal
passives for nearfields and JBL 4410A passive monitors for midfields.

If you can't hear the low end with your 4410s, you have an acoustic
problem and a subwoofer won't help. Go to your room!

Anything that you can't hear on a 4410 probably should be cut off
anyway. Watch the cones and see if their movement changes when you
throw in a 30 Hz high pass filter.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

wrote:
I am often fooled by the low bass in my mixes and am leaning toward
adding a sub to my stereo mix monitors. I currently have Tannoy Reveal
passives for nearfields and JBL 4410A passive monitors for midfields. I
have been looking at the Tapco SW10 and Tannoy TS 12 for my budget
range. Anyone have any experience with either of these subs?

My setup is almost identical to yours, except I'm using Tannoy PBM
6.5's with a Hafler P1500. Also have the 4410A's.

Check out the HSU 10" powered sub. It's clean all the way to 25cps.
Most won't go that low. It passes lower than the 25cps but the -3db
thingy kicks in. Here's the link and yes I have one and love it. I
got it to "hear" the lows not just feel a "thump in the butt".

http://www.hsustore.com/vtf2.html

Good luck,

Wayne

Sounds like you might want to have your room response checked and
invest in some acoustic treatment and/or repositioning of your monitors
before you add more speakers.

I don't believe it is about the room like everyone seems to think. I
have Owens-Corning 703 panels in strategic locations in what is already
a small room with very little parallel due to items in the room which
difract. I would rather not place a dedicated high pass filter in my
mix chain if I don't have to. My 4410's are have a lower range but, as
I said, I have been fooled by them also. I have a 4,000 watt FOH
rehearsal room upstairs which shows up unpleasant extreme low-end
sometimes but only when it is in the mix. Quality record mixes rarely
have the problem, only my occasional mixes. What I need to know is if
certain synth patches and high-tech active bass guitars which tend to
create unwanted frequencies below 80Hz are putting things in the mix
that only show up in bigger systems before I make the final mix. I do
like the idea of the high pass for the sake of the mix but should I
always just roll everything off at a certain low frequency?

By the way, how would you increase (not decrease) the low end of a room
with acoustic treatment or repositioning?

wrote:
I don't believe it is about the room like everyone seems to think. I
have Owens-Corning 703 panels in strategic locations in what is already
a small room with very little parallel due to items in the room which
difract.

This is good but none of it really has all that much to do with low end
response.

I would rather not place a dedicated high pass filter in my
mix chain if I don't have to. My 4410's are have a lower range but, as
I said, I have been fooled by them also.

I am not sure what you mean by a "dedicated high pass filter in your mix
chain." Are you saying that you need to high-pass everything because
you don't trust your ability to monitor low end? Or are you saying you
don't want a crossover in your monitor chain?

I have a 4,000 watt FOH
rehearsal room upstairs which shows up unpleasant extreme low-end
sometimes but only when it is in the mix. Quality record mixes rarely
have the problem, only my occasional mixes. What I need to know is if
certain synth patches and high-tech active bass guitars which tend to
create unwanted frequencies below 80Hz are putting things in the mix
that only show up in bigger systems before I make the final mix. I do
like the idea of the high pass for the sake of the mix but should I
always just roll everything off at a certain low frequency?

No, you need a monitoring system that can accurately reproduce the low
end. But if you have a room problem, and almost everyone does, putting
a sub into the room will just make it worse.

By the way, how would you increase (not decrease) the low end of a room
with acoustic treatment or repositioning?

First thing I would do is move the speakers closer to the rear wall,
so the bass reinforcement provided by the boundary is at a higher
frequency and stronger. I might even move them up into a corner
if that worked.

Second thing is that using bass traps can actually increase your low
end, by fixing standing wave problems. If you move around the room
and find that you have low end somewhere in the room but not anywhere
else, you have a standing wave problem. If you move around the room
and have no low end anywhere, you have a speaker problem.

If you have a speaker problem, and you add a crossover and a good sub
(and I second the recommendation for the Hsu Research subs) without
touching the room, you will have a standing wave problem.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

"Scott Dorsey" wrote:

[lowend probs]
But if you have a room problem, and almost everyone does,

ACK

putting
a sub into the room will just make it worse.

- Using 1 sub - well, maybe.
- With 2 subs - very probably not.
- =3 subs? - never ever!

http://www.harman.com/wp/pdf/multsubs.pdf

Rudi Fischer
--
....and may good music always be with you

In article . com writes:

I would rather not place a dedicated high pass filter in my
mix chain if I don't have to.

I suggested that as an experiment to see if you could hear any
difference with a filter in or out. It'll tell you if there's anything to
hear down there or not. In general, though, there really isn't much
use for audio down below what the 4410s will reproduce unless you're
making earthquake movie sound tracks or you're into the thumping
hiphop bass drum kind of sound.

What I need to know is if
certain synth patches and high-tech active bass guitars which tend to
create unwanted frequencies below 80Hz are putting things in the mix
that only show up in bigger systems before I make the final mix.

Exactly - and you should easily be able to hear that on your 4410s.
But as you suggest, you want to take care of that problem before you
mix. The $10 solution is to run a cable up to your rehearsal room and
give a listen to a test recording before you use that patch or
instrument, and edit the patch or roll off the bottom end of the
instrument before you record the track.

I do
like the idea of the high pass for the sake of the mix but should I
always just roll everything off at a certain low frequency?

Back when amateur musicians first started recording with synths, a
local tape duplication house used to switch in a 40 Hz high pass
filter whenever they got a tape in from a client they didn't know just
so that it wouldn't blow their speakers from the exaggerated bass that
was there but that the client never heard. They got a lot of tapes
like that.

By the way, how would you increase (not decrease) the low end of a room
with acoustic treatment or repositioning?

The bass is probably there, it's just not where you're listening. It's
probably hitting a wall and coming back to your listening position
through a path that's putting it enough out of phase with the direct
radiation from the speaker so that it's partially cancelled at your
ears. walk around the room and see if there's a place where the bass
comes up (probalby too much). That's where you need to add some
more absorbtion or maybe a trap.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

In article writes:

a sub into the room will just make it worse.

- Using 1 sub - well, maybe.
- With 2 subs - very probably not.
- =3 subs? - never ever!

http://www.harman.com/wp/pdf/multsubs.pdf

Would you trust the advice of a company who wants to sell you speakers
when they tell you that you need to buy two of them?

There's some logic to using a subwoofer for each main speaker, but it
doesn't have much to do with the ability to hear bass.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

Thanks. This is a hip tip.
peakester

wrote:


By the way, how would you increase (not decrease) the low end of a room
with acoustic treatment or repositioning?

Bass frequencies qome out of your speakers, hit the walls and bounce
back with varying degrees of phse coherency, mean yoo will be getting
some phase cancellation an losing bass. Adding bass traps and reducing
the amount of bass flying around will allow you to hear more.