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#1
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I noted with interest the differing opinions on cables, interconnects, price
points value for money etc. I noted the debates as to how many electrons can you lose etc. I've noted the shrillness of the blind test, sighted test debates and the "If it costs more" it's gotta sound better debates. Might I humbly suggest that the majority of the reason people buy these various cables and pay the amounts they do are for two reasons? Aesthetics Bragging rights I mean we've spent all this money on beautiful looking amps, CD players, speakers, racks, turntables and subs. How could we possibly hook it up with radio shack and lamp chord and call it a thing of beauty? |
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John Royer wrote:
I noted with interest the differing opinions on cables, interconnects, price points value for money etc. I noted the debates as to how many electrons can you lose etc. I've noted the shrillness of the blind test, sighted test debates and the "If it costs more" it's gotta sound better debates. Might I humbly suggest that the majority of the reason people buy these various cables and pay the amounts they do are for two reasons? Aesthetics Bragging rights I don't think so. I think most of these people really, honestly believe they are buying a better-sounding product--either because it sounds better to them or because they trust whoever told them it sounds better. And, frankly, why should you or I care why they do so? It's their money, and they're happy. I mean we've spent all this money on beautiful looking amps, CD players, speakers, racks, turntables and subs. How could we possibly hook it up with radio shack and lamp chord and call it a thing of beauty? And that is a perfectly good reason to choose a cable. In fact, it's why I try to keep my lampcord hidden! bob __________________________________________________ _______________ FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar – get it now! http://toolbar.msn.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/ |
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#5
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"John Royer" wrote in message
... Might I humbly suggest that the majority of the reason people buy these various cables and pay the amounts they do are for two reasons? Aesthetics Bragging rights I mean we've spent all this money on beautiful looking amps, CD players, speakers, racks, turntables and subs. How could we possibly hook it up with radio shack and lamp chord and call it a thing of beauty? I'm pretty much in total agreement here. Another thing might be the peace and comfort in their knowing that they bought the best their current available funds permit. After all when you feel good about yourself everything sounds and looks better. Since the whole shebang is in your mind anyway, they *are* right despite DBT and measurements. |
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On 4/28/04 11:45 PM, in article oT_jc.42116$YP5.3141755@attbi_s02,
"Nousaine" wrote: And that is a perfectly good reason to choose a cable. In fact, it's why I try to keep my lampcord hidden! bob But a common pitch given to a purchaser of a new amplifier or other device is "you wouldn't want to compromise this great sounding amplifier with cheap cables would you?" I was never given that pitch, though I can see how an unscrupulous salesperson might do so. If I ever buy "high end" cables it would be to upgrade the looks of the rats nest behind my stack, or if I needed some shielding also and the cables in question offered real shielding. Or I wanted that neat battery pack on the cloth bound cables from AQ! :-) |
#7
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John Royer writes:
I noted with interest the differing opinions on cables, interconnects, price points value for money etc. I noted the debates as to how many electrons can you lose etc. I've noted the shrillness of the blind test, sighted test debates and the "If it costs more" it's gotta sound better debates. Might I humbly suggest that the majority of the reason people buy these various cables and pay the amounts they do are for two reasons? Aesthetics Bragging rights It doesn't seem to be right to bag everyone into the groups "Subjectivist" or "Objectivist". It seems to me that there's a spectrum of beliefs in audio. Here's a few examples of things some people claim make a difference to their listening experience: The P.W.B. Red 'x' Co-ordinate Pen Tice Clock Shakti Stones Green CD marker pens Expensive cables with special properties Amplifiers with ineffable properties CD vs. SACD Supersonic tweeters Valve amplifiers Loudspeakers Room acoustics Aesthetics and Bragging rights don't explain all the things in this list. Everyone interested in hi-fi reproduction believes in some of these. There's a spectrum of belief here, not a simple yes/no. Andrew. |
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#10
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"Bob Marcus" wrote in message news:qKQnc.65610$kh4.3888785@attbi_s52...
There are a few things on your list that are a bit more complicated. For example, most of us would agree that valve amps can sound different from SS amps. But we disagree about why they do, and we disagree about whether the differences are good or bad. But opinions on these questions tend to break the same way that the simpler matters/doesn't matter question breaks: I don't know of any "objectivists" who think that tube amps really sound better. And I don't know too many tube enthusiasts who are willing to accept the idea that their preference is merely the result of euphonic distortions or frequency response anomalies caused by high output impedances. The line looks pretty clear to me. bob Despite many claims regarding the 'euphony' of tube amps, I dislike the mushy, distorted sound I hear from them in most cases. I was in a salon a couple of years ago listening to some fairly large speakers being, I believe, underdriven by some well-regarded tube amp. I pointed out that it stunk(!), and they switched to a more powerful tranny amp. Better. Much better. I am sometimes disappointed in how poor the hearing of audio salon personnel is. The combination was quite poor, and they didn't notice it. |
#11
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wrote in message
news:vLNnc.19847$z06.3270558@attbi_s01... John Royer writes: I noted with interest the differing opinions on cables, interconnects, price points value for money etc. I noted the debates as to how many electrons can you lose etc. I've noted the shrillness of the blind test, sighted test debates and the "If it costs more" it's gotta sound better debates. Might I humbly suggest that the majority of the reason people buy these various cables and pay the amounts they do are for two reasons? Aesthetics Bragging rights It doesn't seem to be right to bag everyone into the groups "Subjectivist" or "Objectivist". It seems to me that there's a spectrum of beliefs in audio. Here's a few examples of things some people claim make a difference to their listening experience: The P.W.B. Red 'x' Co-ordinate Pen Tice Clock Shakti Stones Green CD marker pens Expensive cables with special properties Amplifiers with ineffable properties CD vs. SACD Supersonic tweeters Valve amplifiers Loudspeakers Room acoustics Aesthetics and Bragging rights don't explain all the things in this list. Everyone interested in hi-fi reproduction believes in some of these. There's a spectrum of belief here, not a simple yes/no. There was once a fad for CD dampers. Mod Squad had one. Following that one following that one was another by Mel Schilling of "Music and Sound". His first location IIRC was in Pennsylvania. He was the first dealer in the USA to sell Magneplanar and Audio Research. He sold a SP3-A-1 and Tympani IIIA (8 panels in all) to a long lost friend of mine where I spent many an hour of listening. I remember his also having bought a Technics SP-10 turntable fitted with one of the first, if not THE first, Decca tonearm and cartridge, also from Mr. Schilling, whose "Music and Sound" moved to California. So for my little reminiscence, but these $20 disc dampers, little platters placed over CDs, could hardly come under the headings of aesthetics and bragging, being more like the green marking pens. Included in this group might be those little rings applied to the CDs outer edge and Armor All :-). I recall one of the first exotic, but short-lived, loudspeaker cables by Mark Levinson (the man), pure copper in a flat and very pliant plastic like casing. I remember listening to a Mark Levinson HQD system (Hartley sub-woofers, double stacked Quad speakers and Decca ribbon tweeters. Amps, preamps and crossovers for the whole system again by Levinson. It's nearly impossible for me to compare that system to today's modern marvels, but I feel it could more than hold its own. After all short term audio memory recall is said to be amazingly short, but 35 years? |
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Bob Marcus writes:
wrote: It doesn't seem to be right to bag everyone into the groups "Subjectivist" or "Objectivist".B It seems to me that there's a spectrum of beliefs in audio. As in anything. But there's also a very clear line between some beliefs and others. Some beliefs are supported by empirical evidence. Others aren't. That's true. Here's a few examples of things some people claim make a difference to their listening experience: B The P.W.B. Red 'x' Co-ordinate Pen B Tice Clock B Shakti Stones B Green CD marker pens B Expensive cables with special properties B Amplifiers with ineffable properties B CD vs. SACD B Supersonic tweeters B Valve amplifiers B Loudspeakers B Room acoustics Aesthetics and Bragging rights don't explain all the things in this list.B Everyone interested in hi-fi reproduction believes in some of these.B Please explain what it means to "believe in loudspeakers." Oh come on, Bob. I'm talking about whether making a change to X will have an audible effect. You're trying to create some equivalence between the real and the imaginary here. No, I don't think so. I'm making no judgment in this post about whether people's beliefs are true or false. That's like saying, some people believe in chemotherapy, and some people believe in laetrile. That is in fact the case. The point I'm trying to make is that almost everyone is skeptical with regard to _something_. Even the most credulous hi-fi tweaker probably has difficulty believing that The P.W.B. Red 'x' Co-ordinate Pen has an audible effect. There's a spectrum of belief here, not a simple yes/no. No, for most of the items on your list, there is a simple yes/no. Either we have empirical evidence that it can make a difference, or we don't. That's a different question. I'm talking about a spectrum of belief, not a spectrum of reality. Perhaps the most vocal "subjectivists" here would draw a line somewhere in the region of Shakti Stones. Your primary concern seems to be "does this have a real sonic effect?" That is an interesting question, but another interesting question is "what do people believe?" closely followed by "why do they believe it?" Andrew. |
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#14
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"Michael Scarpitti" wrote in message
... "Bob Marcus" wrote in message news:qKQnc.65610$kh4.3888785@attbi_s52... Despite many claims regarding the 'euphony' of tube amps, I dislike the mushy, distorted sound I hear from them in most cases. I was in a salon a couple of years ago listening to some fairly large speakers being, I believe, underdriven by some well-regarded tube amp. I pointed out that it stunk(!), and they switched to a more powerful tranny amp. Better. Much better. I am sometimes disappointed in how poor the hearing of audio salon personnel is. The combination was quite poor, and they didn't notice it. Any equipment running outside its operational envelope, like the example you sited, is going to be audibly distingushible from equipment that is not being overdriven at the input, or running into the output clipping level, etc. etc. One of the high-end audio stores here is run by a blind guy. Talk about someone who knows about "blind testing"! From my brief meetings with him, I would be absolutely positive that he would have heard the issue you noted above -- in about 2.5 seconds or less... He may just have the ultimate marketing excuse for being selective, I don't know. But I do know that when he says he can hear the difference, I believe him. -afh3 |
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Panzzi wrote:
wrote in news:x96oc.71447$Ik.5193990@attbi_s53: Your primary concern seems to be "does this have a real sonic effect?" That is an interesting question, but another interesting question is "what do people believe?" closely followed by "why do they believe it?" Andrew. I am a believer! A believer of not all things (indeed, very little things)can be proved by present so called science. But we still live in this world. If you don't believe what 'so called science' has to say, on what basis do you believe what you believe? So when people said, "you can't prove it by using physics, maths, chemistry, or what so ever, it is not true!" Then I will say, "Prove to me that your next step will not make you fall." Or "Prove to me that you love your mother." And I will say, what do you accept as *proof* of anything? What are *your* standards of proof? People believe they can hear and are hearing the difference, as quoted from Andrew, is a "spectrum of people"; people believe that there is no scientific prove, so there is no difference, when they heard the difference, they thought of something else to disprove it, that is another "spectrum of people". Do you believe that it's possible for a statement to objectively be *right* or *wrong* , or is it always a 'spectrum of beliefs'? -- -S. "They've got God on their side. All we've got is science and reason." -- Dawn Hulsey, Talent Director |
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Back when used to look at some of the literature I read an article
about "high quality" cable. The writer came to the conclusion that yes, there is a difference, but that cheap wires may sound better than expensive, heavy duty cable. One of my Probe Jades ( powered by Mac tubes) has heavy cable, the other the cheapest wire possible...no difference in sound. BTW I am easy to please with TV...a 19` set is OK for me, but I require great audio for music. |
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"Panzzi" wrote in message
... wrote in news:x96oc.71447$Ik.5193990@attbi_s53: Your primary concern seems to be "does this have a real sonic effect?" That is an interesting question, but another interesting question is "what do people believe?" closely followed by "why do they believe it?" Andrew. I am a believer! A believer of not all things (indeed, very little things)can be proved by present so called science. But we still live in this world. So when people said, "you can't prove it by using physics, maths, chemistry, or what so ever, it is not true!" Then I will say, "Prove to me that your next step will not make you fall." Or "Prove to me that you love your mother." This a rather specious argument which I regularly need to clarify for my students. In explaining the difference between knowledge and belief, I hold text book in my hand away from my body and ask, "Who believes that if I let go of the book it will fall?" Invariably someone will catch on and say that it's a silly question because there is no need for belief as the question is one of known fact. Gravity works and we know the book will fall. I then ask for them to prove it, which they can't do and get flustered about. I remind them that we don't need to prove it for this particular book in my particular hand at this particular time for it to still be a known fact. The proof was constructed centuries ago. That's how proof works. The green CD pen has been proven not only not to work, but to have no mechanism in which to work. Such belief in a disproven theory is the definition of misguided. Bruce People believe they can hear and are hearing the difference, as quoted from Andrew, is a "spectrum of people"; people believe that there is no scientific prove, so there is no difference, when they heard the difference, they thought of something else to disprove it, that is another "spectrum of people". So, when people told me the little magic green CD marker can make their music sounds better, I can only say, "I wish your green CD marker can do the same thing to my music!" With a smile. Panzzi |
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#19
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"One of the high-end audio stores here is run by a blind guy. Talk about
someone who knows about "blind testing"! From my brief meetings with him, I would be absolutely positive that he would have heard the issue you noted above -- in about 2.5 seconds or less... He may just have the ultimate marketing excuse for being selective, I don't know. But I do know that when he says he can hear the difference, I believe him." The blind notion was tested, a group of blind folk did no better in identifying gear by listening alone then do sighted folk. The "blind folk have superior hearing" is an urban myth. Blind folk pay more attention to sound as clues for the space they are in and only listen differently to the sound clues there for anyone to hear. They can determine spacial information more easily from the practical practice of benefiting from doing so. I think it possible they can be aware of more spacial information on a recording and perhaps realize the recording is therefore more "real" then some other recording with regard to fidelity of spacial information. That the guy is blind doesn't exclude him from all of the distortions of perception sighted folk have when knowing which bit is being heard. |
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"Perhaps he is talking about an unhappiness with the current state of the
art? There are also a lot of individuals who claim to be scientific types that reject observation out of hand and call into question the people that report those observations. I would point out, that both the sate of the art and rejecting observations out of hand are NOT science or the scientific method - but human reaction." You fail to mention two things, observation also is not the end step, testing them in a structured way is so as to test explanations of them and to exclude irrelevant variables. There is a current state of the art in testing and an established benchmark based on some number of the listening alone tests being done for wire and amps. Given the very consistent results, all additional observations can be evaluated and that only with testing can any additional observation be shown not to be but one more example of the previous results. |
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"afh3" wrote in message news:YBdoc.28561$536.5392150@attbi_s03...
"Michael Scarpitti" wrote in message ... "Bob Marcus" wrote in message news:qKQnc.65610$kh4.3888785@attbi_s52... Despite many claims regarding the 'euphony' of tube amps, I dislike the mushy, distorted sound I hear from them in most cases. I was in a salon a couple of years ago listening to some fairly large speakers being, I believe, underdriven by some well-regarded tube amp. I pointed out that it stunk(!), and they switched to a more powerful tranny amp. Better. Much better. I am sometimes disappointed in how poor the hearing of audio salon personnel is. The combination was quite poor, and they didn't notice it. Any equipment running outside its operational envelope, like the example you sited, is going to be audibly distingushible from equipment that is not being overdriven at the input, or running into the output clipping level, etc. etc. Tubes just don't have the power that transistors do. I have never heard a tube amp that I liked. Never. One of the high-end audio stores here is run by a blind guy. Talk about someone who knows about "blind testing"! From my brief meetings with him, I would be absolutely positive that he would have heard the issue you noted above -- in about 2.5 seconds or less... He may just have the ultimate marketing excuse for being selective, I don't know. But I do know that when he says he can hear the difference, I believe him. -afh3 |
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#25
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chung wrote in :
So, do you think that we can never prove if magic green CD markers can make any difference? No, chung. I'm not saying that the magic green CD markers can actually make any sonic difference itself. All I'm saying, if the magic green CD marker can makes Mr. XXX feels better or lead him to belief that there is a difference, that is fine. I wish that same magic green CD marker can make me feel the same way, too. Same thing, yesterday I went to a furniture store and saw a $10,000.00 "Hi- Fi chair", if by seating on it I can hear a $10,000.00 difference, well, even a $5,000.00 difference, I will buy it! Listening is a pleasure, it just like traveling. My friends questioned me about spending $20,000.00 on a cruise tour is worth or not? I said, "Scientifilly, it might not worth it, but I like it, and my family like it, that is all that matter." Panzzi |
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Panzzi wrote:
chung wrote in : So, do you think that we can never prove if magic green CD markers can make any difference? No, chung. I'm not saying that the magic green CD markers can actually make any sonic difference itself. You are not answering my question. You said that some things can never be proven. My question was, and is, do you believe that we can ever prove that magic green CD markers make a difference. |
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#28
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On 5/13/04 3:06 PM, in article BGPoc.42335$z06.6207688@attbi_s01, "chung"
wrote: You are not answering my question. You said that some things can never be proven. My question was, and is, do you believe that we can ever prove that magic green CD markers make a difference. Sure you can! Next time you use them, you will be able to prove that they make the edge of your CD turn GREEN! Seriously, though, the right question would be WHAT KIND of difference would they make, and how could one measure it? |
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Stewart Pinkerton wrote in message news:CcMoc.763$Dz.99286@attbi_s52...
On 13 May 2004 03:05:05 GMT, (Michael Scarpitti) wrote: Tubes just don't have the power that transistors do. A sweeping generalisation that is simply not true in many cases. I have never heard a tube amp that I liked. Never. Perhaps you should listen to some *good* tube amps, such as the ARC VT-100 or the C-J Premier Eight. You'll find that they sound just like a good SS amp, i.e. they don't *have* any sound of their own. I HAVE heard the big Audio Research stuff. I was including them in my statement. I have heard Conrad-Johnson too, but not recently. Tubes do not sound good to my ears. |
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From: Bromo
Date: 5/13/2004 5:04 PM Pacific Standard Time Message-id: d2Uoc.43245$536.7593177@attbi_s03 On 5/12/04 11:04 PM, in article , " wrote: You fail to mention two things, observation also is not the end step, Yes, that's true - but I made no claims that it WAS the end step. In science it is the first step. In audiophilia it is the first and last steps. |
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Stewart Pinkerton
wrote: On 13 May 2004 03:05:05 GMT, (Michael Scarpitti) wrote: Tubes just don't have the power that transistors do. A sweeping generalisation that is simply not true in many cases. If the former were true given the models presently being sold (might be true) wouldn't that mean that according to current audio urban legend tubes are more dangerous to speakers? I'm wondering where the thread about Cary amps blowing tweets might be? I have never heard a tube amp that I liked. Never. Perhaps you should listen to some *good* tube amps, such as the ARC VT-100 or the C-J Premier Eight. You'll find that they sound just like a good SS amp, i.e. they don't *have* any sound of their own. -- Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering OK I'm proposing a Battle of the Urban Legends here. Are the present assemblage of tubed amps lower powered than solid amps? It would seem to me that this may be the case as a rule of thumb. Indeed I'm referencing the S&V 2004 Buyers Guide and the Cary Audio transistor amplifiers are all rated from 100 to 200 watts into 8 ohms while the tubed models are rated at 15 to 50 watts. If this were the case and the Urban Legend that "small" amplifiers are dangerous to tweeters is also true ......then why aren't we seeing threads about the awful problems that tubed owners are having with cooked tweeters (and/or other drivers)? |
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Bromo wrote:
On 5/13/04 3:06 PM, in article BGPoc.42335$z06.6207688@attbi_s01, "chung" wrote: You are not answering my question. You said that some things can never be proven. My question was, and is, do you believe that we can ever prove that magic green CD markers make a difference. Sure you can! Next time you use them, you will be able to prove that they make the edge of your CD turn GREEN! Seriously, though, the right question would be WHAT KIND of difference would they make, and how could one measure it? Of course we are talking about sonic differences in this discussion. The question is not whether he or you believes there is a difference. It is whether Mr. Panzzi thinks that there is a way to prove whether there is a sonic difference. He seems to be of the opinion that these type of effects cannot be proven to exist or not exist. |
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Bruce Abrams wrote:
"Panzzi" wrote in message ... wrote in news:x96oc.71447$Ik.5193990@attbi_s53: Your primary concern seems to be "does this have a real sonic effect?" That is an interesting question, but another interesting question is "what do people believe?" closely followed by "why do they believe it?" Andrew. I am a believer! A believer of not all things (indeed, very little things)can be proved by present so called science. But we still live in this world. So when people said, "you can't prove it by using physics, maths, chemistry, or what so ever, it is not true!" Then I will say, "Prove to me that your next step will not make you fall." Or "Prove to me that you love your mother." This a rather specious argument which I regularly need to clarify for my students. In explaining the difference between knowledge and belief, I hold text book in my hand away from my body and ask, "Who believes that if I let go of the book it will fall?" Invariably someone will catch on and say that it's a silly question because there is no need for belief as the question is one of known fact. Gravity works and we know the book will fall. I then ask for them to prove it, which they can't do and get flustered about. I remind them that we don't need to prove it for this particular book in my particular hand at this particular time for it to still be a known fact. The proof was constructed centuries ago. That's how proof works. The green CD pen has been proven not only not to work, but to have no mechanism in which to work. Such belief in a disproven theory is the definition of misguided. Bruce People believe they can hear and are hearing the difference, as quoted from Andrew, is a "spectrum of people"; people believe that there is no scientific prove, so there is no difference, when they heard the difference, they thought of something else to disprove it, that is another "spectrum of people". So, when people told me the little magic green CD marker can make their music sounds better, I can only say, "I wish your green CD marker can do the same thing to my music!" With a smile. Panzzi Let me add another anecdote to this story. I have a good friend who owned a particular high-end model amplifier. He once told me that it was sonically superior to one of my amplifiers. After a short "how do you know this" session he agreed to bring it to my next audio club meeting for a controlled listening test. After failing to reliably identify his "baby" when compared to my unit along with a few other members he complained that the "system" was unfamiliar and that probably masked differences. So I installed the test set-up (ABX switch) in his home reference system and asked him to 1) figure out IF the amplifiers did sound different and 2) select the programs that MOST signficantly HIGHLIGHTED those differences. After 5-weeks of in-situ practice he still held the opinion that the amplifiers DID sound different and I went to his reference system so he could demonstrate this to anyone else. But even using his own system; 5-weeks of practice, specially selected programs he was unable to reliably identify his own amp in his own system when levels channel-to-channel were matched at 100 and 1 kHz and 10 kHz. So if you want to think that he enjoyed some special satisfaction from "thinking" that his amplifier was superior.... so be it. But don't stop the rest of us for searching for real acoustical differences upon which to make selection decisions. And don't be afraid of lurkers being aware of what controlled listening tests have revealed to us. |
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You were faulting some people for excluding some observations as
incomplete investigation, to which I mentioned it remains also incomplete if all the observations are collected and some testing of them is not done. After collecting, exclusions of observations as not verified by emperical comparsion is the final step before explanation. It wasn't what you said but what you failed to say. You fail to mention two things, observation also is not the end step, Yes, that's true - but I made no claims that it WAS the end step. |
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Bromo wrote in :
On 5/13/04 3:06 PM, in article BGPoc.42335$z06.6207688@attbi_s01, "chung" wrote: You are not answering my question. You said that some things can never be proven. My question was, and is, do you believe that we can ever prove that magic green CD markers make a difference. Sure you can! Next time you use them, you will be able to prove that they make the edge of your CD turn GREEN! Seriously, though, the right question would be WHAT KIND of difference would they make, and how could one measure it? My answer is: I do not believe that we can ever prove that magic green CD markers make a difference. All I'm trying to say is: if that so called magic green CD markers can make anyone sense a difference, then there is a value of its existence. Same thing as I like Japanese Sashimi a lot, but a lot of my friends scare to death! Can I prove to them the raw fish taste really really good and they are silly not to try that? Panzzi |
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On 5/14/04 12:15 PM, in article Lg6pc.377$gr.33538@attbi_s52, "S888Wheel"
wrote: From: Bromo Date: 5/13/2004 5:04 PM Pacific Standard Time Message-id: d2Uoc.43245$536.7593177@attbi_s03 On 5/12/04 11:04 PM, in article , " wrote: You fail to mention two things, observation also is not the end step, Yes, that's true - but I made no claims that it WAS the end step. In science it is the first step. In audiophilia it is the first and last steps. Therein lies the difference between profession and HOBBY. |
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Panzzi wrote:
Bromo wrote in : On 5/13/04 3:06 PM, in article BGPoc.42335$z06.6207688@attbi_s01, "chung" wrote: You are not answering my question. You said that some things can never be proven. My question was, and is, do you believe that we can ever prove that magic green CD markers make a difference. Sure you can! Next time you use them, you will be able to prove that they make the edge of your CD turn GREEN! Seriously, though, the right question would be WHAT KIND of difference would they make, and how could one measure it? My answer is: I do not believe that we can ever prove that magic green CD markers make a difference. Is that the same as saying that you can never prove that magic green markers do not make a difference? All I'm trying to say is: if that so called magic green CD markers can make anyone sense a difference, then there is a value of its existence. If someone says that he senses that 1+1=3, does it follow then that there is a value to saying 1+1=3? Same thing as I like Japanese Sashimi a lot, but a lot of my friends scare to death! Can I prove to them the raw fish taste really really good and they are silly not to try that? So it seems like you are extrapolating that to say that we can never prove anything when it comes to audio, or anything in life for that matter. Panzzi |
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Bromo wrote:
On 5/14/04 12:15 PM, in article Lg6pc.377$gr.33538@attbi_s52, "S888Wheel" wrote: From: Bromo Date: 5/13/2004 5:04 PM Pacific Standard Time Message-id: d2Uoc.43245$536.7593177@attbi_s03 On 5/12/04 11:04 PM, in article , " wrote: You fail to mention two things, observation also is not the end step, Yes, that's true - but I made no claims that it WAS the end step. In science it is the first step. In audiophilia it is the first and last steps. Therein lies the difference between profession and HOBBY. True. But you never hear birdwatchers rejecting the research findings of biologists and claiming that their methodology hasn't been validated. bob __________________________________________________ _______________ Getting married? Find tips, tools and the latest trends at MSN Life Events. http://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=married |
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