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#1
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Ultrabit Platium Disk Treatment
Robert Hartley, Absolute Sound, gave rave reviews to the Ultrabit Disk
Treatment. Has anyone tried this? The price is outrageous for a two ounce bottle of stuff ($65) plus $8.00 shipping. It can't cost the guy more than a buck to produce it. What other disk treatments are available? What I am thinking is that if I paid over $70 for a small bottle of disk teatment, I at least would believe I heard some improvement!!!! |
#2
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Ultrabit Platium Disk Treatment
On Jul 18, 8:42 pm, wrote:
Robert Hartley, Absolute Sound, gave rave reviews to the Ultrabit Disk Treatment. Has anyone tried this? The price is outrageous for a two ounce bottle of stuff ($65) plus $8.00 shipping. It can't cost the guy more than a buck to produce it. What other disk treatments are available? What I am thinking is that if I paid over $70 for a small bottle of disk teatment, I at least would believe I heard some improvement!!!! Do a web search for "Barry Ornitz" and "CD Optical Impedance Matching Fluid" to find the origin of this substance. Note especially that it was published on April 1st. |
#3
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Ultrabit Platium Disk Treatment
On Jul 18, 8:42*pm, wrote:
Robert Hartley, Absolute Sound, gave rave reviews to the Ultrabit Disk Treatment. *Has anyone tried this? *The price is outrageous for a two ounce bottle of stuff ($65) plus $8.00 shipping. It can't cost the guy more than a buck to produce it. *What other disk treatments are available? *What I am thinking is that if I paid over $70 for a small bottle of disk teatment, I at least would *believe I heard some improvement!!!! Its snake oil. "Magic" treatments like this cannot have a significant impact on sound given the binary nature of digital data on good media. CDs have error correction that should result in perfect reproduction in media that is not overly dirty or damaged. Even with uncorrectable errors, data hiding is usually effective in preventing obvious sound degradation. If this fails, the results are painfully obvious with very choppy playback or no sound at all. It is usually possible to clean or repair CDs that cause these sorts of problems, but there is no need to use such overpriced gimmicks. |
#4
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Ultrabit Platium Disk Treatment
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#5
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Ultrabit Platium Disk Treatment
On Jul 19, 10:06*am, wrote:
Note especially that it was published on April 1st. Amen. Note additionally that Barry has a sense of humor that is both dry and irreverent. Peter Wieck Melrose Park, PA |
#6
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Ultrabit Platium Disk Treatment
wrote in message
Robert Hartley, Absolute Sound, gave rave reviews to the Ultrabit Disk Treatment. Has anyone tried this? The price is outrageous for a two ounce bottle of stuff ($65) plus $8.00 shipping. Hmm, is this an ad for it? http://www.tweekgeek.com/_e/Digital_..._treatment.htm Is this the Enjoythemusic.com review of it? http://www.thehornshoppe.com/ultrabit_platinumPDF.pdf Is this the manufacturer's white paper justifying it? http://www.thehornshoppe.com/SOMEREFLECTIONSADZ.doc It can't cost the guy more than a buck to produce it. What other disk treatments are available? Supposedly, the developer of Ultrabit also developed Finyl for Vinyl LPs. and Finyl the Digital Solution. What I am thinking is that if I paid over $70 for a small bottle of disk teatment, I at least would believe I heard some improvement!!!! As you know, that's how snake oil works. People have to justify their investment, so they perceive an irrelevant benefit. |
#7
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Ultrabit Platium Disk Treatment
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#8
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Ultrabit Platium Disk Treatment
On Jul 20, 2:50 pm, Steven Sullivan wrote:
wrote: Do a web search for "Barry Ornitz" and "CD Optical Impedance Matching Fluid" to find the origin of this substance. Note especially that it was published on April 1st. So far no luck finding these together on google groups or google web. The original was posted back in 1990: that may have been before the reorganization of the rec.audio hierarchy, and many news archive servers may not have it. Check out any of them that have archived plain ol' rec.audio or, before that. net.audio. I have the original posting around somewhere. along with Jim Johnston's April Fool's joke about using a green pen on the edge of CD's, posted around the same time. |
#9
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Ultrabit Platium Disk Treatment
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#10
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Ultrabit Platium Disk Treatment
Back in the 80s there was a publication (CD Review?) but out by Wayne
Green. He advertised a green pen called "Balonium" for about $3. ---MIKE--- In the White Mountains of New Hampshire (44° 15' N - Elevation 1580') |
#11
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Ultrabit Platium Disk Treatment
Steven Sullivan wrote:
wrote: On Jul 18, 8:42 pm, wrote: Robert Hartley, Absolute Sound, gave rave reviews to the Ultrabit Disk Treatment. Has anyone tried this? The price is outrageous for a two ounce bottle of stuff ($65) plus $8.00 shipping. It can't cost the guy more than a buck to produce it. What other disk treatments are available? What I am thinking is that if I paid over $70 for a small bottle of disk teatment, I at least would believe I heard some improvement!!!! Do a web search for "Barry Ornitz" and "CD Optical Impedance Matching Fluid" to find the origin of this substance. Note especially that it was published on April 1st. So far no luck finding these together on google groups or google web. Anyone got a link? I googled "CD Optical Impedance Matching Fluid" and found this Stereophile article; http://stereophile.com/reference/590jitter/ They tried a product called CD spotlight by Audio Prism and were surprised to find that it did make a difference. They then backed it up with a technical explanation as to why the difference was probably there. I am very much inclined to believe it. I also believe in bi-wiring. I've tried it and I'm never going back. Now when I see a speaker with only one pair of speaker terminals, I tend to look down on it. Before I tried biwiring, I didn't really care. This notion some believe that bi-wiring was invented to sell more speaker cable is total bull. The perfect analogy is how many people also believe that the US carmakers were in cahoots with the oil companies to produce big giant gas guzzling SUVs. Well, here we are. Oil is at $140/barrel and all US carmakers are on life support while all the oil companies are enjoying the biggest profits of any company ever. Staggering could better describe their profit margin. I also have Densen's DeMagic CD. Again, many people say its effect is bogus. I've tried it and definitely noticed a difference. The effect was most apparent only the 1st time I used it, though. After that, I've used it every couple of months and haven't noticed a change. Perhaps I haven't given my electronics enough time to get magnetically out of alignment. It's preventive maintenance, then. I do not subscribe to Monster Cables belief in speaker wire. While I would believe that speaker wire makes a difference, the difference is incredibly small. Monster Cable is a perfect example of way-over-engineering. I'll just buy any run of the mill 12 gauge speaker cable and appreciate that difference. So, what does that make me, and Audiophool or an Audiophile? CD |
#12
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Ultrabit Platium Disk Treatment
---MIKE--- wrote:
Back in the 80s there was a publication (CD Review?) but out by Wayne Green. He advertised a green pen called "Balonium" for about $3. Some of the history can be read he http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/49381-6-green-tweak |
#13
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Ultrabit Platium Disk Treatment
Codifus wrote:
Steven Sullivan wrote: wrote: On Jul 18, 8:42 pm, wrote: Robert Hartley, Absolute Sound, gave rave reviews to the Ultrabit Disk Treatment. Has anyone tried this? The price is outrageous for a two ounce bottle of stuff ($65) plus $8.00 shipping. It can't cost the guy more than a buck to produce it. What other disk treatments are available? What I am thinking is that if I paid over $70 for a small bottle of disk teatment, I at least would believe I heard some improvement!!!! Do a web search for "Barry Ornitz" and "CD Optical Impedance Matching Fluid" to find the origin of this substance. Note especially that it was published on April 1st. So far no luck finding these together on google groups or google web. Anyone got a link? I googled "CD Optical Impedance Matching Fluid" and found this Stereophile article; http://stereophile.com/reference/590jitter/ They tried a product called CD spotlight by Audio Prism and were surprised to find that it did make a difference. They then backed it up with a technical explanation as to why the difference was probably there. I am very much inclined to believe it. It's CD *Stoplight*, and Harley's 'technical explanation' for the supposedly audible effect, is nonsense. I also believe in bi-wiring. I've tried it and I'm never going back. Another 'tweak' with essentialy no basis for audible difference. I also have Densen's DeMagic CD. Again, many people say its effect is bogus. I've tried it and definitely noticed a difference. The effect was most apparent only the 1st time I used it, though. After that, I've used it every couple of months and haven't noticed a change. Perhaps I haven't given my electronics enough time to get magnetically out of alignment. It's preventive maintenance, then. It's more likely sighted bias. So, what does that make me, and Audiophool or an Audiophile? No comment. -- -S A wise man, therefore, proportions his belief to the evidence. -- David Hume, "On Miracles" (1748) |
#14
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Ultrabit Platium Disk Treatment
Norman M. Schwartz wrote:
---MIKE--- wrote: Back in the 80s there was a publication (CD Review?) but out by Wayne Green. He advertised a green pen called "Balonium" for about $3. Some of the history can be read he http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/49381-6-green-tweak LOL. The 'Anonymous' author of that first post, is me. I started that thread. -- -S A wise man, therefore, proportions his belief to the evidence. -- David Hume, "On Miracles" (1748) |
#15
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Ultrabit Platium Disk Treatment
On Wed, 23 Jul 2008 15:58:28 -0700, Steven Sullivan wrote
(in article ): Codifus wrote: Steven Sullivan wrote: wrote: On Jul 18, 8:42 pm, wrote: Robert Hartley, Absolute Sound, gave rave reviews to the Ultrabit Disk Treatment. Has anyone tried this? The price is outrageous for a two ounce bottle of stuff ($65) plus $8.00 shipping. It can't cost the guy more than a buck to produce it. What other disk treatments are available? What I am thinking is that if I paid over $70 for a small bottle of disk teatment, I at least would believe I heard some improvement!!!! Do a web search for "Barry Ornitz" and "CD Optical Impedance Matching Fluid" to find the origin of this substance. Note especially that it was published on April 1st. So far no luck finding these together on google groups or google web. Anyone got a link? I googled "CD Optical Impedance Matching Fluid" and found this Stereophile article; http://stereophile.com/reference/590jitter/ They tried a product called CD spotlight by Audio Prism and were surprised to find that it did make a difference. They then backed it up with a technical explanation as to why the difference was probably there. I am very much inclined to believe it. It's CD *Stoplight*, and Harley's 'technical explanation' for the supposedly audible effect, is nonsense. Also known as "THE green pen". In a double blind test using multiple copies of a number of CDs where one was treated and one wasn't, the consensus was that there was no discernible difference between "treated" and non-treated copies of the same CD. I also believe in bi-wiring. I've tried it and I'm never going back. Another 'tweak' with essentialy no basis for audible difference. Amen. I also have Densen's DeMagic CD. Again, many people say its effect is bogus. I've tried it and definitely noticed a difference. The effect was most apparent only the 1st time I used it, though. After that, I've used it every couple of months and haven't noticed a change. Perhaps I haven't given my electronics enough time to get magnetically out of alignment. It's preventive maintenance, then. It's more likely sighted bias. So, what does that make me, and Audiophool or an Audiophile? No comment. |
#16
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Ultrabit Platium Disk Treatment
Steven Sullivan wrote:
Codifus wrote: Steven Sullivan wrote: wrote: On Jul 18, 8:42 pm, wrote: Robert Hartley, Absolute Sound, gave rave reviews to the Ultrabit Disk Treatment. Has anyone tried this? The price is outrageous for a two ounce bottle of stuff ($65) plus $8.00 shipping. It can't cost the guy more than a buck to produce it. What other disk treatments are available? What I am thinking is that if I paid over $70 for a small bottle of disk teatment, I at least would believe I heard some improvement!!!! Do a web search for "Barry Ornitz" and "CD Optical Impedance Matching Fluid" to find the origin of this substance. Note especially that it was published on April 1st. So far no luck finding these together on google groups or google web. Anyone got a link? I googled "CD Optical Impedance Matching Fluid" and found this Stereophile article; http://stereophile.com/reference/590jitter/ They tried a product called CD spotlight by Audio Prism and were surprised to find that it did make a difference. They then backed it up with a technical explanation as to why the difference was probably there. I am very much inclined to believe it. It's CD *Stoplight*, and Harley's 'technical explanation' for the supposedly audible effect, is nonsense. I also believe in bi-wiring. I've tried it and I'm never going back. Another 'tweak' with essentialy no basis for audible difference. I also have Densen's DeMagic CD. Again, many people say its effect is bogus. I've tried it and definitely noticed a difference. The effect was most apparent only the 1st time I used it, though. After that, I've used it every couple of months and haven't noticed a change. Perhaps I haven't given my electronics enough time to get magnetically out of alignment. It's preventive maintenance, then. It's more likely sighted bias. So, what does that make me, and Audiophool or an Audiophile? No comment. For all the other things I mentioned, it is quite difficult for me to prove that they do indeed make a difference. The difference is there but is quite subtle. Now, for the Densen Demagic CD, it is very very easy to prove that it works. This is how you do it: Requirements? A pair on NON magnetically shield speakers. Expose those speakers to a strong magnetic field like your CRT based TV and I guess any high powered electric motor, like a vacuum cleaner. When I say expose, I mean to place those speakers very near these magnetically strong devices while they are on of course. Now, place the speakers right next to each other and playback any source in mono. With the speakers right next to each other, when you listen to that mono source you should get a strong sense of the image being midway between the speakers. Because the speakers have been exposed to a strong magentic field, they probably don't have a strong image, if any at all. The sound is all there but you can't localize it with your eyes closed. It seems to be everywhere and nowhere at the same time. Next step: playback the densen demagic CD at the loudest volume you can tolerate. You probably want to leave the room while its playing for its duration of 3 minutes. Now, do the mono test again. You should now have a very strong image of the sound coming from midway between the speakers. And there you have it. CD |
#17
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Ultrabit Platium Disk Treatment
On Wed, 23 Jul 2008 18:27:01 -0700, Codifus wrote
(in article ): Steven Sullivan wrote: Codifus wrote: Steven Sullivan wrote: wrote: On Jul 18, 8:42 pm, wrote: Robert Hartley, Absolute Sound, gave rave reviews to the Ultrabit Disk Treatment. Has anyone tried this? The price is outrageous for a two ounce bottle of stuff ($65) plus $8.00 shipping. It can't cost the guy more than a buck to produce it. What other disk treatments are available? What I am thinking is that if I paid over $70 for a small bottle of disk teatment, I at least would believe I heard some improvement!!!! Do a web search for "Barry Ornitz" and "CD Optical Impedance Matching Fluid" to find the origin of this substance. Note especially that it was published on April 1st. So far no luck finding these together on google groups or google web. Anyone got a link? I googled "CD Optical Impedance Matching Fluid" and found this Stereophile article; http://stereophile.com/reference/590jitter/ They tried a product called CD spotlight by Audio Prism and were surprised to find that it did make a difference. They then backed it up with a technical explanation as to why the difference was probably there. I am very much inclined to believe it. It's CD *Stoplight*, and Harley's 'technical explanation' for the supposedly audible effect, is nonsense. I also believe in bi-wiring. I've tried it and I'm never going back. Another 'tweak' with essentialy no basis for audible difference. I also have Densen's DeMagic CD. Again, many people say its effect is bogus. I've tried it and definitely noticed a difference. The effect was most apparent only the 1st time I used it, though. After that, I've used it every couple of months and haven't noticed a change. Perhaps I haven't given my electronics enough time to get magnetically out of alignment. It's preventive maintenance, then. It's more likely sighted bias. So, what does that make me, and Audiophool or an Audiophile? No comment. For all the other things I mentioned, it is quite difficult for me to prove that they do indeed make a difference. The difference is there but is quite subtle. Now, for the Densen Demagic CD, it is very very easy to prove that it works. This is how you do it: Requirements? A pair on NON magnetically shield speakers. Expose those speakers to a strong magnetic field like your CRT based TV and I guess any high powered electric motor, like a vacuum cleaner. When I say expose, I mean to place those speakers very near these magnetically strong devices while they are on of course. Now, place the speakers right next to each other and playback any source in mono. With the speakers right next to each other, when you listen to that mono source you should get a strong sense of the image being midway between the speakers. Because the speakers have been exposed to a strong magentic field, they probably don't have a strong image, if any at all. The sound is all there but you can't localize it with your eyes closed. It seems to be everywhere and nowhere at the same time. Next step: playback the densen demagic CD at the loudest volume you can tolerate. You probably want to leave the room while its playing for its duration of 3 minutes. Now, do the mono test again. You should now have a very strong image of the sound coming from midway between the speakers. And there you have it. CD Does this make sense to anyone? The whole idea of magnetically shielded speakers is that their magnetic fields don't affect the electron beam in the CRT, not the other way around. IOW, the shielded speakers protect the TV. There's nothing in the TV that would affect the speakers. Also, I cannot believe for a moment that one could get the speaker magnets close enough to a large electric motor to actually affect the field in the voice-coil gap in any way. If I'm missing something, please let me know. |
#18
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Ultrabit Platium Disk Treatment
On Jul 23, 9:27*pm, Codifus wrote:
snip Now, for the Densen Demagic CD, it is very very easy to prove that it works. This is how you do it: Requirements? A pair on NON magnetically shield speakers. Expose those speakers to a strong magnetic field like your CRT based TV and I guess any high powered electric motor, like a vacuum cleaner. When I say expose, I mean to place those speakers very near these magnetically strong devices while they are on of course. Given the very strong magnets that are found in loudspeakers, it is hard to understand why speakers would be affected by external magnetic fields from these types of sources. Now, place the speakers right next to each other and playback any source in mono. With the speakers right next to each other, when you listen to that mono source you should get a strong sense of the image being midway between the speakers. Because the speakers have been exposed to a strong magnetic field, they probably don't have a strong image, if any at all. The sound is all there but you can't localize it with your eyes closed. It seems to be everywhere and nowhere at the same time. Sounds like the manufacturer of these speakers needs to find a better source for the permanent magnets that they use. Next step: playback the densen demagic CD at the loudest volume you can tolerate. You probably want to leave the room while its playing for its duration of 3 minutes. Now, do the mono test again. You should now have a very strong image of the sound coming from midway between the speakers. And there you have it. Not really. This implies that speaker magnets can be restored by generating "magic" AC fields via the voice coil, a very remarkable discovery if true. Normally, AC fields are used to demagnetize materials that have become magnetized such as tape recorder heads. |
#19
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Ultrabit Platium Disk Treatment
"Codifus" wrote in message
Now, for the Densen Demagic CD, it is very very easy to prove that it works. This is how you do it: Requirements? A pair on NON magnetically shield speakers. Expose those speakers to a strong magnetic field like your CRT based TV and I guess any high powered electric motor, like a vacuum cleaner. When I say expose, I mean to place those speakers very near these magnetically strong devices while they are on of course. Of course? Of course not! Both speakers and electric motors do have very strong magnetic fields inside of them, but their external fields are necessarily relatively small compared to the intense magnetic fields inside. A large external magnetic field would represent a gross loss of efficiency. Because the speakers have been exposed to a strong magnetic field, they probably don't have a strong image, if any at all. The sound is all there but you can't localize it with your eyes closed. It seems to be everywhere and nowhere at the same time. This paragraph is truly amazing. In my 14 plus years on Usenet and 47 plus years as an audiophile, I've never seen so many different things naively conflated into one big hairball of myth. If you do anything to significantly diminish the internal magnetic field of a loudspeaker driver, there is a very strong effect, the speaker driver looses efficiency. One of the last things to go would be the imaging. The most common means by which a speaker's internal magnetic field is weakened is probably heating of the magnet assembly by heat lost by the driver during extended operation at high levels and high powers. Repeated application of large, short pulses can reduce the strength of the permanent magnets in a loudspeaker. The first thing to go during sustained use would probably be any ferrofluid, and the second thing to go would be the magnetic field strength. Loss of either will cause the speaker to play more softly with a given amount of power being applied to it. This is well-known to be a cumulative, irreversible effect. If a speaker's permanent magnets (which are obviously not totally permanent but can be harmed by abuse) lose some of their strength, the usual fix is to remove the voice coil and recharge the magnet assembly with a special machine that will be described a little bit more below. That's what works! Next step: playback the densen demagic CD at the loudest volume you can tolerate. You probably want to leave the room while its playing for its duration of 3 minutes. Now, do the mono test again. You should now have a very strong image of the sound coming from midway between the speakers. Now we have a pure anti-scientific myth being propounded. While AC current can demagnetize a permanent magnet, there is no means for using AC current to re-magnetize it. An AC current strong enough to demagnetize a speaker magnet would probably first burn out the voice coil. An AC current strong enough to demagnetize a speaker magnet constitutes abuse of the speaker. The myth being propounded here is that if abuse harms a loudspeaker, further abuse of the identical same kind will repair it. Unprecedented! BTW, speaker magnet assemblies are *not* magnetized by putting current through the voice coil. The magnetic assembly is "charged" by a special machine that uses large, relatively long electrical pulses. The magnetism is applied by a special jig that engages the pole pieces. The voice coil is installed once the magnetic assembly is charged. |
#20
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Ultrabit Platium Disk Treatment
"Codifus" wrote in message
I Goggled "CD Optical Impedance Matching Fluid" and found this Stereophile article; http://Stereophile.com/reference/590jitter/ They tried a product called CD spotlight by Audio Prism and were surprised to find that it did make a difference. Two words: sighted evaluations. They then backed it up with a technical explanation as to why the difference was probably there. Actually, the cited article starts out with a statement of acute reviewer bias: "The promise of "perfect sound forever," successfully foisted on an unwitting public by the Compact Disc's promoters, at first seemed to put an end to the audiophile's inexorable need to tweak a playback system's front end at the point of information retrieval. First, the binary nature (ones and zeros) of digital audio would apparently preclude variations in playback sound quality due to imperfections in the recording medium. " It is a well-known and generally-agreed upon fact that the binary nature (ones and zeros) of digital audio *does* preclude variations in playback sound quality due to imperfections in the playback of the media, in well-engineered playback equipment. By 1990 when the article was written. CD players that reliably performed at or near the theoretical limits of the CD format were widely available for less than $150. Key words: "foisted on". dictionary.reference.com/search?q=foist&r=66 Foist 1. to force upon or impose fraudulently or unjustifiably (usually fol. by on or upon): to foist inferior merchandise on a customer. So the reviewer starts out his supposedly unbiased review by saying that well-known scientific facts are actually frauds. There does seem to be a fraud at hand, but its not the well-known scientific facts. ;-) I am very much inclined to believe it. I'm very much inclined to disbelieve authors who make controversial claims like this without some pretty solid evidence to back them up. The rest of the article is full of assertions and evidence of a nature that is well-known to be totally unreliable. I also believe in bi-wiring. I've tried it and I'm never going back. Now when I see a speaker with only one pair of speaker terminals, I tend to look down on it. The absolutely minimal difference that bi-wiring provides has been proven both mathematically and by clearly demonstrated means of a variety of both electronic tests and listening tests. The test that tells the story to me best involves measuring the voltage across the speaker terminals for the same loudspeaker system, wired normally, and bi-wired. There are differences, but they are vanishingly small. Before I tried biwiring, I didn't really care. This notion some believe that bi-wiring was invented to sell more speaker cable is total bull. Actually, there is quite a bit of scientific evidence to support the conclusion that bi-wiring mainly provides a financial benefit to the people who sell it. However, the benefit is not restricted to just selling more cable. Mislead consumers will also choose speakers with added terminals that cost next to nothing to add, over speakers that are well-engineered and lack superfluous hardware. The perfect analogy is how many people also believe that the US carmakers were in cahoots with the oil companies to produce big giant gas guzzling SUVs. I live in the Detroit area, worked as an automotive engineer, and still have a ton of inside connections. The analogy between the two theories presented above is indeed perfect because both theories are bogus. The car companies needed no conspiracy with the oil companies to induce them to produce SUVs. They just wanted to sell vehicles. SUVs fit through a number of legal loopholes and allowed the car companies to sell mechanically crude truck chassis that the Asian producers were not producing, for a premium over far more sophisticated car chassis. As consumers started demanding SUVs that handled well and weren't so prone to flip over, and as the Asian producers entered the market, the US car companies were forced to produce increasingly more mechanically sophisticated and therefore more expensive chassis. But they were still following their vision and mission, which is to sell more vehicles. Well, here we are. Oil is at $140/barrel and all US carmakers are on life support while all the oil companies are enjoying the biggest profits of any company ever. Staggering could better describe their profit margin. Way OT, but what we are seeing now is probably a short-term blip. The supply of oil is over the short term relatively inflexible. Over a period of say 5 years, the oil supply can be upgraded significantly if natural forces are allowed to work themselves out. Demand for energy increased sharply as formerly-technologically impoverished Asian countries shed many of the inefficiencies of their outdated political systems. The beauty of energy-inefficient products like SUVs is that it is relatively easy to return to the use of far more energy-efficient transportation of a number of different kinds including the far more fuel-efficient passenger cars that are still in mass production, and have also been undergoing technological development. I also have Densen's DeMagic CD. Again, many people say its effect is bogus. In fact, products like this can't work. The thesis of the Harley Stereophile article above is that these media treatments reduce jitter. In 1990, there was a lot of hysteria over jitter, and frankly some of it was warranted because the high end market had embarked on an adventure involving the gratuitous use of external DACs, and like the early SUVs, many early external DACs were pretty crude and not well-engineered. Ironically, the people who stuck with CD players with internal DACs continued to enjoy the good jitter performance of even the first-generation CD players. A CD player *must* contend with relatively massive amounts of jitter to work at all acceptably. Minor eccentricities of CDs being played are a fact of life. Due to the miniscule dimensions of the pits on the CD surface, the CD player must do some pretty impressive things in order to produce any music at all. One of the things the CD player must do is constantly and rapidly adjust the location of the laser pickup so that it tracks the spiral of tiny pits which is also wobbling back and forth. The CD player must have an internal buffer and precision clock to even out the inconsistencies in the timing of data received from the laser pickup in order to work at all. I've tried it and definitely noticed a difference. Two words: sighted evaluation. The simple fact that so many people will so enthusiastically report events that physically can't possibly happen is more criticism of sighted evaluations than 1,000 ABX enthusiasts could possibly flood a newsgroup with. |
#21
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Ultrabit Platium Disk Treatment
On Thu, 24 Jul 2008 06:06:05 -0700, Arny Krueger wrote
(in article ): "Codifus" wrote in message Now, for the Densen Demagic CD, it is very very easy to prove that it works. This is how you do it: Requirements? A pair on NON magnetically shield speakers. Expose those speakers to a strong magnetic field like your CRT based TV and I guess any high powered electric motor, like a vacuum cleaner. When I say expose, I mean to place those speakers very near these magnetically strong devices while they are on of course. Of course? Of course not! Both speakers and electric motors do have very strong magnetic fields inside of them, but their external fields are necessarily relatively small compared to the intense magnetic fields inside. A large external magnetic field would represent a gross loss of efficiency. Because the speakers have been exposed to a strong magnetic field, they probably don't have a strong image, if any at all. The sound is all there but you can't localize it with your eyes closed. It seems to be everywhere and nowhere at the same time. This paragraph is truly amazing. In my 14 plus years on Usenet and 47 plus years as an audiophile, I've never seen so many different things naively conflated into one big hairball of myth. If you do anything to significantly diminish the internal magnetic field of a loudspeaker driver, there is a very strong effect, the speaker driver looses efficiency. One of the last things to go would be the imaging. The most common means by which a speaker's internal magnetic field is weakened is probably heating of the magnet assembly by heat lost by the driver during extended operation at high levels and high powers. Repeated application of large, short pulses can reduce the strength of the permanent magnets in a loudspeaker. The first thing to go during sustained use would probably be any ferrofluid, and the second thing to go would be the magnetic field strength. Loss of either will cause the speaker to play more softly with a given amount of power being applied to it. This is well-known to be a cumulative, irreversible effect. If a speaker's permanent magnets (which are obviously not totally permanent but can be harmed by abuse) lose some of their strength, the usual fix is to remove the voice coil and recharge the magnet assembly with a special machine that will be described a little bit more below. That's what works! Next step: playback the densen demagic CD at the loudest volume you can tolerate. You probably want to leave the room while its playing for its duration of 3 minutes. Now, do the mono test again. You should now have a very strong image of the sound coming from midway between the speakers. Now we have a pure anti-scientific myth being propounded. While AC current can demagnetize a permanent magnet, there is no means for using AC current to re-magnetize it. An AC current strong enough to demagnetize a speaker magnet would probably first burn out the voice coil. An AC current strong enough to demagnetize a speaker magnet constitutes abuse of the speaker. The myth being propounded here is that if abuse harms a loudspeaker, further abuse of the identical same kind will repair it. Unprecedented! BTW, speaker magnet assemblies are *not* magnetized by putting current through the voice coil. The magnetic assembly is "charged" by a special machine that uses large, relatively long electrical pulses. The magnetism is applied by a special jig that engages the pole pieces. The voice coil is installed once the magnetic assembly is charged. Speaker magnets are made of special alloys designed to be easily permeable (or magnitized). It is very difficult to demagnetize them. Higher-end speakers often use the types of super-magnets often demonstrated on TV how-to shows as being able to lift many times their own weight and two of them stuck together are almost impossible to separate. It would take some electromagnet to demagnetize those! But none of this has anything to do with the OP's preposterous assertion that "demagnetizing" a CD (which has NO ferrous materials in it) will, in any way, affect the CD's sound. Ð I've also heard this ridiculous assertion made for vinyl phonograph records. There seems to be no end to the gullibility of the rabid audiophile. |
#22
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Ultrabit Platium Disk Treatment
On Thu, 24 Jul 2008 04:25:09 -0700, jwvm wrote
(in article ): On Jul 23, 9:27*pm, Codifus wrote: snip Now, for the Densen Demagic CD, it is very very easy to prove that it works. This is how you do it: Requirements? A pair on NON magnetically shield speakers. Expose those speakers to a strong magnetic field like your CRT based TV and I guess any high powered electric motor, like a vacuum cleaner. When I say expose, I mean to place those speakers very near these magnetically strong devices while they are on of course. Given the very strong magnets that are found in loudspeakers, it is hard to understand why speakers would be affected by external magnetic fields from these types of sources. Now, place the speakers right next to each other and playback any source in mono. With the speakers right next to each other, when you listen to that mono source you should get a strong sense of the image being midway between the speakers. Because the speakers have been exposed to a strong magnetic field, they probably don't have a strong image, if any at all. The sound is all there but you can't localize it with your eyes closed. It seems to be everywhere and nowhere at the same time. Sounds like the manufacturer of these speakers needs to find a better source for the permanent magnets that they use. Next step: playback the densen demagic CD at the loudest volume you can tolerate. You probably want to leave the room while its playing for its duration of 3 minutes. Now, do the mono test again. You should now have a very strong image of the sound coming from midway between the speakers. And there you have it. Not really. This implies that speaker magnets can be restored by generating "magic" AC fields via the voice coil, a very remarkable discovery if true. Normally, AC fields are used to demagnetize materials that have become magnetized such as tape recorder heads. Tain't necessarily so (apologies to G. Gershwin). You can easily permanently magnetize a screwdriver by taking a Weller-type soldering gun and replacing the tip with about 10 turns of heavy copper wire. Insert the screwdriver shaft into the loop made by the 10 turns and squeeze the trigger on the Weller. Now move the 'driver back and forth with the field on and then let-off on the trigger and remove the screwdriver. You will find it now nicely magnetized. To de-magnetize same, turn gun on, insert screwdriver shaft, and slowly remove the screwdriver with the gun turned ON. Pull the screwdriver as far away from the coil as you can get it (both arm's length) and then turn the screwdriver (or the soldering gun) 90 degrees and with the two as far apart as practicable, turn off the soldering gun. You should now have a demagnetized screwdriver. This second method is also good for demagnetizing tape heads. Make the loops in the coil large enough to fit over the head in question, turn on the gun, place the coil over the tape head, and slowly withdraw. When the gun is at least six ft, from the head, turn it 90 degrees and release the soldering gun's trigger. This will erase the tape head's residual magnetization. Make a big coil, place it against a CRT screen on a TV and do the same procedure and you can demagnetize a color television screen and restore its purity. |
#23
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Ultrabit Platium Disk Treatment
On Jul 24, 6:47 pm, Sonnova wrote:
Speaker magnets are made of special alloys designed to be easily permeable (or magnitized). It is very difficult to demagnetize them. Uh, no. You have a lot of pseudo-magnet terms which are used contradictory to one another and inappropriately, the result is a desciption of how speaker magnets do NOT work. First, speaker pangent consists of basically TWO kinds of materials: the first is so called "soft" parts which consist primarily of low-carbon steels. They have the magnetic properties of high permeability, high saturation magnetization moderate coercivity and low remanance. They are very good at directing and concentrating magnetic force lines, but themselves caonctribute almost nothing to the stored magnetic field. The second rtype of material is called "hard". They are characterized by high-coercivity, high-remanance, moderate permeability and moderate saturation magnetization. They, because of their high remanance and coercivity, are very good at storing a magnetic "charge" or magnetizationm' but it's very hard to change the magnetization. In most speaker these days, the "hard" magnetic material is often a ceramic-based ferrite consisting os barium or strontium ferrite. One can also find materials allows such the aluminum-nickel-cobalt or AlNiCo, as well as so-called rare-earth magnet material such as samarium cobalt or neodymium born. All of these material are characterized by high remamance: they can store a large degree of magentization and high coercivity: the magnetization is devilishly hard to change and requires the impression of a magnetizing field well in excess of the desired end point magnetization. It is just as difficult to DEmagnetize them as it is to magnetize them, though under certain environmental conditions, some hard meterials in sub-optimum designs can lose energy through mechanical or thermal shock. Higher-end speakers often use the types of super- magnets often demonstrated on TV how-to shows as being able to lift many times their own weight Actually, a cheap old ferrite magnet in a reasonably well designed soft iron yoke could easily lift 100 times its own weight. two of them stuck together are almost impossible to separate. It would take some electromagnet to demagnetize those! Actually, no it's not. Simply raise its temperature to the Curie point and poof! no more magnetization. You can do that in a kitchen oven. Yes, the assertions about how the CD can fix the speaker is pretty out there, but let's not use complete technobabble to "prove" it the case. |
#24
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Ultrabit Platium Disk Treatment
"Sonnova" wrote in message
On Thu, 24 Jul 2008 04:25:09 -0700, jwvm wrote (in article ): Not really. This implies that speaker magnets can be restored by generating "magic" AC fields via the voice coil, a very remarkable discovery if true. Normally, AC fields are used to demagnetize materials that have become magnetized such as tape recorder heads. Tain't necessarily so (apologies to G. Gershwin). You can easily permanently magnetize a screwdriver by taking a Weller-type soldering gun and replacing the tip with about 10 turns of heavy copper wire. Insert the screwdriver shaft into the loop made by the 10 turns and squeeze the trigger on the Weller. Now move the 'driver back and forth with the field on and then let-off on the trigger and remove the screwdriver. You will find it now nicely magnetized. You're taking advantage of a cheat. When you pulse the soldering gun, you are creating a transient that is no doubt causing the magnetization effect. You are BTW taking advantage of a nonlinear effect related to the operation of the trigger switch. That is vastly different than playing sounds off of a CD though a stereo. To de-magnetize same, turn gun on, insert screwdriver shaft, and slowly remove the screwdriver with the gun turned ON. Pull the screwdriver as far away from the coil as you can get it (both arm's length) and then turn the screwdriver (or the soldering gun) 90 degrees and with the two as far apart as practicable, turn off the soldering gun. You should now have a demagnetized screwdriver. That would be more similar to anything you might achieve by playing a CD through a stereo, except that the Weller iron operates with far higher currents than a speaker voice coil. |
#25
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Ultrabit Platium Disk Treatment
Sonnova wrote:
On Wed, 23 Jul 2008 18:27:01 -0700, Codifus wrote (in article ): Steven Sullivan wrote: Codifus wrote: Steven Sullivan wrote: wrote: On Jul 18, 8:42 pm, wrote: Robert Hartley, Absolute Sound, gave rave reviews to the Ultrabit Disk Treatment. Has anyone tried this? The price is outrageous for a two ounce bottle of stuff ($65) plus $8.00 shipping. It can't cost the guy more than a buck to produce it. What other disk treatments are available? What I am thinking is that if I paid over $70 for a small bottle of disk teatment, I at least would believe I heard some improvement!!!! Do a web search for "Barry Ornitz" and "CD Optical Impedance Matching Fluid" to find the origin of this substance. Note especially that it was published on April 1st. So far no luck finding these together on google groups or google web. Anyone got a link? I googled "CD Optical Impedance Matching Fluid" and found this Stereophile article; http://stereophile.com/reference/590jitter/ They tried a product called CD spotlight by Audio Prism and were surprised to find that it did make a difference. They then backed it up with a technical explanation as to why the difference was probably there. I am very much inclined to believe it. It's CD *Stoplight*, and Harley's 'technical explanation' for the supposedly audible effect, is nonsense. I also believe in bi-wiring. I've tried it and I'm never going back. Another 'tweak' with essentialy no basis for audible difference. I also have Densen's DeMagic CD. Again, many people say its effect is bogus. I've tried it and definitely noticed a difference. The effect was most apparent only the 1st time I used it, though. After that, I've used it every couple of months and haven't noticed a change. Perhaps I haven't given my electronics enough time to get magnetically out of alignment. It's preventive maintenance, then. It's more likely sighted bias. So, what does that make me, and Audiophool or an Audiophile? No comment. For all the other things I mentioned, it is quite difficult for me to prove that they do indeed make a difference. The difference is there but is quite subtle. Now, for the Densen Demagic CD, it is very very easy to prove that it works. This is how you do it: Requirements? A pair on NON magnetically shield speakers. Expose those speakers to a strong magnetic field like your CRT based TV and I guess any high powered electric motor, like a vacuum cleaner. When I say expose, I mean to place those speakers very near these magnetically strong devices while they are on of course. Now, place the speakers right next to each other and playback any source in mono. With the speakers right next to each other, when you listen to that mono source you should get a strong sense of the image being midway between the speakers. Because the speakers have been exposed to a strong magentic field, they probably don't have a strong image, if any at all. The sound is all there but you can't localize it with your eyes closed. It seems to be everywhere and nowhere at the same time. Next step: playback the densen demagic CD at the loudest volume you can tolerate. You probably want to leave the room while its playing for its duration of 3 minutes. Now, do the mono test again. You should now have a very strong image of the sound coming from midway between the speakers. And there you have it. CD Does this make sense to anyone? The whole idea of magnetically shielded speakers is that their magnetic fields don't affect the electron beam in the CRT, not the other way around. IOW, the shielded speakers protect the TV. There's nothing in the TV that would affect the speakers. Also, I cannot believe for a moment that one could get the speaker magnets close enough to a large electric motor to actually affect the field in the voice-coil gap in any way. If I'm missing something, please let me know. By the way, I specified initially in the experiment that NON magnetically shielded speakers should be used, speakers that are NOT magnetically shielded. Any old pair of speakers manufactured before, say, the 1990s should fit the bill. Also, it doesn't have to only be that type of speaker. Any pair of speakers whose imaging (that mono test mentioned before will verify) has gone down the tubes should benefit from The Densen CD. I find it quite curious that most everyone who has replied has dismissed my experiment by rattling off theories that would make a great thesis, but not one person actually willing to try and prove me wrong on this very very easy experiment. Interesting. CD |
#26
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Ultrabit Platium Disk Treatment
Steven Sullivan wrote:
Codifus wrote: I also have Densen's DeMagic CD. Again, many people say its effect is bogus. I've tried it and definitely noticed a difference. The effect was most apparent only the 1st time I used it, though. After that, I've used it every couple of months and haven't noticed a change. Perhaps I haven't given my electronics enough time to get magnetically out of alignment. It's preventive maintenance, then. It's more likely sighted bias. How does sighted bias explain that I noticed the effect the 1st time but not any other time? All those times I played the Densen CD my sight was good and the Densen CD looked the same That's a rather quick and hasty dismissal, don't ya think? CD |
#27
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Ultrabit Platium Disk Treatment
On Jul 25, 8:19 am, Codifus wrote:
By the way, I specified initially in the experiment that NON magnetically shielded speakers should be used, speakers that are NOT magnetically shielded. Any old pair of speakers manufactured before, say, the 1990s should fit the bill. Do you know, in fact, what the difference is, how and WHY? Also, it doesn't have to only be that type of speaker. Hold it a second, you're contradicting yourself. First you said: "NON magnetically shielded speakers should be used" Then you say: "it doesn't have to only be that type of speaker." Which is it? Any pair of speakers whose imaging (that mono test mentioned before will verify) has gone down the tubes should benefit from The Densen CD. Whuy? I find it quite curious that most everyone who has replied has dismissed my experiment by rattling off theories Sir, having, in fact, been professionally involved in the design and measurement of loudspeakers for over 30 years, let me assure you that I don't "rattle off theories." And, precisely what do you think a "theory" is? Are you suggesting that Newton's theory of gravity is just some old piece of guesswork he rattled off while staying in the countryside. Is quantum theory just one of a bunch of guesses? that would make a great thesis, No, it actually makes for great engineering and superb predictability and verification of actual physical manifestations and phenomenon. but not one person actually willing to try and prove me wrong on this very very easy experiment. Because, perhaps, some of us HAVE done just this type of experiment and found the results VERY different. Because, perhaps, your own data is self contradictory. Because, perhaps, both you and the manufacturer are make quite extraordinary claims, and the burden lies on those making such extraordinary claims to prove the phenomenon exists as claimed, not on the rest of the world to prove that it doesn't. Becasue,. perhaps, some of us (like, well, ME for example), have a very large base of both knowledge and experience in the very specific domain you're talking about to know what they're talking about. Because, perhaps, we've seen this type of claim time and time again and when each of them has been subject to any sort of actual verification, they have, ALL of them, come up wanting. Interesting. Actually, not. |
#28
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Ultrabit Platium Disk Treatment
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#29
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Ultrabit Platium Disk Treatment
On Jul 24, 9:06 am, "Arny Krueger" wrote:
If a speaker's permanent magnets (which are obviously not totally permanent but can be harmed by abuse) lose some of their strength, the usual fix is to remove the voice coil and recharge the magnet assembly with a special machine that will be described a little bit more below. That's what works! ... BTW, speaker magnet assemblies are *not* magnetized by putting current through the voice coil. The magnetic assembly is "charged" by a special machine that uses large, relatively long electrical pulses. The magnetism is applied by a special jig that engages the pole pieces. The voice coil is installed once the magnetic assembly is charged. Actually, this is not the case. For a varuety of reasons, the magnetization is almost always the very LAST step in the manufacturing of a driver, performed AFTER the driver components, including the voice coil and dust caps have been assembled. Magnetizers are typically huge affairs that are capable of immersing the entire assmebled driver in the magnetizing field, and, over a very short period of time, immerse the entire magnet assembly in a sufficiently strong field to overcome the magnets coercive force. There's no need to "engage the pole piece" at all. Doing it that way actually substantially reduces the field density that can be imparted on the magnetic field itself. The role of the pole pieces is to concentrate the magnetic field of the lower permeability hard magnet material, which has a much larger cross- sectional area. The pole piece run at or near saturation when the magnet itself is fully charge, but to charge the magnet requires a much stronger field than you can impart through the pole pieces. For example, the saturation of the gap might be 12000 gauss, but the magnet itself might be running at a mere 1000 gauss when full charge, and the fact that the total area of the magnet is 12=15 times that of the gap allows the softw iron near the gap to concentrate that field. But you can't stiff any more than 12000 gauss through the gap, resulting in only 1000 gauss through the magnetic, far too little to magnetize it. Instead, you immerse the ENTIRE structure in, say, a 10000 gauss field momentarilly. Yeah, the gap saturates, but you still have the 10000 gauss field permeating the hard magnet parts and they are appropriately magnetized. Taking that one step further, it becomes clearer why it's not plausible to demagnitize a speaker through the voice coil. Assuming the voice coil will thermally withstand the current necessary,while you might be able to generate any arbitrarily high field in the gap, the pole piece (especially the outer diameter of the gap) STILL only will reach its saturation magnetization (12000 Gauss or so for soft iron). That amount of flux density in that small a gap translates to a much smaller flux density when distributed over the much larger cross sectional area of the magnet, and you're nowhere near the kinds of flux density needed to change the magnetization. Take a practical example: an 8" woofer with a 1.5" voice coil in a magnet assembly whose front plate is a typical 0.318" thick, using a ceramic magnet ring with an ID of 2" and an OD of 5". The cross- sectional area of the front plate at the gap (the narrowest point of the circuit and thus the limiting point) has an area of about 9.5 cm^2. The magnet itself has a cross sectional area of some 110 cm^2. Assuming NO losses, with the gap at saturation at 12000 gauss, the magnet itself is seeing a flux density of 12000 * 9.5/110 or about 1036 gauss, nowhere near enough to reverse its magnetization. All this goes directly to the showing the technical assertions implicit in the other posters claims of the CD are unsupportable on any physical grounds. |
#30
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Ultrabit Platium Disk Treatment
On Jul 25, 8:19 am, Codifus wrote:
Steven Sullivan wrote: Codifus wrote: Perhaps I haven't given my electronics enough time to get magnetically out of alignment. It's preventive maintenance, then. It's more likely sighted bias. How does sighted bias explain that I noticed the effect the 1st time but not any other time? All those times I played the Densen CD my sight was good and the Densen CD looked the same That's a rather quick and hasty dismissal, don't ya think? No, it's not. You made a series of rather extraordinary claims. Claims which have some serious contraidctions to the known macro and microscopic properties of conductors and magnetic materials determined under conditions of FAR greater sensitivity than you'll EVER encounter in audio. It's only a "rather quick and hasty dismissal" if you're under the assumption that all technical opinions are created equal. SOrry to vreak your illusion, but they are not. The notion that some schmoe who has a website has come up with something that is contrary to what solid state physicists have understood in great detail for many many decades seriously stretches credibility beyond Netownian limits. To date, can you guess how many of these rather extraordinary clims of discovery in the high-end audio world have, in fact, lead to revisions of our knowledge of conduction physics, magnetica, audio and such? Well, the answer is, exactly ZERO. If the writing on that web site is indicative of that person's knowledge of physics, he is beyond clueless. The only other choice is that he's a fraud. The claims made by these sorts of people are of sufficiently earth-shattering impact in their implications that, among other things, they are of Nobel-prize stature. And how many audio manufacturers do YOU know of having had lunch recently with the King of Sweden. NO, it's NOT up to us to do anything BUT dismiss extraordinary claims. It';s up to those MAKING the claim to substantiate them with something other than "it worked for me." If it worked for you, fine, be happy with and let it go at that. But as soon as you put the claim out in the public space, the burden is YOURS to support it. You want proof that it works? Try the following experiment: Find two pairs of the same speakers that both suffer, to equal degrees, the problem you claim. Allow someone to take ONE pair: you don't know which, and apply or NOT apply the Densen CD treatment to it, completely out of your site. Afterwards, your job is very simple: all you nkow is that one of the two pairs MAY have had the treatment applied. BY LISTENING ALONE, tell us which one it is. Do that reliably in a number of cases, and then, maybe, it gets interesting. Otherwise, yawn. But if it works for you, why do you even care what other people think, and thus why even bother engaging in the discussion, unles you DO want to face a skeptical audience? |
#31
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Ultrabit Platium Disk Treatment
"Codifus" wrote in message
Steven Sullivan wrote: Codifus wrote: I also have Densen's DeMagic CD. Again, many people say its effect is bogus. I've tried it and definitely noticed a difference. The effect was most apparent only the 1st time I used it, though. After that, I've used it every couple of months and haven't noticed a change. Perhaps I haven't given my electronics enough time to get magnetically out of alignment. It's preventive maintenance, then. It's more likely sighted bias. Or more generally, criteria biasing. http://www.lee.edu/library/uc_tutorial/mod7c.asp How does sighted bias explain that I noticed the effect the 1st time but not any other time? We didn't mention cumulative or initial effects, we said sighted effects. Your answer relates to cumulative or initial effects. All those times I played the Densen CD my sight was good and the Densen CD looked the same But you were fully aware of the details of what you were listening to. That's a rather quick and hasty dismissal, don't ya think? If a person has any illusions about their own lack of bias, some practical experience with bias-controlled listening tests will fix most people up quite quickly. As the article I cited above says: "It is important to keep in mind that there is bias everywhere." |
#32
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Ultrabit Platium Disk Treatment
On Fri, 25 Jul 2008 05:19:42 -0700, Codifus wrote
(in article ): Sonnova wrote: On Wed, 23 Jul 2008 18:27:01 -0700, Codifus wrote (in article ): Steven Sullivan wrote: Codifus wrote: Steven Sullivan wrote: wrote: On Jul 18, 8:42 pm, wrote: Robert Hartley, Absolute Sound, gave rave reviews to the Ultrabit Disk Treatment. Has anyone tried this? The price is outrageous for a two ounce bottle of stuff ($65) plus $8.00 shipping. It can't cost the guy more than a buck to produce it. What other disk treatments are available? What I am thinking is that if I paid over $70 for a small bottle of disk teatment, I at least would believe I heard some improvement!!!! Do a web search for "Barry Ornitz" and "CD Optical Impedance Matching Fluid" to find the origin of this substance. Note especially that it was published on April 1st. So far no luck finding these together on google groups or google web. Anyone got a link? I googled "CD Optical Impedance Matching Fluid" and found this Stereophile article; http://stereophile.com/reference/590jitter/ They tried a product called CD spotlight by Audio Prism and were surprised to find that it did make a difference. They then backed it up with a technical explanation as to why the difference was probably there. I am very much inclined to believe it. It's CD *Stoplight*, and Harley's 'technical explanation' for the supposedly audible effect, is nonsense. I also believe in bi-wiring. I've tried it and I'm never going back. Another 'tweak' with essentialy no basis for audible difference. I also have Densen's DeMagic CD. Again, many people say its effect is bogus. I've tried it and definitely noticed a difference. The effect was most apparent only the 1st time I used it, though. After that, I've used it every couple of months and haven't noticed a change. Perhaps I haven't given my electronics enough time to get magnetically out of alignment. It's preventive maintenance, then. It's more likely sighted bias. So, what does that make me, and Audiophool or an Audiophile? No comment. For all the other things I mentioned, it is quite difficult for me to prove that they do indeed make a difference. The difference is there but is quite subtle. Now, for the Densen Demagic CD, it is very very easy to prove that it works. This is how you do it: Requirements? A pair on NON magnetically shield speakers. Expose those speakers to a strong magnetic field like your CRT based TV and I guess any high powered electric motor, like a vacuum cleaner. When I say expose, I mean to place those speakers very near these magnetically strong devices while they are on of course. Now, place the speakers right next to each other and playback any source in mono. With the speakers right next to each other, when you listen to that mono source you should get a strong sense of the image being midway between the speakers. Because the speakers have been exposed to a strong magentic field, they probably don't have a strong image, if any at all. The sound is all there but you can't localize it with your eyes closed. It seems to be everywhere and nowhere at the same time. Next step: playback the densen demagic CD at the loudest volume you can tolerate. You probably want to leave the room while its playing for its duration of 3 minutes. Now, do the mono test again. You should now have a very strong image of the sound coming from midway between the speakers. And there you have it. CD Does this make sense to anyone? The whole idea of magnetically shielded speakers is that their magnetic fields don't affect the electron beam in the CRT, not the other way around. IOW, the shielded speakers protect the TV. There's nothing in the TV that would affect the speakers. Also, I cannot believe for a moment that one could get the speaker magnets close enough to a large electric motor to actually affect the field in the voice-coil gap in any way. If I'm missing something, please let me know. By the way, I specified initially in the experiment that NON magnetically shielded speakers should be used, speakers that are NOT magnetically shielded. Any old pair of speakers manufactured before, say, the 1990s should fit the bill. Also, it doesn't have to only be that type of speaker. Any pair of speakers whose imaging (that mono test mentioned before will verify) has gone down the tubes should benefit from The Densen CD. I find it quite curious that most everyone who has replied has dismissed my experiment by rattling off theories that would make a great thesis, but not one person actually willing to try and prove me wrong on this very very easy experiment. Interesting. CD It's not necessary. You can't supply a strong enough magnetic field using any home appliance to in any way affect the magnetic field in a speaker - especially so if the speaker in question is in its enclosure. Back in reel-to-reel tape days, I kept a pro-quality 1/2" tape (bought it an electronics flea market) degausser on top of one of my monitor speakers and used to degauss 10.5" reels of audio tape with it regularly for years. Even that strong of a magnetic field didn't change the performance of that speaker one iota. Taking people to task for not trying your challenge is like a flat-earther complaining that people don't take his assertions seriously and won't try his experiments which show conclusively that the world is flat. You see, it isn't. |
#33
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Ultrabit Platium Disk Treatment
On Fri, 25 Jul 2008 05:19:30 -0700, Arny Krueger wrote
(in article ): "Sonnova" wrote in message On Thu, 24 Jul 2008 04:25:09 -0700, jwvm wrote (in article ): Not really. This implies that speaker magnets can be restored by generating "magic" AC fields via the voice coil, a very remarkable discovery if true. Normally, AC fields are used to demagnetize materials that have become magnetized such as tape recorder heads. Tain't necessarily so (apologies to G. Gershwin). You can easily permanently magnetize a screwdriver by taking a Weller-type soldering gun and replacing the tip with about 10 turns of heavy copper wire. Insert the screwdriver shaft into the loop made by the 10 turns and squeeze the trigger on the Weller. Now move the 'driver back and forth with the field on and then let-off on the trigger and remove the screwdriver. You will find it now nicely magnetized. You're taking advantage of a cheat. When you pulse the soldering gun, you are creating a transient that is no doubt causing the magnetization effect. You are BTW taking advantage of a nonlinear effect related to the operation of the trigger switch. That is vastly different than playing sounds off of a CD though a stereo. Actually, they have absolutely nothing to do with each other. There is nothing magnetic in a stamped, mass produced CD that would have the slightest affect on it. I was merely showing that one can magnetize and demagnetize ferric objects using an AC signal , CDs aren't ferrous (except maybe recordable ones which, if I understand correctly, do use a magnetic field to effect the burning). To de-magnetize same, turn gun on, insert screwdriver shaft, and slowly remove the screwdriver with the gun turned ON. Pull the screwdriver as far away from the coil as you can get it (both arm's length) and then turn the screwdriver (or the soldering gun) 90 degrees and with the two as far apart as practicable, turn off the soldering gun. You should now have a demagnetized screwdriver. That would be more similar to anything you might achieve by playing a CD through a stereo, except that the Weller iron operates with far higher currents than a speaker voice coil. They have nothing in common. |
#34
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Ultrabit Platium Disk Treatment
On Fri, 25 Jul 2008 05:19:54 -0700, Codifus wrote
(in article ): Steven Sullivan wrote: Codifus wrote: I also have Densen's DeMagic CD. Again, many people say its effect is bogus. I've tried it and definitely noticed a difference. The effect was most apparent only the 1st time I used it, though. After that, I've used it every couple of months and haven't noticed a change. Perhaps I haven't given my electronics enough time to get magnetically out of alignment. It's preventive maintenance, then. It's more likely sighted bias. How does sighted bias explain that I noticed the effect the 1st time but not any other time? All those times I played the Densen CD my sight was good and the Densen CD looked the same That's a rather quick and hasty dismissal, don't ya think? CD Please explain the theory on how a commercially stamped CD (which has no magnetic properties) can be affected by demagnetizing? Most likely, you hear a difference because you WANT TO, having spent the money on the device. subsequent listenings do not elicit the same response as the first because you have already heard the difference that you wanted to hear the first time and that your expectations are that once treated, the disc shouldn't change. Therefore it doesn't. |
#36
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Ultrabit Platium Disk Treatment
Codifus wrote:
Steven Sullivan wrote: Codifus wrote: I also have Densen's DeMagic CD. Again, many people say its effect is bogus. I've tried it and definitely noticed a difference. The effect was most apparent only the 1st time I used it, though. After that, I've used it every couple of months and haven't noticed a change. Perhaps I haven't given my electronics enough time to get magnetically out of alignment. It's preventive maintenance, then. It's more likely sighted bias. How does sighted bias explain that I noticed the effect the 1st time but not any other time? All those times I played the Densen CD my sight was good and the Densen CD looked the same That's a rather quick and hasty dismissal, don't ya think? No, because it is always something that must be ruled out in these sorts of anecdotes, if they are to even begin approaching the status of 'observation of a real phenomonen' -- -S A wise man, therefore, proportions his belief to the evidence. -- David Hume, "On Miracles" (1748) |
#37
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Ultrabit Platium Disk Treatment
Sonnova wrote:
On Fri, 25 Jul 2008 05:19:54 -0700, Codifus wrote (in article ): Steven Sullivan wrote: Codifus wrote: I also have Densen's DeMagic CD. Again, many people say its effect is bogus. I've tried it and definitely noticed a difference. The effect was most apparent only the 1st time I used it, though. After that, I've used it every couple of months and haven't noticed a change. Perhaps I haven't given my electronics enough time to get magnetically out of alignment. It's preventive maintenance, then. It's more likely sighted bias. How does sighted bias explain that I noticed the effect the 1st time but not any other time? All those times I played the Densen CD my sight was good and the Densen CD looked the same That's a rather quick and hasty dismissal, don't ya think? CD Please explain the theory on how a commercially stamped CD (which has no magnetic properties) can be affected by demagnetizing? Most likely, you hear a difference because you WANT TO, having spent the money on the device. subsequent listenings do not elicit the same response as the first because you have already heard the difference that you wanted to hear the first time and that your expectations are that once treated, the disc shouldn't change. Therefore it doesn't. OK. Basic law of physics: every electrical field has an associated magnetic field and vice versa. One does not exist without the other. This is the exact principle behind transformers, speakers, you name it. Electromagnetism. If you push an electric current through a speaker, it moves. If you move the speaker cone with your hand, guess what? An electrical current will be generated that you can measure at the speaker terminals. I'm more than willing to prove it to anyone. This test is so easy its ridiculous. I will not use my system or CD. I can already see that if anything of mine were used in the test, the conclusion would be that I rigged it somehow. Here's the deal: Any skeptical taker who has the respect of Dick Pierce, Arny Kruger, Sonnova, or Steve Sullivan. I chose you 4 because you have always been so adamant about your beliefs based on facts. Nothing wrong with that at all. It is a completely logical way to think. I'm just trying to open some minds. Now, that taker should have a pair of non-magnetically shielded speakers. I suggest these type of speakers because they are easily set out of whack by moving them around near a strong magnetic field like a CRT based TV. Speakers that fail the mono test can also be used, but things get murky and subjective. Who says that the speakers are not phase coherent, you me? Who to believe? The user should buy the Densen CD for $40. Again, I won't use mine because it must be rigged somehowI will then come and visit and we can go through the test together. Possible outcomes of the test: You don't hear a change, I do. I'll give your $40 and we'll be done. You and I both hear the change. Proof positive. Actually, If I'm right, I want Mr. Kruger, Mr. Pierce, Sonnova and Steve Sullivan, to each send me $15. I take paypal Yes, I'm getting a little more back than I put in, but you guys give me grief It's just to cover expenses. CD |
#38
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Ultrabit Platium Disk Treatment
On Fri, 25 Jul 2008 16:10:10 -0700, Codifus wrote
(in article ): Sonnova wrote: On Fri, 25 Jul 2008 05:19:54 -0700, Codifus wrote (in article ): Steven Sullivan wrote: Codifus wrote: I also have Densen's DeMagic CD. Again, many people say its effect is bogus. I've tried it and definitely noticed a difference. The effect was most apparent only the 1st time I used it, though. After that, I've used it every couple of months and haven't noticed a change. Perhaps I haven't given my electronics enough time to get magnetically out of alignment. It's preventive maintenance, then. It's more likely sighted bias. How does sighted bias explain that I noticed the effect the 1st time but not any other time? All those times I played the Densen CD my sight was good and the Densen CD looked the same That's a rather quick and hasty dismissal, don't ya think? CD Please explain the theory on how a commercially stamped CD (which has no magnetic properties) can be affected by demagnetizing? Most likely, you hear a difference because you WANT TO, having spent the money on the device. subsequent listenings do not elicit the same response as the first because you have already heard the difference that you wanted to hear the first time and that your expectations are that once treated, the disc shouldn't change. Therefore it doesn't. OK. Basic law of physics: every electrical field has an associated magnetic field and vice versa. One does not exist without the other. This is the exact principle behind transformers, speakers, you name it. Electromagnetism. But a CD doesn't have an "electrical field" associated with it. It's just a piece of plastic with some aluminum sputtered onto it. If you push an electric current through a speaker, it moves. If you move the speaker cone with your hand, guess what? An electrical current will be generated that you can measure at the speaker terminals. I'm more than willing to prove it to anyone. This test is so easy its ridiculous. I will not use my system or CD. I can already see that if anything of mine were used in the test, the conclusion would be that I rigged it somehow. nobody is arguing what you say about speakers, above. It's fundamental electrical theory. Where I am skeptical, is what you say about about being able to affect the magnetism of a permanent magnet speaker by its proximity to household magnetic fields. My own experience and what little I know about permanent magnets says that this is wrong. Secondly, I do not believe that degaussing a CD will have any more effect on it than degaussing a vinyl record would or could affect it * and for the same reason. There is no magnetically permeable materials in either. You'd have a better chance degaussing your brain, at least blood has iron in it! Here's the deal: Any skeptical taker who has the respect of Dick Pierce, Arny Kruger, Sonnova, or Steve Sullivan. I chose you 4 because you have always been so adamant about your beliefs based on facts. Nothing wrong with that at all. It is a completely logical way to think. I'm just trying to open some minds. Now, that taker should have a pair of non-magnetically shielded speakers. I suggest these type of speakers because they are easily set out of whack by moving them around near a strong magnetic field like a CRT based TV. first of all, as I said before, their are no strong magnetic fields associated with a CRT TV. Yes there is a magnetic coil called a yoke around the neck of the CRT, but it's field is concentrated to the area inside the neck and is used to bend the electron beam shooting down the neck at the video raster rate. More than a few inches from that coil yields no discernible field. I suspect that you are confused because magnetically shielded speakers are often associated with video. This is not because a magnetic field from the CRT might interfere with the speaker, but rather because the speaker's magnetic field can affect the CRT. Often when one puts large speakers with heavy magnets next to a TV, one gets a rainbow of colors not associated with the picture near the edges of the screen closest to the speakers. By shielding the speakers' magnetic field, the chances that it can affect the CRT's convergence and purity is reduced. Speakers that fail the mono test can also be used, but things get murky and subjective. Who says that the speakers are not phase coherent, you me? Who to believe? Speaker phase coherence (or time alignment), ala E.H. Long is something else. |
#39
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Ultrabit Platium Disk Treatment
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#40
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Ultrabit Platium Disk Treatment
Sonnova wrote:
On Fri, 25 Jul 2008 16:10:10 -0700, Codifus wrote (in article ): Sonnova wrote: On Fri, 25 Jul 2008 05:19:54 -0700, Codifus wrote (in article ): Steven Sullivan wrote: Codifus wrote: I also have Densen's DeMagic CD. Again, many people say its effect is bogus. I've tried it and definitely noticed a difference. The effect was most apparent only the 1st time I used it, though. After that, I've used it every couple of months and haven't noticed a change. Perhaps I haven't given my electronics enough time to get magnetically out of alignment. It's preventive maintenance, then. It's more likely sighted bias. How does sighted bias explain that I noticed the effect the 1st time but not any other time? All those times I played the Densen CD my sight was good and the Densen CD looked the same That's a rather quick and hasty dismissal, don't ya think? CD Please explain the theory on how a commercially stamped CD (which has no magnetic properties) can be affected by demagnetizing? Most likely, you hear a difference because you WANT TO, having spent the money on the device. subsequent listenings do not elicit the same response as the first because you have already heard the difference that you wanted to hear the first time and that your expectations are that once treated, the disc shouldn't change. Therefore it doesn't. OK. Basic law of physics: every electrical field has an associated magnetic field and vice versa. One does not exist without the other. This is the exact principle behind transformers, speakers, you name it. Electromagnetism. But a CD doesn't have an "electrical field" associated with it. It's just a piece of plastic with some aluminum sputtered onto it. If you push an electric current through a speaker, it moves. If you move the speaker cone with your hand, guess what? An electrical current will be generated that you can measure at the speaker terminals. I'm more than willing to prove it to anyone. This test is so easy its ridiculous. I will not use my system or CD. I can already see that if anything of mine were used in the test, the conclusion would be that I rigged it somehow. nobody is arguing what you say about speakers, above. It's fundamental electrical theory. Where I am skeptical, is what you say about about being able to affect the magnetism of a permanent magnet speaker by its proximity to household magnetic fields. My own experience and what little I know about permanent magnets says that this is wrong. Secondly, I do not believe that degaussing a CD will have any more effect on it than degaussing a vinyl record would or could affect it * and for the same reason. There is no magnetically permeable materials in either. You'd have a better chance degaussing your brain, at least blood has iron in it! Here's the deal: Any skeptical taker who has the respect of Dick Pierce, Arny Kruger, Sonnova, or Steve Sullivan. I chose you 4 because you have always been so adamant about your beliefs based on facts. Nothing wrong with that at all. It is a completely logical way to think. I'm just trying to open some minds. Now, that taker should have a pair of non-magnetically shielded speakers. I suggest these type of speakers because they are easily set out of whack by moving them around near a strong magnetic field like a CRT based TV. first of all, as I said before, their are no strong magnetic fields associated with a CRT TV. Yes there is a magnetic coil called a yoke around the neck of the CRT, but it's field is concentrated to the area inside the neck and is used to bend the electron beam shooting down the neck at the video raster rate. More than a few inches from that coil yields no discernible field. I suspect that you are confused because magnetically shielded speakers are often associated with video. This is not because a magnetic field from the CRT might interfere with the speaker, but rather because the speaker's magnetic field can affect the CRT. Yes, I completely understand. When you move speakers past the TV, this red and blue appears across the screen. The effect of the speaker on the TV is much more noticeable than any effect that may be on the speaker. But there is an effect. Often when one puts large speakers with heavy magnets next to a TV, one gets a rainbow of colors not associated with the picture near the edges of the screen closest to the speakers. By shielding the speakers' magnetic field, the chances that it can affect the CRT's convergence and purity is reduced. Speakers that fail the mono test can also be used, but things get murky and subjective. Who says that the speakers are not phase coherent, you me? Who to believe? Speaker phase coherence (or time alignment), ala E.H. Long is something else. I think you're missing the point. The CD is not being degaussed. The CD is playing a tone. That tone manifests itself as an electrical signal that goes through your entire audio system. That electrical signal in turn generates a magnetic field. The properties of that generated magnetic field are such that it neutralizes any static magnetism that may have developed in the system. You know, just as Arny Kruger mentioned deguassing old real to reel tapes with a degausser and slowly moving away, this demagic CD is doing the exact same thing. Think of the the tone as analogous to the degausser's magnetic field. Now, as you slowly move away from the tape heads the Demagic tone slowly fades away. That's all it is. CD |
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