[Arny Krueger]

"Harry Lavo" wrote in message


Funny, most professional musicians early in their careers
are happy to have somebody with some experience and
decent equipment record them. And they can usually find
a decent sounding place.

Other than the decent sounding space, we've got some of those resources in
place already.

Perhaps you need to temper your "snark" and start making
nice to some quality musicians.

What you can't grasp Harry is the fact that people like you work hard to get
a certain reaction, and your efforts in that regard with me have and will
pay off.

[Arny Krueger]

"John Atkinson" wrote in
message

On Jan 20, 8:06 am, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:
"John Atkinson" wrote in

[Nor] professional recording engineer, putting to one
side your "in this case..." Given that your work
recording the church choir for which you also do the
live sound was the proof you offered on r.a.p. for you
being a "professional,"

Curious.

Not at all. My statement was based on your own words as
posted on r.a.p.

Really? When was that?

No doubt a questionable interpretation, such as the
others we've seen from you lately, John.

"We"?

Oh yes. Of course you probably stay away from places where you aren't fawned
over.

Mr. Krueger, it appears that you have indeed admitted
that you are not a professional engineer.

I am not a professional engineer...

Yet in another thread, you are claiming that my making
the same statement about your lack of status as a
"professional" is incorrect.

Not the same statement. Of course the difference is beyond your capability
to understand.

Are there _2_ Arny Kruegers
posting here, with opposed views? Is that why Mr/ Krueger
uses the first- person plural?

because those words have legal meaning in the State of
Michigan, which I would be a fool to pretend to be.

Yet the Google record is clear, Mr. Krueger, that until
other recording engineers like Iain Churches noticed and
complained, you were indeed "pretending" to be a
"professional" recording engineer.

Well that's another example of your ignorance John. Iain Churches has said
that he is a producer and most specifically not a recording engineer. It's
possible for some people to be both a producer and an engineer, but he lacks
the technical chops to be an engineer.

Iain has made numerous false claims in the past, and had embarked on his
vendetta against me long before he started going off on this recording
engineer thing. John, Iain has claimed in the recent past that a person
with your skill set and accomplishments can't exist. He seems to be back
pedaling right now.

Thank you at long last
for owning up to the truth: that you are a hobbyist.

Sue me for having both hobbies and also doing professional work in a number
of areas.

And as I have said, there is nothing wrong with that.

I think it was true before you said it John, but I could be wrong about
that!

[John Atkinson[_2_]]

On Jan 20, 1:17*pm, "Arny Krueger" wrote:
"Harry Lavo" wrote in message

Funny, most professional musicians early in their careers
are happy to have somebody with some experience and
decent equipment record them. *And they can usually find
a decent sounding place.

Other than the decent sounding space, we've got some of
those resources in place already.

"We"? Up to now you have been complaining that your recordings
are not of good enough quality to be shared with others, Mr.
Krueger, because, among many other reasons, you are just
one person and cannot be expected to have the same resources,
equipment, and access to halls and performers. But now it's
"we." So who else helps you make recordings, other than
the musicians and hall proprietors?

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

[John Atkinson[_2_]]

On Jan 20, 1:23*pm, "Arny Krueger" wrote:
"John Atkinson" wrote in

On Jan 20, 8:06 am, "Arny Krueger" wrote:
"John Atkinson" wrote in

[Nor] professional recording engineer, putting to one
side your "in this case..." Given that your work
recording the church choir for which you also do the
live sound was the proof you offered on r.a.p. for you
being a "professional,"

Curious.

Not at all. My statement was based on your own words as
posted *on r.a.p.

Really? When was that?

Initially in 2005. First on rec.audio.pro and more
recently on r.a.o. See, for example, message

where you asked:

Given that people occasionally pay me for some
of my audio efforts, can't I squeek by as a professional?
When they have to hire someone to do my job at church,
its a $150 gig for him. Small pototoes in the larger view,
but isn't creating value at the rate of about $8K a year
worth some kind of standing?

Small "pototoes" that kind of income may be may be,
Mr. Krueger, but as you actually work for free, it still
doesn't define you as a "professional" recording engineer
as you subsequently argued.

No doubt a questionable interpretation, such as the
others we've seen from you lately, John.

"We"?

Oh yes. Of course you probably stay away from places
where you aren't fawned over.

Not at all, as you well know, Mr. Krueger, having appeared
on-stage with me.

BTW, my experience has been that those who habiutally use
the first-person plural and therefore claim to be speaking on
behalf of unnamed others, are really just revealing their own
insecurities.

Thank you at long last for owning up to the truth: that you
are a hobbyist.

Sue me for having both hobbies and also doing professional
work in a number of areas.

But, contrary to your public claims in the past, and as you now
admit, Mr. Krueger, _not_ as a "professional" recording engineer.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

[Arny Krueger]

"John Atkinson" wrote in
message

On Jan 20, 1:17 pm, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:
"Harry Lavo" wrote in message

Funny, most professional musicians early in their
careers are happy to have somebody with some experience
and decent equipment record them. And they can usually
find a decent sounding place.

Other than the decent sounding space, we've got some of
those resources in place already.

"We"? Up to now you have been complaining that your
recordings are not of good enough quality to be shared
with others, Mr. Krueger, because, among many other
reasons, you are just
one person and cannot be expected to have the same
resources, equipment, and access to halls and performers.

Not at all. As usual John, you're it all up. The problem is not that I'm
just one person because after all you're just one person and you have proven
that you have access to all that. No the difference is that you are John
Atkinson, editor of what may be the largest high end ragazine in the US with
some of its resources behind you which narrow your focus to audio, and I'm
Arny Krueger, just a guy trying to make over a 54 year old church sanctuary
on a well-stretched shoestring. Furthermore, me making good audio recordings
is subordinate to a larger scale effort that includes theatrical lighting
and video.

But now it's "we." So who else helps you make recordings,
other than the musicians and hall proprietors?

I was speaking of those persons and others involved in video and lighting,
since we are a team.

[Arny Krueger]

"John Atkinson" wrote in
message

On Jan 20, 1:23 pm, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:
"John Atkinson" wrote in

On Jan 20, 8:06 am, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:
"John Atkinson" wrote in

[Nor] professional recording engineer, putting to one
side your "in this case..." Given that your work
recording the church choir for which you also do the
live sound was the proof you offered on r.a.p. for you
being a "professional,"

Curious.

Not at all. My statement was based on your own words as
posted on r.a.p.

Really? When was that?

Initially in 2005. First on rec.audio.pro and more
recently on r.a.o. See, for example, message

where you asked:

Given that people occasionally pay me for some
of my audio efforts, can't I squeek by as a professional?
When they have to hire someone to do my job at church,
its a $150 gig for him. Small potatoes in the larger
view, but isn't creating value at the rate of about $8K
a year worth some kind of standing?

Ah, something far less clear than a direct claim. Now comes the predictable
twist and turn session:

Small "pototoes" that kind of income may be may be,
Mr. Krueger, but as you actually work for free, it still
doesn't define you as a "professional" recording engineer
as you subsequently argued.

It does not in my view then or now create a unqualified qualification, as
the phrase "squeak by" and question mark indicate. I base my stronger
current argument that I am a professional recordist on the music festival
work that I do which is a whole 'nuther thing than my church work.

No doubt a questionable interpretation, such as the
others we've seen from you lately, John.

"We"?

Oh yes. Of course you probably stay away from places
where you aren't fawned over.

Not at all, as you well know, Mr. Krueger, having appeared
on-stage with me.

Come on John, the audience was full of your fans. Other than myself, Mssrs
Nousaine and Sullivan, who was there representing the pro-science viewpoint?

BTW, my experience has been that those who habiutally (sic) use
the first-person plural and therefore claim to be speaking on
behalf of unnamed others, are really just revealing their
own insecurities.

No habit John just something that you are obviously not having a close
relationship - the facts.

Thank you at long last for owning up to the truth: that
you are a hobbyist.

Sue me for having both hobbies and also doing
professional work in a number of areas.

But, contrary to your public claims in the past, and as
you now admit, Mr. Krueger, _not_ as a "professional" recording
engineer.

Any such admission in the here and now is a figment of your imagination,
John. Such figments seem to specially afflict persons who have based much if
not all of their working careers on perceiving and writing about imaginary
differences.

[Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!]

On Jan 20, 3:13*pm, "Arny Krueger" wrote:
"John Atkinson" wrote in

Small "pototoes" that kind of income may be may be,
Mr. Krueger, but as you actually work for free, it still
doesn't define you as a "professional" recording engineer
as you subsequently argued.

It does not in my view then or now create a unqualified qualification, as
the phrase "squeak by" and question mark indicate. I base my stronger
current argument that I am a professional recordist on the music festival
work that I do which is a whole 'nuther thing than my church work.

Here's the dealio, GOIA: I have played in front of thousands of
people, collectively tens of thousands. The largest group I have
performed in front of at a single gig is about 5,000. I have played in
some of the top clubs in this city. I have performed session work in a
studio. I have given lessons. I have been paid for every one of those
activities.

I am not a "professional" musician. The most I could claim is being a
"semi-professional". That is also the most you could possibly claim.

You are not a "professional" anything unless you derive your living
from that activity:

semiprofessional
Adjective
1. (of a person) engaged in an activity or sport part time for pay
2. (of an activity or sport) engaged in by semiprofessional people

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/semiprofessional

Note the "part-time".

Now one definition of a professional is this: A skilled practitioner;
an expert.

But since you've admitted yourself that your recordings are
substandard this certainly doesn't apply to you. LOL!

[Harry Lavo]

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"John Atkinson" wrote in
message


snip

Oh yes. Of course you probably stay away from places
where you aren't fawned over.

Not at all, as you well know, Mr. Krueger, having appeared
on-stage with me.

Come on John, the audience was full of your fans. Other than myself,
Mssrs Nousaine and Sullivan, who was there representing the pro-science
viewpoint?

And you know this how, Arny? You interviewed everybody? You've had every
person in that room pegged -- pro-Arny, pro-John? I don't think so. You
really are condescending to a whole bunch of people you do not know, whose
presence at a Stereophile show and forum does not neccessarily mean they are
in John's hip pocket. And many of whom are serious, objective
audiophiles, I would guess.

[John Atkinson[_2_]]

On Jan 20, 4:05*pm, "Arny Krueger" wrote:
"John Atkinson" wrote in

On Jan 20, 1:17 pm, "Arny Krueger" wrote:
"Harry Lavo" wrote in message

Funny, most professional musicians early in their
careers are happy to have somebody with some experience
and decent equipment record them. And they can usually
find a decent sounding place.

Other than the decent sounding space, we've got some of
those resources in place already.

"We"? Up to now you have been complaining that your
recordings are not of good enough quality to be shared
with others, Mr. Krueger, because, among many other
reasons, you are just one person and cannot be expected
to have the same resources, equipment, and access
to halls and performers.

Not at all.

Those, again, were your own words, Mr. Krueger.

As usual John, you're it all up.

I'm it all up? If you say so, Mr. Krueger. :-)

The problem is not that I'm just one person because after
all you're just one person and you have proven that you
have access to all that.

The access is not taken for granted, Mr. Krueger, it is
the result of a lot of hard work.

No the difference is that you are John Atkinson, editor of
what may be the largest high end ragazine in the US with
some of its resources behind you...

Actually, the Stereophile recordings are financed upfront
by me, from soup to nuts, as they say. The magazine leases
the masters from me and pays for the resultant CD's pressing
and distribution costs. And I didn't get to be the editor of
"the largest high end ragazine in the US" without a large
amount of work on my part.

...and I'm Arny Krueger, just a guy trying to make over a
54 year old church sanctuary on a well-stretched shoestring.

Sigh. There's nothing to stop you exploring other halls, other
musicians, Mr. Krueger. You just have to care enough about
the end result which in turn means caring about the details.
When I record piano, for example, at my expense I have the
instrument voiced to suit the performer's needs before the
start of the first session and tuned before each subsequent
session. If you want good piano sound, start with a well-tuned
piano. If you don't take that care, it doesn't really matter
how good your microphones are nor how carefully you place them.

Furthermore, me making good audio recordings is subordinate
*to a larger scale effort that includes theatrical lighting and
video.

Nothing complicates a good audio recording situation more than
having to allow for video. But why don't you record at the rehearsal
when the video and lighting are not necessary?

Face it Mr. Krueger, all you are offering is excuses. If you really
cared about recording high-quality audio, you would make the effort.
That you don't make that effort is all too informative about your
lack of "professional" status, I am afraid.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

[Boon]

On Jan 20, 4:04�am, "Arny Krueger" wrote:
"Jenn" wrote in message







If it were me, I'd do the following: �Put up flyers at
Wayne State and at WCCC music departments. �On the flyer,
state that you are a RE, wanting to practice. �You'll
record them for (fill in very inexpensive $ amount, or
free), if they will reserve the space at the college.
Send a letter to each member of the Applied Music
(private lesson) faculty, making the offer. �Tell them
that their students (or they themselves) get a free
finished recording; all the teacher has to do is reserve
the hall TWICE: once for rehearsal, once for the
recording. �It need not be a performance. �The student
and/or the Applied faculty should jump at the chance,
especially for students who have their final undergrad or
grad recital coming up. �It doesn't matter if there is a
recording program at the college; for an arrangement like
this, they would charge for the recording. �If you don't,
they will use you. �You can get practice, a good
recording, and you will be helping a student. �It costs
you nothing but your time.

My time is way too valuable to waste time trying to please a bunch of RAO
trolls with a recording to **** on.

The outcome of me providing a recording for RAO is virtually 100%
predictable, and negative.

BTW, I have far better contacts at Wayne than that.-

I'll save this post for every time you start to claim victory after
someone doesn't provide you with proof, you big coward.

Boon

[Arny Krueger]

"John Atkinson" wrote in
message

On Jan 20, 4:05 pm, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:
"John Atkinson" wrote in

On Jan 20, 1:17 pm, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:
"Harry Lavo" wrote in message

Funny, most professional musicians early in their
careers are happy to have somebody with some
experience and decent equipment record them. And they
can usually find a decent sounding place.

Other than the decent sounding space, we've got some of
those resources in place already.

"We"? Up to now you have been complaining that your
recordings are not of good enough quality to be shared
with others, Mr. Krueger, because, among many other
reasons, you are just one person and cannot be expected
to have the same resources, equipment, and access
to halls and performers.

Not at all.

Those, again, were your own words, Mr. Krueger.

The words were mine, but John your interpretation of them was from outer
space.


The problem is not that I'm just one person because after
all you're just one person and you have proven that you
have access to all that.

The access is not taken for granted, Mr. Krueger, it is
the result of a lot of hard work.

Yup. OTOH, I don't believe that you've ever actually done significant
architectural mods on any of the venues you've recorded in.

No the difference is that you are John Atkinson, editor
of what may be the largest high end ragazine in the US
with some of its resources behind you...

Actually, the Stereophile recordings are financed upfront
by me, from soup to nuts, as they say. The magazine leases
the masters from me and pays for the resultant CD's pressing
and distribution costs. And I didn't get to be the editor
of "the largest high end ragazine in the US" without a
large amount of work on my part.

Not to mention what many consider to be excessive amounts of shading the
truth and more than a little of what some call outright prevarication and
others call technical incompetence in the service of advertising.

...and I'm Arny Krueger, just a guy trying to make over a
54 year old church sanctuary on a well-stretched
shoestring.

Sigh. There's nothing to stop you exploring other halls,
other musicians, Mr. Krueger.

Nothing but priorities.

You just have to care enough about
the end result which in turn means caring about the details.

Well lets see, this will be the second time today I post here that for me
the journey may be more important than the destination. Certainly as
important.

When I record piano, for example, at my expense I have the
instrument voiced to suit the performer's needs before the
start of the first session and tuned before each
subsequent session. If you want good piano sound, start
with a well-tuned piano. If you don't take that care, it
doesn't really matter how good your microphones are nor how carefully you
place
them.

Agreed.

Furthermore, me making good audio recordings is
subordinate to a larger scale effort that includes
theatrical lighting and video.

Nothing complicates a good audio recording situation more
than having to allow for video. But why don't you record
at the rehearsal when the video and lighting are not
necessary?

I guess you've just never seen video or lighting complex enough to take
significant rehearsing, John.

Face it Mr. Krueger, all you are offering is excuses.

I don't feel any need to make excuses for charting my own path and following
it.

If you really cared about recording high-quality audio, you
would make the effort.

My greatest interest is the total experience, not just one part of it. Its
about serving 3 course dinners, not just an entre.

That you don't make that effort is
all too informative about your lack of "professional"
status, I am afraid.

Not at all, it is just an indication that am part of a world that is
composed of more than just audio.

[Arny Krueger]

"Harry Lavo" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"John Atkinson" wrote in
message


snip

Oh yes. Of course you probably stay away from places
where you aren't fawned over.

Not at all, as you well know, Mr. Krueger, having
appeared on-stage with me.

Come on John, the audience was full of your fans. Other
than myself, Mssrs Nousaine and Sullivan, who was there
representing the pro-science viewpoint?

And you know this how, Arny?

Hmm Harry Lavo is another one of those partial illiterates who doesn't know
what a question mark means.

You interviewed everybody?

I didn't have to do any such thing to frame the question.

You've had every person in that room pegged -- pro-Arny,
pro-John? I don't think so. You really are
condescending to a whole bunch of people you do not know,
whose presence at a Stereophile show and forum does not
neccessarily mean they are in John's hip pocket. And
many of whom are serious, objective audiophiles, I would
guess.

Well Harry, did that melt down make you feel better? Might I suggest a high
colonic to further improve your feelings of self-worth? ;-)

[Harry Lavo]

"John Atkinson" wrote in message
...
On Jan 20, 4:05 pm, "Arny Krueger" wrote:
"John Atkinson" wrote in

On Jan 20, 1:17 pm, "Arny Krueger" wrote:
"Harry Lavo" wrote in message

Funny, most professional musicians early in their
careers are happy to have somebody with some experience
and decent equipment record them. And they can usually
find a decent sounding place.

Other than the decent sounding space, we've got some of
those resources in place already.

"We"? Up to now you have been complaining that your
recordings are not of good enough quality to be shared
with others, Mr. Krueger, because, among many other
reasons, you are just one person and cannot be expected
to have the same resources, equipment, and access
to halls and performers.

Not at all.

Those, again, were your own words, Mr. Krueger.

As usual John, you're it all up.

I'm it all up? If you say so, Mr. Krueger. :-)

The problem is not that I'm just one person because after
all you're just one person and you have proven that you
have access to all that.

The access is not taken for granted, Mr. Krueger, it is
the result of a lot of hard work.

No the difference is that you are John Atkinson, editor of
what may be the largest high end ragazine in the US with
some of its resources behind you...

Actually, the Stereophile recordings are financed upfront
by me, from soup to nuts, as they say. The magazine leases
the masters from me and pays for the resultant CD's pressing
and distribution costs. And I didn't get to be the editor of
"the largest high end ragazine in the US" without a large
amount of work on my part.

...and I'm Arny Krueger, just a guy trying to make over a
54 year old church sanctuary on a well-stretched shoestring.

Sigh. There's nothing to stop you exploring other halls, other
musicians, Mr. Krueger. You just have to care enough about
the end result which in turn means caring about the details.
When I record piano, for example, at my expense I have the
instrument voiced to suit the performer's needs before the
start of the first session and tuned before each subsequent
session. If you want good piano sound, start with a well-tuned
piano. If you don't take that care, it doesn't really matter
how good your microphones are nor how carefully you place them.

Furthermore, me making good audio recordings is subordinate
to a larger scale effort that includes theatrical lighting and
video.

Nothing complicates a good audio recording situation more than
having to allow for video. But why don't you record at the rehearsal
when the video and lighting are not necessary?

Face it Mr. Krueger, all you are offering is excuses. If you really
cared about recording high-quality audio, you would make the effort.
That you don't make that effort is all too informative about your
lack of "professional" status, I am afraid.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile


Hear, Hear!! Absolutely true.,...every word of it.

[Harry Lavo]

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Harry Lavo" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"John Atkinson" wrote in
message


snip

Oh yes. Of course you probably stay away from places
where you aren't fawned over.

Not at all, as you well know, Mr. Krueger, having
appeared on-stage with me.

Come on John, the audience was full of your fans. Other
than myself, Mssrs Nousaine and Sullivan, who was there
representing the pro-science viewpoint?

And you know this how, Arny?

Hmm Harry Lavo is another one of those partial illiterates who doesn't
know what a question mark means.

A question is a question, no matter how phrased, Arny. Illiterate I ain't.
I even know how to use words for "effect".


You interviewed everybody?

I didn't have to do any such thing to frame the question.

Since your "question" was part of a churlish put-down of John, Arny, you
presume to know the question's answer, and you presume John has some way of
knowing the answer as well. Neither of which presumptions have much chance
of being true. That's a matter of logic, Arny.



You've had every person in that room pegged -- pro-Arny,
pro-John? I don't think so. You really are
condescending to a whole bunch of people you do not know,
whose presence at a Stereophile show and forum does not
neccessarily mean they are in John's hip pocket. And
many of whom are serious, objective audiophiles, I would
guess.

Well Harry, did that melt down make you feel better? Might I suggest a
high colonic to further improve your feelings of self-worth? ;-)

No melt-down on my part, Arny. Just simply refusing to let you get away
with your churlish behavior without bringing it to your attention, in all
it's churlishness. You do know what the word churlish means, don't you?
Without looking it up in Wikopedia or Websters?

[John Atkinson[_2_]]

On Jan 20, 5:39 pm, "Arny Krueger" wrote:
"John Atkinson" wrote in

On Jan 20, 4:05 pm, "Arny Krueger" wrote:
"John Atkinson" wrote in

On Jan 20, 1:17 pm, "Arny Krueger" wrote:
"Harry Lavo" wrote in message

Funny, most professional musicians early in their
careers are happy to have somebody with some
experience and decent equipment record them. And they
can usually find a decent sounding place.

Other than the decent sounding space, we've got some of
those resources in place already.

"We"? Up to now you have been complaining that your
recordings are not of good enough quality to be shared
with others, Mr. Krueger, because, among many other
reasons, you are just one person and cannot be expected
to have the same resources, equipment, and access
to halls and performers.

Not at all.

Those, again, were your own words, Mr. Krueger.

The words were mine...

Thank you for the admission, Mr. Krueger.

but John your interpretation of them was from outer
space.

Not hardly, Mr. Krueger, unless you are suggesting
as you have done before on this newsgroup that the
word you choose to to use are not the correct ones
to accurately convey your meaning. :-)

The problem is not that I'm just one person because after
all you're just one person and you have proven that you
have access to all that.

The access is not taken for granted, Mr. Krueger, it is
the result of a lot of hard work.

Yup. OTOH, I don't believe that you've ever actually done
significant architectural mods on any of the venues you've
recorded in.

No. What I do, Mr. Krueger, as someone who is concerned
about the ultimate sound quality of the project is to look for
and use halls that sound good without architectural mods,
halls that have the appropriate acoustics for the kind of music.
In the last 10 years, I have recorded in California, Kansas,
Indiana, South Dakota, New York, Montreal, several locations
in Minnesota, and Henry Wood Hall in London. Not one of
them required me to do any building construction, though
the hall in Goshen, Indiana, and Henry Wood Hall do have
acoustics that can be modified with peripeheral drapes.

No the difference is that you are John Atkinson, editor
of what may be the largest high end ragazine in the US
with some of its resources behind you...

Actually, the Stereophile recordings are financed upfront
by me, from soup to nuts, as they say. The magazine leases
the masters from me and pays for the resultant CD's pressing
and distribution costs. And I didn't get to be the editor
of "the largest high end ragazine in the US" without a
large amount of work on my part.

Not to mention what many consider to be excessive amounts
of shading the truth and more than a little of what some call
outright prevarication and others call technical incompetence
in the service of advertising.

Ah the usual Arny Krueger "debating trade" tricks of a) descending
into insults and b) quoting unnamed others who share his views.
Whats the word, Mr. Krueger, that describes this behavior of yours?
Ah yes, bull****!

...and I'm Arny Krueger, just a guy trying to make over a
54 year old church sanctuary on a well-stretched
shoestring.

Sigh. There's nothing to stop you exploring other halls,
other musicians, Mr. Krueger.

Nothing but priorities.

Well, if you are are a "professional" recording engineer, as
you have been claiming, Mr. Krueger, what other priorities
exist?

You just have to care enough about the end result which
in turn means caring about the details.

Well lets see, this will be the second time today I post here
that for me the journey may be more important than the
destination. Certainly as important.

Putting aside your non-sequitur, Mr. Krueger, all I can assume
that the destination doesn't matter to you, given all the
excuses you have come up with about why your recordings
don't sound good enough for others to hear.

When I record piano, for example, at my expense I have the
instrument voiced to suit the performer's needs before the
start of the first session and tuned before each
subsequent session. If you want good piano sound, start
with a well-tuned piano. If you don't take that care, it
doesn't really matter how good your microphones are nor
how carefully you place them.

Agreed.

So why then don't you apply similar care and attention to
detail with _your_ sound recordings, Mr. Krueger? That's all
part and parcel of being a professional recording engineer.

Furthermore, me making good audio recordings is
subordinate to a larger scale effort that includes
theatrical lighting and video.

Nothing complicates a good audio recording situation more
than having to allow for video. But why don't you record
at the rehearsal when the video and lighting are not
necessary?

I guess you've just never seen video or lighting complex enough
to take significant rehearsing, John.

Of course I have. But surely you are not saying that the
musicians you choose to record _never_ rehearse
without complex video and lighting? As I said, you are
just throwing up excuse after excuse as to why your
own recordings, by your own words, Mr. Krueger, are
not up to your own standards of quality.

If you really cared about recording high-quality audio, you
would make the effort.

My greatest interest is the total experience, not just one part
of it. Its about serving 3 course dinners, not just an entre.

But as someone who used to claim to be a "professional
recording engineer," your responsibility _was_ the entree.
How do you explain your failure in that department to those
who employ you?

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

[Arny Krueger]

"John Atkinson" wrote in
message

On Jan 20, 5:39 pm, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:
"John Atkinson" wrote in

On Jan 20, 4:05 pm, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:
"John Atkinson" wrote in

On Jan 20, 1:17 pm, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:
"Harry Lavo" wrote in message

Funny, most professional musicians early in their
careers are happy to have somebody with some
experience and decent equipment record them. And
they can usually find a decent sounding place.

Other than the decent sounding space, we've got some
of those resources in place already.

"We"? Up to now you have been complaining that your
recordings are not of good enough quality to be shared
with others, Mr. Krueger, because, among many other
reasons, you are just one person and cannot be
expected
to have the same resources, equipment, and access
to halls and performers.

Not at all.

Those, again, were your own words, Mr. Krueger.

The words were mine...

Thank you for the admission, Mr. Krueger.

but John your interpretation of them was from outer
space.

Not hardly, Mr. Krueger, unless you are suggesting
as you have done before on this newsgroup that the
word you choose to to use are not the correct ones
to accurately convey your meaning. :-)

No john, the fault is with you.

The problem is not that I'm just one person because
after all you're just one person and you have proven
that you have access to all that.

The access is not taken for granted, Mr. Krueger, it is
the result of a lot of hard work.

Yup. OTOH, I don't believe that you've ever actually done
significant architectural mods on any of the venues
you've recorded in.

No. What I do, Mr. Krueger, as someone who is concerned
about the ultimate sound quality of the project is to
look for and use halls that sound good without architectural mods,
halls that have the appropriate acoustics for the kind of
music.

That's one big difference between you and I, John. We have different goals
and are doing different things to achieve them. Seems like a simple concept
but somehow you don't seem to be getting it.

In the last 10 years, I have recorded in
California, Kansas, Indiana, South Dakota, New York,
Montreal, several locations
in Minnesota, and Henry Wood Hall in London. Not one of
them required me to do any building construction, though
the hall in Goshen, Indiana, and Henry Wood Hall do have
acoustics that can be modified with peripheral drapes.

How many square feet of drapes would it take to make a difference in a room
with over 20,000 square feet of wall, floor and ceiling space, given that it
has no appreciable absorptive surfaces in it at all?

No the difference is that you are John Atkinson, editor
of what may be the largest high end ragazine in the US
with some of its resources behind you...

Actually, the Stereophile recordings are financed
upfront by me, from soup to nuts, as they say. The
magazine leases the masters from me and pays for the
resultant CD's pressing and distribution costs. And I
didn't get to be the editor of "the largest high end
ragazine in the US" without a large amount of work on
my part.

Not to mention what many consider to be excessive amounts
of shading the truth and more than a little of what some
call outright prevarication and others call technical
incompetence in the service of advertising.

Ah the usual Arny Krueger "debating trade" tricks of a)
descending into insults and b) quoting unnamed others who
share his views. Whats the word, Mr. Krueger, that
describes this behavior of yours? Ah yes, bull****!

Yes John, it is bs for you to characterize your critics this way.

...and I'm Arny Krueger, just a guy trying to make
over a 54 year old church sanctuary on a well-stretched
shoestring.

Sigh. There's nothing to stop you exploring other halls,
other musicians, Mr. Krueger.

Nothing but priorities.

Well, if you are are a "professional" recording engineer,
as you have been claiming, Mr. Krueger, what other priorities
exist?

The priorities that are involved by my other areas of involvement.

You just have to care enough about the end result which
in turn means caring about the details.

Well lets see, this will be the second time today I post
here that for me the journey may be more important than
the destination. Certainly as important.

Putting aside your non-sequitur, Mr. Krueger, all I can
assume that the destination doesn't matter to you, given
all the excuses you have come up with about why your recordings
don't sound good enough for others to hear.

I never said that my recordings don't sound good enough for others to hear.
This is just another example of your inability to realize that not
everything is a global issue. What I said is that the recordings that I
might have the right to distribute are not up to my standards. I wonder how
many times that I'll have to say this before you get it, John?

When I record piano, for example, at my expense I have
the instrument voiced to suit the performer's needs
before the start of the first session and tuned before
each
subsequent session. If you want good piano sound, start
with a well-tuned piano. If you don't take that care, it
doesn't really matter how good your microphones are nor
how carefully you place them.

Agreed.

Piano tuning is not very expensive, and it can be a reasonable precaution.

So why then don't you apply similar care and attention to
detail with _your_ sound recordings, Mr. Krueger? That's
all part and parcel of being a professional recording
engineer.

Priorites, John. The great sound of a well-tuned piano is lost if the piano
at hand is mediocre, or if it is trapped in a room with very poor acoustics.

Furthermore, me making good audio recordings is
subordinate to a larger scale effort that includes
theatrical lighting and video.

Nothing complicates a good audio recording situation
more than having to allow for video. But why don't you
record at the rehearsal when the video and lighting are not
necessary?

I guess you've just never seen video or lighting complex
enough to take significant rehearsing, John.

Of course I have. But surely you are not saying that the
musicians you choose to record _never_ rehearse
without complex video and lighting?

No, John it is that we rehearse the lighting at the same time they are
rehearsing their music.

As I said, you are
just throwing up excuse after excuse as to why your
own recordings, by your own words, Mr. Krueger, are
not up to your own standards of quality.

Not excuses John. Reasons. You seem to be incapable of relating to people
who don't have the identical same priorities as you do.

If you really cared about recording high-quality audio,
you would make the effort.

My greatest interest is the total experience, not just
one part of it. Its about serving 3 course dinners, not
just an entrée.

But as someone who used to claim to be a "professional
recording engineer," your responsibility _was_ the entree.

As I continue to waste my time by casting pearls before a swine, I must
repeat to the swine that my priorities are different and more diverse than
yours, John.


How do you explain your failure in that department to
those who employ you?

That's a different world, John. Given that you are so completely incapable
of understanding the world in which I am a volunteer, there is no point to
wasting time trying to explain the world of band and choral festivals.

[Boon]

From the DSM-IV, on narcissistic personality disorders:

"[Patient] has a grandiose sense of self-importance; is preoccupied
with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or
ideal love; believes that he or she is "special" and unique; requires
excessive admiration; has a sense of entitlement; has a grandiose
sense of self-importance; is interpersonally exploitative; lacks
empathy; is often envious of others or believes others are envious of
him or her; shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes."

And now some gems from Arny:

"Your interpretation of them was from outer space...

No john, the fault is with you...

That's one big difference between you and I, John...

Seems like a simple concept but somehow you don't seem to be getting
it...

This is just another example of your inability to realize...

I wonder how many times that I'll have to say this before you get
it...

You seem to be incapable of relating to people...

As I continue to waste my time by casting pearls before a swine...

Given that you are so completely incapable of understanding...

There is no point to wasting time trying to explain..."

Boon

[Harry Lavo]

"Boon" wrote in message
...
From the DSM-IV, on narcissistic personality disorders:

"[Patient] has a grandiose sense of self-importance; is preoccupied
with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or
ideal love; believes that he or she is "special" and unique; requires
excessive admiration; has a sense of entitlement; has a grandiose
sense of self-importance; is interpersonally exploitative; lacks
empathy; is often envious of others or believes others are envious of
him or her; shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes."

And now some gems from Arny:

"Your interpretation of them was from outer space...

No john, the fault is with you...

That's one big difference between you and I, John...

Seems like a simple concept but somehow you don't seem to be getting
it...

This is just another example of your inability to realize...

I wonder how many times that I'll have to say this before you get
it...

You seem to be incapable of relating to people...

As I continue to waste my time by casting pearls before a swine...

Given that you are so completely incapable of understanding...

There is no point to wasting time trying to explain..."

Boon

Seems like the perfect glass slipper for the A.K. Cinderella.

[Iain Churches[_2_]]

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"John Atkinson" wrote in

That you don't make that effort is
all too informative about your lack of "professional"
status, I am afraid.

Not at all, it is just an indication that am part of a world that is
composed of more than just audio.


On the contrary. It is a clear indication that you are
a typical "Jack of All Trades ande master of None"



Iain

[Iain Churches[_2_]]

"Iain Churches" wrote in message
i.fi...

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"John Atkinson" wrote in

That you don't make that effort is
all too informative about your lack of "professional"
status, I am afraid.

Not at all, it is just an indication that am part of a world that is
composed of more than just audio.


On the contrary. It is a clear indication that you are
a typical "Jack of All Trades ande master of None"


PS. It is very rate indeed to find a recording egineer
who can competently tackle all the various types of
recording from orchestral, through jazz, multitrack
pop music etc. They are worlds apart.

That's why most recording engineers specialise in a sector
at which they excel and in which they are interested.

In the words of John Lennon, " ...... You know it
ain't easy!"

Iain

[Iain Churches[_2_]]

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
news
The outcome of me providing a recording for RAO is virtually 100%
predictable, and negative.


You do us a deep injustice, Mr Krueger:-)
As already stated, if you post a link which
*does* meet a professional standard, I will
be the first to make a public apology for
doubting your capabilities.

Iain

[Iain Churches[_2_]]

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"John Atkinson" wrote in
message


Not professional recording engineer, putting to one side
your "in this case..." Given that your work recording the
church choir for which you also do the live sound was the
proof you offered on r.a.p. for you being a
"professional,"

Curious. No doubt a questionable interpretation, such as the others we've
seen from you lately, John.

Mr. Krueger, it appears that you have
indeed admitted
that you are not a professional engineer.

I am not a professional engineer because those words have legal meaning in
the State of Michigan, which I would be a fool to pretend to be.


The claim which you now seem to have rescinded was
to be a "professional recording engineer".

Without

1. an income derived in principle from recording.
2. a professional training
3. work to a professional standard
4. commercially available material

no-one, but no-one would regard you as a
professional recording engineer.

Your efforts as an unpaid church volunteer are
highly commendable. Why is this not enough?

Iain

[Iain Churches[_2_]]

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
news
"John Atkinson" wrote in
Yet the Google record is clear, Mr. Krueger, that until
other recording engineers like Iain Churches noticed and
complained, you were indeed "pretending" to be a
"professional" recording engineer.

Well that's another example of your ignorance John. Iain Churches has
said that he is a producer and most specifically not a recording engineer.

Your poor reading sklills let you down badly once again Mr Krueger.
I have never made such a statement. If you think I have, please
quote chapter and verse.

I *have* stated emphatically I am not a producer
(although I have produced two recordings as the music
was within my area of expertise.)

What I did state was that I am not a recordist. I said this,
because you, Arny, as I have pointed out a dozen times,
use the job title incorrectly. A recordist is, strictly speaking a
person who records dialoge (sound sync) FX and foley for
films and TV. Even you should know that.

It's possible for some people to be both a producer and an engineer, but
he lacks the technical chops to be an engineer.

Your ignorance is remarkable, Mr Krueger.

Iain has made numerous false claims in the past,

Please list them.

and had embarked on his
vendetta against me long before he started going off on this recording
engineer thing.

I have nothing against you, except your false claim
to be a professional recording engineer, which you
have now rescinded.

I must admit find your pseudo-religious hypocrisy
distasteful - but I understand and accept that born
again Baptists are sometimes like that. So be it.



John, Iain has claimed in the recent past that a person with your skill
set and accomplishments can't exist. He seems to be back pedaling right
now.

Not at all. John like many others, has the skill and
qualification to fill either vacancy of producer or engineer.
I recall quite clearly him saying that as a producer he uses
one or sometimes two engineers, and as an engineer,
he uses a second person as a producer. That's
standard practice, and one of the reasons for
the high quality of his work.


Iain

[Iain Churches[_2_]]

"George M. Middius" wrote in message
...


John Atkinson said:

... until other recording engineers like Iain Churches noticed
and complained, you were indeed "pretending" to be a
"professional" recording engineer. Thank you at long last
for owning up to the truth: that you are a hobbyist. And
as I have said, there is nothing wrong with that.

Of course there's nothing wrong with trying one's hand at making
recordings.
However, according to the Kroo himself, there's quite a bit wrong with the
results. Hence the secrecy.


Whatever is wrong with the results, it is probably
something that can be put right. It's a question of
technique, which needs to be studied under someone
who knows what he/she is doing.

There are many pitfalls along the way.

Iain

[Iain Churches[_2_]]

"John Atkinson" wrote in message
...

Yet the Google record is clear, Mr. Krueger, that until
other recording engineers like Iain Churches noticed and
complained, you were indeed "pretending" to be a
"professional" recording engineer.

It was not actually I who noticed it John.
This was at a time whe I didn't bother to read
Arny's posts - they contained nothing of interest
to me.

But Arny's claimed status was pointed out to me
by a "very serious" professional, with whom
surprise surprise) Arny had chosen to cross
swords some time back. Then, soon afterwards
came the recording which Arny had placed on a
TinyUrl and another title which was sent to me as
an attachment from a pal in the UK. These I had
on the CD-RW which I have mentioned previously.

Thank you at long last
for owning up to the truth: that you are a hobbyist.

This was probably not an easy admission, and
a blow to Arny's pride.

And
as I have said, there is nothing wrong with that.

Indeed. Arny's charitable contributions to the
activities of his church are most praiseworthy:-)

Iain

[Iain Churches[_2_]]

"TT" wrote in message
. au...


BTW I hope Marc, Jen, JA, Iain and George didn't injure themselves when
they read the post? My sides are still hurting from the laugh I had :-))

I thought it was absolutelly wonderful!
What a sense of humour:-)

But, one question. Who was that rotund,
obese person who looked as if he was
about to nod off in the top right had picture?

The whole thing reminds me of the classic
Russian film "Til Eulenspiegel" with ten
(or even a dozen:-) blind beggars one behind
the other hanging on to each other's coat-tails
and walking round in circles in the village
square.

The blind leading the blind!


Iain

[TT]

"Iain Churches" wrote in message
i.fi...

"TT" wrote in message
. au...


BTW I hope Marc, Jen, JA, Iain and George didn't injure themselves when
they read the post? My sides are still hurting from the laugh I had :-))

I thought it was absolutelly wonderful!
What a sense of humour:-)

But, one question. Who was that rotund,
obese person who looked as if he was
about to nod off in the top right had picture?

The whole thing reminds me of the classic
Russian film "Til Eulenspiegel" with ten
(or even a dozen:-) blind beggars one behind
the other hanging on to each other's coat-tails
and walking round in circles in the village
square.

The blind leading the blind!


Iain

In this case it must be the deaf leading the deaf ;-)

Cheers TT

[Iain Churches[_2_]]

"TT" wrote in message
. au...

"Iain Churches" wrote in message
i.fi...

"TT" wrote in message
. au...


BTW I hope Marc, Jen, JA, Iain and George didn't injure themselves when
they read the post? My sides are still hurting from the laugh I had
:-))

I thought it was absolutelly wonderful!
What a sense of humour:-)

But, one question. Who was that rotund,
obese person who looked as if he was
about to nod off in the top right had picture?

The whole thing reminds me of the classic
Russian film "Til Eulenspiegel" with ten
(or even a dozen:-) blind beggars one behind
the other hanging on to each other's coat-tails
and walking round in circles in the village
square.

The blind leading the blind!

In this case it must be the deaf leading the deaf ;-)


Shame on us all TT, for casting aspersions upon the
integrity of this group's leading figure :-)))

Iain

[TT]

"Jenn" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

"Jenn" wrote in message


If it were me, I'd do the following: Put up flyers at
Wayne State and at WCCC music departments. On the flyer,
state that you are a RE, wanting to practice. You'll
record them for (fill in very inexpensive $ amount, or
free), if they will reserve the space at the college.
Send a letter to each member of the Applied Music
(private lesson) faculty, making the offer. Tell them
that their students (or they themselves) get a free
finished recording; all the teacher has to do is reserve
the hall TWICE: once for rehearsal, once for the
recording. It need not be a performance. The student
and/or the Applied faculty should jump at the chance,
especially for students who have their final undergrad or
grad recital coming up. It doesn't matter if there is a
recording program at the college; for an arrangement like
this, they would charge for the recording. If you don't,
they will use you. You can get practice, a good
recording, and you will be helping a student. It costs
you nothing but your time.

My time is way too valuable to waste time trying to please a bunch of RAO
trolls with a recording to **** on.

That's not why I went to the trouble of making these suggestions. I
just think that it's sad that you haven't had the opportunity to make
the kind of recording that you wish to make. Whether or not you post
the result here is obviously up to you.


The outcome of me providing a recording for RAO is virtually 100%
predictable, and negative.

BTW, I have far better contacts at Wayne than that.

Fine. I hope that someday you get to make the recording that you wish
to make. It's obviously an important activity for you.


Why oh why didn't I make the odds a 1,000:1, it was a sure bet actually that
AK would react this way. The vitriol oozes off the screen reading his reply
to you.


Cheers TT

[TT]

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Jenn" wrote in message

In article
, "Arny
Krueger" wrote:

Fine. I hope that someday you get to make the recording
that you wish to make. It's obviously an important
activity for you.

Actually, the trip is worth at least as much to me as the destination. If
I finish the journey, look at all the organization and infrastructure
there will be. It will likely outlive my involvement.
Are you trying to get our hopes up now? Do you have some terminal disease
we should know about?

TT

[Arny Krueger]

"TT" wrote in message


Are you trying to get our hopes up now? Do you have some
terminal disease we should know about?


Speaks to your lack of humanity, Terry. It must really suck being you.

[Arny Krueger]

"Iain Churches" wrote in message
i.fi
"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
news
The outcome of me providing a recording for RAO is
virtually 100% predictable, and negative.

You do us a deep injustice, Mr Krueger:-)
As already stated, if you post a link which
*does* meet a professional standard, I will
be the first to make a public apology for
doubting your capabilities.

Won't ever happen Iain, because you are too bias-driven.

[Arny Krueger]

"Iain Churches" wrote in message
i.fi
"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"John Atkinson" wrote in

That you don't make that effort is
all too informative about your lack of "professional"
status, I am afraid.

Not at all, it is just an indication that am part of a
world that is composed of more than just audio.


On the contrary. It is a clear indication that you are
a typical "Jack of All Trades ande master of None"

Way better than being the jack of just one trade, and never really mastering
it like you Iain.

[TT]

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"TT" wrote in message


Are you trying to get our hopes up now? Do you have some
terminal disease we should know about?


Speaks to your lack of humanity, Terry.

I wanted to know if I needed to send flowers or something or whether you
were playing for the sympathy vote.

It must really suck being you.

Yes, I can see why you would say that, while peering through the murky mist
of a diseased mind.

TT.

[TT]

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Iain Churches" wrote in message
i.fi
"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
news
The outcome of me providing a recording for RAO is
virtually 100% predictable, and negative.

Since you klaim to not have one single good one from you collection of
1,000s is that surprising?


You do us a deep injustice, Mr Krueger:-)
As already stated, if you post a link which
*does* meet a professional standard, I will
be the first to make a public apology for
doubting your capabilities.

Won't ever happen Iain, because you are too bias-driven.

I think he is Volvo driven actually Arny :-)) Iain used to be Suzuki driven
but he has moved on.

BTW it's time to put up or shut up. Your bleating is becoming tiresome.

TT

[Arny Krueger]

"TT" wrote in message
. au

Your bleating is becoming tiresome.

Haven't you noticed that when people stop lying about me, my posting rate on
RAO goes way down?

BTW, life is sooo good away from RAO.

[Iain Churches[_2_]]

"TT" wrote in message
. au...

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Iain Churches" wrote in message
i.fi
"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
news
The outcome of me providing a recording for RAO is
virtually 100% predictable, and negative.

Since you klaim to not have one single good one from you collection of
1,000s is that surprising?


You do us a deep injustice, Mr Krueger:-)
As already stated, if you post a link which
*does* meet a professional standard, I will
be the first to make a public apology for
doubting your capabilities.

Won't ever happen Iain, because you are too bias-driven.

I think he is Volvo driven actually Arny :-)) Iain used to be Suzuki
driven but he has moved on.

BTW it's time to put up or shut up. Your bleating is becoming tiresome.


Arny's 15 minutes of fame (infamy) have passed.
I think we should forget him and move on to more
interesting topics.

Iain

[TT]

"Iain Churches" wrote in message
i.fi...

"TT" wrote in message
. au...

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Iain Churches" wrote in message
i.fi
"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
news
The outcome of me providing a recording for RAO is
virtually 100% predictable, and negative.

Since you klaim to not have one single good one from you collection of
1,000s is that surprising?


You do us a deep injustice, Mr Krueger:-)
As already stated, if you post a link which
*does* meet a professional standard, I will
be the first to make a public apology for
doubting your capabilities.

Won't ever happen Iain, because you are too bias-driven.

I think he is Volvo driven actually Arny :-)) Iain used to be Suzuki
driven but he has moved on.

BTW it's time to put up or shut up. Your bleating is becoming tiresome.


Arny's 15 minutes of fame (infamy) have passed.
I think we should forget him and move on to more
interesting topics.

Iain

Agreed. But at least we got him to admit he is only an unpaid hobbyist :-)

Cheers Terry

[Arny Krueger]

"Iain Churches" wrote in message
i.fi

Arny's 15 minutes of fame (infamy) have passed.

Actually, my most recent "15 minutes of fame" lasted about 60 minutes.

There may be more in my future.

[Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!]

On Jan 21, 6:16*am, "Arny Krueger" wrote:

Speaks to your lack of humanity

LOL!