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Recording String Orchestra - HELP DESPERATELY NEEDED - JBL EVO, Tascam DA40, AKG SE 300B TIA!!!
Hello!
I've never done anything like this so I don't have any experience exept recording some vocals. I'm a classic composer and at the radio station they gave me a big all in one box which includes: JBL EVO(?) mixer (there is also a lexicon mark on it) 16 ch I think Tascam DA 40 DAT recorder (i thing the stuff is allready connected the right way) There are also 2 AKG SE300B mic's and a big stand for them So now I have to record a string orchestra (like 25 ppl) playing my music (indoors). Can somebody PPPPLEASE give me an advice on what to do (for dummies). How to position the microphones on the stand? Do I need any other gear (mics, preamps...)? TIA!!! Conan ------- Appologies for my bad english |
#2
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So now I have to record a string orchestra (like 25 ppl) playing my music (indoors). Can somebody PPPPLEASE give me an advice on what to do (for dummies). How to position the microphones on the stand? Do I need any other gear (mics, preamps...)? TIA!!! I would set up a stereo O.R.T.F. pair in front of the conductor's podium, if flying the mics above the conductor is not an option. Otherwise, fly a pair 15' above the front of the stage. This assumes stereophonic broadcast. -- Best Regards, Mark A. Weiss, P.E. www.mwcomms.com - |
#3
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Thank you for the answer!
Any idea how to position the mics. Is poiting them 90 deg. against each other an option if they are on the same stand (like i read somewhere...)? And if you suspend them above the front of the stage, in which direction to you orient them then (or do you just leave them hanging downwards)? Thanks! Conan I said dummies , so what's O.R.T.F.? "Mark & Mary Ann Weiss" wrote in hlink.net: So now I have to record a string orchestra (like 25 ppl) playing my music (indoors). Can somebody PPPPLEASE give me an advice on what to do (for dummies). How to position the microphones on the stand? Do I need any other gear (mics, preamps...)? TIA!!! I would set up a stereo O.R.T.F. pair in front of the conductor's podium, if flying the mics above the conductor is not an option. Otherwise, fly a pair 15' above the front of the stage. This assumes stereophonic broadcast. -- Best Regards, Mark A. Weiss, P.E. www.mwcomms.com - |
#4
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CoNaN247 CoNaN247 wrote in
: JBL EVO(?) mixer (there is also a lexicon mark on it) 16 ch I think Tascam DA 40 DAT recorder (i thing the stuff is allready connected the right way) There are also 2 AKG SE300B mic's and a big stand for them So now I have to record a string orchestra (like 25 ppl) playing my music (indoors). Can somebody PPPPLEASE give me an advice on what to do (for dummies). How to position the microphones on the stand? Do I need any other gear (mics, preamps...)? VERY short version: Go to a rehearsal and practice. If you are also directing the group, get someone to record for you. Place a pair of microphones up 8 to 10 feet high about 6 feet behind the conductor spread at about a 100 degree spread (open end of the V toward the group) with the business ends of the mics anywhere from 4" to 10" apart. Cables into channels 1 and 2 of the mixer. Channel and main levels about half way up. Line out to line in on the DAT recorder. Press Record. Clap your hands. Do the meters move? Good. You're ready. Longer version. The AKG SE300B can have different capsules that pick up with different directional patterns. We'll assume you have the standard pattern (cardioid). They pick up most everything in a hemisphere in front of them and less from behind. Can you get a microphone mount that lets you put two mics on a single stand? That makes placement easier. Otherwise, you'll need two stands that you can place very close together (big round bases won't make it). Placement requires listening. If the room is ugly, set up very close. If the room adds nice things to the sound back up a bit. If you get too far back things will sound fuzzy. Too close and you hear individual players instead of the group as a whole. Too low and the front players predominate. Too high and the sound gets undetailed. Put a finger in one ear and move forward and back (up and down if possible) listening intently to find the nicest sound in one ear. When you find it, put your mics there. You have to use the mixer or other mic preamps, because the DAT recorder doesn't take mic inputs. I don't know your particular EVO mixer, but it's from a line of PA gear, not designed for recording. It may be a bit noisy for this job, but it will work. If the channels have inserts, run your cables from there to the DAT recorder. The less mixer you travel through, the better. Set levels on the mixer such that the peaks very seldom hit the red. You don't want to risk distortion on a classical recording. The DAT recorder will do just fine. Analog line out from the mixer to line in. Set levels such that average levels are about half way up and NEVER NEVER approach max. As long as the meters are moving some, levels will be fine. S/N ratio on the recorder will far exceed the noise floor in your room, in your mixer, and in your mics. How will you monitor the recording? You didn't mention headphones or speakers. If you can set up outside the performance hall, you can (and would prefer to) use speakers. If you're in the room with the group, use headphones--the cleaner and flatter the better. Record some. Listen. Move the mics, reset levels. Record some more. Repeat until you're happy. This should be done during rehearsal. Then, when it's time for the real takes, just start the recorder and leave it. Don't touch it again (don't change levels, don't move mics) until you're finished. If you have enough tape, just let it run continuously until you're finished. That will make you and your performers less conscious of it. Finally, make your performers comfortable. They are the ones really doing all the work. You're just capturing the sound they make. Don't make a big deal of the gear and the recording. It's just another session. |
#5
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12 ft elevation and about 12 ft behind the conductor is a good starting
point.... no they should not be pointed at the floor..... move closer or use a more directional microphone if you have too much natural reverb from the hall.... move higher or point the microphones more to the back of the group if you want more sound from the instruments in the back.... lower for instruments in the front... if you have a soloist there are other considerations, to get the proper balance. It's best to have a listening room outside the hall.... at the very least set up near a door where you can at least listen with headphones outside the hall. If it's a live concert and you are set up in time to check levels during rehearsal set the levels to peak around -10db on the loudest part of the music. The SE300B is the model number for the amplifier section.... the capsules available are.. CK91 cardioid CK92 omnidirectional CK93 hypercardioid Try the following links for descriptions of the various stereo methods... The Josephson Site.... www.josephson.com click on the tech notes and links tab has links to many other good sources of information.... The Schoeps site.... http://www.schoeps.de/E-2004/appendix-tech.html The Danish Pro Audio site.... http://www.dpamicrophones.com/ click on the microphone university tab The Neumann site is also good... but multiple tabs to get to useful information... www.neumann.com or for specific info.... https://www.neumann.com/infopool/dow...i=docu0002.PDF https://www.neumann.com/infopool/dow...i=lect0026.PDF The above reading should keep you busy for a while.... although any of the above sources are a good enough starting point. Rgds: Eric www.webermusic.com CoNaN247 wrote in message ... Hello! I've never done anything like this so I don't have any experience exept recording some vocals. I'm a classic composer and at the radio station they gave me a big all in one box which includes: JBL EVO(?) mixer (there is also a lexicon mark on it) 16 ch I think Tascam DA 40 DAT recorder (i thing the stuff is allready connected the right way) There are also 2 AKG SE300B mic's and a big stand for them So now I have to record a string orchestra (like 25 ppl) playing my music (indoors). Can somebody PPPPLEASE give me an advice on what to do (for dummies). How to position the microphones on the stand? Do I need any other gear (mics, preamps...)? TIA!!! Conan ------- Appologies for my bad english |
#6
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On Wed, 29 Jun 2005 01:38:39 GMT, Carey Carlan
wrote: snipped but saved Outta be in the faq. Thanks, as always, Chris Hornbeck |
#7
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CoNaN247 wrote in message ... Hello! I've never done anything like this so I don't have any experience exept recording some vocals. I'm a classic composer and at the radio station they gave me a big all in one box which includes: JBL EVO(?) mixer (there is also a lexicon mark on it) 16 ch I think Tascam DA 40 DAT recorder (i thing the stuff is allready connected the right way) There are also 2 AKG SE300B mic's and a big stand for them So now I have to record a string orchestra (like 25 ppl) playing my music (indoors). Can somebody PPPPLEASE give me an advice on what to do (for dummies). How to position the microphones on the stand? Do I need any other gear (mics, preamps...)? TIA!!! Conan ------- Appologies for my bad english Your best bet is to employ a professional recordist, then watch and learn. Peter |
#8
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Carey Carlan wrote:
Cables into channels 1 and 2 of the mixer. Channel and main levels about half way up. Line out to line in on the DAT recorder. Probably not worth mentioning but.... If inputs 1 & 2 can be 'steered' between the left or right channels, make sure that one is set left and the other right, not both central. -- ~ Adrian Tuddenham ~ (Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply) www.poppyrecords.co.uk |
#9
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Carey Carlan wrote in
. 191: First a big THANK YOU for this great tips! CoNaN247 CoNaN247 wrote in : JBL EVO(?) mixer (there is also a lexicon mark on it) 16 ch I think Tascam DA 40 DAT recorder (i thing the stuff is allready connected the right way) There are also 2 AKG SE300B mic's and a big stand for them So now I have to record a string orchestra (like 25 ppl) playing my music (indoors). VERY short version: Go to a rehearsal and practice. If you are also directing the group, get someone to record for you. This time i'm there only because of being the composer. So eventually, I will have to go shake some hands after my comp is finished. I didn't mention there will be audience in the hall too. My friend is gonna help me but he has the same knowledge of this as I do. Place a pair of microphones up 8 to 10 feet high about 6 feet behind the conductor spread at about a 100 degree spread (open end of the V toward the group) with the business ends of the mics anywhere from 4" to 10" apart. Cables into channels 1 and 2 of the mixer. Channel and main levels about half way up. Line out to line in on the DAT recorder. Press Record. Clap your hands. Do the meters move? Good. You're ready. Longer version. The AKG SE300B can have different capsules that pick up with different directional patterns. We'll assume you have the standard pattern (cardioid). They pick up most everything in a hemisphere in front of them and less from behind. So is this also the best capsule (pattern) for this job? I will check the mics again... Can you get a microphone mount that lets you put two mics on a single stand? That makes placement easier. Otherwise, you'll need two stands that you can place very close together (big round bases won't make it). I think I can place them on the single stand. Placement requires listening. If the room is ugly, set up very close. If the room adds nice things to the sound back up a bit. If you get too far back things will sound fuzzy. Too close and you hear individual players instead of the group as a whole. Too low and the front players predominate. Too high and the sound gets undetailed. Put a finger in one ear and move forward and back (up and down if possible) listening intently to find the nicest sound in one ear. When you find it, put your mics there. You have to use the mixer or other mic preamps, because the DAT recorder doesn't take mic inputs. I don't know your particular EVO mixer, but it's from a line of PA gear, not designed for recording. It may be a bit noisy for this job, but it will work. If the channels have inserts, run your cables from there to the DAT recorder. The less mixer you travel through, the better. I don't know this "EVO" mixer also, but as you said, it's probably a PA line. I have a MACKIE 1402-VLZ PRO /w XDR extended range mic preamps (130db) at home, but I don't think this is better, (the one that they gave me looks... well... bigger), or is it??? The Mackie has inserts. Set levels on the mixer such that the peaks very seldom hit the red. You don't want to risk distortion on a classical recording. The DAT recorder will do just fine. Analog line out from the mixer to line in. Set levels such that average levels are about half way up and NEVER NEVER approach max. As long as the meters are moving some, levels will be fine. S/N ratio on the recorder will far exceed the noise floor in your room, in your mixer, and in your mics. How will you monitor the recording? You didn't mention headphones or speakers. If you can set up outside the performance hall, you can (and would prefer to) use speakers. If you're in the room with the group, use headphones--the cleaner and flatter the better. I'll have to use headphones. I have some above average line Sennheisers. Record some. Listen. Move the mics, reset levels. Record some more. Repeat until you're happy. This should be done during rehearsal. Then, when it's time for the real takes, just start the recorder and leave it. Don't touch it again (don't change levels, don't move mics) until you're finished. If you have enough tape, just let it run continuously until you're finished. That will make you and your performers less conscious of it. Finally, make your performers comfortable. They are the ones really doing all the work. You're just capturing the sound they make. Don't make a big deal of the gear and the recording. It's just another session. Thank you again for this valuable information. It should be in a FAQ as mentioned in one previous post! Conan |
#11
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"Eric K. Weber" wrote in
: 12 ft elevation and about 12 ft behind the conductor is a good starting point.... no they should not be pointed at the floor..... move closer or use a more directional microphone if you have too much natural reverb from the hall.... move higher or point the microphones more to the back of the group if you want more sound from the instruments in the back.... lower for instruments in the front... if you have a soloist there are other considerations, to get the proper balance. It's best to have a listening room outside the hall.... at the very least set up near a door where you can at least listen with headphones outside the hall. If it's a live concert and you are set up in time to check levels during rehearsal set the levels to peak around -10db on the loudest part of the music. The SE300B is the model number for the amplifier section.... the capsules available are.. CK91 cardioid CK92 omnidirectional CK93 hypercardioid Thanx for the links and info. I'll have to check up the mics (pattern) again... |
#12
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CoNaN247 wrote ...
(Adrian Tuddenham) wrote : Carey Carlan wrote: Cables into channels 1 and 2 of the mixer. Channel and main levels about half way up. Line out to line in on the DAT recorder. Probably not worth mentioning but.... If inputs 1 & 2 can be 'steered' between the left or right channels, make sure that one is set left and the other right, not both central. So, does this mean to PAN the CH 1 all the way to the left and CH2 to the right? Yes. Is this neccessary if I'm using inserts as outputs also? Maybe not, but it doesn't hurt and it could prevent you from getting a 2-channel mono recording. :-( |
#13
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CoNaN247 wrote ...
I don't know this "EVO" mixer also, but as you said, it's probably a PA line. I have a MACKIE 1402-VLZ PRO /w XDR extended range mic preamps (130db) at home, but I don't think this is better, (the one that they gave me looks... well... bigger), or is it??? The Mackie has inserts. I'd have far more confidence in the Mackie 1402-VLZ The JBL EVO may be OK when you want an all-in-one reinforcement system, but I'd be surprised if the mic preamps were up to even the level of the Mackie VLZs. Not to mention the complications of trying to avoid all the other junk (and lugging the big thing around!) |
#14
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CoNaN247 wrote in message
Any idea how to position the mics. This is an area where not everybody agrees, to say the least. Is pointing them 90 deg. against each other an option if they are on the same stand (like i read somewhere...)? That's called XY micing, and is more fully described on this web page (along with many other micing techniques): http://www.minidisc.org/mic_setups.html These are the most popular micing techniques in no particular order except as stated. (1) X-Y, IMO *the* one-size-fits-all micing technique. (2) Spaced mics - probably the second most popular method. (3) ORTF (4) Close micing - what you do when you have lots of mics, you want maximum flexibility at mixdown time, and what you do if you want to control the degree to which the room affects overall sound quality. I routinely make recordings using 1,2, and 4 concurrently. Yeah, multitracking and DAW! And if you suspend them above the front of the stage, in which direction to you orient them then (or do you just leave them hanging downwards)? You usually point the mics at the sound source. You need to be aware that there are two general kinds of mics - end address and side address. You point the end address mic in the preferred acoustical direction, while you point the active side of the side-address mic in the preferred acoustical direction. I said dummies , so what's O.R.T.F.? http://homepage.ntlworld.com/chris.burmajster/O.htm gives a nice definition, some history, and a picture. |
#15
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CoNaN247 CoNaN247 wrote in
: The AKG SE300B can have different capsules that pick up with different directional patterns. We'll assume you have the standard pattern (cardioid). They pick up most everything in a hemisphere in front of them and less from behind. So is this also the best capsule (pattern) for this job? I will check the mics again... There is no 'best' without knowing the room. As a rule of thumb, the better the room, the wider the pattern. Omnis sound great when the room is great. Hypercardioids fend off a world of noise and reflections. Cardioids are the popular compromise. They'll do fine. I don't know this "EVO" mixer also, but as you said, it's probably a PA line. I have a MACKIE 1402-VLZ PRO /w XDR extended range mic preamps (130db) at home, but I don't think this is better, (the one that they gave me looks... well... bigger), or is it??? The Mackie has inserts. Use the Mackie. The preamps are about the best part of that particular mixer. Use the inserts. I've recorded many successful concerts with just that machine. Thank you again for this valuable information. You're quite welcome. Without knowing more, this is how I'd start. Remember, there are many, many ways to do this--many choices to be made. The final arbiter are your own ears. Use them well. |
#16
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One more note. Set everything up and try it before the big day. Make sure
you have all the right cables and other parts and know where they all go. |
#17
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In article CoNaN247 CoNaN247 writes: I think I can place them on the single stand. Most "found" mic stands don't go nearly high enough to record an orchestra at a distance. And if you put both mics on a single stand, you're doubling the weight on the end of a long lever. You need to think this out pretty carefully before you set up for the gig. have a MACKIE 1402-VLZ PRO /w XDR extended range mic preamps (130db) at home, but I don't think this is better, (the one that they gave me looks... well... bigger) Use your Mackie rather than an unknown. It's just fine for this sort of application. -- I'm really Mike Rivers ) However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over, lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo |
#18
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In article CoNaN247 CoNaN247 writes: So, does this mean to PAN the CH 1 all the way to the left and CH2 to the right? Is this neccessary if I'm using inserts as outputs also? The inserts will send the direct signal (before the Pan control) to the recorder. If you plug headphones into the recorder for monitoring, you'll hear left and right, but if you plug your headphones into the mixer, you'll need to set the pans. It's a good idea to pan the mics full left and right on the mixer whether you're using the mixer's outputs (main or headphones) or not. That way, the mixer's meters will show you what's happening on each channel independently. If one channel goes away or develops some hum (the meter reads up scale when the orchestra stops playing) you might see it before you can put the headphones on and hear it. -- I'm really Mike Rivers ) However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over, lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo |
#19
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As my profession is composing, conducting and teaching harmony at the Academy of
music (and thats about all I'll ever do professionally in my life) there is only one better advice you could give me: employ a professional recordist, then DON'T watch, DON'T learn and DO what you do best... But this time is a special situation and I'll just jump into it... Maybe I'll like it so much I'll start recording string quartets in my living room ) "Peter Hill" wrote in : Your best bet is to employ a professional recordist, then watch and learn. Peter |
#21
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Carey Carlan wrote:
CoNaN247 CoNaN247 wrote The AKG SE300B can have different capsules that pick up with different directional patterns. We'll assume you have the standard pattern (cardioid). They pick up most everything in a hemisphere in front of them and less from behind. So is this also the best capsule (pattern) for this job? I will check the mics again... There is no 'best' without knowing the room. As a rule of thumb, the better the room, the wider the pattern. Omnis sound great when the room is great. Hypercardioids fend off a world of noise and reflections. Cardioids are the popular compromise. They'll do fine. My basic feeling is that if you don't have any experience, you will probably have better luck with cardioids in ORTF than with any other stereo method. I think there is less to foul up. I'm not saying that ORTF is the best possible method in any particular situation, just that it is harder to shoot your self in the foot with it. www.josephson.com has an introduction to stereophony that is worth reading, but you will learn more by recording a rehearsal, moving the microphones around, and listening to the playback on speakers, than you will ever learn from reading descriptions. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#22
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Carey Carlan wrote in
. 191: One more note. Set everything up and try it before the big day. Make sure you have all the right cables and other parts and know where they all go. Oh, I'll try my setup on rehersals... and not just once Thank you for the tips! Conan |
#23
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In article CoNaN247 CoNaN247 writes: I like the idea of using inserts for output The "plug halfway in" works but it's not very robust. If you really want to be safe, have someone make you a pair of "Insert Output cables" with TRS plugs on the console end, with the tip and ring contacts connected together. This will allow you insert the plug all the way and still get signal through the mixer. You can proably get an engineer at the station to make those cables for you. So if I got this right: I connect mics to XLR mic inputs on Mackie, then the signal passes THROUGH mic preamp, bypasses all the other stuff an goes out on insert jacks. Right. Q: what cables are used to connect Mackie inserts to Tascam DA40. This is an unbalanced connection, right? The insert output is unbalanced. I believe a DA-40 has RCA inputs for an unbalanced connection, so you'd need (sleazy) 1/4" unbalanced to RCA cables, or (reliable) cables as I described above with RCA plugs on the recorder end. -- I'm really Mike Rivers ) However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over, lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo |
#24
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Carey Carlan wrote:
There is no 'best' without knowing the room. As a rule of thumb, the better the room, the wider the pattern. Omnis sound great when the room is great. Hypercardioids fend off a world of noise and reflections. Cardioids are the popular compromise. They'll do fine. Not for beginners, so perhaps OT for this thread... ...but the much-neglected crossed ribbons can sometimes knock out unwanted boomy acoustics - and the rear lobes can be blocked with a (not too close) screen if they might pick up something unwanted. I once had to record a piano in a church and make it sound like a drawing room, crossed ribbons worked. -- ~ Adrian Tuddenham ~ (Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply) www.poppyrecords.co.uk |
#25
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CoNaN247 CoNaN247 wrote in
: But this time is a special situation and I'll just jump into it... Maybe I'll like it so much I'll start recording string quartets in my living room ) There's always that danger... |
#26
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CoNaN247 wrote in message ... Thank you for the answer! Any idea how to position the mics. Is poiting them 90 deg. against each other an option if they are on the same stand (like i read somewhere...)? And if you suspend them above the front of the stage, in which direction to you orient them then (or do you just leave them hanging downwards)? Thanks! No. O.R.T.F. configuration dictates that the mics are at 110º angles at 17cm spacing. However, there is no one correct way to do it. Only an infinite number of ways to get slightly different results. A 90º angle will work, but depending on the cardioides used, it might overlap and lose some channel separation. Conan I said dummies , so what's O.R.T.F.? It stands for "Office de Radiodiffusion Télévision Française" the agency in French broadcasting that developed the miking technique of that name. A sample of a recording using this configuration that I made during a rehearsal of a local orchestra can be heard he www.tinyurl.com/cq7ng -- Best Regards, Mark A. Weiss, P.E. www.mwcomms.com - |
#27
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I think I can place them on the single stand. I would recommend a lighting stand that telescopes to 11' and with a 5/8" thread adapter to accept your standard mic mounts. Lighting stands are sturdy and hard to tip over, and they get above the conductor's field of vision, out of the way. Best option when you can't fly the mics from above. -- Best Regards, Mark A. Weiss, P.E. www.mwcomms.com - |
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