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Default Audio and "Special Problems"

In article , KH
wrote:

On 9/28/2013 1:30 PM, Audio_Empire wrote:
In article ,
Andrew Haley wrote:

snip
Double-blind testing works for everything else, as far as I know. I'm
not going to accept any special pleading (sans really good evidence)
that it may not be applicable to audio. How would you prove such a
thing, anyway?


I don't pretend to know. How do you prove that it DOES work for audio?
Since it usually returns a null result, I'd say such overwhelmingly
one-sided
results indicates one of two things: either everything does sound the
same (which my experience tells me is extremely unlikely), or DBTs aren't
good at uncovering differences in audio gear unless they are
extremely gross differences. We certainly know which of those two
outcomes the "strict objectivists" believe in, but how do we prove which
is the real answer?


Well, you start out by demonstrating that there are objectively
verifiable differences between units - through measurement - that at
least approach the demonstrated lower threshold of human hearing.


That would help. But you can't measure everything that could affect
audio performance. How do you measure, for instance, a DAC's ability
to image well? How can you measure bass performance that MIGHT be
affected by such things as impedance match to downstream (or perhaps
even upstream) components?

If all measured artifacts or differences are, say -110db down, then a
null DBT *is* expected, and a subjectively "verified" audible difference
is clearly suspect.


But not all differences heard in listening are a result of a frequency
response reading or a S/N ratio reading. What is the "threshold of
hearing", for instance, for phase anomalies which might affect image
specificity? What is the "threshold of hearing" for jitter? How does
that affect what the listener hears?
How do you interpret what you observe on an oscilloscope about the
ringing wer DAC digital filters can do) to affect the sound - if at
all? The problem with your solution is that not everything seems to be
easily quantifiable and many of the things that are quantifiable are
not easily correlate-able to what one hears (in either a positive or a
negative sense). Also, many things that people used to put a lot of
stock in (like THD in amplifiers) turn out to be not very important,
because it seems that even though a THD figure on an amplifier of more
than 1% looks bad on paper, the ear is not really all that sensitive
to it. OTOH, things like crossover notch distortion, and all types of
Intermodulation distortion in amplifying devices are very noticeable,
even to people who are just casual l isteners. But I digress. The
point is that "the threshold of hearing" is only helpful or
establishing the audibility or inaudibility of SOME performance
parameters, but not ALL by a long shot.
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Default Audio and "Special Problems"

In article ,
ScottW wrote:
On Friday, September 27, 2013 4:04:33 PM UTC-7, Audio_Empire wrote:


snip

http://www.jensen-transformers.com/an/an004.pdf

Bottom line. Make sure your cables have real ground wires....not just foil
shield drains....or better yet, tie all your chassis grounds together in a
star configuration with some lamp cord.

ScottW


OK, Scott. That can affect noise in some cases, I agree. But that has to be a
system-wide solution, and would not be noticed by just swapping out, say,
one interconnect for another.
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In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

"Audio_Empire" wrote in message
...

Obviously, it easier to prove that subjectivists can hear no differences
in a properly set-up DBT than it is to prove that objectivists CAN hear
differences when said objectivists DON'T WANT TO hear differences.


This argument fails because to be true, it demands that no person with good
will and basic honesty has ever done an audio DBT.


It doesn't have to have happened. It just has to be a possibility.

Nothing prevents so-called subjectivists from doing DBTs .I it were just a
matter of having a subjectivist do a DBT in order to obtain positive
results, then such a thing would have had to happen at last once in the past
30 or more years.


The problem here is that many subjectivists don't believe that DBTs are
very good at picking-out subtle, but important (to a dyed-in-the-wool-
audiophile) differences between audio components.

In fact many so-called subjectivists have participated in DBTs and they
obtained the same results as so-called objectivists. DBTs have a proven
track record of converting so-called subjectivists into objectivists.


Didn't convert me, and I've been privy to a number of ad hoc and formal DBTs.
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"Audio_Empire" wrote in message
...

In article , KH


Well, you start out by demonstrating that there are objectively
verifiable differences between units - through measurement - that at
least approach the demonstrated lower threshold of human hearing.


Agreed.

That would help. But you can't measure everything that could affect audio
performance.


Except you can. It's not 1955 or 1965. Ever since the late 1960s audio
measurement technology has evolved rapidly yet most audiophiles are unaware
the updates which I will briefly cover below. Ever since the 1980s our
understanding of audio perception has evolved rapidly but again most
audiophiles are unaware of the updates involved. The latter are probably
better understood by young people because among other things they relate to
why perceptual coding works as well as it does. But they have broad
relevance to our understanding of the significance of technical performance
to listening enjoyment and this does not seem to be understood as well.

Audio signals have only 2 dimensions per channel. Therefore everything that
can go wrong with them can be quantified with a limited number of variables.

These 3 Error Variables a

(1) Linear distortion (phase and frequency response errors)
(2) Nonlinear distortion (amplitude and time base errors), measured as
harmonic distortion, intermodulation distortion, and frequency or phase
distortion AKA jitter.
(3) and noise or deterministic and random or pseudo random interfering
signals.

Believe it or not, that is it!

How do you measure, for instance, a DAC's ability to image well?


First off, you look at the problem from the other way. The question you ask
can be restated as: "What cases a DAC to image poorly?"

The answer is some combination of the 3 Error Variables stated above.

How can you measure bass performance that MIGHT be
affected by such things as impedance match to downstream (or perhaps
even upstream) components?


The answer is some combination of the 3 Error Variables stated above.
If all measured artifacts or differences are, say -110db down, then a
null DBT *is* expected, and a subjectively "verified" audible difference
is clearly suspect.


But not all differences heard in listening are a result of a frequency
response reading or a S/N ratio reading.


Of course, I have pointed out that there are 3 error variables, only 2 of
which are related to frequency response (linear distortion) and noise. The
third error variable that needs to be considered as well is nonlinear
distortion.


What is the "threshold of
hearing", for instance, for phase anomalies which might affect image
specificity?


Phase anomalies are part of linear distortion.

What is the "threshold of hearing" for jitter?


It is a known quantity which is an amplitude that depends on the frequency
and amplitude of the desired signal and the frequency and amplitude of the
modulating signal which are usually different frequencies but don't have to
be.

How does that affect what the listener hears?


The listener reliably senses a difference between the distorted signal and a
reference undistorted signal. It really does not matter how he hears it. The
important thing is that he is reliably able to detect it.

How do you interpret what you observe on an oscilloscope about the
ringing which DAC digital filters can do) to affect the sound - if at
all?


Ringing is a consequence of linear distortion.

The problem with your solution is that not everything seems to be
easily quantifiable and many of the things that are quantifiable are
not easily correlate-able to what one hears (in either a positive or a
negative sense).


That would appear to be a misapprehension based on a lack of knowledge of
the principles of modern signals analysis and psychoacoustics. The questions
that I answered would not be asked by a person who was up to date in these
important fields that have been largely developed from the 1970s to the
1990s.

Also, many things that people used to put a lot of
stock in (like THD in amplifiers) turn out to be not very important,


Harmonic distortion is not as important as it used to be because modern
equipment often has vanishing amount of it. This was not always so.

because it seems that even though a THD figure on an amplifier of more
than 1% looks bad on paper, the ear is not really all that sensitive
to it.


Depending on the details of the harmonic distortion (order or nonlinearity,
amount and signal frequency involved) harmonic distortion can be reliably
detected below 0.1%, but not below 0.01%. There is a psychoacoustic reason
for this, but it is beyond the scope of this brief article.

OTOH, things like crossover notch distortion, and all types of
Intermodulation distortion in amplifying devices are very noticeable,


Crossover distortion is just another kind of nonlinear distortion. If you
understand the basic mathematics of nonlinear distortion you know that any
nonlinearity that causes IM also causes Harmonic Distortion.

The point is that "the threshold of hearing" is only helpful or
establishing the audibility or inaudibility of SOME performance
parameters, but not ALL by a long shot.


That would appear to be yet another misapprehension based on a lack of
knowledge of the principles of modern signals analysis and psychoacoustics.

If one wishes to make authoritative-sounding statements about audio, it
helps to have kept up with audio's evolving technology.


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Default Audio and "Special Problems"

On 10/3/2013 5:38 AM, ScottW wrote:
On Monday, September 30, 2013 3:53:47 PM UTC-7, Audio_Empire wrote:
In article , KH

The point is that "the threshold of hearing" is only helpful or
establishing the audibility or inaudibility of SOME performance
parameters, but not ALL by a long shot.


You've only just begun to explore the level of difficulty of this approach.
Throw in establishing threshold under various masking stimuli...such as music.


Masking makes the difference *harder* to hear, not easier.

Then try to consider multi-parameter interaction on hearing threshold and quickly the problem becomes impossible to establish any correlation to actual listening.

Far easier to toss the "can't hear a difference sighted" subjects from the pool.



If they hear no difference sighted, that could be bias as well, or they
may not be suitable. That's true. If you really want to challenge the
efficacy of DBT's, then taking subjects that *reliably* hear a
difference between A and B, a difference that engineering and physics
says should not be acoustically distinguishable, and subjecting them to
a DBT where *ALL* test parameters are *exactly* the same with the
exception of blinding.

That is *all* that is necessary to demonstrate that sighted listening is
unreliable. You can argue DBT methodology, but the study above differs
only by blinding so there's no methodological uncertainties involved.

Keith


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In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

"Audio_Empire" wrote in message=20
...
=20
In article , KH

=20
Well, you start out by demonstrating that there are objectively
verifiable differences between units - through measurement - that at
least approach the demonstrated lower threshold of human hearing.

=20
Agreed.
=20
That would help. But you can't measure everything that could affect aud=

io=20
performance.

=20
Except you can. It's not 1955 or 1965. Ever since the late 1960s audio=20
measurement technology has evolved rapidly yet most audiophiles are unawa=

re=20
the updates which I will briefly cover below. Ever since the 1980s our=20
understanding of audio perception has evolved rapidly but again most=20
audiophiles are unaware of the updates involved. The latter are probably=

=20
better understood by young people because among other things they relate =

to=20
why perceptual coding works as well as it does. But they have broad=20
relevance to our understanding of the significance of technical performan=

ce=20
to listening enjoyment and this does not seem to be understood as well.
=20
Audio signals have only 2 dimensions per channel. Therefore everything t=

hat=20
can go wrong with them can be quantified with a limited number of variabl=

es.
=20
These 3 Error Variables a
=20
(1) Linear distortion (phase and frequency response errors)
(2) Nonlinear distortion (amplitude and time base errors), measured as=20
harmonic distortion, intermodulation distortion, and frequency or phase=

=20
distortion AKA jitter.
(3) and noise or deterministic and random or pseudo random interfering=20
signals.


Believe it or not, that is it!


I believe it. I've seen these parameters outlined before, I didn't just fal=
l off the audio milk train, you know. The point is, they don't mean much to=
the average audio enthusiasts though. Again it's not so much that these te=
sts exist, as it is that they aren't readily available, easily understandab=
le, or easily correlated to what people hear. When I said "But you can't me=
asure everything that could affect audio performance." I was responding to =
Keith Hughes and the other audio enthusiasts who post here and who don't h=
ave access to either the equipment or the methodologies needed to measure t=
hese three major error variable categories (or their sub-categories) and m=
ost likely wouldn't understand how these parameters affect what they hear, =
even if they did. So, in the hobby world, we're back to square one which m=
eans our ears.=20

How do you measure, for instance, a DAC's ability to image well?

=20
First off, you look at the problem from the other way. The question you a=

sk=20
can be restated as: "What causes a DAC to image poorly?"


I don't pretend to know for sure. I don't work in the field of digital data=
quantization. I have some textbooks on the subject, but they=20
don't cover stereo imaging of a digital to analog converter. I suspect that=
it has to do how the converter circuits are used to recover the left
and right channels, as I have noticed that Stereo DACs seem to image
better than do single switched mono DACs, and that differential DACs seem t=
o image best of all. But hell, I don't even know that for sure. From observ=
ation, it just SEEMS that way. But we all know the pitfalls' of that kind o=
f assumption.=20
=20
The answer is some combination of the 3 Error Variables stated above.


Sure, but again, that's not helpful to the average enthusiast. He can't mea=
sure it, he won't hear it in a DBT, and to my knowledge, no DAC manufacture=
r advertises: "If you value soundstage presentation and image specificity,=
don't buy our products, because they aren't good at that".=20
=20
How can you measure bass performance that MIGHT be
affected by such things as impedance match to downstream (or perhaps
even upstream) components?

=20
The answer is some combination of the 3 Error Variables stated above.
If all measured artifacts or differences are, say -110db down, then a
null DBT *is* expected, and a subjectively "verified" audible differen=

ce
is clearly suspect.


These answers aren't helpful in the least, Mr. Kruger. Because there is not=
hing about this subject that the average listener can wrap his head around,=
and allow him to make an informed selection. Unfortunately, audio manufact=
urers know this and it allows them to make extremely (and unnecessarily) ex=
pensive components that probably sound no different from other examples of =
the same types of components that cost far less.=20
=20
But not all differences heard in listening are a result of a frequency
response reading or a S/N ratio reading.

=20
Of course, I have pointed out that there are 3 error variables, only 2 of=

=20
which are related to frequency response (linear distortion) and noise. Th=

e=20
third error variable that needs to be considered as well is nonlinear=20
distortion.


Agreed, but again, this is just an academic exercise to most enthusiasts. T=
hey don't have a lab fill of state of the art test equipment or the enginee=
ring savvy to understand what it all means. Most audio enthusiasts just wa=
nt the best sound for their money, and the only tools really available to t=
hem are their own senses. =20
=20
=20
What is the "threshold of
hearing", for instance, for phase anomalies which might affect image
specificity?

=20
Phase anomalies are part of linear distortion.


Doesn't answer the question I asked for a quantification - but don't bother=
, it was a rhetorical question anyway.
=20
What is the "threshold of hearing" for jitter?

=20
It is a known quantity which is an amplitude that depends on the frequenc=

y=20
and amplitude of the desired signal and the frequency and amplitude of th=

e=20
modulating signal which are usually different frequencies but don't have =

to=20
be.


Again it was rhetorical and meant to show that these numbers have little me=
aning to the average audio enthusiast.=20

How does that affect what the listener hears?

=20
The listener reliably senses a difference between the distorted signal an=

d a=20
reference undistorted signal. It really does not matter how he hears it. =

The=20
important thing is that he is reliably able to detect it.


How do you interpret what you observe on an oscilloscope about the=20
ringing which DAC digital filters can do) to affect the sound - if at=

=20
all?

=20
Ringing is a consequence of linear distortion.


Again, not the question, but also again, more or less rhetorical.=20

The problem with your solution is that not everything seems to be
easily quantifiable and many of the things that are quantifiable are
not easily correlate-able to what one hears (in either a positive or a
negative sense).

=20
That would appear to be a misapprehension based on a lack of knowledge of=

=20
the principles of modern signals analysis and psychoacoustics. The questi=

ons=20
that I answered would not be asked by a person who was up to date in thes=

e=20
important fields that have been largely developed from the 1970s to the=

=20
1990s.


No, it's not, it's a real world question valid to those who have no way of =
accessing modern signal analysis methodologies or the knowledge needed to u=
nderstand or correlate them. In other words, virtually the=20
entire audio hobby community.=20

Also, many things that people used to put a lot of
stock in (like THD in amplifiers) turn out to be not very important,

=20
Harmonic distortion is not as important as it used to be because modern=

=20
equipment often has vanishing amount of it. This was not always so.
=20
because it seems that even though a THD figure on an amplifier of more
than 1% looks bad on paper, the ear is not really all that sensitive
to it.

=20
Depending on the details of the harmonic distortion (order or nonlinearit=

y,=20
amount and signal frequency involved) harmonic distortion can be reliably=

=20
detected below 0.1%, but not below 0.01%. There is a psychoacoustic reaso=

n=20
for this, but it is beyond the scope of this brief article.


Actually I've seen amplifiers with almost unbelievably high levels of THD (=
like 1%) even at relatively low power levels (as opposed to near clippin=
g) that no one could hear when the amp was playing music. One French amp I =
remember was a 70 Watt/channel amp that had 2.5% THD at 10 Watts! It sound=
ed fine and for a while, was considered (by TAS) one of the best sounding a=
nd most musical (and expensive) amps on the market. Yet a 1st generation Dy=
naco ST-120 had a tiny amount of crossover distortion at low power levels a=
nd sounded just dreadful. Dyna fixed it later, And I "fixed" mine by simply=
re-biasing the drivers further into class A. (not a good fix, BTW. The cro=
ssover notch was gone but the driver transistors started blowing often - ta=
king the 2N3055 output devices with them).=20

OTOH, things like crossover notch distortion, and all types of=20
Intermodulation distortion in amplifying devices are very noticeable,

=20
Crossover distortion is just another kind of nonlinear distortion.=20


Championing the obvious, now , are we?

If you understand the basic mathematics of nonlinear distortion you know =

that any=20
nonlinearity that causes IM also causes Harmonic Distortion.


Of course it does.=20
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"Audio_Empire" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

Audio signals have only 2 dimensions per channel. Therefore everything
that
can go wrong with them can be quantified with a limited number of
variables.


These 3 Error Variables a


(1) Linear distortion (phase and frequency response errors)
(2) Nonlinear distortion (amplitude and time base errors), measured as
harmonic distortion, intermodulation distortion, and frequency or phase
distortion AKA jitter.
(3) and noise or deterministic and random or pseudo random interfering
signals.


Believe it or not, that is it!


The point is, they don't mean much to the average audio enthusiasts though.


I have a limited platform from which to educate audio enthusiasts. I do what
I can.

Again it's not so much that these tests exist, as it is that they aren't
readily available, easily understandable, or easily correlated to what
people hear.


Every one of the 3 items can be measured to well below the thresholds of
audiblity using time-honored testing methodogies going back 30-50 years of
more. Most audiophiles have the hardware and can freely download software
platforms for measuring them. How available do they need to be?

When I said "But you can't measure everything that could affect audio
performance." I was responding to Keith Hughes and the other audio
enthusiasts who post here and who don't have access to either the
equipment or the
methodologies needed to measure these three major error variable
categories (or their sub-categories)


I think they do. Got a modern PC with an audio interface?

and most likely wouldn't understand how these parameters affect what they
hear, even if they did.


In these days of university level courses being freely available on the web,
any ignorance is the fault of the ignorant.

So, in the hobby world, we're back to square one which means our ears.


How do you measure, for instance, a DAC's ability to image well?


First off, you look at the problem from the other way. The question you
ask
can be restated as: "What causes a DAC to image poorly?"


I don't pretend to know for sure.


I dunno. Kevin gave you the right answer and you seem to be less than fully
cognizant of it:

KH wrote:

"If all measured artifacts or differences are, say -110db down, then a
null DBT *is* expected, and a subjectively "verified" audible difference
is clearly suspect."

Of course he's being wildly optimistic about the hearing threshold of the
human ears. Reality is more like 80 dB at the best and 60 dB more typical.

Audiophiles by the 100s are overcoming the most difficult measurment hurdles
being acoustic measurements.




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On 10/3/2013 7:40 PM, Audio_Empire wrote:
In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

"Audio_Empire" wrote in message
...

In article , KH


Well, you start out by demonstrating that there are objectively
verifiable differences between units - through measurement - that at
least approach the demonstrated lower threshold of human hearing.


Agreed.

That would help. But you can't measure everything that could affect audio
performance.


Except you can. It's not 1955 or 1965. Ever since the late 1960s audio
measurement technology has evolved rapidly yet most audiophiles are unaware
the updates which I will briefly cover below. Ever since the 1980s our
understanding of audio perception has evolved rapidly but again most
audiophiles are unaware of the updates involved. The latter are probably
better understood by young people because among other things they relate to
why perceptual coding works as well as it does. But they have broad
relevance to our understanding of the significance of technical performance
to listening enjoyment and this does not seem to be understood as well.

Audio signals have only 2 dimensions per channel. Therefore everything that
can go wrong with them can be quantified with a limited number of variables.

These 3 Error Variables a

(1) Linear distortion (phase and frequency response errors)
(2) Nonlinear distortion (amplitude and time base errors), measured as
harmonic distortion, intermodulation distortion, and frequency or phase
distortion AKA jitter.
(3) and noise or deterministic and random or pseudo random interfering
signals.


Believe it or not, that is it!


I believe it. I've seen these parameters outlined before, I didn't just fall off the audio milk train, you know. The point is, they don't mean much to the average audio enthusiasts though. Again it's not so much that these tests exist, as it is that they aren't readily available, easily understandable, or easily correlated to what people hear. When I said "But you can't measure everything that could affect audio performance." I was responding to Keith Hughes and the other audio enthusiasts who post here and who don't have access to either the equipment or the methodologies needed to measure these three major error variable categories (or their sub-categories) and most likely wouldn't understand how these parameters affect what they hear, even if they did. So, in the hobby world, we're back to square one which means our ears.


The point, though, is that it would be relatively easy to measure two
devices, such as two DACs for which sighted "differences" have been
found, show that all of these three types of distortion are, say 120db
down, and show that those same listeners cannot distinguish between them
under blinded conditions.

Now, is this a useful thing for the "average audiophile"? I would argue
yes. Not in the sense that one would want to do this type of testing
for every device prior to purchase, but to understand that sighted bias
can be very powerful, and cannot be "put aside" as some like to believe.
This is useful to the average Joe when he's looking at two or three
components in a shop at X, 3X and 13X price ranges - components that
have no technical reason to sound different, and yet do when demo'd in
the store.

Keith


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On 10/4/2013 8:12 AM, Arny Krueger wrote:
"Audio_Empire" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:


snip

I dunno. Kevin gave you the right answer and you seem to be less than fully
cognizant of it:

KH wrote:

"If all measured artifacts or differences are, say -110db down, then a
null DBT *is* expected, and a subjectively "verified" audible difference
is clearly suspect."

Of course he's being wildly optimistic about the hearing threshold of the
human ears. Reality is more like 80 dB at the best and 60 dB more typical.


Not being optimistic. Just pragmatic. At -110db, even the most rabid
naysayer would have to admit his golden ears aren't that good.

Keith

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"KH" wrote in message
...
On 10/4/2013 8:12 AM, Arny Krueger wrote:
"Audio_Empire" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:


snip

I dunno. Kevin gave you the right answer and you seem to be less than
fully
cognizant of it:

KH wrote:

"If all measured artifacts or differences are, say -110db down, then a
null DBT *is* expected, and a subjectively "verified" audible difference
is clearly suspect."

Of course he's being wildly optimistic about the hearing threshold of the
human ears. Reality is more like 80 dB at the best and 60 dB more
typical.


Not being optimistic. Just pragmatic. At -110db, even the most rabid
naysayer would have to admit his golden ears aren't that good.


I feel that way about the -100 dB number, which BTW is reflected in ITU
Recommendation BS 1116. It's definately an overkill number just like 44.1
KHz and 16 bits are overkill sampling for digital music.




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On 10/4/2013 8:58 AM, ScottW wrote:
On Thursday, October 3, 2013 7:37:50 PM UTC-7, KH wrote:
On 10/3/2013 5:38 AM, ScottW wrote:

On Monday, September 30, 2013 3:53:47 PM UTC-7, Audio_Empire wrote:


In article , KH




The point is that "the threshold of hearing" is only helpful or


establishing the audibility or inaudibility of SOME performance


parameters, but not ALL by a long shot.




You've only just begun to explore the level of difficulty of this approach.


Throw in establishing threshold under various masking stimuli...such as music.




Masking makes the difference *harder* to hear, not easier.


Exactly...it impacts the threshold. We'll establish a low threshold without it and then complain that music provides null results and conclude DBTs invalid as a concept. Go figure.


But *I* was discussing subjects that purportedly *could* hear a
difference sighted.




Then try to consider multi-parameter interaction on hearing threshold and quickly the problem becomes impossible to establish any correlation to actual listening.




Far easier to toss the "can't hear a difference sighted" subjects from the pool.




If they hear no difference sighted, that could be bias as well,


Great...a biased test subject whose bias is difficult to control for.
Why would you want them in the pool of test subjects? Makes no sense.


You know, it's pretty silly to try create disagreement by selectively
parsing a reply:


or they
may not be suitable. That's true.


What did you *think* "that's true" meant? My next paragraph stipulates
that you need test only listeners that *do* hear a sighted difference.

If you really want to challenge the
efficacy of DBT's, then taking subjects that *reliably* hear a
difference between A and B, a difference that engineering and physics
says should not be acoustically distinguishable, and subjecting them to
a DBT where *ALL* test parameters are *exactly* the same with the
exception of blinding.

That is *all* that is necessary to demonstrate that sighted listening is
unreliable.


Thriller....and all along I thought the question was controlling for same bias to assure blind tests were not corrupt. Silly me.


Can't argue with your last sentence. If physics says there should be no
audible difference between A and B, sighted listeners hear a difference,
and blinded they cannot, does that mean DBT's work in all situations
under all conditions? No it doesn't, but that's of precisely zero
concern. It shows it works in the context in which it is of value.

You're ignoring the obvious premise of using a DBT - if no difference is
heard sighted, why would you *need* a DBT? You wouldn't. If the
measured performance of two items (e.g., SET vs ss amp, speakers, etc.)
is well above, the threshold of hearing, then the comparison is one of
preference, and again a DBT is not needed.


You can argue DBT methodology, but the study above differs
only by blinding so there's no methodological uncertainties involved.


I think we're on the same page if not communicating too well .
I don't argue about DBT methodology with the exception of the valid complaint that same bias subjects can corrupt a test.


But ALL subjects are biased, that's the purpose of blinding. Obviously,
if a subject hears no difference sighted, he's not an appropriate
subject for a DBT of that particular comparison. Not in the context in
which an average audiophile would value use of a DBT.

Ferstler admitted doing exactly this on RAO. He couldn't hear a difference so he just provided random responses. Easiest way to prevent this is to exclude him and people like him who don't hear a difference.


Yes. That has been my point all along. *Why* they hear no difference
doesn't matter.

Keith

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"ScottW" wrote in message
...

On Thursday, October 3, 2013 7:40:54 PM UTC-7, Audio_Empire wrote:
In article ,

"Arny Krueger" wrote:


The answer is some combination of the 3 Error Variables stated above.


Sure, but again, that's not helpful to the average enthusiast.


Frankly the details of the discussion don't need to be helpful to typical
enthusiasts. You don't need to know all of the details to make reasonble
purchase and operational decisions.

Just the basic 80 dB guideline is sufficient to separate the liars from
those who tell the truth.

It's not helpful to a test engineer either. He lists 3 classes of
parameter variation some of which still have nearly infinite possible
conditions.


Any test engineer knows that the parameters in analog systems can always
assume a fully infinite number of values and know that that isn't a
stumbling block at all.

It 's too broad a brush in an effort to oversimplify.


So Scott, when did you accumulate the engineering credentials that qualify
you to pass judgment on things like this that you seem to admit you can't
understand?

Bottom line...it's extremely difficult to establish the thresholds of
human hearing for all possible conditions of these parameters.


Precise thresholds perhaps, but that is not needed. Again, when high end
reviewers blithely claim to hear artifacts that are more than 130 dB down
(e.g. certain ESS DACs) you can easily apply even the 110 dB guideline and
know what is going on.

If it was so easy it would have been done conclusively long ago.


It was, it is just that a few people never understood the memo. Denial is
more than just a river in Egypt.

Also, people who claim superiority for tubed electronics whose artifacts are
as little as 20 dB down have their credibility particularly challenged.



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In article , KH
wrote:

On 10/3/2013 7:40 PM, Audio_Empire wrote:
In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

"Audio_Empire" wrote in message
...

In article , KH

Well, you start out by demonstrating that there are objectively
verifiable differences between units - through measurement - that at
least approach the demonstrated lower threshold of human hearing.

Agreed.

That would help. But you can't measure everything that could affect audio
performance.

Except you can. It's not 1955 or 1965. Ever since the late 1960s audio
measurement technology has evolved rapidly yet most audiophiles are
unaware
the updates which I will briefly cover below. Ever since the 1980s our
understanding of audio perception has evolved rapidly but again most
audiophiles are unaware of the updates involved. The latter are probably
better understood by young people because among other things they relate
to
why perceptual coding works as well as it does. But they have broad
relevance to our understanding of the significance of technical
performance
to listening enjoyment and this does not seem to be understood as well.

Audio signals have only 2 dimensions per channel. Therefore everything
that
can go wrong with them can be quantified with a limited number of
variables.

These 3 Error Variables a

(1) Linear distortion (phase and frequency response errors)
(2) Nonlinear distortion (amplitude and time base errors), measured as
harmonic distortion, intermodulation distortion, and frequency or phase
distortion AKA jitter.
(3) and noise or deterministic and random or pseudo random interfering
signals.


Believe it or not, that is it!


I believe it. I've seen these parameters outlined before, I didn't just
fall off the audio milk train, you know. The point is, they don't mean much
to the average audio enthusiasts though. Again it's not so much that these
tests exist, as it is that they aren't readily available, easily
understandable, or easily correlated to what people hear. When I said "But
you can't measure everything that could affect audio performance." I was
responding to Keith Hughes and the other audio enthusiasts who post here
and who don't have access to either the equipment or the methodologies
needed to measure these three major error variable categories (or their
sub-categories) and most likely wouldn't understand how these parameters
affect what they hear, even if they did. So, in the hobby world, we're
back to square one which means our ears.


The point, though, is that it would be relatively easy to measure two
devices, such as two DACs for which sighted "differences" have been
found, show that all of these three types of distortion are, say 120db
down, and show that those same listeners cannot distinguish between them
under blinded conditions.


You think that would be easy to do? It seems to me that special equipment
would be needed, and while there are three major categories of distortion,
there are many sub-categories within those three that would all have to be
measured and correlated before an accurate objective picture of the DACs
under test could be constructed. Then you'd have to set up a strict and
well-controlled DBT with enough listeners to yield statistically unambiguous
results. I'd say that's anything but "relatively easy", unless, of course, you
are comparing that effort to jumping off the top of the Empire State building
and flying like Superman. Then, you'd be right. Such a test would be "relatively
easy" to implement!

Now, is this a useful thing for the "average audiophile"? I would argue
yes. Not in the sense that one would want to do this type of testing
for every device prior to purchase, but to understand that sighted bias
can be very powerful, and cannot be "put aside" as some like to believe.


I don't think anyone here is advocating that sighted bias be ignored.

This is useful to the average Joe when he's looking at two or three
components in a shop at X, 3X and 13X price ranges - components that
have no technical reason to sound different, and yet do when demo'd in
the store.

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In article ,
ScottW wrote:

On Thursday, October 3, 2013 7:40:54 PM UTC-7, Audio_Empire wrote:
In article ,

"Arny Krueger" wrote:




The answer is some combination of the 3 Error Variables stated above.




Sure, but again, that's not helpful to the average enthusiast.


It's not helpful to a test engineer either. He lists 3 classes of parameter
variation some of which still have nearly infinite possible conditions.
It's too broad a brush in an effort to oversimplify.


Don't you mean in an effort to look superior in this NG? I think that's a
strong possibility.


Bottom line...it's extremely difficult to establish the thresholds of human
hearing for all possible conditions of these parameters.
Add to this interaction between these sometimes dependent and sometimes
independent variables and then x2 for two channels (and the interaction
effect on imaging) of hopefully independent but possibly dependent
interaction and then add the masking of music and the problem again becomes
impossible.


If it was so easy it would have been done conclusively long ago.


So very true. But some believe deeply that everything sounds the
same, and everything that matters can be measured. That's their
mantra, their religion, their raison d'etre. It is not possible that
amplifiers, preamps, disc players and DACs can sound different
because to admit that would be to admit that subjectivists audio
enthusiasts might be right about something. OTOH, when transistor
amplifiers first came on the market, It was the subjectivist audio
ommunity, led by people like Gordon Holt who screamed that transistor
amps sounded terrible. It gave rise to the high-end movement, and
eventually the "crazy audiophiles" concerns were vindicated. It was true
that while early solid-state gear measured great, it sounded awful ( I
remember that the manufacturing community called this the "transistor
sound" and tried to tell the buying public that it was good thing). Eventually,
the industry caught on and the design conventions that marked early
solid-state gear, were abandoned and solid-state got better. Now, of
course, it's state-of-the-art, and even so-called "mid-fi" gear can sound
excellent.

Later, of course, when CD first hit the market, the subjectivists hailed it as
"perfect sound forever". Again, the "lunatic fringe" of the audiophile community
tried to point out that CDs sounded terrible, especially in the upper registers.
"Ear-bleedingly bright" was the term bandied about in the high-end press.
"But they're perfect", said the objective camp. How can anyone dispute that? yet,
time has shown us that early CDs and many early CD players did sound terrible
( I still have a lot of early discs and they still sound terrible, even on my Sony
XA777ES, which is the best CD player I've ever heard - bar none). Eventually,
both the production end and the playback end of the CD improved to the point
where CD sound can be damned good with a good player and well recorded CD.

The funny part of all of this, is that at least one objectivists who regularly posts
here has said, in this very forum, that he still owns a Sony CDP-101 (the original
Sony player), and that it sounds just like any modern CD player (believe me, that
Sony sounded wretched - all the first generation Japanese players did and do) and
he also has said that he has a Dynaco Stereo-120 amp, one of the early solid-state
amps that sounded so dreadful, and he has stated that he thinks it sounds as good
as any modern amp. Does this cast a certain aspersion on this audio enthusiast's
ability to hear? For my part, I think so.

Now, t's possible that these people really CAN'T hear any difference between
components themselves, and they just assume that since they can't, neither can
anyone else. But more likely, they simply WON'T hear, because they have so much
of themselves wrapped-up in the proposition that if you can hear it, you can measure
it, and measurements tell the entire story. I have an engineering degree, and even
*I* don't believe that. But, I will say this. If, indeed, these people really CAN'T hear
any differences between components , then they would almost HAVE TO rely on
measurements for their opinions on audio, now, wouldn't they?
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On Friday, October 4, 2013 9:16:19 AM UTC-7, Arny Krueger wrote:
"KH" wrote in message

...

On 10/4/2013 8:12 AM, Arny Krueger wrote:


"Audio_Empire" wrote in message


...


In article ,


"Arny Krueger" wrote:




snip




I dunno. Kevin gave you the right answer and you seem to be less than


fully


cognizant of it:




KH wrote:




"If all measured artifacts or differences are, say -110db down, then a


null DBT *is* expected, and a subjectively "verified" audible difference


is clearly suspect."




Of course he's being wildly optimistic about the hearing threshold of the


human ears. Reality is more like 80 dB at the best and 60 dB more


typical.




Not being optimistic. Just pragmatic. At -110db, even the most rabid


naysayer would have to admit his golden ears aren't that good.




I feel that way about the -100 dB number, which BTW is reflected in ITU

Recommendation BS 1116. It's definately an overkill number just like 44.1

KHz and 16 bits are overkill sampling for digital music.


You are joking, are you not Mr. Kruger?

"... 44.1 KHz and 16 bits are overkill sampling for digital music."
The tongue-in-cheek humor here is obviously the notion that
16/44.1 is overkill, when it's just barely adequate.


Audio_Empire


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"Audio_Empire" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Andrew Haley wrote:

Scott wrote:

High end audio community doesn't have a say so in submitting to real
scientific scrutiny.


What does this mean? That high-end audio enthusiats can't do things
scientficially? because the priesthood will come and get them? Or
for some other reason? That only real scientists can perform
experiments?


It means that rigorous scientific controls are rarely, if ever applied to
the
audiophile community and often when such things are tried, it is usually
in
search of some agenda, and not in search of some truth which can often
be inconvenient at best.


Interesting double-talk - all applications of science to audio listening
tests are agenda driven. Well actually yes, and the agenda is finding the
truth. The truth was found and it is alive and well, just not it seems in
the high end press. But that's a business and the antipathy of business for
science is well known and seen clearly in many contexts. Weight loss,
anybody? ;-)

No: the whole point of science is that if an experiment is done
properly the results will be valid no matter who does the experiment.
You don't even have to own a lab coat. All you have to do is not mess
it up.


In the case of audio, that's more difficult than it might seem on the
surface of it.


Right and after all these years the high end press still relies on sighted
evaluations. Well, its a business!

By the way, the man you quote, J Gordon Holt was pretty much the
inventor of subjective audio reviewing and never used DBTs in his
protocols. he also reported hearing differences between cables and
digital playback devices. Go figure....


And he saw the light. Good for him.


Now that is one absurd piece of jactitation. You have no idea of the
context
of that comment, nor do you know what motivated it. To assume that the man
saw some "light" by making a comment that agrees with your preconceived
notions is most dishonest. You sound like a religious zealot here!


I think that in the scientific community we saw JGH's comments as at least
being lip service. I agree that he never actually acted on it, but he did
see the potential in a positive light.

Andrew.



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On Monday, October 7, 2013 6:59:22 AM UTC-7, Arny Krueger wrote:
"Audio_Empire" wrote in message

...

In article ,


Andrew Haley wrote:




Scott wrote:




High end audio community doesn't have a say so in submitting to real


scientific scrutiny.




What does this mean? That high-end audio enthusiats can't do things


scientficially? because the priesthood will come and get them? Or


for some other reason? That only real scientists can perform


experiments?




It means that rigorous scientific controls are rarely, if ever applied to


the


audiophile community and often when such things are tried, it is usually


in


search of some agenda, and not in search of some truth which can often


be inconvenient at best.




Interesting double-talk - all applications of science to audio listening

tests are agenda driven.


Were not talking about science here. We are talking about audiophiles and the debates between "objectivists" and "subjctivists."

Well actually yes, and the agenda is finding the

truth.


No, when we are talking about the great debate in audio between the objectivists and subjectivists the "agenda" is almost always being right regardless of the truth. Both sides are guilty.

The truth was found and it is alive and well, just not it seems in

the high end press. But that's a business and the antipathy of business for

science is well known and seen clearly in many contexts. Weight loss,

anybody? ;-)



No: the whole point of science is that if an experiment is done


properly the results will be valid no matter who does the experiment.


You don't even have to own a lab coat. All you have to do is not mess


it up.




In the case of audio, that's more difficult than it might seem on the


surface of it.




Right and after all these years the high end press still relies on sighted

evaluations. Well, its a business!


well yeah, I suppose if one is familiar with the history of the high end press one would understand why it is the way it is. It was an underground movement that filled a void that the then mainstream audio press didn't fill. That void being reports of actual use of audio equipment and subjective evaluations of it. That is something we all do as audiophiles. We form subjective opinions of our gear and of the recordings we play on it and we do it under sighted conditions. The high end audio press was the first to actually report that experience as part of the review process. Those magazines eventually went from underground to being the leading journals because audiophiles could actually relate to them. So yeah, audio publications are a business and it is good business to be relevant to your target audience.






By the way, the man you quote, J Gordon Holt was pretty much the


inventor of subjective audio reviewing and never used DBTs in his


protocols. he also reported hearing differences between cables and


digital playback devices. Go figure....




And he saw the light. Good for him.




Now that is one absurd piece of jactitation. You have no idea of the


context


of that comment, nor do you know what motivated it. To assume that the man


saw some "light" by making a comment that agrees with your preconceived


notions is most dishonest. You sound like a religious zealot here!




I think that in the scientific community we saw JGH's comments as at least

being lip service. I agree that he never actually acted on it, but he did

see the potential in a positive light.


I am sorry but I have to ask. You mention "the scientific community" and then you say "we." So you are a scientist? Your PhD is in what branch of science? You have published what research papers in peer reviewed scientific journals?


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In article ,
Scott wrote:

On Monday, October 7, 2013 6:59:22 AM UTC-7, Arny Krueger wrote:
"Audio_Empire" wrote in message

...

In article ,


Andrew Haley wrote:




Scott wrote:




High end audio community doesn't have a say so in submitting to real


scientific scrutiny.




What does this mean? That high-end audio enthusiats can't do things


scientficially? because the priesthood will come and get them? Or


for some other reason? That only real scientists can perform


experiments?




It means that rigorous scientific controls are rarely, if ever applied to


the


audiophile community and often when such things are tried, it is usually


in


search of some agenda, and not in search of some truth which can often


be inconvenient at best.




Interesting double-talk - all applications of science to audio listening

tests are agenda driven.


Were not talking about science here. We are talking about audiophiles and the
debates between "objectivists" and "subjctivists."

Well actually yes, and the agenda is finding the

truth.


No, when we are talking about the great debate in audio between the
objectivists and subjectivists the "agenda" is almost always being right
regardless of the truth. Both sides are guilty.

The truth was found and it is alive and well, just not it seems in

the high end press. But that's a business and the antipathy of business for

science is well known and seen clearly in many contexts. Weight loss,

anybody? ;-)



No: the whole point of science is that if an experiment is done


properly the results will be valid no matter who does the experiment.


You don't even have to own a lab coat. All you have to do is not mess


it up.




In the case of audio, that's more difficult than it might seem on the


surface of it.




Right and after all these years the high end press still relies on sighted

evaluations. Well, its a business!


well yeah, I suppose if one is familiar with the history of the high end
press one would understand why it is the way it is. It was an underground
movement that filled a void that the then mainstream audio press didn't fill.
That void being reports of actual use of audio equipment and subjective
evaluations of it. That is something we all do as audiophiles. We form
subjective opinions of our gear and of the recordings we play on it and we do
it under sighted conditions. The high end audio press was the first to
actually report that experience as part of the review process. Those
magazines eventually went from underground to being the leading journals
because audiophiles could actually relate to them. So yeah, audio
publications are a business and it is good business to be relevant to your
target audience.


Excellent point. The "high-end" came about as a backlash against early
solid-state gear, which sounded terrible. The high-end press started for
two reasons: first, was what I call "Julian Hirsch-ism" where tests of equipment
always gave the same result. "... The Acme X7000 (amplifier, preamp, tuner,
tape deck, you-name-it), like all modern (amplifiers, preamps, tuners, tape
decks, you-name-'ems) has no sound of it's own and meets its specifications."
This rubbed many audio enthusiasts the wrong way, because, obviously, these
components did not all sound the same, and did indeed have a "sound or their
own". The second reason was because these same magazines (Stereo Review,
High-Fidelity, and to a lesser extent, Audio) failed to note that this new transistor
gear sounded terrible. As I said before, the manufacturers hailed this terrible
sound as "the transistor sound" and tried to tell the audio enthusiast and
music-loving communities that this new "sound" was somehow good. It didn't
take most of us but about one experience to realize that both the manufacturers
and their "mouthpieces" (those aforementioned magazines) were lying through
their teeth! My realization came when I was given an Allied Knight-Kit solid-state
amp for Christmas one year. It sounded so terrible, that I was skeptical of solid-
state electronics for audio for years. My faith wasn't restored when, after college,
when my best friend and I took engineering jobs at a large Aerospace company,
and he bought a Dynaco Stereo 120 and PAT-4 preamp. They too sounded lousy
(but not as bad as that Knight-Kit, P-U!).

I was never impressed with Stereo Review, but I will say this about High-Fidelity.
In the early 'sixties, they were one classy magazine. They had this heavy matte
paper cover that was really elegant and I learned so much about music from reading
their articles and record reviews by such well-known writers in the field as Gene
Lees and Nicholas Slomensky, that I found the magazine worthwhile in spite of
heir uncritical "public-relations-firm" attitude toward their advertisers' audio
products.

Audio_Empire
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"Arny Krueger" wrote:

Audio signals have only 2 dimensions per channel. Therefore everything that
can go wrong with them can be quantified with a limited number of variables.

These 3 Error Variables a

(1) Linear distortion (phase and frequency response errors)
(2) Nonlinear distortion (amplitude and time base errors), measured as
harmonic distortion, intermodulation distortion, and frequency or phase
distortion AKA jitter.
(3) and noise or deterministic and random or pseudo random interfering
signals.

Believe it or not, that is it!


How do I evaluate psychoacoustic encoding (data reduction) using these
"Error Variables"?

Norbert
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In article ,
Norbert Hahn wrote:

"Arny Krueger" wrote:

Audio signals have only 2 dimensions per channel. Therefore everything that
can go wrong with them can be quantified with a limited number of variables.

These 3 Error Variables a

(1) Linear distortion (phase and frequency response errors)
(2) Nonlinear distortion (amplitude and time base errors), measured as
harmonic distortion, intermodulation distortion, and frequency or phase
distortion AKA jitter.
(3) and noise or deterministic and random or pseudo random interfering
signals.

Believe it or not, that is it!


How do I evaluate psychoacoustic encoding (data reduction) using these
"Error Variables"?

Norbert


I would say, off the top of my head, that those who believe that all sonic
characteristics can be distilled into three error variables, would say that data
reduction (psychoacoustic encoding) creates none of those variables, and as
such, is totally transparent and therefore inaudible. I've actually seen some
of those types actually voice that opinion.

However, my experience is that it's not what data reduction TAKES AWAY
from the signal that is audible, it's the non-correlated "new" information that
this kind of compression ADDS to the signal which would make it a function
of #3: "... noise or deterministic and random or pseudo random interfering
signals."

Audio_Empire


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"Norbert Hahn" wrote in message
...
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

Audio signals have only 2 dimensions per channel. Therefore everything
that
can go wrong with them can be quantified with a limited number of
variables.

These 3 Error Variables a

(1) Linear distortion (phase and frequency response errors)
(2) Nonlinear distortion (amplitude and time base errors), measured as
harmonic distortion, intermodulation distortion, and frequency or phase
distortion AKA jitter.
(3) and noise or deterministic and random or pseudo random interfering
signals.


Believe it or not, that is it!


How do I evaluate psychoacoustic encoding (data reduction) using these
"Error Variables"?


Current best practice involves using double blind listening tests.


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"Scott" wrote in message
...

On Monday, October 7, 2013 6:59:22 AM UTC-7, Arny Krueger wrote:
"Audio_Empire" wrote in message

...

In article ,


Andrew Haley wrote:




Scott wrote:




High end audio community doesn't have a say so in submitting to real
scientific scrutiny.



What does this mean? That high-end audio enthusiast can't do things
scientifically? because the priesthood will come and get them? Or
for some other reason? That only real scientists can perform
experiments?


It means that rigorous scientific controls are rarely, if ever applied
to the
audiophile community


Because they flat out refuse to participate.

and often when such things are tried, it is usually in
search of some agenda, and not in search of some truth which can often
be inconvenient at best.


Interesting double-talk - all applications of science to audio listening
tests are agenda driven.


Were not talking about science here.


Please speak for just yourself.

We are talking about audiophiles and the debates between "objectivists"
and "subjectivists."


I have yet to find that place in the universe where we can turn science on
and off like a light switch. If you know where it is could you post the
lat/longs? ;-)

Well actually yes, and the agenda is finding the truth.


No, when we are talking about the great debate in audio between the
objectivists and subjectivists the "agenda" is almost always being right
regardless of the truth. Both sides are guilty.


Again, please speak for just yourself.

First off, the terms objectivists and subjectivist as used in the high end
press are themselves quite agenda driven. Then, if you actually check the
commonly accepted definitions of the words, the mystery deepens because the
high end audio press's use of them is at variance with their commonly
accepted meanings in the real world.

The truth was found and it is alive and well, just not it seems in
the high end press. But that's a business and the antipathy of business
for
science is well known and seen clearly in many contexts. Weight loss,
anybody? ;-)


No: the whole point of science is that if an experiment is done
properly the results will be valid no matter who does the experiment.


You don't even have to own a lab coat. All you have to do is not mess
it up.


In the case of audio, that's more difficult than it might seem on the
surface of it.


Right and after all these years the high end press still relies on sighted
evaluations. Well, its a business!


well yeah, I suppose if one is familiar with the history of the high end
press one would understand why it is the way it is. It was an underground
movement that filled a void that the then mainstream audio press didn't
fill.


Right, the mainstream audio press was strikingly unable and unable to sell
the Emperor's new clothes.

That void being reports of actual use of audio equipment and subjective
evaluations of it.


I find no lack of such things in the mainstream press of the day. Remember,
I was a charter subscriber of Stereophile - one of the longest-lasting "1
year subscriptions" to a periodical known to man! ;-)

That is something we all do as audiophiles. We form subjective opinions of
our gear and of the recordings we play on it and we do it under sighted
conditions.


Again please speak for yourself!

The high end audio press was the first to actually report that experience
as part of the review process.


And those of us who were interested in the true facts of the matter found
even larger lapses of accuracy than we audited the process as being used by
the high end audio press.

Those magazines eventually went from underground to being the leading
journals because audiophiles could actually relate to them.


The high end audio magazines were frequently kept on the sales counters in
high end audio stores for pretty obvious reasons.

So yeah, audio publications are a business and it is good business to be
relevant to your target audience.


Haven't seen audited circulation figures for many of them lately...






By the way, the man you quote, J Gordon Holt was pretty much the


inventor of subjective audio reviewing and never used DBTs in his


protocols. he also reported hearing differences between cables and


digital playback devices. Go figure....




And he saw the light. Good for him.




Now that is one absurd piece of jactitation. You have no idea of the


context


of that comment, nor do you know what motivated it. To assume that the
man


saw some "light" by making a comment that agrees with your preconceived


notions is most dishonest. You sound like a religious zealot here!




I think that in the scientific community we saw JGH's comments as at least

being lip service. I agree that he never actually acted on it, but he did

see the potential in a positive light.


I am sorry but I have to ask. You mention "the scientific community" and
then you say "we." So you are a scientist? Your PhD is in what branch of
science? You have published what research papers in peer reviewed scientific
journals?



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"Audio_Empire" wrote in message
...

Excellent point. The "high-end" came about as a backlash against early
solid-state gear, which sounded terrible.


If this Stereophile article isn't a pack of lies

http://www.stereophile.com/content/50-years-stereophile

the first generally recognized high end audio publication was Stereophile,
vol 1 number 1, published Nov 2, 1962 which agrees with my recollections as
a charter subscriber.

The first commerical SS power amp with any kind of distribution was to the
best of my knowlege the Acoustech Model 1 which was reviewed by High
Fidelity in August 1963 which roughly corresponded to general retail
availabiility. This BTW is the review that led to the termination of the
late Julian Hirsch by High Fidelity magazine on the grounds of conflict of
interest because he owned Acoustech stock. He shortly resurfaced at Stereo
Review.

The timing of these two facts reverse the causuality that you claim.

The high-end press started for
two reasons: first, was what I call "Julian Hirsch-ism" where tests of
equipment
always gave the same result. "... The Acme X7000 (amplifier, preamp,
tuner,
tape deck, you-name-it), like all modern (amplifiers, preamps, tuners,
tape
decks, you-name-'ems) has no sound of it's own and meets its
specifications."


Actually, this kind of text first showed up in Julian's Stereo Review
articles, much later, again invalidating the claimed timing.

During Julian's days at High Fidelity audio gear was generally audibly
colored. After all, the power amps were all tubed!

SS audio gear didn't generally hit the market until 1964 or later.


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In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

"Audio_Empire" wrote in message
...

Excellent point. The "high-end" came about as a backlash against early
solid-state gear, which sounded terrible.


If this Stereophile article isn't a pack of lies

http://www.stereophile.com/content/50-years-stereophile

the first generally recognized high end audio publication was Stereophile,
vol 1 number 1, published Nov 2, 1962 which agrees with my recollections as
a charter subscriber.

The first commerical SS power amp with any kind of distribution was to the
best of my knowlege the Acoustech Model 1 which was reviewed by High
Fidelity in August 1963 which roughly corresponded to general retail
availabiility. This BTW is the review that led to the termination of the
late Julian Hirsch by High Fidelity magazine on the grounds of conflict of
interest because he owned Acoustech stock. He shortly resurfaced at Stereo
Review.

The timing of these two facts reverse the causuality that you claim.

The high-end press started for
two reasons: first, was what I call "Julian Hirsch-ism" where tests of
equipment
always gave the same result. "... The Acme X7000 (amplifier, preamp,
tuner,
tape deck, you-name-it), like all modern (amplifiers, preamps, tuners,
tape
decks, you-name-'ems) has no sound of it's own and meets its
specifications."


Actually, this kind of text first showed up in Julian's Stereo Review
articles, much later, again invalidating the claimed timing.

During Julian's days at High Fidelity audio gear was generally audibly
colored. After all, the power amps were all tubed!

SS audio gear didn't generally hit the market until 1964 or later.


There was no timeline inferred, Mr. Kruger and Julian Hirsch was neither
the first nor the only practitioner of what I called "Julian Hirschism."
But you are right about most equipment being colored in those days, it
basically depended on what "color" you, as the consumer/listener
preferred. So when Julian and his cohort Gladden Houck insisted that the
unit under test (whatever that unit happened to be - speakers excluded),
"...like all modern (whatever)) has no sound of it's own..." they were
either deaf or lying. Whichever it was, they were wrong as you just
pointed out. But it wasn't just tubed equipment that was colored in
those days, early solid-state equipment (including the earlier
mentioned Acoustech Model 1, which, as well as sounding terrible also
had a disconcerting habit of blowing-up!. But there were a number of SS
amps that came out about then. All of them were just as colored as any
tube electronics - just in a different way. I clearly remember Stewart
Hegeman's Harman-Kardon Citation B power amp was also introduced in 1963
as was the Knight line of SS intergrated amps from Allied Radio. All
sounded pretty bad - worse than any of the better tube amps from
McIntosh and Dyna or the H-K Citation I.

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In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

"Norbert Hahn" wrote in message
...
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

Audio signals have only 2 dimensions per channel. Therefore everything
that
can go wrong with them can be quantified with a limited number of
variables.

These 3 Error Variables a

(1) Linear distortion (phase and frequency response errors)
(2) Nonlinear distortion (amplitude and time base errors), measured as
harmonic distortion, intermodulation distortion, and frequency or phase
distortion AKA jitter.
(3) and noise or deterministic and random or pseudo random interfering
signals.


Believe it or not, that is it!


How do I evaluate psychoacoustic encoding (data reduction) using these
"Error Variables"?


Current best practice involves using double blind listening tests.


Brings up a good point, Mr. Kruger. You trot-out DBTs as being the proof
of your assertions quite often. Where are they? Where, for instance, are
the DBTs of data reduction and its artifacts? Where are the DBTs you
keep talking about that shows that all DACs sound the same. I've
searched the AES papers and I can't find them, I've done what I believe
to be a duly diligent Google search for papers describing these DBTs,
and their results and found little. I did find one Vanderkooy paper, on
DAC sound but it doesn't say that the results were that all DACs sound
the same. I would love to see some of these DBT results papers.

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"Audio_Empire" wrote in message
...

In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:


"Norbert Hahn" wrote in message
...


"Arny Krueger" wrote:


Audio signals have only 2 dimensions per channel. Therefore everything
that
can go wrong with them can be quantified with a limited number of
variables.

These 3 Error Variables a


(1) Linear distortion (phase and frequency response errors)
(2) Nonlinear distortion (amplitude and time base errors), measured as
harmonic distortion, intermodulation distortion, and frequency or phase
distortion AKA jitter.
(3) and noise or deterministic and random or pseudo random interfering
signals.


Believe it or not, that is it!


How do I evaluate psychoacoustic encoding (data reduction) using these
"Error Variables"?


Current best practice involves using double blind listening tests.


Brings up a good point, Mr. Kruger. You trot-out DBTs as being the proof
of your assertions quite often. Where are they?


Asked and answered.

Where, for instance, are
the DBTs of data reduction and its artifacts?


Most commonly intermediate work products of coder developers.

Where are the DBTs you
keep talking about that shows that all DACs sound the same.


Asked and answered.

I've searched the AES papers and I can't find them,


One famous example: https://secure.aes.org/forum/pubs/journal/?ID=2

"Audibility of a CD-Standard A/DA/A Loop Inserted into High-Resolution Audio
Playback"

Google searching provides this:

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!to...nd/6rcu2FXxEU0

Which shows that I previously cited it in a response to you, and you
responded to it and quoted its name. Are you having err, memory problems?
;-)



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Audio_Empire wrote:
In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

"Norbert Hahn" wrote in message
...
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

Audio signals have only 2 dimensions per channel. Therefore everything
that
can go wrong with them can be quantified with a limited number of
variables.

These 3 Error Variables a

(1) Linear distortion (phase and frequency response errors)
(2) Nonlinear distortion (amplitude and time base errors), measured as
harmonic distortion, intermodulation distortion, and frequency or phase
distortion AKA jitter.
(3) and noise or deterministic and random or pseudo random interfering
signals.


Believe it or not, that is it!


How do I evaluate psychoacoustic encoding (data reduction) using these
"Error Variables"?


Current best practice involves using double blind listening tests.


Brings up a good point, Mr. Kruger. You trot-out DBTs as being the proof
of your assertions quite often. Where are they? Where, for instance, are
the DBTs of data reduction and its artifacts?


Subjective Evaluation of State-of-the-Art2-Channel Audio Codecs,
Soulodre et al.
telos-systems.com/techtalk/00222.pdf

Measuring the Characteristics of "Expert" Listeners
www.mp3-tech.org/programmer/docs/96-05.pdf

Subjective Evaluation of Large and Small Impairments in Audio Codecs
Soulodre et al.,

There are probably more.

Where are the DBTs you keep talking about that shows that all DACs
sound the same.


That's a rusty old canard. Nobody says they all sound the same, just
that where they sound different there is an easily measurable
explanation. It's not hard to mess it up.

Andrew.

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On Tuesday, October 22, 2013 9:53:56 AM UTC-7, Andrew Haley wrote:
Audio_Empire wrote:

SNIP
Where are the DBTs you keep talking about that shows that all DACs
sound the same.


That's a rusty old canard. Nobody says they all sound the same, just
that where they sound different there is an easily measurable
explanation. It's not hard to mess it up.


Andrew.


Unfortunately, Andrew. There are people on this very forum who do assert that
all DACS sound the same. They reason that this is so because they say that all
measurable DAC parameters are at or below the threshold of audibility in modern
designs. So yes, there is a school of belief that all modern high-end DACs are
sonically transparent. and have said so on this and other forums more than once.

In fact, in this very thread, on September 22, Arny Kruger answered my query about
the worth of a $40,000 MSB DAC thusly:

Me:
Sure, good engineering will result in better sound, better reliability,
and greater longevity in hi-fi gear as in any other manufactured goods,
but is there really anything in an MSB Diamond Platinum DAC IV plus, for
instance, to justify its $40,000+ price tag?


Mr. Kruger:
Or a DAC costing $4,000 or $400, or even more than some costs $40.


On the 24th of September, the discussion continued:

Me - responding to Mr. Kruger's reply about a $40 DAC sounding just like the more
expensive DACs:

Well, now you're going too far. Many DACs DO sound different (and some
better) than others - even in a bias controlled test.


Mr. Kruger Replies:

Yes. In this point in life, THE POINT WHERE DAC CHIPS ARE SONICALLY
TRANSPARENT LIES ABOUT A DOLLAR A CHANNEL OR LESS. (emphasis mine).


For example, I ended up with a motherboard sound facility that produced no
output, so an external card was the easiest solution. For less than $30 I
obtained an audio interface that per independent tests was the equal of an
audio interfact that cost me $399 in 2001.


Me:
However, my
point is that these differences are not necessarily tied to the unit's
cost. I.E. a $4000 DAC doesn't, by virtue of its cost, necessarily
sound better than a $400 DAC. In my experience, however, DACs
utilizing stereo D/A chips generally "sound" better (and by that I
mean that there are aspects of their audio performance, such as
soundstage or bass presentation that they do do differently than other
designs) than do DACs that "time-share" a single D/A converter chip
and those utilizing dual-differential D/As can sound better yet, but
I've found no hard-and-fast rules there, either.


Mr. Kruger:
Your distaste for the kind of DBT that professionals use is well known.

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Audio_Empire wrote:
On Tuesday, October 22, 2013 9:53:56 AM UTC-7, Andrew Haley wrote:
Audio_Empire wrote:

SNIP
Where are the DBTs you keep talking about that shows that all DACs
sound the same.


That's a rusty old canard. Nobody says they all sound the same, just
that where they sound different there is an easily measurable
explanation. It's not hard to mess it up.


Unfortunately, Andrew. There are people on this very forum who do
assert that all DACS sound the same. They reason that this is so
because they say that all measurable DAC parameters are at or below
the threshold of audibility in modern designs. So yes, there is a
school of belief that all modern high-end DACs are sonically
transparent. and have said so on this and other forums more than
once.


But that's not the same as "all DACs sound the same." THere are,
after all, people making tubed DACs.

In fact, in this very thread, on September 22, Arny Kruger answered
my query about the worth of a $40,000 MSB DAC thusly:

Me:
Sure, good engineering will result in better sound, better reliability,
and greater longevity in hi-fi gear as in any other manufactured goods,
but is there really anything in an MSB Diamond Platinum DAC IV plus, for
instance, to justify its $40,000+ price tag?


Mr. Kruger:
Or a DAC costing $4,000 or $400, or even more than some costs $40.


On the 24th of September, the discussion continued:

Me - responding to Mr. Kruger's reply about a $40 DAC sounding just
like the more expensive DACs:

Well, now you're going too far. Many DACs DO sound different (and some
better) than others - even in a bias controlled test.


Mr. Kruger Replies:

Yes. In this point in life, THE POINT WHERE DAC CHIPS ARE SONICALLY
TRANSPARENT LIES ABOUT A DOLLAR A CHANNEL OR LESS. (emphasis mine).


Well, yes. But there's more to a DAC than a DAC chip. As I said,
it's easy to mess it up. I've seen some measurements of DACs with
very odd-looking results.

I think you're misunderstanding Arny's point. He's saying that with
ordinary engineering expertise it's possible to make a transparent DAC
for not very much money. He's not saying that every DAC at that price
point, or any price point, is transparent.

Andrew.

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Arny Krueger wrote:

During Julian's days at High Fidelity audio gear was generally audibly
colored. After all, the power amps were all tubed!


Ok. Which of the tube power amps reviewed by Julian for
High Fidelity do you think you could spot in a blind test?

Peter.
--




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On Thursday, October 24, 2013 6:50:56 AM UTC-7, Andrew Haley wrote:
Audio_Empire wrote:

On Tuesday, October 22, 2013 9:53:56 AM UTC-7, Andrew Haley wrote:


Audio_Empire wrote:


SNIP


Where are the DBTs you keep talking about that shows that all DACs


sound the same.




That's a rusty old canard. Nobody says they all sound the same, just


that where they sound different there is an easily measurable


explanation. It's not hard to mess it up.




Unfortunately, Andrew. There are people on this very forum who do


assert that all DACS sound the same. They reason that this is so


because they say that all measurable DAC parameters are at or below


the threshold of audibility in modern designs. So yes, there is a


school of belief that all modern high-end DACs are sonically


transparent. and have said so on this and other forums more than


once.




But that's not the same as "all DACs sound the same." THere are,

after all, people making tubed DACs.



In fact, in this very thread, on September 22, Arny Kruger answered


my query about the worth of a $40,000 MSB DAC thusly:




Me:


Sure, good engineering will result in better sound, better reliability,


and greater longevity in hi-fi gear as in any other manufactured goods,


but is there really anything in an MSB Diamond Platinum DAC IV plus, for


instance, to justify its $40,000+ price tag?




Mr. Kruger:


Or a DAC costing $4,000 or $400, or even more than some costs $40.




On the 24th of September, the discussion continued:




Me - responding to Mr. Kruger's reply about a $40 DAC sounding just


like the more expensive DACs:




Well, now you're going too far. Many DACs DO sound different (and some


better) than others - even in a bias controlled test.




Mr. Kruger Replies:




Yes. In this point in life, THE POINT WHERE DAC CHIPS ARE SONICALLY


TRANSPARENT LIES ABOUT A DOLLAR A CHANNEL OR LESS. (emphasis mine).




Well, yes. But there's more to a DAC than a DAC chip. As I said,

it's easy to mess it up. I've seen some measurements of DACs with

very odd-looking results.



I think you're misunderstanding Arny's point. He's saying that with

ordinary engineering expertise it's possible to make a transparent DAC

for not very much money. He's not saying that every DAC at that price

point, or any price point, is transparent.



Andrew.


It certainly seems to me that he's saying that they all sound the same. After
all, in answer to my comment:

"Well, now you're going too far. Many DACs DO sound different (and some
better) than others - even in a bias controlled test."

Mr. Kruger Replied:
"Yes. In this point in life, THE POINT WHERE DAC CHIPS ARE SONICALLY
TRANSPARENT LIES ABOUT A DOLLAR A CHANNEL OR LESS. (emphasis mine)."

I would think that had he not meant that all DACs sound the same, he would
have clarified his meaning by saying something like "I was just referring to the
D/A chip, other parts of the circuitry in a DAC can, of course, affect the sound."
But he didn't. This and previous comments by Mr. Kruger over the years lead
me to the conclusion that this is his stand on the issue. Sure, I could be wrong,
so I guess we need to hear from Mr. Kruger on this.
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"Andrew Haley" wrote in message
...

Mr. Kruger Replies:


Yes. In this point in life, THE POINT WHERE DAC CHIPS ARE SONICALLY
TRANSPARENT LIES ABOUT A DOLLAR A CHANNEL OR LESS. (emphasis mine).


Well, yes. But there's more to a DAC than a DAC chip.


Agreed. It happens less and less, but it still happens.

OTOH good DACs are showing up in progressively more highly integated chips.
For example the AMS AS3525 chip ($10 in small quantities) includes 4 DACs,
2 ADCs and a complete programmable computer system including RAM and power
management as well as sophisticated headphone and microphone amplifiers on
one chip. This chip is the core of some great-sounding popular sub-$30
portable music players. It seems hard to understand how one can hook this
chip up and have it work at all without its audio output being very clean.
All you have to do for clean audio output is to run three separate
connections from the proper chip terminals to the headphone jack.

As I said,
it's easy to mess it up. I've seen some measurements of DACs with
very odd-looking results.


For example, someone recently forwarded me some tests involving an
inexpensive USB DAC that clipped several dB below FS. It's audible!

I think you're misunderstanding Arny's point. He's saying that with
ordinary engineering expertise it's possible to make a transparent DAC
for not very much money. He's not saying that every DAC at that price
point, or any price point, is transparent.


The lesson I take away is that some people seem to only be able to deal with
engineering concepts at the hyperbole level.


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"Peter Irwin" wrote in message
...
Arny Krueger wrote:

During Julian's days at High Fidelity audio gear was generally audibly
colored. After all, the power amps were all tubed!


Ok. Which of the tube power amps reviewed by Julian for
High Fidelity do you think you could spot in a blind test?


Wikipedia says that Julian's first review for for Hi-Fi/Stereo Review was
in October 1961. I don't know how much down time he had after getting fired
by High Fidelity Magazine, but it was probably less than a year.

Looking at http://www.roger-russell.com/magrevhf.htm prior to 1961, I see a
lot of amplifiers that I suspect that could be detected in a blind test,
particularly if a more difficult than average speaker load (e.g. AR-3) were
involved. I'm pretty sure that MacIntosh amps from the MC75 onward were
generally sonically transparent, as were more popular-priced amps such as
the Dyna MKIII (with fresh tubes). With older tubes and poorly adjusted
bias a Dyna MK III has been detected in an ABX test but fresh tubes and
readjusted bias fixed that up.


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On Friday, October 25, 2013 6:28:46 AM UTC-7, Arny Krueger wrote:
"Andrew Haley" wrote in message

...

Mr. Kruger Replies:
Yes. In this point in life, THE POINT WHERE DAC CHIPS ARE SONICALLY
TRANSPARENT LIES ABOUT A DOLLAR A CHANNEL OR LESS. (emphasis mine).




Well, yes. But there's more to a DAC than a DAC chip.


Agreed. It happens less and less, but it still happens.

OTOH good DACs are showing up in progressively more highly integated chips.
For example the AMS AS3525 chip ($10 in small quantities) includes 4 DACs,
2 ADCs and a complete programmable computer system including RAM and power
management as well as sophisticated headphone and microphone amplifiers on
one chip. This chip is the core of some great-sounding popular sub-$30
portable music players. It seems hard to understand how one can hook this
chip up and have it work at all without its audio output being very clean.
All you have to do for clean audio output is to run three separate
connections from the proper chip terminals to the headphone jack.

As I said,
it's easy to mess it up. I've seen some measurements of DACs with
very odd-looking results.


For example, someone recently forwarded me some tests involving an
inexpensive USB DAC that clipped several dB below FS. It's audible!

I think you're misunderstanding Arny's point. He's saying that with
ordinary engineering expertise it's possible to make a transparent DAC
for not very much money. He's not saying that every DAC at that price
point, or any price point, is transparent.


The lesson I take away is that some people seem to only be able to deal with
engineering concepts at the hyperbole level.


While that's probably true, it doesn't answer the question. Have you or have you not
asserted that all DACs sound the same? That's what I have gleaned from the literally
dozens of posts on the subject that you have posted here over the last couple of years.
If I have gotten the wrong idea, I'd like to know about it. While I find that the audible
differences between DAC products are small, even subtle sometimes, they do exist, and
they make most DACs unique and discernible in a double-blind listening test.
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Audio_Empire wrote:
On Friday, October 25, 2013 6:28:46 AM UTC-7, Arny Krueger wrote:

For example, someone recently forwarded me some tests involving an
inexpensive USB DAC that clipped several dB below FS. It's audible!

I think you're misunderstanding Arny's point. He's saying that with
ordinary engineering expertise it's possible to make a transparent DAC
for not very much money. He's not saying that every DAC at that price
point, or any price point, is transparent.


The lesson I take away is that some people seem to only be able to deal with
engineering concepts at the hyperbole level.


While that's probably true, it doesn't answer the question. Have you
or have you not asserted that all DACs sound the same?


Which part of "It's audible!" is confusing you? How can anyone
possibly be any clearer?

Andrew.


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On Saturday, October 26, 2013 6:57:52 AM UTC-7, Andrew Haley wrote:
Audio_Empire wrote:

On Friday, October 25, 2013 6:28:46 AM UTC-7, Arny Krueger wrote:




For example, someone recently forwarded me some tests involving an


inexpensive USB DAC that clipped several dB below FS. It's audible!




I think you're misunderstanding Arny's point. He's saying that with


ordinary engineering expertise it's possible to make a transparent DAC


for not very much money. He's not saying that every DAC at that price


point, or any price point, is transparent.




The lesson I take away is that some people seem to only be able to deal with


engineering concepts at the hyperbole level.




While that's probably true, it doesn't answer the question. Have you


or have you not asserted that all DACs sound the same?




Which part of "It's audible!" is confusing you? How can anyone

possibly be any clearer?



Andrew.


I don't think that citing an obviously defective design is any concession to anything.
Of course it's audible. Comparing two identical interconnects, where one has a defective
shield in it is going to make an audible difference too, but that doesn't mean that a group
of non-defective interconnects at all price points won't all sound identical. IOW, saying
that a defective component is audible is a cop-out and is a non-committal position.
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Audio_Empire wrote:
On Saturday, October 26, 2013 6:57:52 AM UTC-7, Andrew Haley wrote:
Audio_Empire wrote [to Arny]:

While that's probably true, it doesn't answer the question. Have you
or have you not asserted that all DACs sound the same?


Which part of "It's audible!" is confusing you? How can anyone
possibly be any clearer?


I don't think that citing an obviously defective design is any
concession to anything. Of course it's audible. Comparing two
identical interconnects, where one has a defective shield in it is
going to make an audible difference too, but that doesn't mean that
a group of non-defective interconnects at all price points won't all
sound identical. IOW, saying that a defective component is audible
is a cop-out and is a non-committal position.


Surely, if a transparent DAC can be made for dollars, it makes sense
to assert that any DAC which its not transparent is defective. I
think I'd be quite happy to suggest that if two DACs can be
distinguished by listening then at least one of them must be
defective. Of course, I could be proved wrong by a properly-
conducted blind test.

Andrew.
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On Sunday, October 27, 2013 6:39:53 AM UTC-7, Andrew Haley wrote:
Audio_Empire wrote:

On Saturday, October 26, 2013 6:57:52 AM UTC-7, Andrew Haley wrote:


Audio_Empire wrote [to Arny]:




While that's probably true, it doesn't answer the question. Have you


or have you not asserted that all DACs sound the same?




Which part of "It's audible!" is confusing you? How can anyone


possibly be any clearer?




I don't think that citing an obviously defective design is any


concession to anything. Of course it's audible. Comparing two


identical interconnects, where one has a defective shield in it is


going to make an audible difference too, but that doesn't mean that


a group of non-defective interconnects at all price points won't all


sound identical. IOW, saying that a defective component is audible


is a cop-out and is a non-committal position.




Surely, if a transparent DAC can be made for dollars, it makes sense

to assert that any DAC which its not transparent is defective. I

think I'd be quite happy to suggest that if two DACs can be

distinguished by listening then at least one of them must be

defective. Of course, I could be proved wrong by a properly-

conducted blind test.



Andrew.


The problem here seems to be with the term "transparent". Like I said in
another post, I haven't encountered a bad DAC in years, but is that the
definition of transparent? For instance, I received a DAC from a company
called Gefen last week:

http://www.gefen.com/kvm/gtv-192kusb...?prod_id=11499

It is similar in concept to the AudioQuest DragonFly in that it is a USB
DAC. It has enhanced functionality over the DragonFly because it supports
24/192KHz where the AudioQuest only decodes 24/96 KHz. It also has an
Optical output so that it can be used as a USB/SPDIF converter for use with
a high-end DAC that lacks a USB input. While it sounds fine, it does not
have the bottom-end of the AudioQuest (which I also have) nor does it
have as good a soundstage presentation. But neither of these DACs has as
good a top end or as good imaging as the Ayre QB9. Does that make them
not transparent? I don't know. None of the three sounds distorted or noisy
and Using a test CD and an HP 410b audio voltmeter, all three measure within
~1 dB from 10 Hz (the lowest frequency on the CD) out to 20 KHz. Yet all three
sound different and the Ayre sounds best. I could live with any of them, but
that certainly doesn't mean that I don't note any differences. It's like the
differences between several very good speakers. Some do some things
better and others do other things better, But between, say, a pair of Wilson
Alexandria XLF. Magico Q7s, or Martin Logan CLS (with suitable sub-woofers),
as different as they are from one another (far more different than than the
differences between these three DACs), I could happily live with any of them.
They are all excellent loudspeakers, I wouldn't go so far as to say that any of
them was "defective", yet all produce very different musical presentations. See
my point?

And it may be that all current DAC chips are themselves so close to perfect as
to measure virtually identically. But there is more to a commercially available DAC
box than merely the D/A chip inside of it. There are power supplies, filters, analog
amplifiers, etc. There are also designs that use one chip switching between right and
left channels on a "time-share" basis for stereo, while other use two separate chips,
one for each channel. Some designs utilizes many as four D/A chips in a stereo dual
differential configuration. Surely these different design approaches are going to
result in slightly different presentations. On the very top-end of the market, many
DAC designs utilize proprietary D/A circuits built-up using discrete components,
eschewing the use of I.C.-based D/A chips altogether. Two of thee that come to mind
are the products of the British company dCS with their proprietary "ring DAC" technology
and MSB with their $40,000 DAC IV "Diamond" converter using set of resin potted discrete
"Ladder DAC" modules. Are we supposed to accept that these DACs with their
luxury automobile price tags sound no different than a similar product costing, in some
cases, orders of magnitude less than these products? I'll grant that most likely, there is
nothing in these mega-buck designs that warrant, performance-wise, anyway, their
price tags, but I'll guarantee that they don't sound the same as other designs, yet I
doubt that anyone would say that they are less than transparent - according to the accepted
definition of the term.

The problem is that while I'm sure that audio groups, both formal and informal, the world
over have conducted DBT tests to determine the audibility of digital to analog conversion,
there seem to be no definitive studies that once can cite. Lipschitz and Vanderkooy haven't
undertaken such a study, and neither have Meyer and Moran. A search of the JAES website
will bring up no study that anyone has been able to cite of DAC sound except the oft-
mentioned Meyer and Moran study entitled "Audibility of a CD-Standard A/DA/A Loop Inserted
into High-Resolution Audio Playback" which is, in spite of some posters' protestations to the
contrary, NOT a study about the audibility of different types of DACs and exhibits a totally
different agenda.

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Audio_Empire wrote:
On Sunday, October 27, 2013 6:39:53 AM UTC-7, Andrew Haley wrote:

Surely, if a transparent DAC can be made for dollars, it makes sense
to assert that any DAC which its not transparent is defective. I
think I'd be quite happy to suggest that if two DACs can be
distinguished by listening then at least one of them must be
defective. Of course, I could be proved wrong by a properly-
conducted blind test.
Andrew.


The problem here seems to be with the term "transparent".


I'll define what I mean: any ADC/DAC that cannot be distinguished from
a piece of wire in a listening test is transparent.

[ ... ]

And it may be that all current DAC chips are themselves so close to
perfect as to measure virtually identically. But there is more to a
commercially available DAC box than merely the D/A chip inside of
it. There are power supplies, filters, analog amplifiers, etc. There
are also designs that use one chip switching between right and left
channels on a "time-share" basis for stereo, while other use two
separate chips, one for each channel. Some designs utilizes many as
four D/A chips in a stereo dual differential configuration. Surely
these different design approaches are going to result in slightly
different presentations.


Yes, but techniques exist in the world of instrumentation to reduce to
reduce artefacts way below thresholds of hearing. Audio is easy when
compared with, say, measuring nanoamps in a noisy electrical
environment, as in an atomic force microscope.

On the very top-end of the market, many DAC designs utilize
proprietary D/A circuits built-up using discrete components,
eschewing the use of I.C.-based D/A chips altogether. Two of thee
that come to mind are the products of the British company dCS with
their proprietary "ring DAC" technology and MSB with their $40,000
DAC IV "Diamond" converter using set of resin potted discrete
"Ladder DAC" modules. Are we supposed to accept that these DACs with
their luxury automobile price tags sound no different than a similar
product costing, in some cases, orders of magnitude less than these
products?


Maybe, maybe not. The only way to try is to listen. I will note,
however, that discrete construction is a spectacularly bad way of
making a hybrid component like a DAC: it's much harder to get the
accurate matching of components that you need.

The problem is that while I'm sure that audio groups, both formal
and informal, the world over have conducted DBT tests to determine
the audibility of digital to analog conversion, there seem to be no
definitive studies that once can cite.


Why should there be? It's not as if the distortion caused by
converters is special. There's no reason to believe that DAC
distortion will b audible at thresholds below distortion caused by any
other component.

Andrew.

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On Monday, October 28, 2013 5:27:08 AM UTC-7, Andrew Haley wrote:
Audio_Empire wrote:
=20
On Sunday, October 27, 2013 6:39:53 AM UTC-7, Andrew Haley wrote:

=20

=20
Surely, if a transparent DAC can be made for dollars, it makes sense

=20
to assert that any DAC which its not transparent is defective. I

=20
think I'd be quite happy to suggest that if two DACs can be

=20
distinguished by listening then at least one of them must be

=20
defective. Of course, I could be proved wrong by a properly-

=20
conducted blind test.

=20
Andrew.

=20
=20

=20
The problem here seems to be with the term "transparent".

=20
I'll define what I mean: any ADC/DAC that cannot be distinguished from
a piece of wire in a listening test is transparent.


Yes, that is the accepted definition. However, I can tell you, we aren't "t=
here"
yet. While that would be an impossible test to actually perform on a D/A
converter, the very fact that all D/A converters sound slightly different f=
rom=20
each other tells us that we aren't at that point (unless we can agree that=
=20
different pieces of wire "sound' different from each other - something that
I dare say that none of us is prepared to assert. =20

=20
And it may be that all current DAC chips are themselves so close to
perfect as to measure virtually identically. But there is more to a
commercially available DAC box than merely the D/A chip inside of
it. There are power supplies, filters, analog amplifiers, etc. There
are also designs that use one chip switching between right and left
channels on a "time-share" basis for stereo, while other use two
separate chips, one for each channel. Some designs utilizes many as
four D/A chips in a stereo dual differential configuration. Surely
these different design approaches are going to result in slightly
different presentations.

=20
Yes, but techniques exist in the world of instrumentation to reduce to
reduce artefacts way below thresholds of hearing. Audio is easy when=20
compared with, say, measuring nanoamps in a noisy electrical
environment, as in an atomic force microscope.


Good point. And while many modern electrical components do have specs
that put artifacts below the threshold of hearing (the LM49710 and equivale=
nt
family of op-amps come to mind here), not all devices made from such compon=
ents
have ALL of their artifacts banished to the realm of inaudibility -yet. I'm=
also
not convinced that ALL DAC designers are striving for complete transparency=
, but=20
are striving for designs that they think "sound good".=20
=20

On the very top-end of the market, many DAC designs utilize=20
proprietary D/A circuits built-up using discrete components,=20
eschewing the use of I.C.-based D/A chips altogether. Two of thee
that come to mind are the products of the British company dCS with
their proprietary "ring DAC" technology and MSB with their $40,000
DAC IV "Diamond" converter using set of resin potted discrete
"Ladder DAC" modules. Are we supposed to accept that these DACs with
their luxury automobile price tags sound no different than a similar=20
product costing, in some cases, orders of magnitude less than these
products?


Maybe, maybe not. The only way to try is to listen. I will note,
however, that discrete construction is a spectacularly bad way of
making a hybrid component like a DAC: it's much harder to get the
accurate matching of components that you need.


As a semiconductor engineer, I will say that theoretically, at least,
that is quite true. It is much easier to design and fabricate a=20
consistent monolithic circuit, where all the components of that circuit=20
share the same substrate than it is to use disparate discrete components.=
=20
The integrated circuit will be more consistent from unit to unit and easier
to control to a design specification. In fact, knowing what I know about
circuit design, I would venture to say, that a real high-end designer would
have better luck hand choosing IC parts than hand building discrete ones.
That is to say. It would be easier to test a bunch of DAC chips and choosin=
g
to use only those few out of any wafer start, which, for some reason, test
slightly better than the rest than to design such a circuit using separate=
=20
transistors resistors and capacitors.. This is called "binning" and it is d=
one=20
all the time for things like DSP chips, memory chips and microprocessors.=
=20
As good as modern IC processing is, there is always going to be some yield=
=20
variation. Many semiconductor companies bin their parts themselves, premium=
=20
pricing those that test to a higher set of specifications than do the avera=
ge part.=20

I think that companies who build their own DACs from scratch are playing on
a naivet=E9 on the part of the audiophile who might remember when ICs for=
=20
audio simply weren't very good for the application (709 op amps, anyone?).=
=20
I certainly remember when a decent microphone mixer used resin-potted,=20
discrete component op-amp modules to get the low noise demanded by=20
recording studios simply because Integrated Circuit op-amps couldn't cut=20
the mustard. Then again, maybe companies like MSB and dCS make their own=20
DACs these days simply to justify their astronomical prices. Whatever the r=
eason,=20
I suspect that hand selecting from a Burr-Brown or ESS SabreDAC (etc.) IC=
=20
product would give at least just as good of a performance as hand-tweaked,=
=20
hand-selected discrete component D/A converter modules. =20

The problem is that while I'm sure that audio groups, both formal
and informal, the world over have conducted DBT tests to determine
the audibility of digital to analog conversion, there seem to be no
definitive studies that once can cite.


Why should there be? It's not as if the distortion caused by=20
converters is special. There's no reason to believe that DAC
distortion will b audible at thresholds below distortion caused=20
by any other component.



I don't think that's the point. The point is that there are two equally pas=
sionate=20
schools of belief with regard to DACs. Once school says that all DACs are s=
o
different that one needs to choose one based on how they sound in one's=20
system. The other school of thought says that they all sound alike because
any criterion which would contribute to a DAC having a sound of its own is,=
=20
today, in modern designs, well below the threshold of audibility. This seco=
nd
school maintains that there is no reason to spend more than a few dollars (=
I
believe $40 was mentioned) on any DAC for that reason. One of those two cam=
ps=20
is wrong. Some definitive DBT results would do much to put this debate to b=
ed.=20
Yet audio researchers such as Lipschitz and Vanderkooy, or Meyer and Moran =
have=20
not undertaken to address this question. Indeed, a search of AES papers yie=
lds
no results that address this question in any direct way. That means while p=
eople
in the strictly objective camp can CLAIM (and some have done on this forum)=
that
DACs must sound the same because all artifacts have been rendered below aud=
ibility,=20
but they can produce no more proof that this is the case than can the most =
dyed-in-
the-wool subjectivist that All DACs sound different and that these differen=
ces aren't=20
subtle. I mean this isn't like the wire and cable sound "debate" where DBTs=
have=20
definitively laid to rest the question of whether interconnects and speaker=
cable=20
can have a "sound".=20
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