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Neil Gould Neil Gould is offline
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Gary Eickmeier wrote:
"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
...


But, you're doing precisely what is friend is doing: making
recordings without
a standardized reference.
--scott


OK, as I just told George, I have made the statement a few times here
and elsewhere that it ain't a recording until it gets played back,
and you can't tell what someone else that you send it to will hear on
it. This could open up a whole nuther side discussion, describing the
sound of a recording or the sound of some particular system.

Gary, I think you may be missing the point. Monitoring for recording has one
objective, ergo there are speakers that are optimized for that process.
Monitoring for mastering (e.g. your concept of "playback") has another.
Those with a lot of experience can extrapolate what they hear on the
recording monitors to get very close prior to mastering, because they know
what the mics they've chosen, placement they've used, etc. will deliver. In
the days of tape machines, you can add tape formulations, machine quirks,
etc. into that process.

I suspect that it is that level of experience that others have suggested
that you have yet to acquire.

--
best regards,

Neil


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Gary Eickmeier Gary Eickmeier is offline
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"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
...
Gary Eickmeier wrote:

But let's set that aside for a moment, and ask you what you are monitoring
on? What is your ultimate system?


I've already discussed that.

I am monitoring on a pair of NHT A-20s, a pair of Magnepans, and a pair
of junk Atlas whizzer-cone boxes, for different things. LEDE
configuration.
Room is okay, it's not too live and it's very diffuse, but it could
probably
benefit from even more bass absorption.

I tend to like the Magnepans but as I said earlier, they do not translate
very well to other speaker systems and I tend to use them because I have
a personal desire for a more distant presentation than the customers
usually
do; I like to sit back in the balcony.

This is not by any means either a typical or a high-end control room for
classical work and I would not recommend it for someone learning to mix
and track. It is built to deal with some of my personal handicaps.

My ultimate system would have more to do with the room than the speakers,
but I'd pick something like the Masterdisc room with the Griffin monitors.
Francis Manzella design, very very clean room. Sight lines aren't very
good
but the sound is excellent, and these days video monitoring is making the
need for good sight lines into tracking space less important.
--scott


Thanks. I like the Maggies but caution you to not kill the backwave with
more absorption but rather use it for what it was designed for. If placed
properly and not killed, you get some delayed versions of the primary sound
behind and beside the actual speakers, which help flesh out (unmask) the
depth and spaciousness that is (hopefully) in your recordings. If placed
improperly, too close to any wall, those same reflections will destroy the
imaging in ways that I have described.

Gary Eickmeier


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Gary Eickmeier Gary Eickmeier is offline
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"Neil Gould" wrote in message
...
Gary Eickmeier wrote:
"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
...


But, you're doing precisely what is friend is doing: making
recordings without
a standardized reference.
--scott


OK, as I just told George, I have made the statement a few times here
and elsewhere that it ain't a recording until it gets played back,
and you can't tell what someone else that you send it to will hear on
it. This could open up a whole nuther side discussion, describing the
sound of a recording or the sound of some particular system.

Gary, I think you may be missing the point. Monitoring for recording has
one
objective, ergo there are speakers that are optimized for that process.
Monitoring for mastering (e.g. your concept of "playback") has another.
Those with a lot of experience can extrapolate what they hear on the
recording monitors to get very close prior to mastering, because they know
what the mics they've chosen, placement they've used, etc. will deliver.
In
the days of tape machines, you can add tape formulations, machine quirks,
etc. into that process.

I suspect that it is that level of experience that others have suggested
that you have yet to acquire.


Yes, I do the same thing, but after it's all over with I take the finished
product out into the listening room and listen for the effects that I think
my techniques should have in the mike placement etc. In particular, I love
the sense of space that the best recordings can relate. I also understand a
recording engineer's need to hear only what the channels are doing and
balance them by listening to more nearfield monitors so you can better "hear
the microphones." Don't know if there is a term for it, but that is how I
would describe the process. It doesn't tell you how it will sound on the
best home systems, but if your experience is of any benefit, you know what
will happen thru the various playback systems, including iPods and cars.

Gary Eickmeier


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Gary Eickmeier Gary Eickmeier is offline
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"Luxey" wrote in message
...
On Tuesday, 8 October 2013 17:22:28 UTC+2, Gary Eickmeier wrote:

... If I am successful with some more recordings with my various
techniques in a decent venue with this concert band I will send you a
disc again.


Gary, why don't you upload couple of minutes somewhere?


OK, I have been thinking about that - might be good for us all to do
occasionally. What site do people use for just general file up and
downloading - Dropbox? Yousendit? I have tried Google Drive and I hate it.

Gary


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Scott Dorsey Scott Dorsey is offline
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Gary Eickmeier wrote:

Thanks. I like the Maggies but caution you to not kill the backwave with
more absorption but rather use it for what it was designed for. If placed
properly and not killed, you get some delayed versions of the primary sound
behind and beside the actual speakers, which help flesh out (unmask) the
depth and spaciousness that is (hopefully) in your recordings. If placed
improperly, too close to any wall, those same reflections will destroy the
imaging in ways that I have described.


You haven't listened to a single thing I have said about the actual
purpose of accurate monitoring and translation, have you?
--scott


--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."


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hank alrich hank alrich is offline
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Gary Eickmeier wrote:

Thanks. I like the Maggies but caution you to not kill the backwave with
more absorption but rather use it for what it was designed for.


There you go again. You're new here, and you haven't done your homework.
You do NOT need to be cautioning Scott Dorsey about any damn thing.

This is the very root of my problem with you: you are surprisngly
ignorant, too lazy to figure out who hangs here and what they've done,
and very much too certain that you "know stuff".

You might as well be talking out your ass.

Oh, wait€¦

--
shut up and play your guitar * HankAlrich.Com
HankandShaidriMusic.Com
YouTube.Com/WalkinayMusic
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hank alrich hank alrich is offline
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Scott Dorsey wrote:

Gary Eickmeier wrote:

Thanks. I like the Maggies but caution you to not kill the backwave with
more absorption but rather use it for what it was designed for. If placed
properly and not killed, you get some delayed versions of the primary sound
behind and beside the actual speakers, which help flesh out (unmask) the
depth and spaciousness that is (hopefully) in your recordings. If placed
improperly, too close to any wall, those same reflections will destroy the
imaging in ways that I have described.


You haven't listened to a single thing I have said about the actual
purpose of accurate monitoring and translation, have you?
--scott


Of course not. With his head up his ass he can stil talk, but is not
able to listen. In fact, he seems unable even to realize someone else is
talking.

--
shut up and play your guitar * HankAlrich.Com
HankandShaidriMusic.Com
YouTube.Com/WalkinayMusic
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Tobiah Tobiah is offline
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I made you a little uploader. RAP, feel free
to share files here. Just don't abuse it please.

http://tobiah.org/rap_upload/

Tobiah

I have been thinking about that - might be good for us all to do
occasionally. What site do people use for just general file up and
downloading - Dropbox? Yousendit? I have tried Google Drive and I hate it.



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George Graves George Graves is offline
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In article , "Trevor"
wrote:

"George Graves" wrote in message
...
Fair enough. I have known more than few recording engineers and producers
from the "4300" era. The "rockers" seemed to like the speakers well enough,
those recording classical and jazz were fairly universal in their disdain
for the speakers. I should have made clear that *I" think they were terribly
inaccurate and my opinion was shared by many. Since this is an informal NG,
I didn't think it was necessary to be that precise in giving my opinion.

--------------------------

Well it would certainly help reduce arguments. I have always favoured big
JBL's for rock and roll, but wouldn't dream of using them for a string
quartet! OTOH the big models are just fine for pipe organ, but not so the
smaller models. Just as you wouldn't use a LS3/5A for that either!
Horses for courses.

Trevor.


Agreed. This is what I have found to be the case as well. Big JBLs seem to work fine for rock. Of course, one can always use EQ (as you pointed out in another post) to fix at least some of the problems in the studio. But as a "visitor" to these studios that was not my concern.
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Tobiah Tobiah is offline
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Tobiah - I think I lost the Email on which I described the features etc to
you. Might have it at work, but could you re-post that here from your
computer?


Here is you letter:

Hi Tobiah -

This thing is amazing! The cleverest piece of industrial design and engineering I have seen in a long time. The ergonomics, the
features, the specs all top notch. I would have to go thru the manual to remember all of them, but let me just relate some of my
surprises off the top.

It doesn't have just "meters," which was my biggest complaint on the R16 (the four element meters) - it has a small, full color
monitor that all of the functions are manipulated on. It can actually change the digital meters to analog needles display! You can
set all parameters about all six channels individually, such as monioring mix or output mix, the panning. levels, all of the
parameters that you would set in a mixer before taking a 2 channel mixdown straight out of the recorder. You also want to set these
parameters while recording so that you can tell that the channelization is correct etc. Like the H2n, it can record MS stereo with
settings for the mix between M and S, and also RAW. But in the RAW mode, you can make the H6 do the mix for you and specify the MS
parameters right in the recorder and vary it as desired! I believe in the past we have had to get an external box to mix MS or
concoct our own or do it manually on the computer as I did. The XY capsule can be set to 90 or 120 degrees.

I believe the specs are much better than all previous models, like it says 120dB noise figures, which I don't care if they are off
by 20 I don't think I have an environment quiet enough to record in that anyone could tell.

You can do overdubs, it has the -12 dB safety track, it has an adjustable compressor and/or limiter, some degree of EQ for low cut.
All of these sophisticated digital recorder and mixer console features in a box no bigger than a VHS cassette and get this - it has
a function that can check the error rate on your SDHC memory card! You start it with the record button, it slowly reads the whole
card and checks it for errors so you won't lose an important session.

I am going to try it out tonight with music. It is a lousy venue with an air conditioner from hell, but I will at least get some
practice using it. I will simply put up my mikes, hang some cables down to the recorder, and plug them in with no need for any other
interfaces. I will record two tracks in stereo with the internal mikes*, both the XY and MS, along with the 3 or 4 XLR inputs from
my good mikes. I will be able to monitor any and all tracks individually. I could pair two of the XLR inputs as a stereo track, but
I think I will be using my 3 mike technique again that I have had some really good results with.

I was going to wait until I had made a music recording to post something in the group, but thanks for showing an interest! If you
are at a buying decision I would say run don't walk

Please feel free to repost this to the group if you wish.

* Provided I bring a stand for the recorder to sit on

Gary



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Gary Eickmeier Gary Eickmeier is offline
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"hank alrich" wrote in message
...
Gary Eickmeier wrote:

Thanks. I like the Maggies but caution you to not kill the backwave with
more absorption but rather use it for what it was designed for.


There you go again. You're new here, and you haven't done your homework.
You do NOT need to be cautioning Scott Dorsey about any damn thing.

This is the very root of my problem with you: you are surprisngly
ignorant, too lazy to figure out who hangs here and what they've done,
and very much too certain that you "know stuff".

You might as well be talking out your ass.

Oh, wait.


Well, it sure has been a pleasure getting to know you.

Gary


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Gary Eickmeier Gary Eickmeier is offline
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"Tobiah" wrote in message
...
I made you a little uploader. RAP, feel free
to share files here. Just don't abuse it please.

http://tobiah.org/rap_upload/

Tobiah

I have been thinking about that - might be good for us all to do
occasionally. What site do people use for just general file up and
downloading - Dropbox? Yousendit? I have tried Google Drive and I hate
it.


Thanks Tobiah. At the moment, my computer seems to have a gremlin in it that
causes the CD and DVD drive doors to open and not shut. Some virus or app
that got downloaded. I may still be able to MP3 some sound section for
upload, but I am concentrating on fixing the computer right now.

Gary


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Gary Eickmeier Gary Eickmeier is offline
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"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
...
Gary Eickmeier wrote:

Thanks. I like the Maggies but caution you to not kill the backwave with
more absorption but rather use it for what it was designed for. If placed
properly and not killed, you get some delayed versions of the primary
sound
behind and beside the actual speakers, which help flesh out (unmask) the
depth and spaciousness that is (hopefully) in your recordings. If placed
improperly, too close to any wall, those same reflections will destroy the
imaging in ways that I have described.


You haven't listened to a single thing I have said about the actual
purpose of accurate monitoring and translation, have you?
--scott


Well, I'm sorry you feel that way. I have absorbed every word you have said,
but it is not the first time I have heard it, so I hope you don't imagine
you are revealing anything to me. What you HAVE revealed to me are miking
techniques and tricks of the trade in recording, and I have listened to the
extent of buying the Streicher book and learning some interesting things
about MS and a few of the closely spaced cardioid techniques. We have
discussed the pickup patterns of said cardioids and frequency response at
the edges of their patterns. I have thought a lot about that, and modified
my mastering techniques to allow for that.

In short, you have been a friendly, helpful source that I trust because you
are not a bull****ter bragging about himself and putting others down. This
is sure a hold no prisoners group, which I think I can handle, having been
among audio people for some time now. Everyone has an opinion about
everything - and I am one of them.

Gary


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Gary Eickmeier Gary Eickmeier is offline
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Well, I may not have the right idea on your uploader yet. I uploaded my
music clip, but then how do I send it to the group? It just vanished into
the cloud somewhere.

Oh well. I have Yousendit as well, so I uploaded it to them, and what they
do is send me or whatever recipient an email with the download link. So
let's see if this works:

https://www.hightail.com/dl?phi_acti... 7a05d925f2bf

Some day I may learn how to use Tinyurl, but for now let's just see if that
works.

This is not intended as an example of the highest level of recording arts
and sciences. It is just my first outing to my concert band for this year.
This was a cold read from a new piece, West Side Story, which they have
decided not to do on concert day anywat. I am using my Three Card(ioid)
Monte technique for the first time, recording thru the Yamaha mixer to the
Tascam DR-07, editing in Audition and compressing to MP3 at 224 k. Comments
welcome, scathing criticism not so much.

Gary Eickmeier




"Gary Eickmeier" wrote in message
...

"Tobiah" wrote in message
...
I made you a little uploader. RAP, feel free
to share files here. Just don't abuse it please.

http://tobiah.org/rap_upload/

Tobiah

I have been thinking about that - might be good for us all to do
occasionally. What site do people use for just general file up and
downloading - Dropbox? Yousendit? I have tried Google Drive and I hate
it.


Thanks Tobiah. At the moment, my computer seems to have a gremlin in it
that causes the CD and DVD drive doors to open and not shut. Some virus or
app that got downloaded. I may still be able to MP3 some sound section for
upload, but I am concentrating on fixing the computer right now.

Gary




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Peter Larsen[_3_] Peter Larsen[_3_] is offline
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Gary Eickmeier wrote:

https://www.hightail.com/dl?phi_acti... 7a05d925f2bf

Worked fine.

I think you need to listen more for the front to back musical balance in the
ensemble. On floor standing KEF Q50's the rear of the ensemble is too weak
and the bass-drum is "puny", in this small room it should be overwhelming.
Perhaps you need to elevate your mics somewhat more. Doing that also adds
more room.

Spatiality is poor and confused, just as it was when I made quite similar
experiments in 1982. The special case of moving all capsules to an emulated
point is a valid stereo zoom microphone. However what it is about is to get
something "less cardioid" and it sounds plain better to use high quality
subcardioids as in http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYukGHPRX5Y

I submit that Brucks sputnik can do more for you, also with only one rear
facing mic, but note: you have to get your mix in post right, it is required
to record on as many tracks as you use mics, you can not make such a mix as
a live location mix to 2-track.

Gary Eickmeier


Kind regards

Peter Larsen






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Audio_Empire Audio_Empire is offline
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In article ,
"Gary Eickmeier" wrote:

Well, I may not have the right idea on your uploader yet. I uploaded my
music clip, but then how do I send it to the group? It just vanished into
the cloud somewhere.

Oh well. I have Yousendit as well, so I uploaded it to them, and what they
do is send me or whatever recipient an email with the download link. So
let's see if this works:

https://www.hightail.com/dl?phi_acti...url=https%3A%2
F%2Fwww.hightail.com%2Ftransfer.php%3Faction%3Dbat ch_download%26send_id%3D2350
966307%26email%3Da8ec356ff3015b1f7d0c7a05d925f2bf

Some day I may learn how to use Tinyurl, but for now let's just see if that
works.

This is not intended as an example of the highest level of recording arts
and sciences. It is just my first outing to my concert band for this year.
This was a cold read from a new piece, West Side Story, which they have
decided not to do on concert day anywat. I am using my Three Card(ioid)
Monte technique for the first time, recording thru the Yamaha mixer to the
Tascam DR-07, editing in Audition and compressing to MP3 at 224 k. Comments
welcome, scathing criticism not so much.

Gary Eickmeier


Gary,

Nothing could possibly be simpler than tinyurl.

First, you copy the long URL to your computer's clip-board

Then you go to:

http://tinyurl.com/create.php

Then you paste the long URL into the window marked: "Enter another long
URL to make tiny:"

Then hit the button marked "Make tinyurl"

Voila! , It's done

BTW, the tiny URL for the 205 character URL you give above, is:

http://tinyurl.com/keqnteq

Hope this helps.

--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ---
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George Graves George Graves is offline
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On Thursday, October 10, 2013 9:03:56 AM UTC-7, Peter Larsen wrote:
Gary Eickmeier wrote:



https://www.hightail.com/dl?phi_acti... 7a05d925f2bf



Worked fine.



I think you need to listen more for the front to back musical balance in the

ensemble. On floor standing KEF Q50's the rear of the ensemble is too weak

and the bass-drum is "puny", in this small room it should be overwhelming.

Perhaps you need to elevate your mics somewhat more. Doing that also adds

more room.


I don't know which to blame for the "puny" bass drum, the room in which the
recording was made, the way it was being played, or Gary's unconventional
microphone technique. The weak rear ensemble is almost certainly the result
of the mikes being too close to the floor (I'm guessing, here but it's an educated
guess).

Spatiality is poor and confused, just as it was when I made quite similar
experiments in 1982.


That's down to the microphone arrangement, I believe. I told Gary this when he sent
me a CD with some of this rehearsal on it (I'm assuming it's the same session).
If I understand him correctly, he used three cardioids in close proximity to one
another arranged with the center one facing the ensemble (like for a mono
recording, and then two other cardioids a few inches to the right and left of
the center mike, with each aimed at the room's sidewalls (I.E., 90 degrees to
the forward-facing cardioid capsule), thus presenting the EDGE of the "side-
firing" capsules to the ensemble. I suspect that this arrangement would
probably provide for a very spacious sounding recording, but very poor stereo
from the standpoint of image specificity. When I heard the recording, I was
actually surprised at the amount of separation I heard. I noticed that when only
a couple of instruments were playing, they actually appeared on the right or the
left of the ensemble, but when a lot of instruments were playing, it just seemed
to be this phase-y, and confused swirl of sound. I suspect that the strong
directionality one hears when only a few instruments are playing is because
what one is actually hearing is the primary reflection off of the side walls of
the recording venue and as the instrumentation becomes more dense. reflections
from all over the room, mix with the direct mono sound from the center mike,
causing the confused spatiality that we both noticed. Of course, I wasn't
there, and don't know what the venue looked like, physically, so my diagnosis
could be all wet. But if that's the case, then I can not begin to tell you what is
actually at work here...

George Graves
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Scott Dorsey Scott Dorsey is offline
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Gary Eickmeier wrote:
"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
Gary Eickmeier wrote:

Thanks. I like the Maggies but caution you to not kill the backwave with
more absorption but rather use it for what it was designed for. If placed
properly and not killed, you get some delayed versions of the primary
sound
behind and beside the actual speakers, which help flesh out (unmask) the
depth and spaciousness that is (hopefully) in your recordings. If placed
improperly, too close to any wall, those same reflections will destroy the
imaging in ways that I have described.


You haven't listened to a single thing I have said about the actual
purpose of accurate monitoring and translation, have you?


Well, I'm sorry you feel that way. I have absorbed every word you have said,
but it is not the first time I have heard it, so I hope you don't imagine
you are revealing anything to me. What you HAVE revealed to me are miking
techniques and tricks of the trade in recording, and I have listened to the
extent of buying the Streicher book and learning some interesting things
about MS and a few of the closely spaced cardioid techniques. We have
discussed the pickup patterns of said cardioids and frequency response at
the edges of their patterns. I have thought a lot about that, and modified
my mastering techniques to allow for that.


If you don't have good translation, you can't do any of that. The whole
point of the room setup in a control booth is to get an accurate translation
to standardized playback systems. Do you get that?

In short, you have been a friendly, helpful source that I trust because you
are not a bull****ter bragging about himself and putting others down. This
is sure a hold no prisoners group, which I think I can handle, having been
among audio people for some time now. Everyone has an opinion about
everything - and I am one of them.


Because we say these things, and they are just simple, fundamental things
that are basic to the understanding of the whole process, and they seem to
go into one ear and come out the other. You need to spend some time in an
actual studio and see how monitoring works and how engineers use it.

My particular monitoring system is weird, and it's based around some
particular oddities of my own, and should not in any way be used as an
example. I spent many decades mixing on big horn systems before I came
to this point.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
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Scott Dorsey wrote:

The whole point of the room setup in a control booth is to get an accurate
translation to standardized playback systems.


Which is why such facilities are called "control" booths or rooms.
Spurious information is to be _controlled_ to the extent possible in the
given setting.

I wish Gary would set aside his intensely-held preconceptions and get
with a program that would allow him to grasp what virtually every
professional audio practitioner I have ever known, or read here or
elswhere, knows from theory and practice.

If one enjoys listening to music over 901's, no problem. When one
attempts to insist they can be deployed successfully where accuracy is a
goal, as in a legit control room, one blows bullet holes in both feet.
This is not marksmanship.

--
shut up and play your guitar * HankAlrich.Com
HankandShaidriMusic.Com
YouTube.Com/WalkinayMusic
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"Peter Larsen" wrote in message
...
Gary Eickmeier wrote:

https://www.hightail.com/dl?phi_acti... 7a05d925f2bf

Worked fine.

I think you need to listen more for the front to back musical balance in
the ensemble. On floor standing KEF Q50's the rear of the ensemble is too
weak and the bass-drum is "puny", in this small room it should be
overwhelming. Perhaps you need to elevate your mics somewhat more. Doing
that also adds more room.

Spatiality is poor and confused, just as it was when I made quite similar
experiments in 1982. The special case of moving all capsules to an
emulated point is a valid stereo zoom microphone. However what it is about
is to get something "less cardioid" and it sounds plain better to use high
quality subcardioids as in http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYukGHPRX5Y

I submit that Brucks sputnik can do more for you, also with only one rear
facing mic, but note: you have to get your mix in post right, it is
required to record on as many tracks as you use mics, you can not make
such a mix as a live location mix to 2-track.


Yes thanks Peter. Agree. This was a smaller room, and I didn't have any high
stands, not knowing the room before I came out anyway. So I am both too
close to the front of the group and too low to even it all out. That will
not happen at the real concert in a proper hall.

Also agree on the ad hoc mix that is necessary if you are going to 2 track.
That is why I want to record multitrack, so I can fix some perspective in
post. In this example I am leaving all three gains set equal, so there may
be too much center fill. I am working on that now with some recordings from
the R16 multitrack and of course the new H6 Zoom - about which I wish to
start another thread for a full report. It is worthy of it.

Gary




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"George Graves" wrote in message
...

That's down to the microphone arrangement, I believe. I told Gary this
when he sent
me a CD with some of this rehearsal on it (I'm assuming it's the same
session).
If I understand him correctly, he used three cardioids in close proximity
to one
another arranged with the center one facing the ensemble (like for a mono
recording, and then two other cardioids a few inches to the right and left
of
the center mike, with each aimed at the room's sidewalls (I.E., 90 degrees
to
the forward-facing cardioid capsule), thus presenting the EDGE of the
"side-
firing" capsules to the ensemble. I suspect that this arrangement would
probably provide for a very spacious sounding recording, but very poor
stereo
from the standpoint of image specificity. When I heard the recording, I
was
actually surprised at the amount of separation I heard. I noticed that
when only
a couple of instruments were playing, they actually appeared on the right
or the
left of the ensemble, but when a lot of instruments were playing, it just
seemed
to be this phase-y, and confused swirl of sound. I suspect that the strong
directionality one hears when only a few instruments are playing is
because
what one is actually hearing is the primary reflection off of the side
walls of
the recording venue and as the instrumentation becomes more dense.
reflections
from all over the room, mix with the direct mono sound from the center
mike,
causing the confused spatiality that we both noticed. Of course, I wasn't
there, and don't know what the venue looked like, physically, so my
diagnosis
could be all wet. But if that's the case, then I can not begin to tell you
what is
actually at work here...

George Graves


Pretty good analysis. My mastering is probably more of the problem than the
mike technique. I have learned a bit more about that this year. Recording
this technique in multichannel gives me a lot more control and I can see and
adjust precisely the balance among all three channels. I have recently also
tried canting the outer mikes a tad toward center as well, just to honor
what you are saying about freq response of cardioids. Also of course don't
want too much contribution from the center mike. Doing it by ear agrees a
lot with just setting its level 4 or 5 dB below the other two channels in
the mixdown.

My side mikes are about a foot apart, the center one is like 10 inches ahead
of the others. I found that my "invention" has been invented before, by
Gunther Thiele, as the OCT technique, Optimized Cardioid Triangle. He uses
the side ones at 40 to 90 cm apart and the front one 8 cm ahead of those on
a T-bar just like I am doing. The theory is that the spacing of the side
mikes gives more spaciousness than if they were coincident. I am not totally
convinced, because I have heard some amazing space in your work and one
other friend up in Michigan who is an MS expert.

Another thing you didn't mention was the spaced omni samples I sent you on
that disc, which sounded to both of us like tubby bass. My TCM or OCT
technique amazed me in that respect, how tight the bass became with the
directional mikes as opposed to the omnis, and that plus the unfortunate
wall about 5 ft behind my line of microphones, reflecting even more
repetitions of those bass freqs. So that is another reason I tried the
directionals.

Gary


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"Audio_Empire" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Gary Eickmeier" wrote:

Well, I may not have the right idea on your uploader yet. I uploaded my
music clip, but then how do I send it to the group? It just vanished into
the cloud somewhere.

Oh well. I have Yousendit as well, so I uploaded it to them, and what
they
do is send me or whatever recipient an email with the download link. So
let's see if this works:

https://www.hightail.com/dl?phi_acti...url=https%3A%2
F%2Fwww.hightail.com%2Ftransfer.php%3Faction%3Dbat ch_download%26send_id%3D2350
966307%26email%3Da8ec356ff3015b1f7d0c7a05d925f2bf

Some day I may learn how to use Tinyurl, but for now let's just see if
that
works.

This is not intended as an example of the highest level of recording arts
and sciences. It is just my first outing to my concert band for this
year.
This was a cold read from a new piece, West Side Story, which they have
decided not to do on concert day anywat. I am using my Three Card(ioid)
Monte technique for the first time, recording thru the Yamaha mixer to
the
Tascam DR-07, editing in Audition and compressing to MP3 at 224 k.
Comments
welcome, scathing criticism not so much.

Gary Eickmeier


Gary,

Nothing could possibly be simpler than tinyurl.

First, you copy the long URL to your computer's clip-board

Then you go to:

http://tinyurl.com/create.php

Then you paste the long URL into the window marked: "Enter another long
URL to make tiny:"

Then hit the button marked "Make tinyurl"

Voila! , It's done

BTW, the tiny URL for the 205 character URL you give above, is:

http://tinyurl.com/keqnteq

Hope this helps.


OK, yes, I knew it was probably easy, just never had a great need for it
before. I hope that more of us will send clips to the group, and if they
have video too that shows the mikes that would be super. You know the
chamber stuff we were talking about that imaged so unvelievably with just
the little Zoom H2n? I have that on video, and it shows the mike
beautifully. I will try and show it.

Gary


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Gary Eickmeier wrote:

My side mikes are about a foot apart, the center one is like 10
inches ahead of the others. I found that my "invention" has been
invented before, by Gunther Thiele, as the OCT technique, Optimized
Cardioid Triangle. He uses the side ones at 40 to 90 cm apart and the
front one 8 cm ahead of those on a T-bar just like I am doing.


You're probably better off using an omni center microphone, that's when the
system math begins to make sense even if the microphones are not coincident.

Gary


Kind regards

Peter Larsen


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On Sun, 6 Oct 2013 06:42:26 -0700, Scott Dorsey wrote
(in article ):

No! The idea predates Blumlein, even! The famous stereo demo of April 27,
1933 used a center channel, after Bell Labs engineers spent considerable
amount of time testing various configurations of miking with two and three
channels, playback with two and three channels, and matrixing three channel
audio for transmission over two channels.
------------------------------snip------------------------------


OK, duly noted. But my point is the same: the concept of a center channel
speaker goes back 90 years. And it is important to prevent the "hole in the
middle" balance problem from bad listening positions.

--MFW

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On Mon, 7 Oct 2013 17:26:43 -0700, Scott Dorsey wrote
(in article ):

I never much liked the 4311s, but I have never really used the newer
JBL monitors. Has anyone heard the new M2 models? There was a sort-of
underground demo at the last AES show but I didn't get a chance to
hear them for myself at all.
------------------------------snip------------------------------


The relatively-recent JBL LSR speakers have pretty much become the standard
for small-to-medium room mixing all over LA. They actually sound pretty
good, particularly the LSR-4300's. These are widely being used for TV sound
mixing:

http://www.jblpro.com/products/recor...ast/index.html

Haven't heard the M2's, but I have heard the JBL Screen Arrays for film
sound, and they're surprisingly good:

http://www.jblpro.com/catalog/genera...x?FId=91&MID=1

The JBL of the last 10-15 years is a far cry from the company of the 1980s.
What always surprised me about the 4311's is that they sounded very different
in different years, like the company was quietly changing the speaker without
a model designation. I agree, it was not a good-sounding speaker, but you
couldn't find a video mastering room that *didn't* use the 4311's in LA
during the 1980s and early 1990s.

--MFW



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Marc Wielage wrote:
On Sun, 6 Oct 2013 06:42:26 -0700, Scott Dorsey wrote
(in article ):

No! The idea predates Blumlein, even! The famous stereo demo of April 27,
1933 used a center channel, after Bell Labs engineers spent considerable
amount of time testing various configurations of miking with two and three
channels, playback with two and three channels, and matrixing three channel
audio for transmission over two channels.


OK, duly noted. But my point is the same: the concept of a center channel
speaker goes back 90 years. And it is important to prevent the "hole in the
middle" balance problem from bad listening positions.


Yes, but read the paper! _Everything_ related to three-channel use is in
there, including upmatrixing and downmatrixing and listening tests. It is
very very cool! The effect you describe is specifically addressed! You
will just boggle at the amount of careful work put into this stuff by the
Bell Labs team in preparation for a single demo.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
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I almost don't know where to begin. You are correct in that more expensive equipment yields better results, but the real question is: is that last bit of improvement in quality worth the difference in price? I say no, provided that you want a device that will do what the Zoom h6 does.

This device functions exactly as it is purported to. The quality of an actual recording from this device is remarkably high, and I don't believe a quantifiably 1% improvement is worth the much greater expense.

We now live in a world where remotes for national news casts are recorded on sub-$1k devices, and almost all audio is compressed before final distribution. The artifacts from 192kbps mp3 or aac are much more noticeable than the noise from the preamps in this device.

If you have the money to spend on equipment like you mentioned, then you can certainly afford the $400 this thing costs; so, give it a try.
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Default Zoom H6

Zoom H6 hold permanently on.
Device inoperative. Switch seems fine.
Software bug?
Can anyone help?
Thanks,
Adrian Moore )
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On Saturday, September 28, 2013 at 5:58:43 PM UTC-5, Gary Eickmeier wrote:
Check this out:

https://www.zoom-na.com/

The most amazing recorder I have yet seen. I could get rid of my mixer,
multichannel recorder (Zoom R16) and my battery powered Phantom power
supply. It is a six channel recorder and full studio in a box!

Gary Eickmeier


um hi


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On Saturday, September 28, 2013 at 5:58:43 PM UTC-5, Gary Eickmeier wrote:
Check this out:

https://www.zoom-na.com/

The most amazing recorder I have yet seen. I could get rid of my mixer,
multichannel recorder (Zoom R16) and my battery powered Phantom power
supply. It is a six channel recorder and full studio in a box!

Gary Eickmeier


ummmmm hiiiiii
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