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#1
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Real Deal Tube Preamp...Is It Worth It?
hello. recently, i've been reading about real tube preamps vs
inexpensive tube simulators (like the art stuff). i know that the peavey vmp-2 is considered a "real" tube preamp, and it's affordable...but i can't find one. i'd really like to get that "real" class-a tube preamp sound...but the stuff by avalon and manley is out of my price range. now i have a few questions that i'm hoping some experienced members might be able to help me out with: is the peavey tmp-1 considered a "real" tube preamp like the vmp-2? should i bail on the "real" tube thing and get a presonus mp20 (with saturation simulation)? how is the presonus mp20 when it comes to getting that "real" tube sound, despite the lack of tubes? how about the bellari rp220...is that a "real" tube preamp? ahhhh! |
#2
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"jon" wrote:
hello. recently, i've been reading about real tube preamps vs inexpensive tube simulators (like the art stuff). i know that the peavey vmp-2 is considered a "real" tube preamp, and it's affordable...but i can't find one. i'd really like to get that "real" class-a tube preamp sound...but the stuff by avalon and manley is out of my price range. now i have a few questions that i'm hoping some experienced members might be able to help me out with: is the peavey tmp-1 considered a "real" tube preamp like the vmp-2? should i bail on the "real" tube thing and get a presonus mp20 (with saturation simulation)? how is the presonus mp20 when it comes to getting that "real" tube sound, despite the lack of tubes? how about the bellari rp220...is that a "real" tube preamp? ahhhh! http://groups.google.com/groups?as_e....pro&lr=&hl=en -jw |
#3
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"jon" wrote:
hello. recently, i've been reading about real tube preamps vs inexpensive tube simulators (like the art stuff). i know that the peavey vmp-2 is considered a "real" tube preamp, and it's affordable...but i can't find one. i'd really like to get that "real" class-a tube preamp sound...but the stuff by avalon and manley is out of my price range. now i have a few questions that i'm hoping some experienced members might be able to help me out with: is the peavey tmp-1 considered a "real" tube preamp like the vmp-2? should i bail on the "real" tube thing and get a presonus mp20 (with saturation simulation)? how is the presonus mp20 when it comes to getting that "real" tube sound, despite the lack of tubes? how about the bellari rp220...is that a "real" tube preamp? ahhhh! http://groups.google.com/groups?as_e....pro&lr=&hl=en -jw |
#4
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jonathandowns: i'd really like to get that "real"
class-a tube preamp sound...but the stuff by avalon and manley is out of my price range. You're right: the real tube pre's are expensive and I think you would need to spend that kind of money to make it worthwhile and actually hear the difference. And that difference may not be significant to you. I'm not sure of current prices, but you could look around for an old Altec 1566A. They used to be quite cheap. They can sound very good as long as you don't drive them into a true 600 ohm input. If you can pick one of these up at a good price, you will get some idea of what tubes sound like. |
#5
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jonathandowns: i'd really like to get that "real"
class-a tube preamp sound...but the stuff by avalon and manley is out of my price range. You're right: the real tube pre's are expensive and I think you would need to spend that kind of money to make it worthwhile and actually hear the difference. And that difference may not be significant to you. I'm not sure of current prices, but you could look around for an old Altec 1566A. They used to be quite cheap. They can sound very good as long as you don't drive them into a true 600 ohm input. If you can pick one of these up at a good price, you will get some idea of what tubes sound like. |
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#7
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#8
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#9
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#10
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Tim Perry wrote:
"Mike Rivers" wrote in message news:znr1095460538k@trad... In article writes: should i bail on the "real" tube thing and get a presonus mp20 (with saturation simulation)? how is the presonus mp20 when it comes to getting that "real" tube sound, despite the lack of tubes? how about the bellari rp220...is that a "real" tube preamp? ahhhh! What's the "real" tube sound anyway? It's really a "transformer" sound without very much distortion in the amplifier stage. Why not just get a nice sounding preamp? And if you already have one, just get a crappy sounding preamp so you'll have some variety. Don't mess with tricks. you could always build one. get a cigar box (or maybe for variety use those cool Neumann wood storage boxes and a hand full of parts. plug in a 12AX7A and your all set Be sure & poke a bunch of holes in the front so the tube is visible. That way you can see how good it sounds. |
#11
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Tim Perry wrote:
"Mike Rivers" wrote in message news:znr1095460538k@trad... In article writes: should i bail on the "real" tube thing and get a presonus mp20 (with saturation simulation)? how is the presonus mp20 when it comes to getting that "real" tube sound, despite the lack of tubes? how about the bellari rp220...is that a "real" tube preamp? ahhhh! What's the "real" tube sound anyway? It's really a "transformer" sound without very much distortion in the amplifier stage. Why not just get a nice sounding preamp? And if you already have one, just get a crappy sounding preamp so you'll have some variety. Don't mess with tricks. you could always build one. get a cigar box (or maybe for variety use those cool Neumann wood storage boxes and a hand full of parts. plug in a 12AX7A and your all set Be sure & poke a bunch of holes in the front so the tube is visible. That way you can see how good it sounds. |
#13
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FWIW, There really isn't a good or bad tube preamp, only different. Buy the
one that has the sound you hear and want. Consider, the s/n, distortion levels, sensitivity, character as relates to "smooth, warm, harsh, etc", bucks, reliability and other factors. Then you will determine whether it's a "good" or "bad" toob preamp. If everybody liked the same preamp, there would only be one preamp, but alas, we is different. Wayne (I'm going back to sleep now) Tim Perry wrote: "Mike Rivers" wrote in message news:znr1095460538k@trad... In article writes: should i bail on the "real" tube thing and get a presonus mp20 (with saturation simulation)? how is the presonus mp20 when it comes to getting that "real" tube sound, despite the lack of tubes? how about the bellari rp220...is that a "real" tube preamp? ahhhh! What's the "real" tube sound anyway? It's really a "transformer" sound without very much distortion in the amplifier stage. Why not just get a nice sounding preamp? And if you already have one, just get a crappy sounding preamp so you'll have some variety. Don't mess with tricks. you could always build one. get a cigar box (or maybe for variety use those cool Neumann wood storage boxes and a hand full of parts. plug in a 12AX7A and your all set Be sure & poke a bunch of holes in the front so the tube is visible. That way you can see how good it sounds. |
#14
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jon wrote:
should i bail on the "real" tube thing and get a presonus mp20 (with saturation simulation)? how is the presonus mp20 when it comes to getting that "real" tube sound, despite the lack of tubes? How about just getting a real preamp, period? The RNP from FMR gives you two channels of that for under five hundred dollars. Work with that awhile and see how you do. It's good enough that if what you put infront of it sounds like you want it to sound, the RNP won't damage that sound. how about the bellari rp220...is that a "real" tube preamp? ahhhh! Yes, it is a real cheap real tube preamp, and works like a preamp with very low output mics. With regular mics it distorts like mad right up front at the input transformer. It can ge good for dirty sounds with regular mics, but it doesn't do clean very well with those. -- ha |
#15
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jon wrote:
should i bail on the "real" tube thing and get a presonus mp20 (with saturation simulation)? how is the presonus mp20 when it comes to getting that "real" tube sound, despite the lack of tubes? How about just getting a real preamp, period? The RNP from FMR gives you two channels of that for under five hundred dollars. Work with that awhile and see how you do. It's good enough that if what you put infront of it sounds like you want it to sound, the RNP won't damage that sound. how about the bellari rp220...is that a "real" tube preamp? ahhhh! Yes, it is a real cheap real tube preamp, and works like a preamp with very low output mics. With regular mics it distorts like mad right up front at the input transformer. It can ge good for dirty sounds with regular mics, but it doesn't do clean very well with those. -- ha |
#16
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Wayne wrote:
FWIW, There really isn't a good or bad tube preamp, only different. Buy the one that has the sound you hear and want. Listen to a Manley or a Fearn and an ART or a Behringer. THEN come back & say that. Betcha won't. |
#17
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Wayne wrote:
FWIW, There really isn't a good or bad tube preamp, only different. Buy the one that has the sound you hear and want. Listen to a Manley or a Fearn and an ART or a Behringer. THEN come back & say that. Betcha won't. |
#18
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jon wrote:
now i have a few questions that i'm hoping some experienced members might be able to help me out with: is the peavey tmp-1 considered a "real" tube preamp like the vmp-2? should i bail on the "real" tube thing and get a presonus mp20 (with saturation simulation)? how is the presonus mp20 when it comes to getting that "real" tube sound, despite the lack of tubes? how about the bellari rp220...is that a "real" tube preamp? ahhhh! I haven't seen the TMP-1. The Bellari is interesting... it has a real front end that really does have a tube gain stage, but then it has solid state output stuff (and some pretty awful input transformers). The Bellari sounds like a not very good tube preamp, whereas stuff like the ART sounds more like a cartoon of a tube preamp. I think Groove Tubes is now making a reasonably priced tube preamp. Mostly, though, you should avoid getting hung up on the whole tube thing. Go and listen to some preamps and get one that sounds good, rather than spending your time worrying about what is inside them. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#19
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jon wrote:
now i have a few questions that i'm hoping some experienced members might be able to help me out with: is the peavey tmp-1 considered a "real" tube preamp like the vmp-2? should i bail on the "real" tube thing and get a presonus mp20 (with saturation simulation)? how is the presonus mp20 when it comes to getting that "real" tube sound, despite the lack of tubes? how about the bellari rp220...is that a "real" tube preamp? ahhhh! I haven't seen the TMP-1. The Bellari is interesting... it has a real front end that really does have a tube gain stage, but then it has solid state output stuff (and some pretty awful input transformers). The Bellari sounds like a not very good tube preamp, whereas stuff like the ART sounds more like a cartoon of a tube preamp. I think Groove Tubes is now making a reasonably priced tube preamp. Mostly, though, you should avoid getting hung up on the whole tube thing. Go and listen to some preamps and get one that sounds good, rather than spending your time worrying about what is inside them. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#20
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Wayne wrote:
FWIW, There really isn't a good or bad tube preamp, only different. Buy the one that has the sound you hear and want. Listen to a Manley or a Fearn and an ART or a Behringer. THEN come back & say that. Betcha won't. Application, application, application! There are folks on RAP that either like or dislike all four of the preamps you referenced. That doesn't indicate good or bad, just a different preference. The same thing is true with mics and everything else we use in our studios. Personally, I don't have any of the four your mentioned. I do however have a VMP-2 modded by Stephen Sank and a Aphex 107. One a full tube, the other a hybrid. They both have their uses and mostly I prefer the VMP-2 over the 107. I had a Rolls RP220 and sold it because I didn't have many uses for it. However, on some things it did a very good job so it's not trash. Of course, financial limitations factor into everything we purchase. None of my mics cost over a $1000 and that has not been a limiting factor on making quality recordings. We have to work around issues in all our studios and I happen to think it makes us better audio engineers. Just because I might have a Manley or D.W. Fearn does not guarantee a "better" sounding session than I could get with an Art or Behringer. Scott summed it up nicely when he said we need to get over the tube thingy and look for the best sounding preamp we can afford to buy. As long as what I have recorded sounds better than what's playing in the studio, I'm not interested in spending the mega bucks for high dollar "brand names". Just my view. :) --Wayne -"sounded good to me"- |
#21
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Wayne wrote:
FWIW, There really isn't a good or bad tube preamp, only different. Buy the one that has the sound you hear and want. Listen to a Manley or a Fearn and an ART or a Behringer. THEN come back & say that. Betcha won't. Application, application, application! There are folks on RAP that either like or dislike all four of the preamps you referenced. That doesn't indicate good or bad, just a different preference. The same thing is true with mics and everything else we use in our studios. Personally, I don't have any of the four your mentioned. I do however have a VMP-2 modded by Stephen Sank and a Aphex 107. One a full tube, the other a hybrid. They both have their uses and mostly I prefer the VMP-2 over the 107. I had a Rolls RP220 and sold it because I didn't have many uses for it. However, on some things it did a very good job so it's not trash. Of course, financial limitations factor into everything we purchase. None of my mics cost over a $1000 and that has not been a limiting factor on making quality recordings. We have to work around issues in all our studios and I happen to think it makes us better audio engineers. Just because I might have a Manley or D.W. Fearn does not guarantee a "better" sounding session than I could get with an Art or Behringer. Scott summed it up nicely when he said we need to get over the tube thingy and look for the best sounding preamp we can afford to buy. As long as what I have recorded sounds better than what's playing in the studio, I'm not interested in spending the mega bucks for high dollar "brand names". Just my view. :) --Wayne -"sounded good to me"- |
#22
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The IDSS on the MP20 is a lame tube simulation if that's really what it's
supposed to be, but for my money the MP 20 is an excellent stereo preamp for under $400 especially if you can find one with Jensen transformers. Neil R "Scott Dorsey" wrote in message ... jon wrote: now i have a few questions that i'm hoping some experienced members might be able to help me out with: is the peavey tmp-1 considered a "real" tube preamp like the vmp-2? should i bail on the "real" tube thing and get a presonus mp20 (with saturation simulation)? how is the presonus mp20 when it comes to getting that "real" tube sound, despite the lack of tubes? how about the bellari rp220...is that a "real" tube preamp? ahhhh! I haven't seen the TMP-1. The Bellari is interesting... it has a real front end that really does have a tube gain stage, but then it has solid state output stuff (and some pretty awful input transformers). The Bellari sounds like a not very good tube preamp, whereas stuff like the ART sounds more like a cartoon of a tube preamp. I think Groove Tubes is now making a reasonably priced tube preamp. Mostly, though, you should avoid getting hung up on the whole tube thing. Go and listen to some preamps and get one that sounds good, rather than spending your time worrying about what is inside them. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#23
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The IDSS on the MP20 is a lame tube simulation if that's really what it's
supposed to be, but for my money the MP 20 is an excellent stereo preamp for under $400 especially if you can find one with Jensen transformers. Neil R "Scott Dorsey" wrote in message ... jon wrote: now i have a few questions that i'm hoping some experienced members might be able to help me out with: is the peavey tmp-1 considered a "real" tube preamp like the vmp-2? should i bail on the "real" tube thing and get a presonus mp20 (with saturation simulation)? how is the presonus mp20 when it comes to getting that "real" tube sound, despite the lack of tubes? how about the bellari rp220...is that a "real" tube preamp? ahhhh! I haven't seen the TMP-1. The Bellari is interesting... it has a real front end that really does have a tube gain stage, but then it has solid state output stuff (and some pretty awful input transformers). The Bellari sounds like a not very good tube preamp, whereas stuff like the ART sounds more like a cartoon of a tube preamp. I think Groove Tubes is now making a reasonably priced tube preamp. Mostly, though, you should avoid getting hung up on the whole tube thing. Go and listen to some preamps and get one that sounds good, rather than spending your time worrying about what is inside them. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#24
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#26
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i had/have bottom line tube emulation amps and mics. the presonus
tubepre was outright horrible because it sounded fake, so i dumped it. i also have the dbx 386 and it is less terrible than the presonus but it never sounds warm. i'm keeping it for the time being for its fairly decent a/d converters. i have two grace 101 preamps, which are low-cost transformerless solid-state preamps that have a natural sound with an "airy" top, which sounds quite warm/big with a neumann u87 ai, rode k2 tube, and somewhat warm/big with an at4047 mic. i just sold an at3060 tube mic because it never sounded very warm. it was a horrendously dumb mic with a fake tube. imho 1) to get a real good tube sound you need some serious gear and not the emulation stuff, 2) it's possible to get a great sound with serious non-tube gear, and 3) it's easy to mess up even with serious gear if something isn't right in the chain. i've heard thin stuff come out of an avalon 737 and a low-end neumann mic. my recommendations are to lurk forums, read reviews, get catalogs, visit online vendors, go test gear if you have time...but stay away from emulations. yeah, peavey'll be a hard catch, but maybe look at devices such as the drawmer ts2, universal audio, and other top name gear. i think there's ample gear in the $700-1000 range that will sound warm/big, tube or not. |
#27
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i had/have bottom line tube emulation amps and mics. the presonus
tubepre was outright horrible because it sounded fake, so i dumped it. i also have the dbx 386 and it is less terrible than the presonus but it never sounds warm. i'm keeping it for the time being for its fairly decent a/d converters. i have two grace 101 preamps, which are low-cost transformerless solid-state preamps that have a natural sound with an "airy" top, which sounds quite warm/big with a neumann u87 ai, rode k2 tube, and somewhat warm/big with an at4047 mic. i just sold an at3060 tube mic because it never sounded very warm. it was a horrendously dumb mic with a fake tube. imho 1) to get a real good tube sound you need some serious gear and not the emulation stuff, 2) it's possible to get a great sound with serious non-tube gear, and 3) it's easy to mess up even with serious gear if something isn't right in the chain. i've heard thin stuff come out of an avalon 737 and a low-end neumann mic. my recommendations are to lurk forums, read reviews, get catalogs, visit online vendors, go test gear if you have time...but stay away from emulations. yeah, peavey'll be a hard catch, but maybe look at devices such as the drawmer ts2, universal audio, and other top name gear. i think there's ample gear in the $700-1000 range that will sound warm/big, tube or not. |
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