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#1
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SM-81 for choir micing
If you were going to mic a chorus with very low stage volume (no
monitors, no band, etc.), it seems to me a pair of SM-81's in a coincident pair about 6 feet up and away should be just fine. I see people talking about choir mics in church settings. But these posts seem to be centering on jacked-up stage settings with shout-to- hear-your-neighbor volumes in the crowd area (what happened to "sanctuary" anyway?). So I'm trying to approach this from a reasonable volume, not hyped situation. |
#2
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SM-81 for choir micing
wrote in message ... If you were going to mic a chorus with very low stage volume (no monitors, no band, etc.), it seems to me a pair of SM-81's in a coincident pair about 6 feet up and away should be just fine. I see people talking about choir mics in church settings. But these posts seem to be centering on jacked-up stage settings with shout-to- hear-your-neighbor volumes in the crowd area (what happened to "sanctuary" anyway?). So I'm trying to approach this from a reasonable volume, not hyped situation. Is this sound reinforcement or for recording? Either way in church settings visual esthetics often preclude optimal placement and larger mics. Personally I have has satisfactory results micing choirs with a wide variety if condensers. everything from crown PCC to shotguns. The only thing that I can recall that I was quite dissatisfied was an omni. I found I wanted to hear the choir not choir+ room. |
#3
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SM-81 for choir micing
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#4
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SM-81 for choir micing
"Chris Hornbeck" wrote ...
The question part of this post is missing, so maybe only general comments apply. Hard to tell your experience level from the initial post, so forgive me if these comments are too obvious (everything's obvious once you've done it!) : Also missing from the original post was the critical information about whether the OP was asking about reinforcement or recording. Churches uniformly, without exception, seem to expect large gains in choir sound volume by hanging a pair of microphones and trusting to Faith. They are uniformly, without exception, disappointed. Ain't happenin'. Never, ever, never. There are most certainly exceptions. It depends on sort of churches you sample. Most of the ones I sample are "acoustic". Secondly, you need to begin to think about all the other (potentially) open mic's in the sanctuary. Assuming (because you didn't say) that you're talking about SR, the soup that you're going to be cooking includes *all* potentially open mic's. Indeed we know absolutely nothing about any of these other critical details. |
#5
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SM-81 for choir micing
On Fri, 3 Oct 2008 21:16:59 -0700, "Richard Crowley"
wrote: Churches uniformly, without exception, seem to expect large gains in choir sound volume by hanging a pair of microphones and trusting to Faith. They are uniformly, without exception, disappointed. Ain't happenin'. Never, ever, never. There are most certainly exceptions. It depends on sort of churches you sample. Most of the ones I sample are "acoustic". I knew, reading my post in Usenet, that I'd been more "general" than was politic, so thanks for the opportunity to clarify my sweeping generalizations. First: if a stranger posts into r.a.p asking about church sound and offering next-to-nothing details, my bet is that (s)he has been drafted into a gig way over their head, and needs a place to get started (and this ain't it! - (s)he needs a book). Second: A church big enough to have significant gain from a pair of flying choir mics has a dedicated sound person. If not, they need to get their act together - I **** thee not. Smaller churches fly mics hoping for results that simply cannot happen. I'm not being mean here; it's just what I've seen way too many times. Expectations exceed anything possible - that's (sometimes) life. Best, IMO, to get it out front. Third: Churches seem to always ignore issues of on-stage monitoring; issues of musicians hearing each other are classic. Two keyboard players twenty feet apart seems trivial to SR folks, but it's a surprise problem to most church folks. Sound just ain't their main gig. There's a lot to be said about church sound, and I think good bits of it would be generally useful to all pro-sound folks. Hopefully the thread will continue deeper. (But the OP really needs a good book!) Much thanks, as always, Chris Hornbeck |
#6
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SM-81 for choir micing
wrote in message
... If you were going to mic a chorus with very low stage volume (no monitors, no band, etc.), it seems to me a pair of SM-81's in a coincident pair about 6 feet up and away should be just fine. What are you miking them for? Recording? Or reinforcement? In either case the SM81s would probably be fine, but I'm curious. Peace, Paul |
#7
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SM-81 for choir micing
I have used SM94's in x-y. Cheaper than 81's, but very good.
Gianluca |
#8
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SM-81 for choir micing
It's not for a church. It's for sound reinforcement. Visuals are
inconsequential. No monitors, purely acoustic. |
#9
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SM-81 for choir micing
wrote in message
... It's not for a church. It's for sound reinforcement. Visuals are inconsequential. No monitors, purely acoustic. Not to be cantankerous, but if there's sound reinforcement, it's not "purely acoustic". We still need to know a lot more. How many people singing? In what kinds of spaces, for how big an audience? Accompanied by what instruments, if any? Who will be operating the sound reinforcement system? Peace, Paul |
#10
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SM-81 for choir micing
wrote from Gooooooooooogle Groups...
It's not for a church. It's for sound reinforcement. Visuals are inconsequential. No monitors, purely acoustic. It is not "acoustic" if you are doing sound reinforcement. If you don't see that you are providing way too few details to get any reasonable response, then you might want to consider looking for local, live help rather than trying to get assistance here. Making people play "20-questions" isn't likely to win you many folk willing to help you, either. |
#11
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SM-81 for choir micing
wrote:
If you were going to mic a chorus with very low stage volume (no monitors, no band, etc.), it seems to me a pair of SM-81's in a coincident pair about 6 feet up and away should be just fine. You could do worse. The SM-81s aren't the best things around and will tend to be a little brittle sounding, but they are perfectly okay in a good room with a tight budget. I see people talking about choir mics in church settings. But these posts seem to be centering on jacked-up stage settings with shout-to- hear-your-neighbor volumes in the crowd area (what happened to "sanctuary" anyway?). This is a very bad situation, yes. So I'm trying to approach this from a reasonable volume, not hyped situation. Well, I can tell you that a pair of B&K 4006s with a Jecklin Disc will sound a lot cleaner in a good room than an ORTF pair of SM-81s, but it will cost a lot more too. And a Jecklin disc will make a real hash of a bad room. On the other hand if you are in a long skinny church with an extended narthex and very shallow galleries, a Blumlein pair of figure-8s can help get you a good sound and can help you avoid slap problems from the walls. This sort of job becomes a question of what mike technique and configuration fits the room. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#12
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SM-81 for choir micing
In article ,
wrote: It's not for a church. It's for sound reinforcement. Visuals are inconsequential. No monitors, purely acoustic. In that case, a mike with a tighter pattern will do better than an SM-81. And a parametric set up to notch the first couple feedback modes would help too. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#13
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SM-81 for choir micing
Thanks, Scott.
Are you talking about a hypercardioid, or do you mean something like an sm-58 that only picks up sounds close to the source? I saw a Josephson C42 which sells for about $420 each. That's a good brand, but I'm not sure what the pickup pattern is like compared to the SM-81, or the off-axis response or the rf-rejection, etc. Is there some mic in the $350 range that does what you are talking about? |
#14
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SM-81 for choir micing
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#15
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SM-81 for choir micing
genericaudioperson wrote:
Thanks, Scott. Are you talking about a hypercardioid, or do you mean something like an sm-58 that only picks up sounds close to the source? Probably a hypercardioid. Your goal is to use microphones that you can pull as far away from the source as possible. I saw a Josephson C42 which sells for about $420 each. That's a good brand, but I'm not sure what the pickup pattern is like compared to the SM-81, or the off-axis response or the rf-rejection, etc. The pattern is a little tighter than the SM-81. The top end is a whole hell of a lot cleaner and the top end response is much flatter, and consequently has better gain before feedback. But it's not super tight. Is there some mic in the $350 range that does what you are talking about? Is the Audio-Technica AT4053 still being made? --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#16
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SM-81 for choir micing
On Mon, 6 Oct 2008 23:07:22 -0400, Scott Dorsey wrote
(in article ): genericaudioperson wrote: Thanks, Scott. Are you talking about a hypercardioid, or do you mean something like an sm-58 that only picks up sounds close to the source? Probably a hypercardioid. Your goal is to use microphones that you can pull as far away from the source as possible. I saw a Josephson C42 which sells for about $420 each. That's a good brand, but I'm not sure what the pickup pattern is like compared to the SM-81, or the off-axis response or the rf-rejection, etc. The pattern is a little tighter than the SM-81. The top end is a whole hell of a lot cleaner and the top end response is much flatter, and consequently has better gain before feedback. But it's not super tight. Is there some mic in the $350 range that does what you are talking about? Is the Audio-Technica AT4053 still being made? --scott yes. Ty Ford --Audio Equipment Reviews Audio Production Services Acting and Voiceover Demos http://www.tyford.com Guitar player?:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWaPRHMGhGA |
#17
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SM-81 for choir micing
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#18
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SM-81 for choir micing
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#19
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SM-81 for choir micing
On Wed, 8 Oct 2008 03:47:38 -0400, Joe Kotroczo wrote
(in article ): On 7/10/08 5:07, in article , "Scott Dorsey" wrote: (...) Is the Audio-Technica AT4053 still being made? No. http://tinyurl.com/3tqwxb Ty Ford --Audio Equipment Reviews Audio Production Services Acting and Voiceover Demos http://www.tyford.com Guitar player?:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWaPRHMGhGA |
#20
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SM-81 for choir micing
On Wed, 8 Oct 2008 03:47:38 -0400, Joe Kotroczo wrote
(in article ): On 7/10/08 5:07, in article , "Scott Dorsey" wrote: (...) Is the Audio-Technica AT4053 still being made? No. Ah, well ....at4053b now. http://www.audio-technica.com/cms/wi...1f0/index.html Regards, Ty Ford --Audio Equipment Reviews Audio Production Services Acting and Voiceover Demos http://www.tyford.com Guitar player?:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWaPRHMGhGA |
#21
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SM-81 for choir micing
On 8/10/08 17:42, in article ,
"Ty Ford" wrote: On Wed, 8 Oct 2008 03:47:38 -0400, Joe Kotroczo wrote (in article ): On 7/10/08 5:07, in article , "Scott Dorsey" wrote: (...) Is the Audio-Technica AT4053 still being made? No. Ah, well ....at4053b now. http://www.audio-technica.com/cms/wi...1f0/index.html Huh? It just tried it again: type in 4053 into the search thingy on the A-T website, and all you get is this: http://www.audio-technica.com/cms/wi...2b1/index.html Type in 4053b and the search yields nothing, no hits. Hmpf. -- Joe Kotroczo |
#22
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SM-81 for choir micing
On Wed, 8 Oct 2008 11:46:12 -0400, Joe Kotroczo wrote
(in article ): http://www.audio-technica.com/cms/wi...1f0/index.html Um, step away from the coffee machine and scroll down a bit, Joe. it's at the bottom of the window. http://www.audio-technica.com/cms/wi...1f0/index.html Regards, Ty Ford --Audio Equipment Reviews Audio Production Services Acting and Voiceover Demos http://www.tyford.com Guitar player?:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWaPRHMGhGA |
#24
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SM-81 for choir micing
On Wed, 8 Oct 2008 12:18:45 -0400, Joe Kotroczo wrote
(in article ): On 8/10/08 18:01, in article , "Ty Ford" wrote: On Wed, 8 Oct 2008 11:46:12 -0400, Joe Kotroczo wrote (in article ): http://www.audio-technica.com/cms/wi...1f0/index.html Um, step away from the coffee machine and scroll down a bit, Joe. it's at the bottom of the window. http://www.audio-technica.com/cms/wi...1f0/index.html Hmm? I've seen your link, thanks, I was complaining about the fact that their "Product Search" doesn't get me there. Joe, My own experiences with product search were annoying until I realized that the results were small and way at the bottom of the window. You had to find them and click on them. Regards, Ty Ford --Audio Equipment Reviews Audio Production Services Acting and Voiceover Demos http://www.tyford.com Guitar player?:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWaPRHMGhGA |
#25
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SM-81 for choir micing
On 9/10/08 16:02, in article ,
"Ty Ford" wrote: On Wed, 8 Oct 2008 12:18:45 -0400, Joe Kotroczo wrote (in article ): On 8/10/08 18:01, in article , "Ty Ford" wrote: On Wed, 8 Oct 2008 11:46:12 -0400, Joe Kotroczo wrote (in article ): http://www.audio-technica.com/cms/wi...1f0/index.html Um, step away from the coffee machine and scroll down a bit, Joe. it's at the bottom of the window. http://www.audio-technica.com/cms/wi...1f0/index.html Hmm? I've seen your link, thanks, I was complaining about the fact that their "Product Search" doesn't get me there. Joe, My own experiences with product search were annoying until I realized that the results were small and way at the bottom of the window. You had to find them and click on them. I tried it again: it does indeed work when I go to the Audio-Technica US website. If I try the same search ("4053b") on for example the UK website, I get an "Not available in your world area and/or language." Hmm... I hate websites where they make you click on a worldmap before letting you in. -- Joe Kotroczo |
#26
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SM-81 for choir micing
On Fri, 10 Oct 2008 07:50:14 -0400, Joe Kotroczo wrote
(in article ): I tried it again: it does indeed work when I go to the Audio-Technica US website. If I try the same search ("4053b") on for example the UK website, I get an "Not available in your world area and/or language." Hmm... I hate websites where they make you click on a worldmap before letting you in. It's a small world after all. Ty Ford --Audio Equipment Reviews Audio Production Services Acting and Voiceover Demos http://www.tyford.com Guitar player?:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWaPRHMGhGA |
#27
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SM-81 for choir micing
Ty Ford wrote:
On Fri, 10 Oct 2008 07:50:14 -0400, Joe Kotroczo wrote (in article ): I tried it again: it does indeed work when I go to the Audio-Technica US website. If I try the same search ("4053b") on for example the UK website, I get an "Not available in your world area and/or language." Hmm... I hate websites where they make you click on a worldmap before letting you in. It's a small world after all. Ty Ford Depends on the size of your screen.... jak --Audio Equipment Reviews Audio Production Services Acting and Voiceover Demos http://www.tyford.com Guitar player?:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWaPRHMGhGA |
#28
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SM-81 for choir micing
wrote in message ... It's not for a church. It's for sound reinforcement. Visuals are inconsequential. No monitors, purely acoustic. OK the question is micing choir using SM81's for SR. Answer: getting gain before feedback (GBF) when micing from a distance is always a problem requiring consideration of mic placement. While the Sm81 does as well as many other cardioid condensers for this it is still a cardioid. For optimum results with the dictates of mic placement something with a hypercard pattern is usually slightly better. you aim the null toward the speakers to optimize GBF. I find the Samson C01 http://www.samsontech.com/products/relatedDocs/C01U.pdf to be a good choice when a LDC can be used. |
#29
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SM-81 for choir micing
"Tim Perry" wrote in message ... wrote in message ... It's not for a church. It's for sound reinforcement. Visuals are inconsequential. No monitors, purely acoustic. OK the question is micing choir using SM81's for SR. Answer: getting gain before feedback (GBF) when micing from a distance is always a problem requiring consideration of mic placement. While the Sm81 does as well as many other cardioid condensers for this it is still a cardioid. For optimum results with the dictates of mic placement something with a hypercard pattern is usually slightly better. you aim the null toward the speakers to optimize GBF. I find the Samson C01 http://www.samsontech.com/products/relatedDocs/C01U.pdf to be a good choice when a LDC can be used. The more observant will notice the link is to the USB version. rest assured the polar pattern is identical to the one that comes with a new C01 |
#30
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SM-81 for choir micing
Tim Perry wrote:
I find the Samson C01 http://www.samsontech.com/products/relatedDocs/C01U.pdf to be a good choice when a LDC can be used. The more observant will notice the link is to the USB version. rest assured the polar pattern is identical to the one that comes with a new C01 Sadly, the polar pattern on the data sheet has little to do with the polar pattern of the actual device, as you will sadly discover if you attempt to use it as a PA mike. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#31
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SM-81 for choir micing
"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message ... Tim Perry wrote: I find the Samson C01 http://www.samsontech.com/products/relatedDocs/C01U.pdf to be a good choice when a LDC can be used. The more observant will notice the link is to the USB version. rest assured the polar pattern is identical to the one that comes with a new C01 Sadly, the polar pattern on the data sheet has little to do with the polar pattern of the actual device, as you will sadly discover if you attempt to use it as a PA mike. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." I will not insist the printed pattern is accurate, however I own 4 of these and from first hand experience find they do work well for live PA choir. |
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