"Schizoid Man" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
"Schizoid Man" wrote in message

snip

Notice that "Schizoid" removed the following critical statement:

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message


"You've missed an important point. Saddam was going to off the Kurds, the
only question was how."

Show archival video footage to the Iranians how Rumsfeld and Saddam
embraced during Donald's official visit to Baghdad in 1982.

That was then, this is now.

My point exactly. When did Saddam gas the Kurds? Shortly after Gulf
War I, almost ten years ago.

Wrong, it was before Gulf War 1, ca. 1988.

When was the Iran-Iraq war? In the mid
80s, almost twenty years ago.

Wrong, it was the early, mid, and most of the late 1980's - 1980 to 1988.

So I will repeat your brilliant example of eloquence - that was then,
this is now.

Meaning?

Wake up and smell the coffee, Mr Krueger.

See the comment I wrote that you deleted.


Listen mate, if you got to tell them, then you got to tell the whole
truth and not just the part that doesn't hurt your sensibilities.

OK, next.

For a country to act in its self-interest is understandable and
logical. But for you to pretend that the Iraq policies have been
ordained with Mother Teresa's help is simple spin doctoring.

A figment of your imagination.

Sorry, I take that back. I'm sure the United States has no vested
interest in Iraq and it acted against Saddam's government, and in
doing so alienated long-time allies and partners, out of sheer
selflessness and magnanimity.

Wrong. We helped ourselves and in the process helped lots of other people,
including 20+ million Iraquis. There were some politicians in a few
countries (France, Germany Russia) who were in denial and hadn't yet
written off Saddam's bad debts to them. They didn't want to be forced to
face facts. We did them a favor by forcing them to wake up and smell the
coffee.

Arny Krueger wrote:
"Joseph Oberlander" wrote in message



Not really. He wanted to do damage to the U.S.'s reputation and
our standing in the U.N. He has accomplished it.


You are dead, my reputation is a bit tarnished. Do you really prefer to be
you, or would you like to be me?

Well, think like a terrorist for a second. You want the enemy to suffer
as much as possible. In the long term, political damage and the chance
that their agressive intentions will solidify the entire Arab World(tm)
against the U.S. is far more destructive than a few bombers ever could
have been.

And he lives out his like Marcos-style in some other nation that refuses
to extradite him due to our bounty on his head.

Compared to being steamrolled over and shot dead? If he pulls it off,
he even has all sorts of grievences with the U.N. for our unprovoked
attack(etc etc) - which they will be all to happy to side with knowing
them. He has the Arab world up in arms against us, and he damages our
standing in the U.N. so badly half of the nations don't listen to us
anymore no matter how much we threaten them.

All he needs to do is get out of the country to someplace safe.
(course that's the problem right now - and why we are so insistent
on killing him)

Stop posturing. Since we are alive we get to make the rest of our lives.

I guess it really is good to be the King. Who the hell cares what
we do to the rest of the world as long as we have ours?

We were on shaky ground in the last few decades,
but now - we're jsut as corrupt and militaristic as any of
the other nations in the world.

Shows how out-of-touch with reality you are. We are the most powerful
military force in the world, That makes us automatically the most
militaristic nation in the world,

Well, true to form, just like all of the nations of Europe two centuries
ago, we are doing the same things - expansion, annexing areas and markets,
taking over entire nations...

Being the biggest military tends to lead to abuses of that power.
Of course, WE are special and smarter and immune to the same problems
of the other civilizations and countries in the past - because we're
smarter and special and Jheezus is on our side...

I was talking to my mom the other day and she was doing the typical
Revelations nonsense about the propehcies about the end of the world
and I asked her a question - what if the big evil nation that starts
it all is *us*?

You should have seen her face - totaly unwilling to accept it as a
possiblility as we are special and righteous and good and...
Finally, she said - "Well, the end time is near and we will all
be saved, so it doesn't matter"

Sheesh. With bubble-headed religous beliefs like that, no wonder
we're sliding downhill. Don't bother being moral or planning for
the future because we all KNOW that we will be taken away by Jheezus(tm)
in the next few years...

Sounds insane, doesn't it. Problem is, these nutjobs are running our
government right now. To them, it doesn't matter who you stomp on
or what bridges you burn because it will all be over in a few years.


He would have been
taken out by someone eventually or died of old age. This
way, he and his sons retire to someplace in exile. Well, that
was the plan. Now, he's just an old man all by himself.

No, he still has 10,000's of supporters who think they can rise again.

And he now has 5 million people in the largest tribe in Iraq
solidly against him. That's one out of a dozen large groups.
There's no way he could come back to power again without a civil war
that would crush him like a bug in the first week.

With his sons dead, it's impossible. No chance at all.

Secondly, offering blood-money
to informants is incredibly bad. "dead or alive" sort of
bounties were last seen back in the 1800s.

You live in a dream world, right?

There's a difference between wanting someone dead and a
government putting a worldwide bounty on the leader of another
nation. That's basically the same as assassinating him.

What if some nation like North Korea put a 20 million bounty
on Bush's head? Do you really want to set the precident that
since the U.S. plays by those rules, they can do the same against
us?

Which is why the people of Liberia are begging us to stop by with a
lot of troops. They want to be bullied.

Actually, BUSH is ignoring them.

I suspect he's waiting for the rebels to do their own dirty work.

No oil. Sorry - too
poor - go **** off. Our troops would take a week to reach
them and deploy in force. It will be over by then.

And what is wrong with that?

What's wrong is it blows a 10 foot hole in your argument:

*quote*
Which is why the people of Liberia are begging us to stop by with a lot of
troops. They want to be bullied.

*quote 2*
If our image is so tarnished, why are people begging for us to send
in our military forces and straighten things out in Liberia?
*******

Sorry - you need to recalibrate your views a bit.

I stated that we were uncaring *******s. You brought up Liberia.
I pointed out that we are going to let them slag the place and not care,
so their asking us for help was moot depsite all their begging.
You stated "what's wrong with that?"
I stated that your example of Liberia was not valid, then.

Evidently your blind patriotism is getting in the way of being
objective. We now ARE the bullies and *******s. We now ARE the
uncaring jerks. Liberia proves it - sorry - too poor - go **** off
and we'll maybe clean up when the place is rubble.
(more like when the rebels take over, get all sorts of sweet
inside deals set up between our government and theirs)

It's good to be the King.(sic for the impared)

No, I know that - but the fact is, that even with mounting evidence
that they could never win short of nuking the place, they still
went on and on and on with their agendas because their egos refused
to believe that the mighty U.S. could be beaten.

They were ordered to go on by 3 successive civilian commanders-in-chief.

Just like Bush and his morons are ****ing off the military now.
Too bad it will take another 2-3 administrations to get us out
of there before our leaders come to their senses.

Can't appear weak can we? Can't let all of that oil actually go
to the people who live there, can we?(See Egypt vs England 100 years
ago for reference)

But Bush will keep troops there until he is finally out of office,
if for no other reason than to not admit he was wrong in any way.

Something about finishing what was started.

Too bad his ego is going to get a lot of our soldiers needlessly
killed when if he'd waited and gotten U.N. approval, it would be
a simple matter to pull out and leave the Iraqis nobody to get
mad at since the forces there would represent the entire world.

"George M. Middius" wrote in message

Schizoid Man said to ****-for-Brains:

Shucks Mr Krueger, you are full of facts.

Nobody on RAO has ever called it "facts" before, to my knowledge.

Cynicism, my dear Middius. In reference to his delusions of grandeur.

Schizoid Man wrote:
"Arny Krueger" wrote in message

"Schizoid Man" wrote in message



snip - No one else is reading this apart from both of us, plus I didn't
edit out a critical bit


Wrong, it was before Gulf War 1, ca. 1988.


OK. That further proves my point. Which is, that no one disputes that he HAD
them (the WMDs) THEN. The question is does he have them NOW?

Perhaps we should have verified that before(if the WMD claim is false)
we ended up invading another nation without provocation. That's called
invading and conquering in non-politi-speak.(aka plain english)

That's why Blair is in such hot water and why that scientist who could
have proven his statemets were lies ended up dead.(nobody really believes
it was a suicide at this point - it was too convienent.)

That's why the person who can blow holes in our case's wife was
purposely exposed and her cover blown(defined as a treasonous act
by a 1982 law, btw). To keep him in line and likely force him
to go into protective custody and get a new identity to keep his
wife alive. Bury him so deep nobody finds him - just like Nixon
was trying to do with his immoral acts.

But, thanks to the information and technology we now have, this
will unravel and blow up in everyone's face. Note how everyone
is jumping to take the bullet now for Bush's speech.

At last count, that's like 10 people who deserve to be brought up
on charges and fired or thrown in jail. One of them will crack
eventually and point the finger right at the instigator - Cheney.

The news yesterday about the documents showing Cheney was sizing
up Iraq months before we even brought it up to the U.N. is like
a mine going off under his feet. He's toast - because the press
no longer believes him(ie - found the smoking gun) and is motivated
to dig until they find everything they can.

I give it two months before Cheney is getting his butt whipped
by an investigative commitee.

Sucks to be Bush when you're trying to get re-elected and your
vice-president is being impeached.

A point oft omitted in the media is that the United States has been in Iraq
now longer than the UN weapons inspectors. I suppose the Iraqi government is
still orchestrating the obfuscation of the WMD hunt.

I recently heard an interview with the person who headed up the U.N.
teams and he stated that the lifespan for deployment of VX gas was
2 weeks and required refinery-scale operations at full production
to maintain. Beyond that, it was not viable as a weapon. He also stated
that the lifespan of Anthrax and the other chemical and biological agents
was at most 3-4 years.

It's been a decade. Ten years. Anything he had has long since turned
into residue that I suppose if you rooted around in the old barrels
and inhaled it on purpose or ate it you might get sick - but as a weapon?
Useless.

Of course that never made the press, did it? Can't have our big "WMD"
rationale blown apart by scientific data can we?

"Schizoid Man" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
"Schizoid Man" wrote in message


snip - No one else is reading this apart from both of us, plus I
didn't edit out a critical bit

But you did.

I'm tired of your lies and deceptions.

"Joseph Oberlander" wrote in message

Arny Krueger wrote:
"Joseph Oberlander" wrote in message



Not really. He wanted to do damage to the U.S.'s reputation and
our standing in the U.N. He has accomplished it.


You are dead, my reputation is a bit tarnished. Do you really prefer
to be you, or would you like to be me?

Well, think like a terrorist for a second.

Sorry, I'm saner than that.

Besides, you didn't answer a clear and simple question. I'm tired of your
posturing and deceptions.

On Wed, 23 Jul 2003 15:12:06 -0400, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

"Joseph Oberlander" wrote in message

Arny Krueger wrote:
"Joseph Oberlander" wrote in message



Not really. He wanted to do damage to the U.S.'s reputation and
our standing in the U.N. He has accomplished it.


You are dead, my reputation is a bit tarnished. Do you really prefer
to be you, or would you like to be me?

Well, think like a terrorist for a second.

Sorry, I'm saner than that.

Besides, you didn't answer a clear and simple question. I'm tired of your
posturing and deceptions.

Now you know how many feel when it comes to your posting habits here
on RAO.

On Wed, 23 Jul 2003 15:10:48 -0400, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

"Schizoid Man" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
"Schizoid Man" wrote in message


snip - No one else is reading this apart from both of us, plus I
didn't edit out a critical bit

But you did.

I'm tired of your lies and deceptions.

As many are of your abuse of "the debating trade".

dave weil said to ****-for-Brains:

I'm tired of your lies and deceptions.

As many are of your abuse of "the debating trade".

Actually, the "debating trade" is Krooger's own term for his
Usenet act of nonstop lying, hairsplitting, lying, personal
attacks, lying, disputatiousness, lying, paranoid raving, lying,
unprovoked insults and slanders, lying, lying, and more lying.
The "debating trade" doesn't exist outside of Mr. ****'s tattered
remnants of what used to be a mind.

If there were such a thing as a "debating trade", who would use it
to earn a living?

On Wed, 23 Jul 2003 15:49:49 -0400, George M. Middius
wrote:



dave weil said to ****-for-Brains:

I'm tired of your lies and deceptions.

As many are of your abuse of "the debating trade".

Actually, the "debating trade" is Krooger's own term for his
Usenet act of nonstop lying, hairsplitting, lying, personal
attacks, lying, disputatiousness, lying, paranoid raving, lying,
unprovoked insults and slanders, lying, lying, and more lying.
The "debating trade" doesn't exist outside of Mr. ****'s tattered
remnants of what used to be a mind.

Yes, I know.

If there were such a thing as a "debating trade", who would use it
to earn a living?

If there were such a thing as "the debating trade", I would have been
unlikely to put it quotation marks...

....doesn't stop me from using the term against its creator though.

dave weil said:

I'm tired of your lies and deceptions.

As many are of your abuse of "the debating trade".

Actually, the "debating trade" is Krooger's own term for his
Usenet act of nonstop lying, hairsplitting, lying, personal
attacks, lying, disputatiousness, lying, paranoid raving, lying,
unprovoked insults and slanders, lying, lying, and more lying.
The "debating trade" doesn't exist outside of Mr. ****'s tattered
remnants of what used to be a mind.

Yes, I know.

If there were such a thing as a "debating trade", who would use it
to earn a living?

If there were such a thing as "the debating trade", I would have been
unlikely to put it quotation marks...

...doesn't stop me from using the term against its creator though.

Well, of course not. My point was just that since the "debating
trade" is itself an exercise in abusing honesty, integrity, and
logic -- in short, behaving the way Krooger behaves -- then your
charge that Mr. **** abuses it falls short of the excoriation I'm
sure you intended.

Dave Weil wrote:


On Wed, 23 Jul 2003 15:49:49 -0400, George M. Middius
wrote:



dave weil said to ****-for-Brains:

I'm tired of your lies and deceptions.

As many are of your abuse of "the debating trade".

Actually, the "debating trade" is Krooger's own term for his
Usenet act of nonstop lying, hairsplitting, lying, personal
attacks, lying, disputatiousness, lying, paranoid raving, lying,
unprovoked insults and slanders, lying, lying, and more lying.
The "debating trade" doesn't exist outside of Mr. ****'s tattered
remnants of what used to be a mind.

Yes, I know.

If there were such a thing as a "debating trade", who would use it
to earn a living?

If there were such a thing as "the debating trade", I would have been
unlikely to put it quotation marks...

...doesn't stop me from using the term against its creator though.









Maybe he can "digitize" it.



Bruce J. Richman

Arny Krueger wrote:
"Joseph Oberlander" wrote in message


Arny Krueger wrote:


Ask Hirohito. He seemingly shrugged off the first bomb.

Slight error here.

No error.

He was looking for a way to surrender and
still retain some power internally and save face.

OK, but irrelevant to the fact that he didn't act decisivly after the first
bomb.

No, this was everything. Right here. You can't equate Japanese
culture at the time through a U.S. lens and get any sort of clear
understanding. He had to save face in some manner - no option.
They wanted to surrender even before that, but were too proud
to give in unconditionally - since the last time that happened
in a world war(WWI), Everyone did a land-grab and raped the loosers.

(Not to mention Russia going on the warpath the weeks right before)

Diplomacy with the U.S. is worthless.

It all depends on the circumstances.

No it does not. Take the Middle East. We are sending a clear
message to everyone. We will use you as "allies" and give you
technology to defeat your enemies when it serves our advantage
(Iran vs Iraq in the 80's), but when we feel like it - we will
bomb you flat as an "enemy" - as soon as you are weak and
politically expedient to us.

The net result is:
(to quote a Senator a few weeks ago)"Get Nuked up Fast".

ONLY when your nation has nuclear weapons will we even attempt
to *talk* to you, let alone negotiate. We are making overtures
towards Syria and Iran - invading them next and all they want is
to be left alone.

Israel has over 200 launchable missiles at last count and they
have no defense or counter against it. Not even a deterrant.
Then there's the 20,000 pound gorilla backing Israel that
is threatening to squash them flat next year.

They just want to be left alone to squabble over borders like they
have been doing for 40+ years. Run their nations the way they want.

That means leverage to get us to listen. That means Nuclear weapons
as Iraq had none and was crushed. Get them now or die anyways.

All we understand is
a bomb on your head and unconditional surrender. Unless we
are fought to a true standstill like in Korea.

As if diplomacy with North Korea is such a highly productive thing.

It seems to have worked for nearly 50 years. Better than Isreal's
version of diplomacy(or course, look who they learnt from - the 20,000
lb gorilla)

Look at us now - we are getting reamed in the world press for
our insistence that we must find Sadam and *kill* him. The standing
orders are to kill Sadam (Bush's own words in his latest speeches)
if possible.

As if the world press should shape our foreign policy.

How naive. Seriously. We don't live in a bubble and in a decade,
China and a united Europe will out-produce us and start dictating
terms to *us*.


Come on - capture? Nope. Exile? Nope.
(Texas Accent) "He needs a killin'"
Round up the posse and lynch us an Iraqi leader, boys!

I think that anybody who loves Sadam Hussein as much as you do Oberlander,
should be obliged to live under his rule - indefinitely.

Oh - I see - kill him like a lynch mob or accuse anyone who isn't
carrying a pitchfork and shouting for his hanging with you of
being on his side.

Done purely to cause "shock and awe" despite the fact that the end was
months away and Germany was crumbling. What makes it so deplorable
was that we basically did the boot to the throat grind their face into
the dirt because we could tactic that the Nazis were so famous for.

What did I say about bombing civilians? It's useless.

Of course it is.

The destruction of Dresden wasn't that thorough. There are numerous reports
of "thousands of survivors".

British Air Marshall Harris who planned the raid with our General LeMay were
not tried as war criminals. Harris's career was over after the war, even
though he received military honor. LeMay went on to head the US Strategic
Air Command, and eventially tried to run for President. However, both have
been judged by history to be terribly wrong about the policy of destroying
civilian targets as a means for shortening or ending a war. LeMay is quoted
as saying that had the US lost the war, he would expect to have been tried
as a war criminal.

Good to see we at least once thought of ourselves as war criminals.
Too bad nobody today seems to be asking the same hard questions
anymore than they were back in 1944.

In a way, we saved their bacon from a madman worse than Hitler -
Stalin.

Right.

See? I agree. The bombing of Japan was one time it saved more than
it would have cost everyone. Unfortunately, we have a spotty record
on that.

Now Stalin - he made Hitler look like an amateur. More people died
in Russia under him than ever did in the entirety of WWII.

29 million white Russians including most of my ancestors on my father's
side.

Sorry to hear about it. We hear on and on and OMG on about the
Haulocaust, but the larger Russian genoide under Stalin never gets
the same press, despite being four times larger.

Yes, folks, four times larger.

(counting those of his own population he killed during the war as
well - those were not real "war losses")

I think the estimates there are on the order of 22 million.

Correct. More people died under Stalin than in the entirety of WWII.
He was one sick *******, and (unfortunately) not suffering from
syphilis and delusions and other psychoisis' that hindered Hitler's
military effectiveness.

He was just plain evil incarnate and a genius as well - a dangerous
combination.

"Joseph Oberlander" wrote in message
...
Arny Krueger wrote:
"Joseph Oberlander" wrote in message


Arny Krueger wrote:


Ask Hirohito. He seemingly shrugged off the first bomb.

Slight error here.

No error.

He was looking for a way to surrender and
still retain some power internally and save face.

OK, but irrelevant to the fact that he didn't act decisivly after the
first
bomb.

No, this was everything. Right here. You can't equate Japanese
culture at the time through a U.S. lens and get any sort of clear
understanding. He had to save face in some manner - no option.
They wanted to surrender even before that, but were too proud
to give in unconditionally - since the last time that happened
in a world war(WWI), Everyone did a land-grab and raped the loosers.

(Not to mention Russia going on the warpath the weeks right before)

Diplomacy with the U.S. is worthless.

It all depends on the circumstances.

No it does not. Take the Middle East. We are sending a clear
message to everyone. We will use you as "allies" and give you
technology to defeat your enemies when it serves our advantage
(Iran vs Iraq in the 80's), but when we feel like it - we will
bomb you flat as an "enemy" - as soon as you are weak and
politically expedient to us.

We have not bombed them flat, we've gone out of our way not to bomb them
flat. We only attacked them when we percieved them to be a terrorist
threat.

The net result is:
(to quote a Senator a few weeks ago)"Get Nuked up Fast".

ONLY when your nation has nuclear weapons will we even attempt
to *talk* to you, let alone negotiate. We are making overtures
towards Syria and Iran - invading them next and all they want is
to be left alone.

So they can finance or hide terroists.

Israel has over 200 launchable missiles at last count and they
have no defense or counter against it. Not even a deterrant.
Then there's the 20,000 pound gorilla backing Israel that
is threatening to squash them flat next year.

Israel is not a threat to anybody not threatening them.

They just want to be left alone to squabble over borders like they
have been doing for 40+ years. Run their nations the way they want.

That means leverage to get us to listen. That means Nuclear weapons
as Iraq had none and was crushed. Get them now or die anyways.

All we understand is
a bomb on your head and unconditional surrender. Unless we
are fought to a true standstill like in Korea.

As if diplomacy with North Korea is such a highly productive thing.

It seems to have worked for nearly 50 years. Better than Isreal's
version of diplomacy(or course, look who they learnt from - the 20,000
lb gorilla)

If you make peace with Israel as Egypt has done you get left alone and you
get land back.

Look at us now - we are getting reamed in the world press for
our insistence that we must find Sadam and *kill* him.

Naturally, the world press is full of ****.

The standing
orders are to kill Sadam (Bush's own words in his latest speeches)
if possible.

Produce the documents that say so.

As if the world press should shape our foreign policy.

How naive. Seriously. We don't live in a bubble and in a decade,
China and a united Europe will out-produce us and start dictating
terms to *us*.


Come on - capture? Nope. Exile? Nope.
(Texas Accent) "He needs a killin'"
Round up the posse and lynch us an Iraqi leader, boys!

I think that anybody who loves Sadam Hussein as much as you do
Oberlander,
should be obliged to live under his rule - indefinitely.

Oh - I see - kill him like a lynch mob or accuse anyone who isn't
carrying a pitchfork and shouting for his hanging with you of
being on his side.

Done purely to cause "shock and awe" despite the fact that the end was
months away and Germany was crumbling. What makes it so deplorable
was that we basically did the boot to the throat grind their face into
the dirt because we could tactic that the Nazis were so famous for.

What did I say about bombing civilians? It's useless.

Of course it is.

The destruction of Dresden wasn't that thorough. There are numerous
reports
of "thousands of survivors".

British Air Marshall Harris who planned the raid with our General LeMay
were
not tried as war criminals. Harris's career was over after the war,
even
though he received military honor. LeMay went on to head the US
Strategic
Air Command, and eventially tried to run for President. However, both
have
been judged by history to be terribly wrong about the policy of
destroying
civilian targets as a means for shortening or ending a war. LeMay is
quoted
as saying that had the US lost the war, he would expect to have been
tried
as a war criminal.

Good to see we at least once thought of ourselves as war criminals.
Too bad nobody today seems to be asking the same hard questions
anymore than they were back in 1944.

In a way, we saved their bacon from a madman worse than Hitler -
Stalin.

Right.

See? I agree. The bombing of Japan was one time it saved more than
it would have cost everyone. Unfortunately, we have a spotty record
on that.

Now Stalin - he made Hitler look like an amateur. More people died
in Russia under him than ever did in the entirety of WWII.

29 million white Russians including most of my ancestors on my father's
side.

Sorry to hear about it. We hear on and on and OMG on about the
Haulocaust, but the larger Russian genoide under Stalin never gets
the same press, despite being four times larger.

Yes, folks, four times larger.

That's because Stalin was popular with the American liberals who actually
praised his as courageous for letting the Ukrainians starve to death when
they weren't denying it.

(counting those of his own population he killed during the war as
well - those were not real "war losses")

I think the estimates there are on the order of 22 million.

Correct. More people died under Stalin than in the entirety of WWII.
He was one sick *******, and (unfortunately) not suffering from
syphilis and delusions and other psychoisis' that hindered Hitler's
military effectiveness.

He was just plain evil incarnate and a genius as well - a dangerous
combination.

"Schizoid Man" wrote in message
...

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
"Schizoid Man" wrote in message


snip - No one else is reading this apart from both of us, plus I didn't
edit out a critical bit


Wrong, it was before Gulf War 1, ca. 1988.

OK. That further proves my point. Which is, that no one disputes that he
HAD
them (the WMDs) THEN. The question is does he have them NOW?

When was the Iran-Iraq war? In the mid
80s, almost twenty years ago.

Wrong, it was the early, mid, and most of the late 1980's - 1980 to
1988.


A further consolidation of my point. Did Saddam Hussein possess the same
technology in March 2003 that he used against the Kurds and the Iranians
15
to 20 years ago?

So I will repeat your brilliant example of eloquence - that was then,
this is now.

Meaning?

Meaning that no is disputing that he possessed (please notice the past
tense) those weapons. The question is does (please notice the present
tense)
he still possess them? As you so rightfully said - that was then, this is
now. That is exactly what I say about Saddam's WMDs.

A point oft omitted in the media is that the United States has been in
Iraq
now longer than the UN weapons inspectors. I suppose the Iraqi government
is
still orchestrating the obfuscation of the WMD hunt.

snip

Wrong. We helped ourselves and in the process helped lots of other
people,
including 20+ million Iraquis. There were some politicians in a few
countries (France, Germany Russia) who were in denial and hadn't yet
written off Saddam's bad debts to them.

Bad debts? A point often cited on Fox News is that France opposed the war
because they earned approximately 1.5% of their national GDP from trade
with
Iraq. Of course, these same news readers conveniently failed to mention
that
France earns about 40% of its GDP from trade with the United States.

Bad debts? How much are these debts? The G-8 countries (which include
France, Germany and Russia) recently met in Evian, France where
forgiveness
of third world debt was discussed among other topics. Don't you think
trade
damage with the United States would hurt these countries much more than
reclaiming a few billion dollars in debt?

Did you ever think for a second that France, Germany and Russia might have
paused to consider the civilian casualty cost of going to war with Iraq?
Don't you ever wonder that its ironic that France was censored in the
media
over here for voicing its opposition against the war? A very freedom that
we
so valiantly wanted to give to the Iraqis - the freedom of speech.

They didn't want to be forced to face facts. We did them a favor by
forcing them to wake up and smell the
coffee.

What facts? That Saddam's weapons of mass destruction could be deployed in
45 minutes? Damn, how could I forget that? My humble apologies. Or what
about the yellowcake he bought from Niger for a nuclear weapon? Shucks Mr
Krueger, you are full of facts. I am sorry.

In 1998 President Clinton gave a speech where he claimed at least 3 times
that Saddam was in possession of chemical and bilological weapons and had a
nuclear weapons program. That's wahy he bombed the aspirin factory. I do
notice how nobody from his party called for his head because of bad intel.
How odd.

"mikemckelvy" wrote in message
...

"Bruce J. Richman" wrote in message
...
Dave Weil wrote:


On Tue, 15 Jul 2003 16:11:26 -0700, "mikemckelvy"
wrote:


"dave weil" wrote in message
. ..

They invented deficit spending, they abolished the gold
standard.

Ummmmmm, who's taken that to new levels? Created the Platinum
Standard? (here's a hint, who actually balanced the budget

The GOP is why we have a balanced budget.

Actually the last part can be
answered by naming 2 Republican presidents of recent memory).

Most of the economic nightmares we've had they caused.

Yeah, like those nightmare 90s chuckle.

Endured under a Republican president not created by one.

You have no clue about what you are talking about. The majority of
the
90s was under Clinton, a DEMOCRATIC president.

Should have been: created by a GOP led Congress, while the Clinton
administration tried to subvert it, at least for the first 2 years.
Then
magic, Bubba loses control of the House and decides to move to the
middle.

So, we blame the GOP for the highest unemployment figures in years,
*and* the highest defict in history.

Cool.

Like the years AFTER the
Great Depression. Here's a hint for the last one - which party
was
in
power leading up to and at the start of the Great Depression?

Irrelevant. The President doesn't create economic problems or fix
them.

This is patently untrue. President Reagan singlehandedly caused the
slide of the dollar against foreign currencies.

Now who doesn't know what they are talking about? How do Presidents
do
such
things? Only Congress can spend money.

You do it by making the statement, "I'd like to see the dollar fall by
10% against foreign currency". That's exactly what Reagan did and it
had the effect of causing a freefall that went a lot further than 10%.
I know - I was in Germany at the time and was dismayed when he said
this.

Congress does both, with help from the Fed.
FDR made it last longer.

You're insane, you know.

You totally ignore when the Republicans cause the very problems that
you are accusing the Demos of causing.

What problems are they causing? Why is somehow noble for the Dems to
****
away money on vote buying giveaways but it's insane to spend money on
national defense?

Hey, you're the one who's talked about economic disasters.

In other words, you're as successful at arguing your ideas are you
are
a speaker manufacturer.

Ah yes, the personal attack, when you have no case go for the
ad-hominem.

Ahhhh, I know it hurts to get poked in the eye like that.

I've supported my case. Everytime you bring something up, I counter
it. You talked about economic disasters, I bring up the worst of the
centery, the Republican-shepherded Great Depression. Then, you try to
back-pedal, claiming that FDR prolonged it, which is insane. The list
goes on and on...

These are *your* tactics - talking out of both sides of your mouth.
Sometimes, it's appropriate to simply smack that mouth.








Well said. It also reeks of hypocrisy for this obnoxious, repulsive RAO
hatemonger and frequent purveyor of personal attacks to complain about
being
insulted by others. After all, he usually only posts on RAO when he's
in
personal attack mode.



Shut up bitch.

Bruce J. Richman

mikemckelvy wrote:

ONLY when your nation has nuclear weapons will we even attempt
to *talk* to you, let alone negotiate. We are making overtures
towards Syria and Iran - invading them next and all they want is
to be left alone.


So they can finance or hide terroists.

You mean like we did? Oh - gosh - did I air some dirty laundry?
I see - we can do that sort of thing but they cannot. Check.

Israel has over 200 launchable missiles at last count and they
have no defense or counter against it. Not even a deterrant.
Then there's the 20,000 pound gorilla backing Israel that
is threatening to squash them flat next year.

Israel is not a threat to anybody not threatening them.

Neither is North Korea or Iran. Leave them alone and they'll
leave us alone. Everyone happy.

We did the same thing when China was our "enemy" - villify them for
having evil nasty nukes. Now that they are our ally, we don't care
at all. Changes every decade or so.

If you make peace with Israel as Egypt has done you get left alone and you
get land back.

Too damn bad Isreal isn't listening.

Two kids squabbling in the sandbox. Literally.

orders are to kill Sadam (Bush's own words in his latest speeches)
if possible.

Produce the documents that say so.

20 million dollar bounty dead or alive, good worldwide, is exactly
this.

Sorry to hear about it. We hear on and on and OMG on about the
Haulocaust, but the larger Russian genoide under Stalin never gets
the same press, despite being four times larger.

Yes, folks, four times larger.

That's because Stalin was popular with the American liberals who actually
praised his as courageous for letting the Ukrainians starve to death when
they weren't denying it.

Also our government was doing the same thing it did in Europe - it
had the data and was looking the other way. McCarthur was right -
we should have kept going and flattened the Solviet Union. Would
have saved countless lives and the whole cold war would have never
happened.

"Joseph Oberlander" wrote in message
...
mikemckelvy wrote:

I guess it really is good to be the King. Who the hell cares what
we do to the rest of the world as long as we have ours?

More bull****. We'd much rather have people living in peace with each
other, it makes life easier for every body. It's also easier to make a
profit that way.

Oh man I just about coughed my my soda on that one.

Too bad no modern government thinks that way, let alone ours.

We were on shaky ground in the last few decades,
but now - we're jsut as corrupt and militaristic as any of
the other nations in the world.

You're confusing this with the last administration.

They're all the same, doofus. Truly. Republican and Republican-lite.

Well, true to form, just like all of the nations of Europe two centuries
ago, we are doing the same things - expansion, annexing areas and
markets,
taking over entire nations...

Wrong again.

So - invading another soviergn nation because we felt like it is
somehow different than invading another soviergn nation because
we felt like it?

It's called Imperialism. Look it up in the dictionary.

Imperialism is invading another country to conquer it and keep it as a
colony. Ther is no such plan for Iraq.

No oil. Sorry - too
poor - go **** off. Our troops would take a week to reach
them and deploy in force. It will be over by then.


Umm, they have diamonds, lots of them.

Ah. Makes sense now. Easier to get blood diamonds out via
corrupt warlords than a democratic government. We wait until
the place is run by a dictator and then do all sorts of back-room
deals with him that their current president would never have
agreed to.

The backroom deals ocurred under Clinton when he had jesse Jackson as an
Ambassador. the world was largely ingoring Liberia and it's President until
Jackson went there and gave them some legitamacy in the eyes of the world.
Otherwise they'd be a footnote

"PLATANO" wrote in message
...

"mikemckelvy" wrote in message
...

"Bruce J. Richman" wrote in message
...
Dave Weil wrote:


On Tue, 15 Jul 2003 16:11:26 -0700, "mikemckelvy"
wrote:


"dave weil" wrote in message
. ..

They invented deficit spending, they abolished the gold
standard.

Ummmmmm, who's taken that to new levels? Created the Platinum
Standard? (here's a hint, who actually balanced the budget

The GOP is why we have a balanced budget.

Actually the last part can be
answered by naming 2 Republican presidents of recent memory).

Most of the economic nightmares we've had they caused.

Yeah, like those nightmare 90s chuckle.

Endured under a Republican president not created by one.

You have no clue about what you are talking about. The majority of
the
90s was under Clinton, a DEMOCRATIC president.

Should have been: created by a GOP led Congress, while the Clinton
administration tried to subvert it, at least for the first 2 years.
Then
magic, Bubba loses control of the House and decides to move to the
middle.

So, we blame the GOP for the highest unemployment figures in years,
*and* the highest defict in history.

Cool.

Like the years AFTER the
Great Depression. Here's a hint for the last one - which party
was
in
power leading up to and at the start of the Great Depression?

Irrelevant. The President doesn't create economic problems or
fix
them.

This is patently untrue. President Reagan singlehandedly caused
the
slide of the dollar against foreign currencies.

Now who doesn't know what they are talking about? How do Presidents
do
such
things? Only Congress can spend money.

You do it by making the statement, "I'd like to see the dollar fall
by
10% against foreign currency". That's exactly what Reagan did and it
had the effect of causing a freefall that went a lot further than
10%.
I know - I was in Germany at the time and was dismayed when he said
this.

Congress does both, with help from the Fed.
FDR made it last longer.

You're insane, you know.

You totally ignore when the Republicans cause the very problems
that
you are accusing the Demos of causing.

What problems are they causing? Why is somehow noble for the Dems to
****
away money on vote buying giveaways but it's insane to spend money
on
national defense?

Hey, you're the one who's talked about economic disasters.

In other words, you're as successful at arguing your ideas are you
are
a speaker manufacturer.

Ah yes, the personal attack, when you have no case go for the
ad-hominem.

Ahhhh, I know it hurts to get poked in the eye like that.

I've supported my case. Everytime you bring something up, I counter
it. You talked about economic disasters, I bring up the worst of the
centery, the Republican-shepherded Great Depression. Then, you try to
back-pedal, claiming that FDR prolonged it, which is insane. The list
goes on and on...

These are *your* tactics - talking out of both sides of your mouth.
Sometimes, it's appropriate to simply smack that mouth.








Well said. It also reeks of hypocrisy for this obnoxious, repulsive
RAO
hatemonger and frequent purveyor of personal attacks to complain about
being
insulted by others.

It reeks of hypocrisy to be called a hatemonger by a hatemonger and personal
attacker.

Didn't I tell you to shut up

After all, he usually only posts on RAO when he's
in
personal attack mode.



Shut up bitch.

Bruce J. Richman

"Joseph Oberlander" wrote in message
...
mikemckelvy wrote:

ONLY when your nation has nuclear weapons will we even attempt
to *talk* to you, let alone negotiate. We are making overtures
towards Syria and Iran - invading them next and all they want is
to be left alone.


So they can finance or hide terroists.

You mean like we did?

Which ones would those be?

Oh - gosh - did I air some dirty laundry?
I see - we can do that sort of thing but they cannot. Check.

Israel has over 200 launchable missiles at last count and they
have no defense or counter against it. Not even a deterrant.
Then there's the 20,000 pound gorilla backing Israel that
is threatening to squash them flat next year.

Israel is not a threat to anybody not threatening them.

Neither is North Korea or Iran.

Why is N. Korea theratening to attack us then if we don't give them aid?

Leave them alone and they'll
leave us alone.
See above.

Everyone happy.

We did the same thing when China was our "enemy" - villify them for
having evil nasty nukes.

Because they were trying to take over asia, duh.

Now that they are our ally, we don't care
at all. Changes every decade or so.

If you make peace with Israel as Egypt has done you get left alone and
you
get land back.

Too damn bad Isreal isn't listening.

They are listening but htey won't stand by while their citizens are
murdered, we wouldn't.

Two kids squabbling in the sandbox. Literally.

orders are to kill Sadam (Bush's own words in his latest speeches)
if possible.

Produce the documents that say so.

20 million dollar bounty dead or alive, good worldwide, is exactly
this.

Wher's the document?

Sorry to hear about it. We hear on and on and OMG on about the
Haulocaust, but the larger Russian genoide under Stalin never gets
the same press, despite being four times larger.

Yes, folks, four times larger.

That's because Stalin was popular with the American liberals who
actually
praised his as courageous for letting the Ukrainians starve to death
when
they weren't denying it.

Also our government was doing the same thing it did in Europe - it
had the data and was looking the other way. McCarthur was right -
we should have kept going and flattened the Solviet Union. Would
have saved countless lives and the whole cold war would have never
happened.

One more thing you can lay at the feet of the democrats.

In my previous response, "one I have" should read "ones [plural] I have."

I would be interested in seeing rebuttals of the starred items.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

"John Atkinson" wrote in message
om...
Joseph Oberlander wrote in
message ...
Arny Krueger wrote:
The idea that you can hold any particular maximum 8-year US
presidential
administration responsible for the current state of the US economy is
yet
another myth.

But...

We can blame one administration for the masive domestic overspending
during their time in offce. 450 billion is a hell of a lot of pork and
waste. That's not even what the war is costing us. All for other
things.

Here's some interesting statistics concerning the current chief executive.
I haven't checked them all out, but the one I have appear to be true:

Resume of George W. Bush
The White House, USA

ACCOMPLISHMENTS AS PRESIDENT:

* I attacked and took over two countries.

* I spent the U.S. surplus and bankrupted the Treasury.

* I shattered the record for biggest annual deficit in history.

* I set an economic record for most private bankruptcies filed
in any 12-month period.

* I set all-time record for biggest drop in the history of the stock
market.

* I am the first president in decades to execute a federal prisoner.

* I am the first president in US history to enter office with a criminal
record.

* In my first year in office I set the all-time record for most days on
vacation by any president in US history.

* After taking the entire month of August off for vacation, I presided
over the worst security failure in US history.

* I set the record for most campaign fundraising trips by any president
in US history.

* In my first two years in office over 2 million Americans lost their
jobs.

* I cut unemployment benefits for more out-of-work Americans than any
other president in US history.

* I set the all-time record for most foreclosures in a 12-month period.

* I appointed more convicted criminals to administration positions than
any president in US history.

* I set the record for the fewest press conferences of any president
since the advent of TV.

* I signed more laws and executive orders amending the Constitution than
any other president in US history.

* I presided over the biggest energy crises in US history and refused to
intervene when corruption was revealed.

* I presided over the highest gasoline prices in US history and refused
to use the national reserves as past presidents have.

* I cut healthcare benefits for war veterans.

* I set the all-time record for most people worldwide to simultaneously
take to the streets to protest me (15 million people), shattering the
record for protest against any person in the history of mankind

* I dissolved more international treaties than any president in US
history.

* I've made my presidency the most secretive and unaccountable of any in
US history.

* Members of my cabinet are the richest of any administration in US
history. (The 'poorest' multimillionaire, Condoleeza Rice, has a Chevron
oil tanker named after her).

* I am the first president in US history to have all 50 states of the
Union simultaneously go bankrupt.

* I presided over the biggest corporate stock market fraud in any market
in any country in the history of the world.

* I am the first president in US history to order a US attack and
military occupation of a sovereign nation, and I did so against the will
of the United Nations and the world community.

* I have created the largest government department bureaucracy in the
history of the United States.

* I set the all-time record for biggest annual budget spending
increases, more than any other president in US history.

* I am the first president in US history to have the United Nations
remove the US from the Human Rights Commission.

* I am the first president in US history to have the United Nations
remove the US from the Elections Monitoring Board.

* I removed more checks and balances, and have the least amount of
Congressional oversight than any presidential administration in US
history.

* I rendered the entire United Nations irrelevant.

* I withdrew from the World Court of Law.

* I refused to allow inspectors access to US prisoners of war and by
default no longer abide by the Geneva Conventions.

* I am the first president in US history to refuse United Nations
election inspectors access during the 2002 US elections.

* I am the all-time US (and world) record holder for most corporate
campaign donations.

* The biggest lifetime contributor to my campaign, who is also one of my
best friends, presided over one of the largest corporate bankruptcy
frauds
in world history (Kenneth Lay, former CEOof Enron Corporation).

*I spent more money on polls and focus groups than any president in US
history.

* I am the first president to run and hide when the US came under attack
(and then lied, saying the enemy had the code to Air Force 1)

* I am the first US president to establish a secret shadow government.

* I took the world's sympathy for the US after 911, and in less than a
year made the US the most resented country in the world (possibly the
biggest diplomatic failure in US and world history).

* I am the first US president in history to have a majority of the
people of Europe (71%)view my presidency as the biggest threat to world
peace and stability.

* I am the first US president in history to have the people of South
Korea more threatened by the US than by their immediate neighbor, North
Korea.

* I changed US policy to allow convicted criminals to be awarded
government contracts.

* I set the all-time record for number of administration appointees who
violated US law by not selling their huge investments in corporations
bidding for gov't contracts.

* I have removed more freedoms and civil liberties for Americans than
any other president in US history.

* In a little over two years I have created the most divided country in
decades, possibly the most divided that the US has been since the civil
war

* I entered office with the strongest economy in US history and
In in less than two years turned every single economic category
heading straight down, record unemployment being the most recent
achievement..

* RECORDS AND REFERENCES:

I have at least one conviction for drunk driving in Maine (Texas
drug conviction has been erased and is not available).

I was AWOL from the National Guard and deserted the military during
a time of war.

I refuse to take a drug test or even answer any questions about drug
use.

All records of my tenure as governor of Texas have been spirited
away to my fathers library, sealed in secrecy and unavailable for
public view.

All records of any SEC investigations into my insider trading or
bankrupt companies are sealed in secrecy and unavailable for public view.

All minutes of meetings of any public corporation for which I served
on the board are sealed in secrecy and unavailable for public view.

Any records or minutes from meetings I (or my VP) attended regarding
public energy policy are sealed in secrecy and unavailable for public
review.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

"John Atkinson" wrote in message
om...
Joseph Oberlander wrote in
message ...
Arny Krueger wrote:
The idea that you can hold any particular maximum 8-year US
presidential
administration responsible for the current state of the US economy is
yet
another myth.

But...

We can blame one administration for the masive domestic overspending
during their time in offce. 450 billion is a hell of a lot of pork and
waste. That's not even what the war is costing us. All for other
things.

Here's some interesting statistics concerning the current chief executive.
I haven't checked them all out, but the one I have appear to be true:

Resume of George W. Bush
The White House, USA

ACCOMPLISHMENTS AS PRESIDENT:

* I attacked and took over two countries.
Should read: Attacked and liberated 2 countries.
* I spent the U.S. surplus and bankrupted the Treasury.
The treasury is not bankrupt, the surplus was projected, and it is not
allowed for the government to have a surplus.
* I shattered the record for biggest annual deficit in history.
A mere number. As has been pointed out the normal way that deficits
have been looked at is as a % of GDP. It was a biger % during WWII.
* I set an economic record for most private bankruptcies filed
in any 12-month period.
HE set no such record. The persons filing did.
* I set all-time record for biggest drop in the history of the stock
market.
The stock market was falling before he took office.
* I am the first president in decades to execute a federal prisoner.
Which prisoner did he execute?
* I am the first president in US history to enter office with a criminal
record.
And he paid his debt. So what?
* In my first year in office I set the all-time record for most days on
vacation by any president in US history.
And.......?
* After taking the entire month of August off for vacation, I presided
over the worst security failure in US history.
Which he had what to do with????
* I set the record for most campaign fundraising trips by any president
in US history.
Previously held by his the guy before him.
* In my first two years in office over 2 million Americans lost their
jobs.
Which he had what to do with?
* I cut unemployment benefits for more out-of-work Americans than any
other president in US history.
So?
* I set the all-time record for most foreclosures in a 12-month period.
What did he foreclose?
* I appointed more convicted criminals to administration positions than
any president in US history.
Convicted of what?
* I set the record for the fewest press conferences of any president
since the advent of TV.
Meaning what?
* I signed more laws and executive orders amending the Constitution than
any other president in US history.
A flat out lie and you know it.
* I presided over the biggest energy crises in US history and refused to
intervene when corrution was revealed.
Nobody has clean hands in this one.
* I presided over the highest gasoline prices in US history and refused
to use the national reserves as past presidents have.
The national reserves would have done nothing to change it and never did.
As I recall they were about the same in the 70's during the embargo.
* I cut healthcare benefits for war veterans.
He can't do that.
* I set the all-time record for most people worldwide to simultaneously
take to the streets to protest me (15 million people), shattering the
record for protest against any person in the history of mankind
Well we do have the internet now, so it's easier for idiots to organize.
* I dissolved more international treaties than any president in US
history.
The Soviet Union disolved so the treaties were with a country that no longer
existed.
* I've made my presidency the most secretive and unaccountable of any in
US history.
IOW, he's tried to stop leaks to the press, good.
* Members of my cabinet are the richest of any administration in US
history. (The 'poorest' multimillionaire, Condoleeza Rice, has a Chevron
oil tanker named after her).
So?
* I am the first president in US history to have all 50 states of the
Union simultaneously go bankrupt.
Which he had what to do with? Nothing.
* I presided over the biggest corporate stock market fraud in any market
in any country in the history of the world.
Which he had nothing to do with.
* I am the first president in US history to order a US attack and
military occupation of a sovereign nation, and I did so against the will
of the United Nations and the world community.
Because the UN had refuse to follow its own instructions. The US needs no
UN mandate to act in its own self interest.
* I have created the largest government department bureaucracy in the
history of the United States.
To organize intelligenge gathering to protect the citizens of the United
States. Intelligence sharing had been eliminated by the Democrats through
things like the Church Commission which felt it should keep the CIA and the
FBI separate.
* I set the all-time record for biggest annual budget spending
increases, more than any other president in US history.
Stuff costs more now, plus he signed spending bills for a lot of pork
that both sides loved.
* I am the first president in US history to have the United Nations
remove the US from the Human Rights Commission.
The UNited Nations has Syria hosting the Human Rights Commission, do you
see any irony there?
* I am the first president in US history to have the United Nations
remove the US from the Elections Monitoring Board.
Perhaps you see now why so many feel the UN is becoming obsolete.
* I removed more checks and balances, and have the least amount of
Congressional oversight than any presidential administration in US
history.
Possibly, but he's been upheld in court by precedent from FDR's
administration.
* I rendered the entire United Nations irrelevant.
They did that themselves.
* I withdrew from the World Court of Law.
About time.
* I refused to allow inspectors access to US prisoners of war and by
default no longer abide by the Geneva Conventions.
We don't have any prisoners of war, we have foriegn combatants.
* I am the first president in US history to refuse United Nations
election inspectors access during the 2002 US elections.
What would they be inspecting.
* I am the all-time US (and world) record holder for most corporate
campaign donations.
Yet it is the Democrat party that recieved the most amount of large
donations while the GOP donations are mostly small.
* The biggest lifetime contributor to my campaign, who is also one of my
best friends, presided over one of the largest corporate bankruptcy
frauds
in world history (Kenneth Lay, former CEOof Enron Corporation).
Therefore what?
*I spent more money on polls and focus groups than any president in US
history.
Hmmm, probably only because his pollsters cost more than Clintons.
* I am the first president to run and hide when the US came under attack
(and then lied, saying the enemy had the code to Air Force 1)
Horse****. You want the enemy to know where the head of state is when
they attack us? IIRC this is SOP.
* I am the first US president to establish a secret shadow government.
Bull****. Proof?
* I took the world's sympathy for the US after 911, and in less than a
year made the US the most resented country in the world (possibly the
biggest diplomatic failure in US and world history).
Most of the world is socialist and resents us anyway, why should we
care? Are they going to stop selling to us?
* I am the first US president in history to have a majority of the
people of Europe (71%)view my presidency as the biggest threat to world
peace and stability.
I guess this is the first time in history that the world has 71% of the
people as ****ing morons.
* I am the first US president in history to have the people of South
Korea more threatened by the US than by their immediate neighbor, North
Korea.
Time to check the education system there. The fcker up north with the nukes
is a much bigger problem.
* I changed US policy to allow convicted criminals to be awarded
government contracts.
Arren't we supposed to forgive? The last president changed the rules
so China could get the computers it needed to target multiple warheads. He
also got the reactors to the N. Koreans they use to make more nukes to
threaten us with.
* I set the all-time record for number of administration appointees who
violated US law by not selling their huge investments in corporations
bidding for gov't contracts.
I want to see the proof . The last guy see a record for most staff who
couldn't pass a drug test.

* I have removed more freedoms and civil liberties for Americans than
any other president in US history.
Flat out lie.
* In a little over two years I have created the most divided country in
decades, possibly the most divided that the US has been since the civil
war
Flat out lie, how do explain the approval ratings.
* I entered office with the strongest economy in US history and
In in less than two years turned every single economic category
heading straight down, record unemployment being the most recent
achievement..
Flat out lie.
* RECORDS AND REFERENCES:

I have at least one conviction for drunk driving in Maine (Texas
drug conviction has been erased and is not available).

I was AWOL from the National Guard and deserted the military during
a time of war.
Proof?
I refuse to take a drug test or even answer any questions about drug
use.
Did Clinton?
All records of my tenure as governor of Texas have been spirited
away to my fathers library, sealed in secrecy and unavailable for
public view.
So?
All records of any SEC investigations into my insider trading or
bankrupt companies are sealed in secrecy and unavailable for public view.
Because there was nothing there.
All minutes of meetings of any public corporation for which I served
on the board are sealed in secrecy and unavailable for public view.
So?
Any records or minutes from meetings I (or my VP) attended regarding
public energy policy are sealed in secrecy and unavailable for public
review.
So?
John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile
Where'd you get this ****, the DNC?

"John Atkinson" wrote in message
om...
Joseph Oberlander wrote in
message ...
Arny Krueger wrote:
The idea that you can hold any particular maximum 8-year US
presidential
administration responsible for the current state of the US economy is
yet
another myth.

But...

We can blame one administration for the masive domestic overspending
during their time in offce. 450 billion is a hell of a lot of pork and
waste. That's not even what the war is costing us. All for other
things.

Here's some interesting statistics concerning the current chief executive.
I haven't checked them all out, but the one I have appear to be true:

Resume of George W. Bush
The White House, USA

These are statististics concerning him they incidents that happened during
his adninistrtion, most of which he had noting to do with.

ACCOMPLISHMENTS AS PRESIDENT:

* I attacked and took over two countries.
Liberated two countries.
* I spent the U.S. surplus and bankrupted the Treasury.
The surplus was projected and is not allwed anyway. the governement is
required to give it back.
* I shattered the record for biggest annual deficit in history.
A mere number that without context is meaningless. The % of GDP is
normally how it is viewed and as such has been much higher.
* I set an economic record for most private bankruptcies filed
in any 12-month period.
HE did no such thing.
* I set all-time record for biggest drop in the history of the stock
market.
HE did no such thing.
* I am the first president in decades to execute a federal prisoner.
Proof.
* I am the first president in US history to enter office with a criminal
record.
The last one was the first one to be impeached, so?
* In my first year in office I set the all-time record for most days on
vacation by any president in US history.
SO?
* After taking the entire month of August off for vacation, I presided
over the worst security failure in US history.
Which he had what to with?
* I set the record for most campaign fundraising trips by any president
in US history.
So?
* In my first two years in office over 2 million Americans lost their
jobs.
Which he had what to do with?
* I cut unemployment benefits for more out-of-work Americans than any
other president in US history.
So?
* I set the all-time record for most foreclosures in a 12-month period.
HE did no such thing.
* I appointed more convicted criminals to administration positions than
any president in US history.
And the prvious guy set a record for most staff members who couldn't
pass a drug test.
* I set the record for the fewest press conferences of any president
since the advent of TV.
So?
* I signed more laws and executive orders amending the Constitution than
any other president in US history.
Flat out lie. There have been no ammendments to the Constitution in this
term.

* I presided over the biggest energy crises in US history and refused to
intervene when corruption was revealed.
Why should he?
* I presided over the highest gasoline prices in US history and refused
to use the national reserves as past presidents have.
Possibly, but I don't think they got more than a penny or 2 higher than
in the 70's embargo period.
* I cut healthcare benefits for war veterans.
I don't believe he can do that.
* I set the all-time record for most people worldwide to simultaneously
take to the streets to protest me (15 million people), shattering the
record for protest against any person in the history of mankind
The internet makes it eaier for these people to organize.
* I dissolved more international treaties than any president in US
history.
The Soviet Union disolved so the treaties with them became moot.
* I've made my presidency the most secretive and unaccountable of any in
US history.
He stopped press leaks.
* Members of my cabinet are the richest of any administration in US
history. (The 'poorest' multimillionaire, Condoleeza Rice, has a Chevron
oil tanker named after her).
So?
* I am the first president in US history to have all 50 states of the
Union simultaneously go bankrupt.
What did he have to do with it?
* I presided over the biggest corporate stock market fraud in any market
in any country in the history of the world.
What did he have to do with it?
* I am the first president in US history to order a US attack and
military occupation of a sovereign nation, and I did so against the will
of the United Nations and the world community.
In order to protect the citizens of the US.
* I have created the largest government department bureaucracy in the
history of the United States.
In order to protect the citizens of the US, after years of having intel
disallowed from being shared between the FBI and the CIA thanks to the
Church Commission.
* I set the all-time record for biggest annual budget spending
increases, more than any other president in US history.
Well there was a lot of pork spending that both sides seemed to love.

* I am the first president in US history to have the United Nations
remove the US from the Human Rights Commission.
The same UN that has Syria as host of the Commission on Human Rights?
Clearly their commisions are a joke.
* I am the first president in US history to have the United Nations
remove the US from the Elections Monitoring Board.
SO?
* I removed more checks and balances, and have the least amount of
Congressional oversight than any presidential administration in US
history.
A flat out lie.
* I rendered the entire United Nations irrelevant.
I think they did that themselves.
* I withdrew from the World Court of Law.
Since it's sole purpose seems to be to bash the US, why not.
* I refused to allow inspectors access to US prisoners of war and by
default no longer abide by the Geneva Conventions.
We don't have any prisonors of war.
* I am the first president in US history to refuse United Nations
election inspectors access during the 2002 US elections.
So?
* I am the all-time US (and world) record holder for most corporate
campaign donations.
While the other party is the record holder for most illegal
contributions from a foriegn country.
* The biggest lifetime contributor to my campaign, who is also one of my
best friends, presided over one of the largest corporate bankruptcy
frauds
in world history (Kenneth Lay, former CEOof Enron Corporation).
And got nothing for it and will probably go to jail.
*I spent more money on polls and focus groups than any president in US
history.
Most likely because he hires more expensive pollsters than his predecessor.

* I am the first president to run and hide when the US came under attack
(and then lied, saying the enemy had the code to Air Force 1)
A flat out lie.
* I am the first US president to establish a secret shadow government.
A flat out lie.
* I took the world's sympathy for the US after 911, and in less than a
year made the US the most resented country in the world (possibly the
biggest diplomatic failure in US and world history).
So? What will they do to us? Haul off and do nothing?
* I am the first US president in history to have a majority of the
people of Europe (71%)view my presidency as the biggest threat to world
peace and stability.
**** em, they never like anybody that does something positive.
* I am the first US president in history to have the people of South
Korea more threatened by the US than by their immediate neighbor, North
Korea.
Time to check the education system there.
* I changed US policy to allow convicted criminals to be awarded
government contracts.
Aren't we supposed to forgive.
* I set the all-time record for number of administration appointees who
violated US law by not selling their huge investments in corporations
bidding for gov't contracts.
Proof?
* I have removed more freedoms and civil liberties for Americans than
any other president in US history.
A flat out lie.
* In a little over two years I have created the most divided country in
decades, possibly the most divided that the US has been since the civil
war

* I entered office with the strongest economy in US history and
In in less than two years turned every single economic category
heading straight down, record unemployment being the most recent
achievement..
Not because of Bush.
* RECORDS AND REFERENCES:

I have at least one conviction for drunk driving in Maine (Texas
drug conviction has been erased and is not available).
So?
I was AWOL from the National Guard and deserted the military during
a time of war.
Proof?
I refuse to take a drug test or even answer any questions about drug
use.
Is he the first?
All records of my tenure as governor of Texas have been spirited
away to my fathers library, sealed in secrecy and unavailable for
public view.
So?
All records of any SEC investigations into my insider trading or
bankrupt companies are sealed in secrecy and unavailable for public view.
Because there was nothing there.
All minutes of meetings of any public corporation for which I served
on the board are sealed in secrecy and unavailable for public view.
So?
Any records or minutes from meetings I (or my VP) attended regarding
public energy policy are sealed in secrecy and unavailable for public
review.
So?
John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile
Where'd you get this ****? The DNC?

"mikemckelvy" wrote in message

"John Atkinson" wrote in message
om...
Joseph Oberlander wrote in
message ...
Arny Krueger wrote:
The idea that you can hold any particular maximum 8-year US
presidential
administration responsible for the current state of the US economy
is yet another myth.

But...

We can blame one administration for the masive domestic overspending
during their time in offce. 450 billion is a hell of a lot of pork
and waste. That's not even what the war is costing us. All for
other things.

Here's some interesting statistics concerning the current chief
executive. I haven't checked them all out, but the one I have appear
to be true:

Resume of George W. Bush
The White House, USA

These are statististics concerning him they incidents that happened
during his adninistrtion, most of which he had noting to do with.

ACCOMPLISHMENTS AS PRESIDENT:

* I attacked and took over two countries.
Liberated two countries.
* I spent the U.S. surplus and bankrupted the Treasury.
The surplus was projected and is not allwed anyway. the
governement is required to give it back. * I shattered the record
for biggest annual deficit in history. A mere number that without
context is meaningless. The % of GDP is
normally how it is viewed and as such has been much higher.
* I set an economic record for most private bankruptcies filed
in any 12-month period.
HE did no such thing.
* I set all-time record for biggest drop in the history of the stock
market.
HE did no such thing.
* I am the first president in decades to execute a federal prisoner.
Proof.
* I am the first president in US history to enter office with a
criminal record.
The last one was the first one to be impeached, so?
* In my first year in office I set the all-time record for most
days on vacation by any president in US history.
SO?
* After taking the entire month of August off for vacation, I
presided over the worst security failure in US history.
Which he had what to with?
* I set the record for most campaign fundraising trips by any
president in US history.
So?
* In my first two years in office over 2 million Americans lost
their jobs.
Which he had what to do with?
* I cut unemployment benefits for more out-of-work Americans than
any other president in US history.
So?
* I set the all-time record for most foreclosures in a 12-month
period. HE did no such thing.
* I appointed more convicted criminals to administration positions
than any president in US history.
And the prvious guy set a record for most staff members who
couldn't pass a drug test. * I set the record for the fewest press
conferences of any president since the advent of TV.
So?
* I signed more laws and executive orders amending the Constitution
than any other president in US history.
Flat out lie. There have been no ammendments to the Constitution in
this term.

* I presided over the biggest energy crises in US history and
refused to intervene when corruption was revealed.
Why should he?
* I presided over the highest gasoline prices in US history and
refused to use the national reserves as past presidents have.
Possibly, but I don't think they got more than a penny or 2 higher
than in the 70's embargo period. * I cut healthcare benefits for
war veterans.
I don't believe he can do that.
* I set the all-time record for most people worldwide to
simultaneously take to the streets to protest me (15 million
people), shattering the record for protest against any person in
the history of mankind The internet makes it eaier for these
people to organize. * I dissolved more international treaties than
any president in US history.
The Soviet Union disolved so the treaties with them became moot.
* I've made my presidency the most secretive and unaccountable of
any in US history.
He stopped press leaks.
* Members of my cabinet are the richest of any administration in US
history. (The 'poorest' multimillionaire, Condoleeza Rice, has a
Chevron oil tanker named after her).
So?
* I am the first president in US history to have all 50 states of the
Union simultaneously go bankrupt.
What did he have to do with it?
* I presided over the biggest corporate stock market fraud in any
market in any country in the history of the world.
What did he have to do with it?
* I am the first president in US history to order a US attack and
military occupation of a sovereign nation, and I did so against the
will of the United Nations and the world community.
In order to protect the citizens of the US.
* I have created the largest government department bureaucracy in
the history of the United States.
In order to protect the citizens of the US, after years of having
intel
disallowed from being shared between the FBI and the CIA thanks to the
Church Commission.
* I set the all-time record for biggest annual budget spending
increases, more than any other president in US history.
Well there was a lot of pork spending that both sides seemed to love.

* I am the first president in US history to have the United Nations
remove the US from the Human Rights Commission.
The same UN that has Syria as host of the Commission on Human
Rights?
Clearly their commisions are a joke.
* I am the first president in US history to have the United Nations
remove the US from the Elections Monitoring Board.
SO?
* I removed more checks and balances, and have the least amount of
Congressional oversight than any presidential administration in US
history.
A flat out lie.
* I rendered the entire United Nations irrelevant.
I think they did that themselves.
* I withdrew from the World Court of Law.
Since it's sole purpose seems to be to bash the US, why not.
* I refused to allow inspectors access to US prisoners of war and by
default no longer abide by the Geneva Conventions.
We don't have any prisonors of war.
* I am the first president in US history to refuse United Nations
election inspectors access during the 2002 US elections.
So?
* I am the all-time US (and world) record holder for most corporate
campaign donations.
While the other party is the record holder for most illegal
contributions from a foriegn country.
* The biggest lifetime contributor to my campaign, who is also one
of my best friends, presided over one of the largest corporate
bankruptcy frauds in world history (Kenneth Lay, former CEOof Enron
Corporation). And got nothing for it and will probably go to jail.
*I spent more money on polls and focus groups than any president in
US history.
Most likely because he hires more expensive pollsters than his
predecessor.

* I am the first president to run and hide when the US came under
attack (and then lied, saying the enemy had the code to Air Force 1)
A flat out lie.
* I am the first US president to establish a secret shadow
government. A flat out lie.
* I took the world's sympathy for the US after 911, and in less
than a year made the US the most resented country in the world
(possibly the biggest diplomatic failure in US and world history).
So? What will they do to us? Haul off and do nothing?
* I am the first US president in history to have a majority of the
people of Europe (71%)view my presidency as the biggest threat to
world peace and stability.
**** em, they never like anybody that does something positive.
* I am the first US president in history to have the people of
South Korea more threatened by the US than by their immediate
neighbor, North Korea.
Time to check the education system there.
* I changed US policy to allow convicted criminals to be awarded
government contracts.
Aren't we supposed to forgive.
* I set the all-time record for number of administration appointees
who violated US law by not selling their huge investments in
corporations bidding for gov't contracts.
Proof?
* I have removed more freedoms and civil liberties for Americans
than any other president in US history.
A flat out lie.
* In a little over two years I have created the most divided
country in decades, possibly the most divided that the US has been
since the civil war

* I entered office with the strongest economy in US history and
In in less than two years turned every single economic category
heading straight down, record unemployment being the most recent
achievement..
Not because of Bush.
* RECORDS AND REFERENCES:

I have at least one conviction for drunk driving in Maine (Texas
drug conviction has been erased and is not available).
So?
I was AWOL from the National Guard and deserted the military during
a time of war.
Proof?
I refuse to take a drug test or even answer any questions about
drug use.
Is he the first?
All records of my tenure as governor of Texas have been spirited
away to my fathers library, sealed in secrecy and unavailable for
public view.
So?
All records of any SEC investigations into my insider trading or
bankrupt companies are sealed in secrecy and unavailable for public
view. Because there was nothing there.
All minutes of meetings of any public corporation for which I
served on the board are sealed in secrecy and unavailable for
public view. So?
Any records or minutes from meetings I (or my VP) attended regarding
public energy policy are sealed in secrecy and unavailable for
public review.
So?
John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile
Where'd you get this ****? The DNC?

It's all over the web. Search on any sentence as a phrase.

mikemckelvy wrote:

Imperialism is invading another country to conquer it and keep it as a
colony. Ther is no such plan for Iraq.

There is no plan for extraction or a timeline for leaving AND
we've taken over their oil industry.

We're Imperialists until we start making plans to leave. It's
the same excuse the U.K. made in Egypt - "we're here temporarily"
for decades - while they sucked resources out of Egypt.

mikemckelvy wrote:
"Joseph Oberlander" wrote in message
...

mikemckelvy wrote:


ONLY when your nation has nuclear weapons will we even attempt
to *talk* to you, let alone negotiate. We are making overtures
towards Syria and Iran - invading them next and all they want is
to be left alone.


So they can finance or hide terroists.

You mean like we did?

Which ones would those be?

Gheez - let's see - all those dictators in the past, the Cold War,
everyting in Central America(CIA trained deathsquads meant to destabalize
governments we don't like, anyone?) Indonesia, the list goes on and on
the immoral crap we fund behind the scenes.

Israel is not a threat to anybody not threatening them.

Neither is North Korea or Iran.

Why is N. Korea theratening to attack us then if we don't give them aid?

No, they are threatening us because we lumped them in with the Iraqis
and Iranians as "the Axis of Evil" over a year ago - making it clear that
we had designs to remove their leaders from power if we could.

The allusion to Hitler and WWI by using the word "Axis" was highly
offensive to them as well. Of course they're ****ed off after being
threatened with being invaded by us.


Produce the documents that say so.

20 million dollar bounty dead or alive, good worldwide, is exactly
this.

Wher's the document?

Oh gheez - turn on the news. 30 million(15 million each) for his two
sons will be given to the informant to start a new life in the U.S.
(cause he's a dead man in Iraq for sucking up to the U.S. like that)

That leaves the top dog - $20 million dead or alive. Legitimate
offer from our government, good worldwide. That's basically
the same as hiring a hit-man to take out your enemy and has
even our allies yelling about our policy of not assasinating
foriegn leaders.(as in - WTF about your policy of..."


Also our government was doing the same thing it did in Europe - it
had the data and was looking the other way. McCarthur was right -
we should have kept going and flattened the Solviet Union. Would
have saved countless lives and the whole cold war would have never
happened.

One more thing you can lay at the feet of the democrats.

Everyone did it - the U.S. was very racist and eltist back then.
But, yes, we shold have taken his advice and steamrolled on into
Russia.

John Atkinson wrote:

* I am the first president in US history to order a US attack and
military occupation of a sovereign nation, and I did so against the will
of the United Nations and the world community.

Actually, most every president in our history has done this if you
count covert operations and incidents like Rosevelt attacking
Cuba and other nonsese.

* I am the first president in US history to have the United Nations
remove the US from the Human Rights Commission.

God I wish they would find a way to remove us from the U.N. security
council. There MUST be a way to remove a permanent member from
that position - they can't have made such a body without a way
to rectify such problems.

* I rendered the entire United Nations irrelevant.

Only to us. Of course, the 20,000 lb gorilla with all the guns and
bombs going off on eht rest of the world...

Watch our leaders get brought up on war crimes charges in a few years.
Serve their asses right. You do NOT invade another soviergn nation
becauise you feel like it without being seen as the instigator, just
like Russia did in Eastery Europe and (insert dozens of other countries
in the last 100 years)

All were denounced for their hostile imperialistic actions.

Expect serious fallout for decades because of this, just like how
Russia got flak for invading Afganistan.

* I refused to allow inspectors access to US prisoners of war and by
default no longer abide by the Geneva Conventions.

Technically we never signed the Geneva Convention. We've never
signed anything that hinders us in any way.

* I am the first US president to establish a secret shadow government.

Actually, no. We've been doing this for decades now.

* I am the first US president in history to have a majority of the
people of Europe (71%)view my presidency as the biggest threat to world
peace and stability.

Plus a hell of a lot of Americans. Real patriots stand up and say
What the HELL is going on and how are we being sold out?


* In a little over two years I have created the most divided country in
decades, possibly the most divided that the US has been since the civil
war

Nope - false. For instance, the nation was just as divided before
WWII - huge anti-war sentiment that the government wanted to get
on the pro-war side.

So they did exacttly what we did with 9/11 - they KNEW an attack was
coming soon, so they didn;t let it happen so much as just let down
every defense and make themselves completely vulnerable.

We knew an attack was coming in weeks and absolutely NOTHING
was done. The only explination is that we wanted to make it easy
for them to do something so as to give us an excuse to go to war.

Of course, what they did - *slightly* bigger than the hijacking and
hostage situation we probably envisioned.

"Joseph Oberlander" wrote in message


mikemckelvy wrote:

Imperialism is invading another country to conquer it and keep it as
a colony. Ther is no such plan for Iraq.

There is no plan for extraction or a timeline for leaving AND
we've taken over their oil industry.

We're Imperialists until we start making plans to leave.

Not really.

Besides, there's always been a plan to leave Iraq.

It's the same excuse the U.K. made in Egypt - "we're here temporarily"
for decades - while they sucked resources out of Egypt.

As usual, you've got your history wrong and/or incomplete. The UK didn't
occupy Egypt all by themselves, they occupied it in tandem with France. The
UK and France didn't occupy all of Egypt, mainly just the Suez canal. There
actually was an official sunset for the occupation, but at the time that
Egypt ejected them (with US assistance, another thing you didn't mention)
there were several decades to go on the lease.

"dave weil" wrote in message


So, how are all of those schools ... (going to be built and maintained).

Yet another Weil boo-boo.

Here's some questions for Weil to answer.

(1) Count all federally-run universities, high schools, middle schools or
grade schools.

(2) Count all state-run universities, high schools, middle schools or grade
schools.

(3) Count all county-run universities, high schools, middle schools or grade
schools.

(4) Count all municipality-run universities, high schools, middle schools or
grade schools.

(5) Count all privately-run universities, high schools, middle schools or
grade schools.

I believe that in every category of school, (1) will have the smallest
counts, by far. This answers his question about who is going to run the
schools - they are run by states, counties, municipalities, and private
organizations, NOT the federal government.

(How are the) ...roads going to get built and maintained?

Same questions, same answers.

I'll bet Weil thinks that the interstates are maintained on a day-to-day
basis by federal officers and federal road crews. Now I've been in his state
and lots of other states, and even the interstates are maintained and
patrolled by the counties and states.

Did the federal government build and maintain the road in front of Weil's
house?

LOL!

Most roads are built and maintained by local municipalities.

OK, let's watch Weil squirm out of this one!

;-)

Gibbering Oberdweeb said:

John Atkinson wrote:

* I am the first president in US history to order a US attack and
military occupation of a sovereign nation, and I did so against the will
of the United Nations and the world community.

Actually, most every president in our history has done this if you
count covert operations and incidents like Rosevelt attacking
Cuba and other nonsese.

Really? Are you sure you're not simply being stupid again?

Go to your dictionary and look up "military occupation".


We knew an attack was coming in weeks and absolutely NOTHING
was done. The only explination is that we wanted to make it easy
for them to do something so as to give us an excuse to go to war.

inexpressible incredulity

You are some piece of work, Obie.

On Fri, 25 Jul 2003 05:50:07 -0400, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

"dave weil" wrote in message


So, how are all of those schools ... (going to be built and maintained).

Yet another Weil boo-boo.

Here's some questions for Weil to answer.

(1) Count all federally-run universities, high schools, middle schools or
grade schools.

(2) Count all state-run universities, high schools, middle schools or grade
schools.

(3) Count all county-run universities, high schools, middle schools or grade
schools.

(4) Count all municipality-run universities, high schools, middle schools or
grade schools.

(5) Count all privately-run universities, high schools, middle schools or
grade schools.

I believe that in every category of school, (1) will have the smallest
counts, by far. This answers his question about who is going to run the
schools - they are run by states, counties, municipalities, and private
organizations, NOT the federal government.

He duidn't say *federal* government, he said *government*.

sorry, you lose.

Again.

(How are the) ...roads going to get built and maintained?

Same questions, same answers.

I'll bet Weil thinks that the interstates are maintained on a day-to-day
basis by federal officers and federal road crews.

They are maintained by contracts *maintained* by government. Same
difference. What pays for those contracts? Taxes. (except for those
toll raods that are an extreme minority of all roads in the US). For
instance, I think that here in Tennessee you have exactly 0% of all
roads run on a toll system. The percentage rises of course on the
Eastern Seaboard, but it's still probably only 1% of all roads.

Now I've been in his state
and lots of other states, and even the interstates are maintained and
patrolled by the counties and states.

Governments which are run by laws and funded by taxes.

Did the federal government build and maintain the road in front of Weil's
house?

Did he say federal government? Nope.

LOL!

Most roads are built and maintained by local municipalities.

Governments.

OK, let's watch Weil squirm out of this one!

Well, that was pretty easy.

On Fri, 25 Jul 2003 09:25:58 -0400, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

"dave weil" wrote in message


On Fri, 25 Jul 2003 05:50:07 -0400, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

"dave weil" wrote in message


So, how are all of those schools ... (going to be built and
maintained).

Yet another Weil boo-boo.

Here's some questions for Weil to answer.

(1) Count all federally-run universities, high schools, middle
schools or grade schools.

(2) Count all state-run universities, high schools, middle schools
or grade schools.

(3) Count all county-run universities, high schools, middle schools
or grade schools.

(4) Count all municipality-run universities, high schools, middle
schools or grade schools.

(5) Count all privately-run universities, high schools, middle
schools or grade schools.

I believe that in every category of school, (1) will have the
smallest counts, by far. This answers his question about who is
going to run the schools - they are run by states, counties,
municipalities, and private organizations, NOT the federal
government.

He duidn't (sic) say *federal* government, he said *government*.

sorry, you lose.

Again.

(How are the) ...roads going to get built and maintained?

Same questions, same answers.

I'll bet Weil thinks that the interstates are maintained on a
day-to-day basis by federal officers and federal road crews.

They are maintained by contracts *maintained* by government.

You didn't say federal government did you Weil? Below you try to make that
an issue so I'll make it an issue here.

Weil, as turnabout is fair play, you lose.

Again.


Same
difference. What pays for those contracts? Taxes. (except for those
toll raods (sic) that are an extreme minority of all roads in the US). For
instance, I think that here in Tennessee you have exactly 0% of all
roads run on a toll system. The percentage rises of course on the
Eastern Seaboard, but it's still probably only 1% of all roads.

Irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

Now I've been in his state
and lots of other states, and even the interstates are maintained and
patrolled by the counties and states.

Governments which are run by laws and funded by taxes.

Did the federal government build and maintain the road in front of
Weil's house?

Did he say federal government? Nope.

In the context (see thread title) that's the government that is being
discussed. Or Weil do you seriously think that the sovereign state of
Tennessee invaded Iraq all by itself looking for weapons of mass
destruction?

LOL!

Weil, as turnabout is fair play, you lose.

Again.

I ask again - without federal money, how many schools and highways
would be built.

Maybe Mr. Krueger doesn't think that there are any federal monies
involved in the building and maintenance of highways and schools.

Of course, he would be wrong.

And, of course, without the federal government, we wouldn't have a
single mile of interstate highways.

He loses.

Again.

"mikemckelvy" wrote in message
...
"John Atkinson" wrote in message
om...
Resume of George W. Bush
The White House, USA

These are statististics concerning him they incidents that happened during
his [administration], most of which he had noting to do with.

Okay. I had assumed that as the head of the executive branch of government,
the president is ultimately responsible for the acts of his adminstration.
This is certainly what I learned during my study for my US citizenship exam.
As Harry Truman stated, "the buck stops here" ie, with the presidency.

snip

I have at least one conviction for drunk driving in Maine (Texas
drug conviction has been erased and is not available).

So?

I would have thought this relevant, given Bush's record as governor of
Texas and his attitude to drug use by those who do not share his
membership in the "lucky sperm" club.

I was AWOL from the National Guard and deserted the military during
a time of war.

Proof?

This seems to have been well-documented, mainly in the Boston Globe, but
also in other major media such as the San Francisco Chronicle. A summary
can be found at
http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-an...?msg_id=003z8g

Where'd you get this ****? The DNC?

It is circulating on the Web, so I thought I would research some of the
statements. So far, those I have looked up appear to be based on fact.
The only rebuttals of them either say they are untrue because they
were not published in approved publications or say something semantically
void, such as "So?" or agree they are true but substitute a different word,
such as "liberate" for "invade."

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
It's a big list. Atkinson didn't write it in an afternoon. He didn't
write it at all.

I haven't claimed otherwise. As I wrote in another post, the list has
been circulating on the Web for a while. I was interested in Mr.
McKelvy's
response. He did respond, but mostly not in any substantive manner.

The thesis of this claim is that it's a bad thing to be a multimillionaire.
Remember, Atkinson is a multimillionaire.

It would be nice to be a multimillionaire. Sadly, I am not.

it's typical of small minds like Atkinson and Weil to be sucked in by
propaganda like this.

As I wrote, the statements that I have looked into appear to be based
on
fact, which is why I posted it, to see Mr. McKelvy's response. If
there
are some of the statements which are a stretch, then there are still
enough that are apparently true to raise doubts about George W. Bush's
fitness to be president, at least in my opinion.

For one thing it absolves them of taking responsibility for their own
lives.

Why? Surely such examination of the President's record is part and
parcel
of the spirited debate intended by the nation's founders? And
shouldn't
the chief executive be accountable to the electorate? If the commander
of
the country's armed forces is responsible for putting men and women in
harm's way, isn't his own behavior when in uniform relevant to how he
handles that responsibility.

Thanks Atkinson and Weil for sharing, and thanks for showing your true
colors.

You're welcome Mr. Krueger.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

On 25 Jul 2003 08:52:19 -0700, (John
Atkinson) wrote:

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
It's a big list. Atkinson didn't write it in an afternoon. He didn't
write it at all.

I haven't claimed otherwise. As I wrote in another post, the list has
been circulating on the Web for a while. I was interested in Mr.
McKelvy's
response. He did respond, but mostly not in any substantive manner.

The thesis of this claim is that it's a bad thing to be a multimillionaire.
Remember, Atkinson is a multimillionaire.

It would be nice to be a multimillionaire. Sadly, I am not.

Ahhhh, another false claim by Mr. Krueger.

Does his hatred and envy of you never end?

"Joseph Oberlander" wrote in message
...
mikemckelvy wrote:

Imperialism is invading another country to conquer it and keep it as a
colony. There is no such plan for Iraq.

There is no plan for extraction or a timeline for leaving AND
we've taken over their oil industry.

We will leave when things are stable enough that it safe to do so.
We are rebuilding their oil industry which we kept Saddam from destroying,
thanks to our special ops guys.
The Iraqi people will profit from the oil industry vastly more than they
ever did under Saddam.

We're Imperialists until we start making plans to leave. It's
the same excuse the U.K. made in Egypt - "we're here temporarily"
for decades - while they sucked resources out of Egypt.

We are not the U.K. and this is not the 19th century.

Jacob Kramer said to ****-for-Brains:

Here's a question for you to answer:

1. Total of your education costs (i.e. facilities, books, teacher
salaries) paid for by yourself.

2. Total of your education costs paid for by taxes.

3. 2/(1+2).

You can keep the absolute numbers to yourself, but how about sharing
with us the percentage in 3?

I don't see the significance of the ratio you're inquiring about.
Just to put it into a real-world context, here are some numbers
that might have been valid back in the '60s when Mr. **** was
sliding through community college:

1. $1200
2. $3600
3. 2/($1200+$3600) = 2/$4800= 1/$2400

What meaning does that ratio have?

"dave weil" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 24 Jul 2003 14:14:00 -0700, "mikemckelvy"
wrote:


I've supported my case. Everytime you bring something up, I counter
it. You talked about economic disasters, I bring up the worst of the
centery, the Republican-shepherded Great Depression. Then, you try to
back-pedal, claiming that FDR prolonged it, which is insane. The list
goes on and on...

He did prolong it.

You don't know your history.

I know enough to know that both sides have blood on their hands, which why I
don't belong to either of them. I also know that there in a concerted
effort by the left to rewrite history.

I didn't defend the GOP for the depression or deny they
caused it. I spoken often on the idea that the government should stay
out
of the economy entirely. The only job they really have is law
enforcement
and national defense IMO.

So, how are all of those schools and roads going to get built and
maintained?

Privately.

And if you think that the government can "stay out of the economy
entirely", you're just this side of crazy.

Let's give it a try. Aside from government spending for defense, law
enforcement, and the judical system there's no other input into the economy
government would have.

These are *your* tactics - talking out of both sides of your mouth.
Sometimes, it's appropriate to simply smack that mouth.

On opinion you get to have. Pity you can't be gentlemanly enough to stay
impersonal and on topic. My point is still valid the left has created
many
more problems than it has solved. they've prolonged problems and created
much suffering in the country and the world because they simply don't
want
the GOP to be seen in a good light for anything.

Back at ya.

The numbers tally up far heavier on the left.

Of course it's ****ty when either side does wrong and I call both sides
on it.
The simple truth is the left lost any claim to decency when they lost
guys
like Scoop Jackson. There used to be many more Democrats who actually
cared
about the country and less about partisan politics. Those days are over.
Now they have Daschle and Rangle and Clinton. Let's not forget our own
Governor, Gray Davis. You can have them.

And no mention of *anyone* from the other end of the aisle.

You have the floor mention them.

I wonder what you think about buying recall elections...how partisan
can a party be?

First of all, that's an outright lie. You cannot buy a recall election you
can legally pay people to go out and collect signatures as Issa did. Are
you aware that Davis had people on the payroll with petitons that had no
legal validity saying stop the recall? They served no purpose other than to
muddy the waters.

Davis is also a guy who when campaigning against Diane Fienstein ran an ad
comparing her to a tax cheat and convicted criminal. He spent 10 mill
painting Richard Riordan as a right winger when he is about as moderate as
they come.

He issued a hiring freeze and then hired 37,000 more people.
The income into the state treasury grew 24% during his first term but he and
the democrat legislature spent 37% more, then he hid the numbers from the
electorate until after the election, (you can read about it in the L.A.
Times). The guy he was running against was a ****ing moron as an opponent
and Davis beat him only by a few points. The guy is scum. His own Lt.
Governor and he don't speak for months at a time. He ****ed us by signing
in secret, long term energy contracts that put our prices for electricity
through the roof. You don't get a 25% approval rating from just partisan
Republians in a state that's got a huge majority of Democrats.

"Joseph Oberlander" wrote in message
...
mikemckelvy wrote:
"Joseph Oberlander" wrote in message
...

mikemckelvy wrote:


ONLY when your nation has nuclear weapons will we even attempt
to *talk* to you, let alone negotiate. We are making overtures
towards Syria and Iran - invading them next and all they want is
to be left alone.


So they can finance or hide terroists.

You mean like we did?

Which ones would those be?

Gheez - let's see - all those dictators in the past, the Cold War,
everyting in Central America(CIA trained deathsquads meant to destabalize
governments we don't like, anyone?) Indonesia, the list goes on and on
the immoral crap we fund behind the scenes.

Israel is not a threat to anybody not threatening them.

Neither is North Korea or Iran.

Why is N. Korea theratening to attack us then if we don't give them aid?

No, they are threatening us because we lumped them in with the Iraqis
and Iranians as "the Axis of Evil" over a year ago - making it clear that
we had designs to remove their leaders from power if we could.

because they belong there, theyve been selling weapons and god knows what to
other terrorists to finance their failing system. the kindest thing we
could do is pop a cap in Kim's ass and let the people start over.

The allusion to Hitler and WWI by using the word "Axis" was highly
offensive to them as well.

Tough ****, Kim a pig.

Of course they're ****ed off after being
threatened with being invaded by us.


No their not, they want money and this is a tactic Kim uses to get and has
done so in the past.
Produce the documents that say so.

20 million dollar bounty dead or alive, good worldwide, is exactly
this.

Wher's the document?

Oh gheez - turn on the news. 30 million(15 million each) for his two
sons will be given to the informant to start a new life in the U.S.
(cause he's a dead man in Iraq for sucking up to the U.S. like that)

He will be given the money but we would have much rather had them alive.

That leaves the top dog - $20 million dead or alive.

Isn't more like information leading to...............?

Legitimate
offer from our government, good worldwide. That's basically
the same as hiring a hit-man to take out your enemy and has
even our allies yelling about our policy of not assasinating
foriegn leaders.(as in - WTF about your policy of..."

We didn't assasinate the sons and we aren't going to do it to the father, we
want him in court.

Also our government was doing the same thing it did in Europe - it
had the data and was looking the other way. McCarthur was right -
we should have kept going and flattened the Solviet Union. Would
have saved countless lives and the whole cold war would have never
happened.

One more thing you can lay at the feet of the democrats.

Everyone did it -

Everyone who? You mean the governments of the world? How would you
classify those governements? Liberal or Conservative? Hint: Appeasement
is not conservatiove lexicon.

the U.S. was very racist and eltist back then.
But, yes, we shold have taken his advice and steamrolled on into
Russia.