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#1
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Where Can We Register Our Complaints About Loudening Existing CDs?
I have for the last week borrowed several dozen CDs from the local
library and am dismayed to find that even many 1980s era first-gen CDs of musicians from WW2 up to that point have had some loudness processing(compression, remastering, remixing) done to them. The only way to hear this stuff properly is if you still have the same albums on vinyl! It's very simple to see: For Example - Rip your favorite classic rock artist - Yes, Bob Seger, etc, as a WAV or MP3, and load that rip into Audacity or ProTools. If you see squared off sections of that waveform(where the loudest portions of the song seem to 'flatten out', that means something has been done to it. Who do we write to, the record labels, the owners/copyright holders of the works? |
#2
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Where Can We Register Our Complaints About Loudening Existing CDs?
"ChrisCoaster" wrote in message ... I have for the last week borrowed several dozen CDs from the local library and am dismayed to find that even many 1980s era first-gen CDs of musicians from WW2 up to that point have had some loudness processing(compression, remastering, remixing) done to them. Welcome to the 20th century :-) The only way to hear this stuff properly is if you still have the same albums on vinyl! Nope, since ALL vinyl discs had some processing, intentional and otherwise, (compression, bass roll off, distortion, rumble, wow, flutter, FR errors etc) the only way to hear what it sounds like on the original master tape is to listen to the original master tape. Of course that CAN be transferred to CD now WITHOUT any further change (not often is of course) but it NEVER could be with vinyl. (and still can't) Trevor. |
#3
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Where Can We Register Our Complaints About Loudening Existing CDs?
On Feb 15, 10:59*pm, "Trevor" wrote:
"ChrisCoaster" wrote in message ... I have for the last week borrowed several dozen CDs from the local library and am dismayed to find that even many 1980s era first-gen CDs of musicians from WW2 up to that point have had some loudness processing(compression, remastering, remixing) done to them. Welcome to the 20th century :-) The only way to hear this stuff properly is if you still have the same albums on vinyl! Nope, since ALL vinyl discs had some processing, intentional and otherwise, (compression, bass roll off, distortion, rumble, wow, flutter, FR errors etc) the only way to hear what it sounds like on the original master tape is to listen to the original master tape. Of course that CAN be transferred to CD now WITHOUT any further change (not often is of course) but it NEVER could be with vinyl. (and still can't) Trevor. __________________ The original vinyl(and cassette of that time) are a lot CLOSER - not exact - but closer - to what the studio master sounded like. That's what should be aimed for. As I've said repeatedly, digital leveled the playing field with none of the hiss issues of tape, the noise/low freq. issues of LPs, and a dynamic range equal to cassette's and LP's COMBINED. And what do these idiots- Excyoooz me - "ENGINEERS" do? JAM THE ENTIRE DYNAMIC RANGE OF "SOMEONE SAVED MY LIFE TONIGHT"(Sir Elton John) INTO A TWO DECIBEL RANGE AT THE TOP OF THE DIGITAL VU SCALE!! Utter stupidity. Utter.. -CC |
#4
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Where Can We Register Our Complaints About Loudening Existing CDs?
"ChrisCoaster" wrote in message ... The original vinyl(and cassette of that time) are a lot CLOSER - not exact - but closer - to what the studio master sounded like. Can be compared to badly mastered CD's, but can NEVER match as close as is possible with a properly mastered CD. NO need to confuse technical issues with human error, that takes place regardless. That's what should be aimed for. As I've said repeatedly, digital leveled the playing field with none of the hiss issues of tape, the noise/low freq. issues of LPs, and a dynamic range equal to cassette's and LP's COMBINED. And what do these idiots- Excyoooz me - "ENGINEERS" do? JAM THE ENTIRE DYNAMIC RANGE OF "SOMEONE SAVED MY LIFE TONIGHT"(Sir Elton John) INTO A TWO DECIBEL RANGE AT THE TOP OF THE DIGITAL VU SCALE!! Utter stupidity. No argument, but most here realised that was happening two decades ago! And vinyl was not the answer to anything. Trevor. |
#5
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Where Can We Register Our Complaints About Loudening Existing CDs?
ChrisCoaster wrote:
On Feb 15, 10:59 pm, "Trevor" wrote: "ChrisCoaster" wrote in message ... I have for the last week borrowed several dozen CDs from the local library and am dismayed to find that even many 1980s era first-gen CDs of musicians from WW2 up to that point have had some loudness processing(compression, remastering, remixing) done to them. Welcome to the 20th century :-) The only way to hear this stuff properly is if you still have the same albums on vinyl! Nope, since ALL vinyl discs had some processing, intentional and otherwise, (compression, bass roll off, distortion, rumble, wow, flutter, FR errors etc) the only way to hear what it sounds like on the original master tape is to listen to the original master tape. Of course that CAN be transferred to CD now WITHOUT any further change (not often is of course) but it NEVER could be with vinyl. (and still can't) Trevor. __________________ The original vinyl(and cassette of that time) are a lot CLOSER - not exact - but closer - to what the studio master sounded like. By that statement shall I assume you have heard the master tapes? That's what should be aimed for. As I've said repeatedly, digital leveled the playing field with none of the hiss issues of tape, the noise/low freq. issues of LPs, and a dynamic range equal to cassette's and LP's COMBINED. Digital audio systems function in an analog realm, and regardless of the theoretical dydnamic range of the digital system, practical limitations of the analog realm hold dynamic range well below the theoretical calculation. And what do these idiots- Excyoooz me - "ENGINEERS" do? People have jobs. Jobs come with bosses. Pay comes with satisfying the bosses. For decades musicians, managers, and labels have wanted their songs to be loud on the radio to catch and help hold the attention of the listener(s). Radio station operators have wanted their station to be as loud as possible, to achieve better signal delivery within their area of coverage. The engineers job is to satisfy the requirements of their bosses/clients, and that's not you, in this case. So the place to take up the battle is at the labels, and with the artists and their management. That's who pays the engineers. Furthemore, some engineers can make things sound amazingly loud and startlingly good. Check out Cookie Marenco's work with Tony Furtado, for example. Loud as all get out, and gorgeous at the same time. JAM THE ENTIRE DYNAMIC RANGE OF "SOMEONE SAVED MY LIFE TONIGHT"(Sir Elton John) INTO A TWO DECIBEL RANGE AT THE TOP OF THE DIGITAL VU SCALE!! Utter stupidity. See above and stop blaming the engineers for doing the job specified by their bosses. Don't buy products that you find unsatisfactory. Return that which you have bought that falls short and demand a refund. Talk is cheap, while returned product is very expensive. -- shut up and play your guitar * http://hankalrich.com/ http://www.youtube.com/walkinaymusic http://www.sonicbids.com/HankandShaidri |
#6
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Where Can We Register Our Complaints About Loudening Existing CDs?
On Feb 16, 1:07*am, (hank alrich) wrote:
ChrisCoaster wrote: On Feb 15, 10:59 pm, "Trevor" wrote: "ChrisCoaster" wrote in message .... I have for the last week borrowed several dozen CDs from the local library and am dismayed to find that even many 1980s era first-gen CDs of musicians from WW2 up to that point have had some loudness processing(compression, remastering, remixing) done to them. Welcome to the 20th century :-) The only way to hear this stuff properly is if you still have the same albums on vinyl! Nope, since ALL vinyl discs had some processing, intentional and otherwise, (compression, bass roll off, distortion, rumble, wow, flutter, FR errors etc) the only way to hear what it sounds like on the original master tape is to listen to the original master tape. Of course that CAN be transferred to CD now WITHOUT any further change (not often is of course) but it NEVER could be with vinyl. (and still can't) Trevor. __________________ The original vinyl(and cassette of that time) are a lot CLOSER - not exact - but closer - to what the studio master sounded like. By that statement shall I assume you have heard the master tapes? That's what should be aimed for. *As I've said repeatedly, digital leveled the playing field with none of the hiss issues of tape, the noise/low freq. issues of LPs, and a dynamic range equal to cassette's and LP's COMBINED. Digital audio systems function in an analog realm, and regardless of the theoretical dydnamic range of the digital system, practical limitations of the analog realm hold dynamic range well below the theoretical calculation. And what do these idiots- Excyoooz me - "ENGINEERS" do? People have jobs. Jobs come with bosses. Pay comes with satisfying the bosses. For decades musicians, managers, and labels have wanted their songs to be loud on the radio to catch and help hold the attention of the listener(s). Radio station operators have wanted their station to be as loud as possible, to achieve better signal delivery within their area of coverage. The engineers job is to satisfy the requirements of their bosses/clients, and that's not you, in this case. So the place to take up the battle is at the labels, and with the artists and their management. That's who pays the engineers. Furthemore, some engineers can make things sound amazingly loud and startlingly good. Check out Cookie Marenco's work with Tony Furtado, for example. Loud as all get out, and gorgeous at the same time. JAM THE ENTIRE DYNAMIC RANGE OF "SOMEONE SAVED MY LIFE TONIGHT"(Sir Elton John) INTO A TWO DECIBEL RANGE AT THE TOP OF THE DIGITAL VU SCALE!! *Utter stupidity. See above and stop blaming the engineers for doing the job specified by their bosses. Don't buy products that you find unsatisfactory. Return that which you have bought that falls short and demand a refund. Talk is cheap, while returned product is very expensive. -- shut up and play your guitar *http://hankalrich.com/http://www.you...ankandShaidri- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted t _________________ Well stated. But ultimately, the CONSUMER is the boss. Like you said returns are not a good thing to a company. But we also have a voice. And that voice can go up the chain until the right ears/eyes have received it. But it is a complicated chain - which is the main topic of this thread: who to stick it in the craw of that squeezing *potentially* 90dB of dynamic range into 1-2 dB of sonic space IS NO LONGER ACCEPTABLE and IS HARMFUL TO BOTH OUR EARS AND PLAYBACK EQUIPMENT? That is the question. -CC ps: caps locks are mockery of LOUDNESS WAR not yelling! |
#7
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Where Can We Register Our Complaints About Loudening Existing CDs?
ChrisCoaster wrote:
Well stated. But ultimately, the CONSUMER is the boss. Like you said returns are not a good thing to a company. But we also have a voice. The problem is that for the most part, the consumer doesn't give a damn about sound quality. When I started, the consumer was listening to overdriven 45s with a cheap ceramic cartridge through an 8" full range speaker. Now they are listening to squashed MP3 files on their ipod through headphones they bought at the dollar store. Point out to them that they could get uncompressed versions of the music and they'll say it's too much trouble, and that they can get more songs on their ipod this way. And that voice can go up the chain until the right ears/eyes have received it. But it is a complicated chain - which is the main topic of this thread: who to stick it in the craw of that squeezing *potentially* 90dB of dynamic range into 1-2 dB of sonic space IS NO LONGER ACCEPTABLE and IS HARMFUL TO BOTH OUR EARS AND PLAYBACK EQUIPMENT? People who care about sound quality are very much a niche market. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#8
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Where Can We Register Our Complaints About Loudening Existing CDs?
"hank alrich" wrote in message ... Don't buy products that you find unsatisfactory. Return that which you have bought that falls short and demand a refund. Talk is cheap, while returned product is very expensive. Good luck trying to get a refund at any record store in Australia. Can you really do that in the USA? Have you actually done it? Trevor. |
#9
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Where Can We Register Our Complaints About Loudening ExistingCDs?
On 2/16/2012 7:24 PM, Trevor wrote:
Good luck trying to get a refund at any record store in Australia. Can you really do that in the USA? Have you actually done it? That's tough, just like returning software. But you can simply stop buying CDs. You probably don't need a trial listen to tell what you aren't going to like. When was the last time you bought a commercial CD of a big name artist that sounded good to your ears? Just say no. -- "Today's production equipment is IT based and cannot be operated without a passing knowledge of computing, although it seems that it can be operated without a passing knowledge of audio." - John Watkinson http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com - useful and interesting audio stuff |
#10
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Where Can We Register Our Complaints About Loudening Existing CDs?
"ChrisCoaster" wrote in message ... On Feb 15, 10:59 pm, "Trevor" wrote: The original vinyl(and cassette of that time) are a lot CLOSER - not exact - but closer - to what the studio master sounded like. That's what should be aimed for. As I've said repeatedly, digital leveled the playing field with none of the hiss issues of tape, the noise/low freq. issues of LPs, and a dynamic range equal to cassette's and LP's COMBINED. And what do these idiots- Excyoooz me - "ENGINEERS" do? Well you have the part about bad sounding media being an artistic/business/enginering issue and not any inherent problem with the basic technology. But did the majority of CDs sound worse than the corresponding LPs and cassettes? Horsefeathers. Reality is that sometimes the analog sounded better but mostly the digital sounded better. All generalizations are false, and that applies very well those generalizations that compare digital and analog media. In the early 1980s when CDs first came out, at least 90% or more of the reissues or new issues that came out were dramatically improved by being released from the surly bonds of analog media technology. The other 10% (or less) were screw-ups. One common problem was lack of access to the best possible master tape. One particularly common problem was use of a cutting master where a grand master should have been used. Of course you can't make CDs from master tapes that were lost, destroyed or written over. The analog media versions of my favorite artists whether pop, rock or classical were so generally bad in comparison that my Thorens turntable and Revox tape recorder were liquidated to buy more CDs. IME starting with the early 90s, the odds of getting a good digital transfer started dropping. My kids who were then teenagers were the victims. For example, while my early 80s digital transfers of whole albums by say Simon and Garfunkel were great, my kids were having "Best of" compendiums foisted off on them that were overcompressed crap. |
#11
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Where Can We Register Our Complaints About Loudening Existing CDs?
"Arny Krueger" wrote:
All generalizations are false, In general, anyway... (;^) -- ---Jeff |
#12
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Where Can We Register Our Complaints About Loudening Existing CDs?
Jeff Henig wrote:
"Arny Krueger" wrote: All generalizations are false, In general, anyway... (;^) And 87.3% of all statistics are simply made up on the spot. geoff |
#13
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Where Can We Register Our Complaints About Loudening Existing CDs?
On Feb 16, 9:00*am, "Arny Krueger" wrote:
"ChrisCoaster" wrote in message ... On Feb 15, 10:59 pm, "Trevor" wrote: The original vinyl(and cassette of that time) are a lot CLOSER - not exact - but closer - to what the studio master sounded like. *That's what should be aimed for. *As I've said repeatedly, digital leveled the playing field with none of the hiss issues of tape, the noise/low freq. issues of LPs, and a dynamic range equal to cassette's and LP's COMBINED. *And what do these idiots- Excyoooz me - "ENGINEERS" do? Well you have the part about bad sounding media being an artistic/business/enginering issue and not any inherent problem with the basic technology. But did the majority of CDs sound worse than the corresponding LPs and cassettes? Horsefeathers. Reality is that sometimes the analog sounded better but mostly the digital sounded better. All generalizations are false, and that applies very well those generalizations that compare digital and analog media. _____________________ I didn't intend to generalize, except with regards to most "Greatest Hits" and "Remastereds" I've heard - and ANALYZED via Pro Tools or Audacity. And when I found out that even some "original" CDs - of the original albums themselves, had the bloated and/or brickwalled waveform appearance to their tracks - I knew something was wrong. So I don't want this degenerating into a debate over CD vs LP(heaven knows there's enough heated threads about that debate out there already!!). I'm just trying to bang a pot, before its too late, that some really great works out there may never be heard in all their glory after enough decades have passed. And to me, an unaltered non-remastered "Bohemian Rhapsody"(Queen) or the aforementioned "Someone Saved My Life Tonight"(Sir Elton John) sound great no matter what sized speakers I play them on - because they were engineered/mastered properly! As an aside, I'm hearing a lot of people saying how much more details they can hear on the 2009 Beatles Boxed Sets, particularly on the Stereo version. Hmmm. I wonder why! I'll pass - my 1980s era releases are just fine. -CC |
#14
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Where Can We Register Our Complaints About Loudening Existing CDs?
"Trevor" wrote in message
... "ChrisCoaster" wrote in message ... I have for the last week borrowed several dozen CDs from the local library and am dismayed to find that even many 1980s era first-gen CDs of musicians from WW2 up to that point have had some loudness processing(compression, remastering, remixing) done to them. Welcome to the 20th century :-) The only way to hear this stuff properly is if you still have the same albums on vinyl! Nope, since ALL vinyl discs had some processing, intentional and otherwise, (compression, bass roll off, distortion, rumble, wow, flutter, FR errors etc) the only way to hear what it sounds like on the original master tape is to listen to the original master tape. Of course that CAN be transferred to CD now WITHOUT any further change (not often is of course) but it NEVER could be with vinyl. (and still can't) Trevor. I don't think that's right. Or, at least IMO, it is exaggerated. In my second studio engineering job in 1966 I spent my first year mostly in the laquer channel, as we called it then. For the first few months using a Scully lathe, a Neumann monaural cutting head, driven by a custom amplifier (tubes), fed from a chain with a modified Ampex 300 deck, a Fairchild 660 limiter, and a Conax high frequency limiter. Later, we switched to a Westrex stereo cutting head, driven by a Westrex amplifier, Firchild 670, and dual Conax. We also had a range of patchable EQ, mostly Pultec and Cinema Engineering. We had one approach to mastering if we were cutting a master for a 45 rpm single for airplay, another for the same song for the release version, and a completely different approach for cutting a reference acetate for the producer to take home for evaluation of the mix. For the latter we used practically no limiting, minimal EQ or none. Getting level on the disk was not an issue, just the opposite of what we did for airplay (DJ Pressings), where noise and the restricted frequency response of AM radio was an issue. The reference acetates didn't have to have a lot of level to overcome noise, because the reference disc was only expected to be played a few times. Those discs sounded great. Much closer to the master tape than you'd probably believe. System errors of wow, flutter, and rumble were pretty much insignificant on well maintained equipment, except on the lowest levels of classical music. Steve King |
#15
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Where Can We Register Our Complaints About Loudening Existing CDs?
Steve King wrote:
reference disc was only expected to be played a few times. Those discs sounded great. Much closer to the master tape than you'd probably believe. But high and low frequencies hadn't been invented back thern .... geoff |
#16
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Where Can We Register Our Complaints About Loudening Existing CDs?
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#17
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Where Can We Register Our Complaints About Loudening Existing CDs?
On Feb 16, 5:25*am, RD Jones wrote:
http://www.turnmeup.org _______________ Anyone on R.A.P., and maybe on R.A.T, should know that organization and their work by now. All they need is more awareness and recognition of their good work. But thanks for the reminder. -CC |
#18
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Where Can We Register Our Complaints About Loudening ExistingCDs?
On 2/15/2012 10:19 PM, ChrisCoaster wrote:
Who do we write to, the record labels, the owners/copyright holders of the works? You don't write to anyone. You stop buying records. Oh, wait a minute . . . you don't buy records, you borrow them from the library. So I guess there's nothing you can do. Well, maybe you can change the music you listen to, or the way you listen to music. Go to some concerts, but not concerts of the artists producing "too loud" CDs, go to shows by your local artists playing in small venues without huge sound systems. Then you can talk to your friends about some of the music you're hearing that they're missing out on. -- "Today's production equipment is IT based and cannot be operated without a passing knowledge of computing, although it seems that it can be operated without a passing knowledge of audio." - John Watkinson http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com - useful and interesting audio stuff |
#19
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Where Can We Register Our Complaints About Loudening Existing CDs?
On Feb 16, 8:01*am, Mike Rivers wrote:
On 2/15/2012 10:19 PM, ChrisCoaster wrote: Who do we write to, the record labels, the owners/copyright holders of the works? You don't write to anyone. You stop buying records. Oh, wait a minute . . . you don't buy records, you borrow them from the library. So I guess there's nothing you can do. Well, maybe you can change the music you listen to, or the way you listen to music. Go to some concerts, but not concerts of the artists producing "too loud" CDs, go to shows by your local artists playing in small venues without huge sound systems. Then you can talk to your friends about some of the music you're hearing that they're missing out on. -- "Today's production equipment is IT based and cannot be operated without a passing knowledge of computing, although it seems that it can be operated without a passing knowledge of audio." - John Watkinson http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com- useful and interesting audio stuff __________________ There's nothing wrong with the fact that I am fan of a lot of so- called mainstream stuff. A lot of *older* mainstream stuff! (Boston, Beatles, Elton John, Jimi Hendrix, Journey, Rush, Run DMC, Diana Ross, Beethoven, Liszt) ok not all of that is mainstream, but I want to hear it again, as close to first pressing as possible! Those CDs are still out there - mainly in peoples homes, or at the library or the local Goodwill. I have been in plenty of venues where live music is offered, and have heard from reasonably good to pretty bad. On the bad end, it's just too LOUD(outdoors at Veterans Park, so to speak). On the good end I can hear the lyrics above the music(think coffee shop acoustic). I know I can't get that on vinyl, CD or MP3. I just want the best those formats can offer. I've always said if you feed a format right it can sound great. -CC |
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