Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
Ed Presson[_2_] Ed Presson[_2_] is offline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 33
Default SACD recommendation

My Sony SCD-C2000ES SACD changer has decided to read only SACDs, and balks
on CDs (skips, stops dead, or won't read at all). It looks like I can ship
it off to Sony for repair for a minimum fee of $119 (goes up if there is
abuse or moisture damage), or I can start looking for a replacement.

The Oppo BDP-95 seems like a well-built option-it's gotten good reviews.
Does anyone have experience using the BDP-95 as a CD/SACD player in a
standard stereo system? Is the user-interface clumsy without a video
screen? Are there more attractive options?

I'd appreciate your comments and advice.

Ed Presson



  #2   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
Audio Empire Audio Empire is offline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,193
Default SACD recommendation

On Fri, 16 Dec 2011 09:07:23 -0800, Ed Presson wrote
(in article ):

My Sony SCD-C2000ES SACD changer has decided to read only SACDs, and balks
on CDs (skips, stops dead, or won't read at all). It looks like I can ship
it off to Sony for repair for a minimum fee of $119 (goes up if there is
abuse or moisture damage), or I can start looking for a replacement.

The Oppo BDP-95 seems like a well-built option-it's gotten good reviews.
Does anyone have experience using the BDP-95 as a CD/SACD player in a
standard stereo system? Is the user-interface clumsy without a video
screen? Are there more attractive options?

I'd appreciate your comments and advice.

Ed Presson




I don't know if this is important to you or not, Ed, but for what it's worth,
the ESS "SabreDAC" (the best sounding IC-based DAC on the market, BTW) used
in the BDP-95 doesn't actually "decode" SACD. What it does is take SACD data
in from the disc transport and CONVERT it to Linear Pulse Code Modulation
(PCM). I do not know what the bit rate of the converted PCM is but if it's
16-bit, 44.1 KHz as some writers have suggested, then there's no sense in
playing the SACD layer at all, you might as well just listen to the CD layer
on all of your SACDs and by extension, there's no reason to buy new SACDs
since the player converts the SACD data into regular CD data anyway.

Your Sony has a real single-bit DSD (SACD) processor in it and it actually
processes the SACD data directly and correctly, rather than down-converting
it the way some players do. In fact, Sony players actually convert regular
CDs to DSD (SACD) data before converting them to audio - probably a better
solution. Now, I don't know if all non-Sony SACD players such as those from
Marantz do what the OPPO/SabreDAC combo do, but if real SACD playback is your
goal, then be careful what you buy.
  #3   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
Andrew Haley Andrew Haley is offline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 155
Default SACD recommendation

Audio Empire wrote:
I don't know if this is important to you or not, Ed, but for what
it's worth, the ESS "SabreDAC" (the best sounding IC-based DAC on
the market, BTW) used in the BDP-95 doesn't actually "decode"
SACD. What it does is take SACD data in from the disc transport and
CONVERT it to Linear Pulse Code Modulation (PCM).


Looking at http://www.esstech.com/PDF/sabrewp.pdf, they feed the DSD
stream into their digital filter, which operates at a very high
frequency. I doubt that there is any better way to do it: you have to
get rid of the very high HF noise levels present in DSD somehow.

I do not know what the bit rate of the converted PCM is but if it's
16-bit, 44.1 KHz as some writers have suggested,


Any why would they do that? It'd easily be detectable in
measurements, if not by ear.

then there's no sense in playing the SACD layer at all, you might as
well just listen to the CD layer on all of your SACDs and by
extension, there's no reason to buy new SACDs since the player
converts the SACD data into regular CD data anyway.


But the real advantage of SACD is multi-channel recordings, not just
stereo. The difference is readily audible, even in blind tests.

Your Sony has a real single-bit DSD (SACD) processor in it and it
actually processes the SACD data directly and correctly, rather than
down-converting it the way some players do. In fact, Sony players
actually convert regular CDs to DSD (SACD) data before converting
them to audio - probably a better solution.


That's what every single-bit sigma-delta converter does. Including
the $1.50 ones in MP3 players.

Andrew.

  #4   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
Edmund[_2_] Edmund[_2_] is offline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 80
Default SACD recommendation

On Fri, 16 Dec 2011 17:07:23 +0000, Ed Presson wrote:

My Sony SCD-C2000ES SACD changer has decided to read only SACDs, and
balks on CDs (skips, stops dead, or won't read at all). It looks like I
can ship it off to Sony for repair for a minimum fee of $119 (goes up if
there is abuse or moisture damage), or I can start looking for a
replacement.


That is Phony all right, I not even buy a battery if I see a Phony logo
on it, I advise everybody to do the same and never ever buy anything from
these crooks again.

The Oppo BDP-95 seems like a well-built option-it's gotten good reviews.
Does anyone have experience using the BDP-95 as a CD/SACD player in a
standard stereo system?


Yes, sounds great and decent file support for dvd-A, flac and I asked
Oppo for new firmware for SACD file support from Hard Drive.
If only more people where asking for that I am sure they will
implement that.


Is the user-interface clumsy without a video screen?


Yes. :-)


Are there more attractive options?


Hardly

I'd appreciate your comments and advice.

Ed Presson


Edmund

  #5   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
Edmund[_2_] Edmund[_2_] is offline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 80
Default SACD recommendation

On Sat, 17 Dec 2011 03:30:51 +0000, Audio Empire wrote:

On Fri, 16 Dec 2011 09:07:23 -0800, Ed Presson wrote (in article
):

My Sony SCD-C2000ES SACD changer has decided to read only SACDs, and
balks on CDs (skips, stops dead, or won't read at all). It looks like
I can ship it off to Sony for repair for a minimum fee of $119 (goes up
if there is abuse or moisture damage), or I can start looking for a
replacement.

The Oppo BDP-95 seems like a well-built option-it's gotten good
reviews. Does anyone have experience using the BDP-95 as a CD/SACD
player in a standard stereo system? Is the user-interface clumsy
without a video screen? Are there more attractive options?

I'd appreciate your comments and advice.

Ed Presson




I don't know if this is important to you or not, Ed, but for what it's
worth, the ESS "SabreDAC" (the best sounding IC-based DAC on the market,
BTW) used in the BDP-95 doesn't actually "decode" SACD. What it does is
take SACD data in from the disc transport and CONVERT it to Linear Pulse
Code Modulation (PCM).


According to the manual that is only an option, one can select to
convert it or play the native DSD stream.

I do not know what the bit rate of the converted
PCM is but if it's 16-bit, 44.1 KHz as some writers have suggested,


Could that maybe be Phony writers who suggested that?


then
there's no sense in playing the SACD layer at all, you might as well
just listen to the CD layer on all of your SACDs and by extension,
there's no reason to buy new SACDs since the player converts the SACD
data into regular CD data anyway.


The specs from the BDP95 in CD format and SACD format differ from
20kHz in CD format and 50 kHz in SACD format.
How do they do that?

Your Sony has a real single-bit DSD (SACD) processor in it and it
actually processes the SACD data directly and correctly, rather than
down-converting it the way some players do. In fact, Sony players
actually convert regular CDs to DSD (SACD) data before converting them
to audio - probably a better solution. Now, I don't know if all
non-Sony SACD players such as those from Marantz do what the
OPPO/SabreDAC combo do, but if real SACD playback is your goal, then be
careful what you buy.


And make sure it isn't phony again, because it will break down shortly
after the warranty expires

Edmund


  #6   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
Ed Presson[_2_] Ed Presson[_2_] is offline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 33
Default SACD recommendation

[ Some reformatting was done on this message in order to
ensure proper quoting. Please use the standard quoting
technique consistently. -- dsr ]


"Edmund" wrote in message ...

On Sat, 17 Dec 2011 03:30:51 +0000, Audio Empire wrote:

On Fri, 16 Dec 2011 09:07:23 -0800, Ed Presson wrote (in article
):

My Sony SCD-C2000ES SACD changer has decided to read only SACDs, and
balks on CDs (skips, stops dead, or won't read at all). It looks like
I can ship it off to Sony for repair for a minimum fee of $119 (goes up
if there is abuse or moisture damage), or I can start looking for a
replacement.

The Oppo BDP-95 seems like a well-built option-it's gotten good
reviews. Does anyone have experience using the BDP-95 as a CD/SACD
player in a standard stereo system? Is the user-interface clumsy
without a video screen? Are there more attractive options?

I'd appreciate your comments and advice.

Ed Presson




I don't know if this is important to you or not, Ed, but for what it's
worth, the ESS "SabreDAC" (the best sounding IC-based DAC on the market,
BTW) used in the BDP-95 doesn't actually "decode" SACD. What it does is
take SACD data in from the disc transport and CONVERT it to Linear Pulse
Code Modulation (PCM).


According to the manual that is only an option, one can select to
convert it or play the native DSD stream.

I do not know what the bit rate of the converted
PCM is but if it's 16-bit, 44.1 KHz as some writers have suggested,


Could that maybe be Phony writers who suggested that?


then
there's no sense in playing the SACD layer at all, you might as well
just listen to the CD layer on all of your SACDs and by extension,
there's no reason to buy new SACDs since the player converts the SACD
data into regular CD data anyway.


The specs from the BDP95 in CD format and SACD format differ from
20kHz in CD format and 50 kHz in SACD format.
How do they do that?

Your Sony has a real single-bit DSD (SACD) processor in it and it
actually processes the SACD data directly and correctly, rather than
down-converting it the way some players do. In fact, Sony players
actually convert regular CDs to DSD (SACD) data before converting them
to audio - probably a better solution. Now, I don't know if all
non-Sony SACD players such as those from Marantz do what the
OPPO/SabreDAC combo do, but if real SACD playback is your goal, then be
careful what you buy.


And make sure it isn't phony again, because it will break down shortly
after the warranty expires

Edmund

________________________________

Oppo replied to a query from me with the following information:

"SACD is either sent direct as DSD or as a PCM conversion (24-bit/88.2KHz)
depending on the SACD setting under Audio Format Setup. If SACD is set to
DSD, then the player will not do any decoding and will simply convert DSD
into analog.

If SACD is set to PCM, then the player will convert DSD into 24-bit/88.2KHz
PCM."

The Oppo BDP-95 Users Manual also suggests (about the SACD to PCM option):
"You may also want to select this option if you prefer the sound quality of
the DSD-to-PCM conversion."

I don't know a lot about the conversion techniques, but I would have thought
that the straight DSD to analog would have provided the most accurate analog
signal. What advantage might the DSD-to-PCM conversion provide this
listener?

I have not yet done any A/B comparisons. I doubt that I'd hear the
differences, frankly, with my aging ears.

I would be curious about the possible differences between the two conversion
approaches, if anyone could provide an explanation.

Thanks,

Ed

I

Ed Presson



  #7   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
Audio Empire Audio Empire is offline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,193
Default SACD recommendation

On Wed, 21 Dec 2011 10:09:50 -0800, Ed Presson wrote
(in article ):

Oppo replied to a query from me with the following information:

"SACD is either sent direct as DSD or as a PCM conversion
(24-bit/88.2KHz) depending on the SACD setting under Audio Format
Setup. If SACD is set to DSD, then the player will not do any
decoding and will simply convert DSD into analog.


But doesn't it do direct SACD decoding ONLY through HDMI? I seem to
recall something like that in the manual, but it isn't clear.

If SACD is set to PCM, then the player will convert DSD into
24-bit/88.2KHz PCM."

The Oppo BDP-95 Users Manual also suggests (about the SACD to PCM
option): "You may also want to select this option if you prefer the
sound quality of the DSD-to-PCM conversion."

I don't know a lot about the conversion techniques, but I would have
thought that the straight DSD to analog would have provided the
most accurate analog signal. What advantage might the DSD-to-PCM
conversion provide this listener?


None. It's another step, though. I have software that converts my DSD
(SACD format) recordings into LPCM for distribution to my clients.
Direct comparison shows the PCM to sound a little rougher on top and
little lighter in the bottom. If you didn't do a direct comparison,
you wouldn't even notice it.

I have not yet done any A/B comparisons. I doubt that I'd hear
the differences, frankly, with my aging ears.


My ears are pretty old as well. You can hear it unless your hearing
has been damaged somehow.
  #8   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
Edmund[_2_] Edmund[_2_] is offline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 80
Default SACD recommendation

On Wed, 21 Dec 2011 18:09:50 +0000, Ed Presson wrote:

[quoted text deleted -- deb]

Oppo replied to a query from me with the following information:

"SACD is either sent direct as DSD or as a PCM conversion
(24-bit/88.2KHz) depending on the SACD setting under Audio Format Setup.
If SACD is set to DSD, then the player will not do any decoding and will
simply convert DSD into analog.

If SACD is set to PCM, then the player will convert DSD into
24-bit/88.2KHz PCM."

The Oppo BDP-95 Users Manual also suggests (about the SACD to PCM
option): "You may also want to select this option if you prefer the
sound quality of the DSD-to-PCM conversion."

I don't know a lot about the conversion techniques, but I would have
thought that the straight DSD to analog would have provided the most
accurate analog signal. What advantage might the DSD-to-PCM conversion
provide this listener?


Not much I can think of. But I have to admit I did not ( Yet! ) looked into
detail about that strange noise shaping stuff in SACD, which I not fully
understand.
As far as my info goes, it is the impulse that is better with SACD vs PCM
but unfortunately, there are not many recordings available that are
truly HD and even less HD recordings that are DSD recorded.
Of course it is of no value to convert a PCM recording to SACD format,
I don't expect anything better than the original recording. :-)

In a few months my new speakers arrive and I will do a lot of listening
and comparing. What I like to see is a "simple" test SACD with complex
wave forms, I don't know how one can accurately measure such signals but
I am very interested in the analog output of SACD players using such signals.
I am sure it will help a lot in the discussion which IS actually better
rather then one like the sound of a certain brand/model.
Since there is some progress in Ripping and burning SACD's I guess
it wont take that long before someone makes an SACD with such signals.
To come back to your question, I don't know any good reason why one would
prefer an additional conversion to PCM unless the DSD too analog filter is
very bad.


I have not yet done any A/B comparisons. I doubt that I'd hear the
differences, frankly, with my aging ears.

I would be curious about the possible differences between the two
conversion approaches, if anyone could provide an explanation.


IMHO there is no way an additional conversion can make a recording sound
better. With better I mean realistic.

BTW
If you do own an Oppo, please ask Oppo for DSDIFF support so that we can play
DSD formats from Hard Drive.

Edmund
  #9   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
Edmund[_2_] Edmund[_2_] is offline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 80
Default SACD recommendation

On Thu, 22 Dec 2011 03:00:45 +0000, Audio Empire wrote:

On Wed, 21 Dec 2011 10:09:50 -0800, Ed Presson wrote (in article
):

Oppo replied to a query from me with the following information:

"SACD is either sent direct as DSD or as a PCM conversion
(24-bit/88.2KHz) depending on the SACD setting under Audio Format
Setup. If SACD is set to DSD, then the player will not do any decoding
and will simply convert DSD into analog.


But doesn't it do direct SACD decoding ONLY through HDMI?


No also to the cinch connection.

I seem to
recall something like that in the manual, but it isn't clear.


The manual isn't clear about that, nor there web site that is why
I specifically asked Oppo about this.
The DAC they use is also sold elswhere as part of a DAC-kit which accepts
and correctly decode both SACD and PCM.

BTW, decoding to analog over HDMI, is there an analog signal in HDMI???

If SACD is set to PCM, then the player will convert DSD into
24-bit/88.2KHz PCM."

The Oppo BDP-95 Users Manual also suggests (about the SACD to PCM
option): "You may also want to select this option if you prefer the
sound quality of the DSD-to-PCM conversion."

I don't know a lot about the conversion techniques, but I would have
thought that the straight DSD to analog would have provided the most
accurate analog signal. What advantage might the DSD-to-PCM conversion
provide this listener?


None. It's another step, though. I have software that converts my DSD
(SACD format) recordings into LPCM for distribution to my clients.
Direct comparison shows the PCM to sound a little rougher on top and
little lighter in the bottom. If you didn't do a direct comparison, you
wouldn't even notice it.


I believe you but that is subjective, is there any way you can construct
and play a complex signal and measure the analog output in both DVD-A 192kHz
and SACD format?
I very much like to see such an output and see how PCM and DSD behave in a
real word.

I have not yet done any A/B comparisons. I doubt that I'd hear the
differences, frankly, with my aging ears.


My ears are pretty old as well. You can hear it unless your hearing has
been damaged somehow.


Edmund

  #10   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
Audio Empire Audio Empire is offline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,193
Default SACD recommendation

On Thu, 22 Dec 2011 07:18:12 -0800, Edmund wrote
(in article ):

On Thu, 22 Dec 2011 03:00:45 +0000, Audio Empire wrote:

On Wed, 21 Dec 2011 10:09:50 -0800, Ed Presson wrote (in article
):


[quoted text deleted -- deb]

I don't know a lot about the conversion techniques, but I would have
thought that the straight DSD to analog would have provided the most
accurate analog signal. What advantage might the DSD-to-PCM conversion
provide this listener?


None. It's another step, though. I have software that converts my DSD
(SACD format) recordings into LPCM for distribution to my clients.
Direct comparison shows the PCM to sound a little rougher on top and
little lighter in the bottom. If you didn't do a direct comparison, you
wouldn't even notice it.


I believe you but that is subjective, is there any way you can construct
and play a complex signal and measure the analog output in both DVD-A 192kHz
and SACD format?
I very much like to see such an output and see how PCM and DSD behave in a
real word.


You could probably measure the top-end roughness as increased
distortion - assuming that you had a distortion analyzer with
sufficient resolution. Dunno about the bass. Like you said, that's
pretty subjective.


  #11   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
Ed Presson[_2_] Ed Presson[_2_] is offline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 33
Default SACD recommendation

Thanks for your comments and explanations.

I've been listening to the Oppo BDP-95 quite a bit since I have a seven-day
full return policy from the dealer-I want to explore all the aspects of the
unit. I hooked to an old TV to double check all the audio settings. Most
of the defaults were already set to my preferences, only the HDCD converter
was set to "off."

I cannot tell much difference between the Oppo and the Sony player (which
now only plays SACDs), except for the fundamentals of the deepest bass which
are firmer and more "located in the soundstage" than with the Sony.

The dealer suggested that I not make any final audiophile judgments until
the unit is "broken in." I'm a bit dubious about the need to "break in" a
player, but It is getting a lot of use since I'm home this week and my
stereo is set up in my work space where I spend most of my time.

Thanks again,

Ed Presson

  #12   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
Audio Empire Audio Empire is offline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,193
Default SACD recommendation

On Thu, 22 Dec 2011 17:31:21 -0800, Ed Presson wrote
(in article ):

Thanks for your comments and explanations.

I've been listening to the Oppo BDP-95 quite a bit since I have a seven-day
full return policy from the dealer-I want to explore all the aspects of the
unit. I hooked to an old TV to double check all the audio settings. Most
of the defaults were already set to my preferences, only the HDCD converter
was set to "off."

I cannot tell much difference between the Oppo and the Sony player (which
now only plays SACDs), except for the fundamentals of the deepest bass which
are firmer and more "located in the soundstage" than with the Sony.

The dealer suggested that I not make any final audiophile judgments until
the unit is "broken in." I'm a bit dubious about the need to "break in" a
player, but It is getting a lot of use since I'm home this week and my
stereo is set up in my work space where I spend most of my time.

Thanks again,

Ed Presson


The idea of "breaking-in" electronic components such as CD players,
amplifiers, preamps, etc. is pure nonsense. Even more nonsensical is the
notion of breaking-in cables. These are audiophile mythology of the highest
order.

Now it is possible that some components might actually require break-in: SOME
speakers, and SOME phonograph cartridges MIGHT benefit from being run-in to
make suspensions around speakers and attached to cantilevers of cartridges
attain their required amount of suppleness, but even that is necessary only
on a model by model basis. IOW, not all cartridges need to be "broken-in" nor
all speakers.
  #13   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
Jack[_10_] Jack[_10_] is offline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1
Default SACD recommendation

On Dec 16, 12:07=A0pm, "Ed Presson" wrote:
My Sony SCD-C2000ES SACD changer has decided to read only SACDs, and balk=

s
on CDs (skips, stops dead, or won't read at all). =A0It looks like I can =

ship
it off to Sony for repair for a minimum fee of $119 (goes up if there is
abuse or moisture damage), or I can start looking for a replacement.

The Oppo BDP-95 seems like a well-built option-it's gotten good reviews.
Does anyone have experience using the BDP-95 as a CD/SACD player in a
standard stereo system? =A0Is the user-interface clumsy without a video
screen? =A0Are there more attractive options?

I'd appreciate your comments and advice.

Ed Presson


I have an Oppo BDP83SE, it functions splendidly as a music CD player
and as a photo CD ROM reader and plays DVDs splendidly upscaling them
To HD TV.
Reply
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules

Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
SACD Player Recommendation west Audio Opinions 355 March 27th 07 08:06 AM
SACD player recommendation insoc High End Audio 3 March 26th 06 04:38 PM
SACD Player Recommendation minor9th High End Audio 10 February 7th 06 12:42 AM
Recommendation for SACD player Rich Andrews Audio Opinions 43 July 30th 03 01:10 AM
Recommendation for SACD player Rich Andrews Tech 24 July 24th 03 08:05 AM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 07:38 PM.

Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 AudioBanter.com.
The comments are property of their posters.
 

About Us

"It's about Audio and hi-fi"