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Paul Dorman Paul Dorman is offline
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Default Dachman Audio U87 Clone Kit

What do you folks think about this?

https://dachmanaudio.com/da-87i-vint...er-microphone/

It comes in both kit form, and fully assembled.

I'd certainly love to save thousands!


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geoff geoff is offline
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On 14/12/2020 6:15 pm, Paul Dorman wrote:
What do you folks think about this?

https://dachmanaudio.com/da-87i-vint...er-microphone/

It comes in both kit form, and fully assembled.

I'd certainly love to save thousands!



I wonder what the actual origins of the capsules are.

geoff
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Paul Dorman Paul Dorman is offline
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On 12/13/2020 11:06 PM, geoff wrote:
On 14/12/2020 6:15 pm, Paul Dorman wrote:
What do you folks think about this?

https://dachmanaudio.com/da-87i-vint...er-microphone/

It comes in both kit form, and fully assembled.

I'd certainly love to save thousands!



I wonder what the actual origins of the capsules are.


Dunno, but I'd like to see some blind tests with
a real U87, and see if people can tell the difference!



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Scott Dorsey Scott Dorsey is offline
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In article ,
Paul Dorman wrote:
What do you folks think about this?

https://dachmanaudio.com/da-87i-vint...er-microphone/

It comes in both kit form, and fully assembled.

I'd certainly love to save thousands!


Everyone and his brother makes a U87 clone. Some are better than others.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
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Roy W. Rising Roy W. Rising is offline
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Default Dachman Audio U87 Clone Kit

On Monday, December 14, 2020 at 6:37:25 AM UTC-8, Scott Dorsey wrote:
In article ,
Paul Dorman wrote:
What do you folks think about this?

https://dachmanaudio.com/da-87i-vint...er-microphone/

It comes in both kit form, and fully assembled.

I'd certainly love to save thousands!

Everyone and his brother makes a U87 clone. Some are better than others.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."


If everything else in the kit is true to the original, get a Neumann K87 capsule for less than $1K and put the Dachman capsule in inventory. Then do the blindfold test.

~ Roy W. Rising "If you notice the *sound*, it's wrong!"


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Mike Rivers[_2_] Mike Rivers[_2_] is offline
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On 12/14/2020 3:13 AM, Paul Dorman wrote:

Â*Â* \I'd like to see some blind tests with
a real U87, and see if people can tell the difference!


That's what they all ask - does it sound like the real thing? Does your
U87 sound like my U87? Probably not exactly.

The important thing is whether it sounds good to you on your projects.
There was a time when there were a few standard studio mics that clients
expected you to have. I bought two, and still have them and use them.
But I have a couple of other mics that "sound like" U87s that don't
sound like either of my U87s, but they're useful in most places where
I'd use a U87 and they're nothing to be ashamed of.

I'm not familiar with this maker and I have no idea where his parts come
from. I know a little more about Mic Parts they're very open about
their designs and sources. If you're looking to save some money buy
building a mic from a kit, check them out

https://microphone-parts.com/


--
For a good time, call http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com
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Paul Dorman Paul Dorman is offline
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Default Dachman Audio U87 Clone Kit

On 12/14/2020 7:37 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
In article ,
Paul Dorman wrote:
What do you folks think about this?

https://dachmanaudio.com/da-87i-vint...er-microphone/

It comes in both kit form, and fully assembled.

I'd certainly love to save thousands!


Everyone and his brother makes a U87 clone. Some are better than others.


Can you recommend a U87 clone?

Either in kit form, or fully assembled?
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Scott Dorsey Scott Dorsey is offline
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Roy W. Rising wrote:
On Monday, December 14, 2020 at 6:37:25 AM UTC-8, Scott Dorsey wrote:
In article ,
Paul Dorman wrote:
What do you folks think about this?

https://dachmanaudio.com/da-87i-vint...er-microphone/

It comes in both kit form, and fully assembled.

I'd certainly love to save thousands!

Everyone and his brother makes a U87 clone. Some are better than others.


If everything else in the kit is true to the original, get a Neumann K87 capsule for less than $1K and put the Dachman capsule in inventory. Then do the blindfold test.


Unfortunately there are two critical things that cannot be true to the
original.

First is the shape of the grille, which actually makes quite a difference in
the sound. You can copy the material, but you can't copy the shape because it
is trademarked and Neumann is very aggressive about legal action. So all the
clones have slightly different grille shapes. The degree to which this changes
the sound is something that nobody has systematically tested.

The second is the diaphragm tensioning... the method Neumann uses today is
a secret. The method all the people copying Neumann capsules use is one
that Neumann abandoned some time in the sixties... and it can work well
only if very skilled people are doing the work very carefully. The KM53
was finally discontinued when the woman who could hand-tension those
capsules retired and they couldn't do it properly anymore. Today, Neumann
uses automated tensioning methods which among other things means a
consistently good null in figure-8 mode. Nobody outside Neumann has seen
it in operation and it has not yet been copied. (Most of the other big
companies also use automated systems but the Neumann method, whatever it is,
is clearly different than the ones Shure, A-T, and AKG are using.)

It's easy to make U87-style microphones, but it's hard to make them well
and I am not sure it's possible to make them exactly like Neumann.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
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Ty Ford[_2_] Ty Ford[_2_] is offline
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Default Dachman Audio U87 Clone Kit

Per Mike's and Scott's comments, I get really tired of seeing knock offs.

"Whoo Hooo! Get a Neumann clone for a fraction of the price!!!!!!"

Stick with your SM58 until you can afford a real one. Then hope you actually know how to use it.

I recall a conversation with a radio production guy many years ago who had a U 87 i. "Horrible on acoustic guitar", he said.

I asked where he put the mic. "Right in front of the sound hole, OF COURSE! It was waay boomy. I don't know why people think they're so great."

::sigh::

Regards,

Ty Ford
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On Mon, 21 Dec 2020 05:51:01 -0800 (PST), Ty Ford
wrote:

Per Mike's and Scott's comments, I get really tired of seeing knock offs.

"Whoo Hooo! Get a Neumann clone for a fraction of the price!!!!!!"

Stick with your SM58 until you can afford a real one. Then hope you actually know how to use it.

I recall a conversation with a radio production guy many years ago who had a U 87 i. "Horrible on acoustic guitar", he said.

I asked where he put the mic. "Right in front of the sound hole, OF COURSE! It was waay boomy. I don't know why people think they're so great."

::sigh::

Regards,

Ty Ford


When I record acoustic guitar, I like to record the whole guitar, not
the sound hole, not the 12th fret, not the upper bout. About six feet
in front is my favoured location in my nicely treated room. Not only
is the guitar properly balanced, but only a smidge of EQ is needed to
kill the slight residue of proximity bass lift.

d


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John Williamson John Williamson is offline
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On 21/12/2020 14:08, Don Pearce wrote:

When I record acoustic guitar, I like to record the whole guitar, not
the sound hole, not the 12th fret, not the upper bout. About six feet
in front is my favoured location in my nicely treated room. Not only
is the guitar properly balanced, but only a smidge of EQ is needed to
kill the slight residue of proximity bass lift.

d

Irony Damn, you've been watching me... ;-)

Unless it was me watching you...

--
Tciao for Now!

John.
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geoff geoff is offline
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On 22/12/2020 4:50 am, John Williamson wrote:
On 21/12/2020 14:08, Don Pearce wrote:

When I record acoustic guitar, I like to record the whole guitar, not
the sound hole, not the 12th fret, not the upper bout. About six feet
in front is my favoured location in my nicely treated room. Not only
is the guitar properly balanced, but only a smidge of EQ is needed to
kill the slight residue of proximity bass lift.

d

Irony Damn, you've been watching me... ;-)

Unless it was me watching you...


An NTC in the mic lead ( or two for a balanced signal) will remove that
hint of artificial bass-boost.

Sorry folks, couldn't resist(or).

Now Mr Phalluson, please take your biplar meds before you post again.

geoff
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On 12/14/2020 11:18 AM, Mike Rivers wrote:
On 12/14/2020 3:13 AM, Paul Dorman wrote:

Â*Â*Â* \I'd like to see some blind tests with
a real U87, and see if people can tell the difference!


That's what they all ask - does it sound like the real thing? Does your
U87 sound like my U87? Probably not exactly.

The important thing is whether it sounds good to you on your projects.
There was a time when there were a few standard studio mics that clients
expected you to have. I bought two, and still have them and use them.
But I have a couple of other mics that "sound like" U87s that don't
sound like either of my U87s, but they're useful in most places where
I'd use a U87 and they're nothing to be ashamed of.

I'm not familiar with this maker and I have no idea where his parts come
from. I know a little more about Mic PartsÂ* they're very open about
their designs and sources. If you're looking to save some money buy
building a mic from a kit, check them out

https://microphone-parts.com/


I'd like to see two blind tests:

1) 5 mics. 4 real U87s, and 1 U87 Clone.
2) 5 mics. 4 Clones, and 1 Real U87.

I'm willing to bet very, very few people could correctly pick
out the 1 Clone, and the 1 Real, in two blind audio tests. Especially
since there are variations even between the real U87s!




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[email protected] palli...@gmail.com is offline
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Paul wrote:
-----------------
** FOAD you vile lunatic


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geoff = know nothing moron wrote:
-----------------------------------------------------


An NTC in the mic lead ( or two for a balanced signal) will remove that
hint of artificial bass-boost.


** Not the tiniest bit funny.

Just plain dumb.

Like the retarded idiot who posted it.


... .Phil


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I'd like to see two blind tests:

1) 5 mics. 4 real U87s, and 1 U87 Clone.
2) 5 mics. 4 Clones, and 1 Real U87.

I'm willing to bet very, very few people could correctly pick
out the 1 Clone, and the 1 Real, in two blind audio tests. Especially
since there are variations even between the real U87s!


I once EQed an RE20 to sound like a U 87 for my voice. For that one incident, the difference was very difficult to tell.
That, by no means, indicates the any similarities.

We (Louis Mills, Mark Patey and I) could tell the difference between a U87 i and a U 87ai.

I guess, what I'm thinking here is that, depending on your tests, you might be convinced of anything. You'd have to run exhaustive tests on music, room (pattern response), preamp loading, and probably a few things I've forgotten to mention here to get any solid data. Would I trust your findings? Probably not.
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On 12/23/2020 8:49 AM, Ty Ford wrote:
I'd like to see two blind tests:

1) 5 mics. 4 real U87s, and 1 U87 Clone.
2) 5 mics. 4 Clones, and 1 Real U87.

I'm willing to bet very, very few people could correctly pick
out the 1 Clone, and the 1 Real, in two blind audio tests. Especially
since there are variations even between the real U87s!


I once EQed an RE20 to sound like a U 87 for my voice. For that one incident, the difference was very difficult to tell.
That, by no means, indicates the any similarities.

We (Louis Mills, Mark Patey and I) could tell the difference between a U87 i and a U 87ai.

I guess, what I'm thinking here is that, depending on your tests, you might be convinced of anything. You'd have to run exhaustive tests on music, room (pattern response), preamp loading, and probably a few things I've forgotten to mention here to get any solid data. Would I trust your findings? Probably not.


You'd want to have a controlled test, where everything else is the
same: pre-amp, room, etc.

Would I trust anyone who claims they picked out the 1 clone,
and the 1 real? Definitely Not!
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geoff geoff is offline
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On 24/12/2020 4:49 am, Ty Ford wrote:
I'd like to see two blind tests:

1) 5 mics. 4 real U87s, and 1 U87 Clone.
2) 5 mics. 4 Clones, and 1 Real U87.

I'm willing to bet very, very few people could correctly pick
out the 1 Clone, and the 1 Real, in two blind audio tests. Especially
since there are variations even between the real U87s!


I once EQed an RE20 to sound like a U 87 for my voice. For that one incident, the difference was very difficult to tell.
That, by no means, indicates the any similarities.

We (Louis Mills, Mark Patey and I) could tell the difference between a U87 i and a U 87ai.

I guess, what I'm thinking here is that, depending on your tests, you might be convinced of anything. You'd have to run exhaustive tests on music, room (pattern response), preamp loading, and probably a few things I've forgotten to mention here to get any solid data. Would I trust your findings? Probably not.


Then move a few inches and it all changes again !

geoff
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You'd want to have a controlled test, where everything else is the
same: pre-amp, room, etc.

Would I trust anyone who claims they picked out the 1 clone,
and the 1 real? Definitely Not!


But with mics, you also need to consider the preamps. We were using Flite Three's API preamps. I use GML and Millennia Media and a Pre-production model of a pre designed by Jim Mikles. Expect the mics to sound different in other preamps.
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Then move a few inches and it all changes again !

geoff


It certainly can, but may not.

Listen to this experiment in moving around a mic. My space is tight but not dead.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fIMf...channel=TyFord

Ty


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On 12/24/2020 8:13 AM, Ty Ford wrote:
You'd want to have a controlled test, where everything else is the
same: pre-amp, room, etc.

Would I trust anyone who claims they picked out the 1 clone,
and the 1 real? Definitely Not!


But with mics, you also need to consider the preamps. We were using Flite Three's API preamps. I use GML and Millennia Media and a Pre-production model of a pre designed by Jim Mikles. Expect the mics to sound different in other preamps.


See if you can guess which one is the
Real U87, WITHOUT LOOKING AT THE
ANSWER IN THE DESCRIPTION!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HbjYaBV0Fc

Again, I'd bet very, very few could pick out 1 real
out of 4 clones!
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Scott Dorsey Scott Dorsey is offline
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Paul Dorman wrote:

I'm willing to bet very, very few people could correctly pick
out the 1 Clone, and the 1 Real, in two blind audio tests. Especially
since there are variations even between the real U87s!


U87s are pretty consistent. There have been production changes over the
years, but even comparing the old style with the battery to the new style,
I don't hear big differences.

Very much unlike the U47, where no two of them sound anything like one
another.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
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On 12/25/2020 8:04 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
Paul Dorman wrote:

I'm willing to bet very, very few people could correctly pick
out the 1 Clone, and the 1 Real, in two blind audio tests. Especially
since there are variations even between the real U87s!


U87s are pretty consistent. There have been production changes over the
years, but even comparing the old style with the battery to the new style,
I don't hear big differences.

Very much unlike the U47, where no two of them sound anything like one
another.
--scott


Again, I'm willing to bet very, very few people could correctly pick
out the 1 Clone, and the 1 Real, in two blind audio tests.

Close your eyes, and see if you can tell when the real U87 is
used:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ouB66R4QrXQ
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On 26/12/2020 22:53, Paul Dorman wrote:
On 12/25/2020 8:04 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:


Again, I'm willing to bet very, very few people could correctly pick
out the 1 Clone, and the 1 Real, in two blind audio tests.

Close your eyes, and see if you can tell when the real U87 is
used:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ouB66R4QrXQ


Between my currently poor monitoring setup and Youtube's mangling of the
audio, I couldn't tell any difference.

Mainly, I suspect the problem may have been with Youtube's audio
compression or the choice of subject matter. I will happily use Youtbe
to assess a performance, but having done the experiment, no way will I
use it to check audio or video quality on a recording.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.
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On 12/27/2020 2:27 AM, John Williamson wrote:
On 26/12/2020 22:53, Paul Dorman wrote:
On 12/25/2020 8:04 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:


Â*Â* Again, I'm willing to bet very, very few people could correctly pick
out the 1 Clone, and the 1 Real, in two blind audio tests.

Â*Â* Close your eyes, and see if you can tell when the real U87 is
used:

Â*Â*Â*Â* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ouB66R4QrXQ


Between my currently poor monitoring setup and Youtube's mangling of the
audio, I couldn't tell any difference.


YouTube's audio is good enough. I have studio monitors on my
home computer, and I can easily tell if a live concert YouTube
video's audio was recorded with tape, or digital. It's like night
and day. It appears the transition from tape to digital, happened
roughly in the later 90's, or early 2000s.


Mainly, I suspect the problem may have been with Youtube's audio
compression or the choice of subject matter. I will happily use Youtbe
to assess a performance, but having done the experiment, no way will I
use it to check audio or video quality on a recording.


Go ahead and use the best equipment you can, at a 192kHz sample
rate, and I'll bet you still won't be able to tell Real versus a
good Clone.

There's no real good reason to be a microphone snob, especially
with MP3s into Apple earbuds!





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On 12/20/2020 8:26 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
Roy W. Rising wrote:
On Monday, December 14, 2020 at 6:37:25 AM UTC-8, Scott Dorsey wrote:
In article ,
Paul Dorman wrote:
What do you folks think about this?

https://dachmanaudio.com/da-87i-vint...er-microphone/

It comes in both kit form, and fully assembled.

I'd certainly love to save thousands!
Everyone and his brother makes a U87 clone. Some are better than others.


If everything else in the kit is true to the original, get a Neumann K87 capsule for less than $1K and put the Dachman capsule in inventory. Then do the blindfold test.


Unfortunately there are two critical things that cannot be true to the
original.

First is the shape of the grille, which actually makes quite a difference in
the sound. You can copy the material, but you can't copy the shape because it
is trademarked and Neumann is very aggressive about legal action. So all the
clones have slightly different grille shapes. The degree to which this changes
the sound is something that nobody has systematically tested.

The second is the diaphragm tensioning... the method Neumann uses today is
a secret. The method all the people copying Neumann capsules use is one
that Neumann abandoned some time in the sixties... and it can work well
only if very skilled people are doing the work very carefully. The KM53
was finally discontinued when the woman who could hand-tension those
capsules retired and they couldn't do it properly anymore. Today, Neumann
uses automated tensioning methods which among other things means a
consistently good null in figure-8 mode. Nobody outside Neumann has seen
it in operation and it has not yet been copied. (Most of the other big
companies also use automated systems but the Neumann method, whatever it is,
is clearly different than the ones Shure, A-T, and AKG are using.)

It's easy to make U87-style microphones, but it's hard to make them well
and I am not sure it's possible to make them exactly like Neumann.


If Neumann is so secretive, then why did they agree to do a
"How It's Made" video on the U87? This video is WAY too clean to be
from the 60's!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RTZy-ThRXeY

And I don't see anything too special here, really. Assuming
they use torque wrenches for the ring that mounts the plastic
membrane, it looks like any assembler could do it.

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On 29/12/2020 13:54, Paul Dorman wrote:

If Neumann is so secretive, then why did they agree to do a
"How It's Made" video on the U87? This video is WAY too clean to be
from the 60's!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RTZy-ThRXeY

And I don't see anything too special here, really. Assuming
they use torque wrenches for the ring that mounts the plastic
membrane, it looks like any assembler could do it.

The "secret ingredients" are not even hinted at in the video. How thick
and how tense is the plastic sheet as delivered to the assembler, and
how thick is the gold plating? What type of plastic is used?

Just a couple of the variables I can see that will make a massive
difference to the end result.

The torque on the screws we saw being fastened, by the way, won't make a
massive difference to the consistency of the microphone performance as
long as they are tight enough, that is set by the consistency between
samples of the tension given to it by the ring it is mounted on during
the plating process, which in turn is governed by the heat treatment at
the initial mounting and plating stages. All the mounting ring you see
being fastened does is to lock that initial tension in place.

All the stuff you see is of minor importance compared to what they do
not show you.

Don't forget that video was passed by the legal department as not
disclosing any commercially sensitive information.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.
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On 12/29/2020 8:16 AM, John Williamson wrote:
On 29/12/2020 13:54, Paul Dorman wrote:

Â*Â*Â*Â* If Neumann is so secretive, then why did they agree to do a
"How It's Made" video on the U87?Â* This video is WAY too clean to be
from the 60's!

Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RTZy-ThRXeY

Â*Â*Â*Â* And I don't see anything too special here, really.Â* Assuming
they use torque wrenches for the ring that mounts the plastic
membrane, it looks like any assembler could do it.

The "secret ingredients" are not even hinted at in the video. How thick
and how tense is the plastic sheet as delivered to the assembler, and
how thick is the gold plating? What type of plastic is used?

Just a couple of the variables I can see that will make a massive
difference to the end result.

The torque on the screws we saw being fastened, by the way, won't make a
massive difference to the consistency of the microphone performance as
long as they are tight enough, that is set by the consistency between
samples of the tension given to it by the ring it is mounted on during
the plating process, which in turn is governedÂ* by the heat treatment at
the initial mounting and plating stages. All the mounting ring you see
being fastened does is to lock that initial tension in place.

All the stuff you see is of minor importance compared to what they do
not show you.

Don't forget that video was passed by the legal department as not
disclosing any commercially sensitive information.


High quality capsule are readily available
from many suppliers:

http://www.pelusomicrophonelab.com/parts/Capsules.html

https://microphone-parts.com/product...ophone-capsule

I'd say the "secret ingredient" is marketing hype, and mic-snobbery!

Very similar to what Steinway did in the piano world!
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On 29/12/2020 17:25, Paul Dorman wrote:
High quality capsule are readily available
from many suppliers:

http://www.pelusomicrophonelab.com/parts/Capsules.html

https://microphone-parts.com/product...ophone-capsule

I'd say the "secret ingredient" is marketing hype, and mic-snobbery!


I do not say that high quality capsules are not available elsewhere,
but, while there is undoubtedly an element of snobbery, if there are
measurable differences in either quality or consistency between brands,
then there is, by definition, a "secret ingredient".

Very similar to what Steinway did in the piano world!


As Steinway hold 139 patents in the field of piano making, they have
many "secret ingredients".

--
Tciao for Now!

John.
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Paul Dorman Paul Dorman is offline
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On 12/29/2020 10:45 AM, John Williamson wrote:
On 29/12/2020 17:25, Paul Dorman wrote:
Â*Â* High quality capsule are readily available
from many suppliers:

Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* http://www.pelusomicrophonelab.com/parts/Capsules.html

Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* https://microphone-parts.com/product...ophone-capsule

Â*Â* I'd say the "secret ingredient" is marketing hype, and mic-snobbery!


I do not say that high quality capsules are not available elsewhere,
but, while there is undoubtedly an element of snobbery, if there are
measurable differences in either quality or consistency between brands,
then there is, by definition, a "secret ingredient".


I don't believe they are noticeable by maybe 97% of people,
which means those differences don't matter.


Â*Â*Â* Very similar to what Steinway did in the piano world!


As Steinway hold 139 patents in the field of piano making, they have
many "secret ingredients".


Not really. Piano technology is well known. There are no secrets.

And I like Yamahas better!




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Scott Dorsey Scott Dorsey is offline
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Default Dachman Audio U87 Clone Kit

Paul Dorman wrote:
If Neumann is so secretive, then why did they agree to do a
"How It's Made" video on the U87? This video is WAY too clean to be
from the 60's!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RTZy-ThRXeY


Because that video doesn't show anything important.

And I don't see anything too special here, really. Assuming
they use torque wrenches for the ring that mounts the plastic
membrane, it looks like any assembler could do it.


There are two things they will not show you:

1. How the backplate is made optically flat and parallel to the diaphragm.

2. How the diaphragm is tensioned.

The trampoline method that all the Chinese factories are using is the method
that Neumann used back in the fifties, and it can be done well with very
skilled people. A torque wrench tells you something but it doesn't tell you
flatness, it only tells you tension at a few points. If you combine this
with interferometry you can make a capsule with a pretty good null. It's
not easy or cheap and you'll go through a lot of material.

The method Neumann is currently using is automated and results in a ring
with the diaphragm evenly tensioned across it and fixed into place. You
can tour the Neumann plant but they won't let you look into the room where
that takes place.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
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John Williamson John Williamson is offline
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Default Dachman Audio U87 Clone Kit

On 29/12/2020 18:24, Paul Dorman wrote:
On 12/29/2020 10:45 AM, John Williamson wrote:
I do not say that high quality capsules are not available elsewhere,
but, while there is undoubtedly an element of snobbery, if there are
measurable differences in either quality or consistency between
brands, then there is, by definition, a "secret ingredient".


I don't believe they are noticeable by maybe 97% of people,
which means those differences don't matter.

If they exist, are measurable and we as professionals want to do the
best for our clients, they do matter, even is only 1% of people can
notice them.

But have you any research to back up your belief?

Very similar to what Steinway did in the piano world!


As Steinway hold 139 patents in the field of piano making, they have
many "secret ingredients".


Not really. Piano technology is well known. There are no secrets.

As it's all mechanical, it can easily be reverse engineered and the
patents evaded, but it's not so easy to reverse engineer the precise
tension in a microphone diaphragm.

And I like Yamahas better!


That is your personal preference, and one opinion is not data.


--
Tciao for Now!

John.
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Paul Dorman Paul Dorman is offline
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Default Dachman Audio U87 Clone Kit

On 12/29/2020 11:35 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
Paul Dorman wrote:
If Neumann is so secretive, then why did they agree to do a
"How It's Made" video on the U87? This video is WAY too clean to be
from the 60's!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RTZy-ThRXeY


Because that video doesn't show anything important.

And I don't see anything too special here, really. Assuming
they use torque wrenches for the ring that mounts the plastic
membrane, it looks like any assembler could do it.


There are two things they will not show you:

1. How the backplate is made optically flat and parallel to the diaphragm.


The flatness of the backplate will depend on the lathe that it is
cut with.


2. How the diaphragm is tensioned.


They DID show the diaphram tensioned!


The trampoline method that all the Chinese factories are using is the method
that Neumann used back in the fifties, and it can be done well with very
skilled people. A torque wrench tells you something but it doesn't tell you
flatness, it only tells you tension at a few points. If you combine this
with interferometry you can make a capsule with a pretty good null. It's
not easy or cheap and you'll go through a lot of material.

The method Neumann is currently using is automated and results in a ring
with the diaphragm evenly tensioned across it and fixed into place. You
can tour the Neumann plant but they won't let you look into the room where
that takes place.
--scott


Capsule construction is not rocket science.
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John Williamson John Williamson is offline
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On 29/12/2020 20:10, Paul Dorman wrote:
On 12/29/2020 11:35 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:


2. How the diaphragm is tensioned.


They DID show the diaphram tensioned!

They showed a pre-tensioned diaphragm being secured by a retaining ring
to the backing plate and a spacer.


--
Tciao for Now!

John.
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Paul Dorman Paul Dorman is offline
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On 12/29/2020 11:43 AM, John Williamson wrote:
On 29/12/2020 18:24, Paul Dorman wrote:
On 12/29/2020 10:45 AM, John Williamson wrote:
I do not say that high quality capsules are not available elsewhere,
but, while there is undoubtedly an element of snobbery, if there are
measurable differences in either quality or consistency between
brands, then there is, by definition, a "secret ingredient".


Â*Â*Â* I don't believe they are noticeable by maybe 97% of people,
which means those differences don't matter.

If they exist, are measurable and we as professionals want to do the
best for our clients, they do matter, even is only 1% of people can
notice them.

But have you any research to back up your belief?


Again, there are plenty of mic shootouts on YouTube.

Most people can't tell the difference. Maybe the
differences don't really exist!



Â*Â*Â*Â* Very similar to what Steinway did in the piano world!

As Steinway hold 139 patents in the field of piano making, they have
many "secret ingredients".


Â*Â*Â* Not really.Â* Piano technology is well known. There are no secrets.

As it's all mechanical, it can easily be reverse engineered and the
patents evaded, but it's not so easy to reverse engineer the precise
tension in a microphone diaphragm.


Bull-S***.

You only need a torque wrench, and any assembler could do it.



Â*Â*Â* And I like Yamahas better!


That is your personal preference, and one opinion is not data.


Not just me. Plenty of world-class pianists
prefer Yamaha.





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On 12/29/2020 1:13 PM, John Williamson wrote:
On 29/12/2020 20:10, Paul Dorman wrote:
On 12/29/2020 11:35 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:


2. How the diaphragm is tensioned.


Â*Â*Â* They DID show the diaphram tensioned!

They showed a pre-tensioned diaphragm being securedÂ* by a retaining ring
to the backing plate and a spacer.


That didn't look like anything special. The gold-sputtered
mylar just has to be flat.

Watch this Soyuz video around the 1:50 mark:


https://www.pro-tools-expert.com/pro...d-part-2-gsps6


The mylar is put into the tensioning ring, and tensioned by the
technician by hand. He doesn't measure the tension with any device!

Also, the technician securing the diaphragm to the backing plate,
does NOT appear to use a torque-wrench!

I'm not claiming the technicians don't need skill to do this work,
but it's clear there aren't any secrets in capsule building.

I would say reverse-engineering is the bane of all Mic-Snobs!



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Paul Dorman wrote:
On 12/29/2020 11:35 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
And I don't see anything too special here, really. Assuming
they use torque wrenches for the ring that mounts the plastic
membrane, it looks like any assembler could do it.


No, you're at least two orders of magnitude off. However, that's how the
Chinese guys do it.

There are two things they will not show you:

1. How the backplate is made optically flat and parallel to the diaphragm.


The flatness of the backplate will depend on the lathe that it is
cut with.


Umm... no. It's flat. Not mils flat, not microns flat. It's hundreds of
angstroms flat. It's flat enough that you put the plate on it and you
don't see any Newton's rings. It is cut, yes, but then it's lapped and
then sometimes a third process is used to make it still flatter.

More than that, it's absolutely parallel to the diaphragm. This turns out
to be hard to do because it relies on more than just the stator being
flat.

If you don't get these right, your null in figure-8 mode turns to crap
because you can't balance the two halves of the capsule properly.

Capsule construction is not rocket science.


Most of it isn't. I can make a serviceable K87-style capsule with a decent
null, after a good bit of practice. Making a KM84 capsule is a lot harder.
But you look at the more modern pop-together designs and it's impossible to
do any of those by hand.

I suggest you try it. I thought it would be a lot easier than it is.
Start with an M7 because it's definitely the easiest one to tension on
a trampoline and you can do it mostly with jeweler's tools. You'll need
to make custom jigs to drill the backplate but Neumann did something very
smart to make it easy to lap it on a hand machine.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
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Paul Dorman wrote:

https://www.pro-tools-expert.com/pro...d-part-2-gsps6

The mylar is put into the tensioning ring, and tensioned by the
technician by hand. He doesn't measure the tension with any device!

Also, the technician securing the diaphragm to the backing plate,
does NOT appear to use a torque-wrench!

I'm not claiming the technicians don't need skill to do this work,
but it's clear there aren't any secrets in capsule building.


This is the trampoline method I described. There are a couple steps left
out of that video but it's basically all that goes on.

Modern manufacturers do not use this method any longer, but it is possible
to get consistent capsules made this way if you have enough skill.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
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On 30/12/2020 9:13 am, Paul Dorman wrote:




Â*Â*Â* And I like Yamahas better!


That is your personal preference, and one opinion is not data.


Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* Not just me.Â* Plenty of world-class pianists
prefer Yamaha.




And some world class rock singers prefer SM58s ....

geoff
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On 12/29/2020 4:06 PM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
Paul Dorman wrote:
On 12/29/2020 11:35 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
And I don't see anything too special here, really. Assuming
they use torque wrenches for the ring that mounts the plastic
membrane, it looks like any assembler could do it.


No, you're at least two orders of magnitude off. However, that's how the
Chinese guys do it.

There are two things they will not show you:

1. How the backplate is made optically flat and parallel to the diaphragm.


The flatness of the backplate will depend on the lathe that it is
cut with.


Umm... no. It's flat. Not mils flat, not microns flat. It's hundreds of
angstroms flat. It's flat enough that you put the plate on it and you
don't see any Newton's rings. It is cut, yes, but then it's lapped and
then sometimes a third process is used to make it still flatter.


It's not hard to make a surface very flat. You'll
have to Bull-S*** better than that!


More than that, it's absolutely parallel to the diaphragm. This turns out
to be hard to do because it relies on more than just the stator being
flat.

If you don't get these right, your null in figure-8 mode turns to crap
because you can't balance the two halves of the capsule properly.

Capsule construction is not rocket science.


Most of it isn't. I can make a serviceable K87-style capsule with a decent
null, after a good bit of practice. Making a KM84 capsule is a lot harder.
But you look at the more modern pop-together designs and it's impossible to
do any of those by hand.

I suggest you try it. I thought it would be a lot easier than it is.
Start with an M7 because it's definitely the easiest one to tension on
a trampoline and you can do it mostly with jeweler's tools. You'll need
to make custom jigs to drill the backplate but Neumann did something very
smart to make it easy to lap it on a hand machine.
--scott


Comments from Richard Wielgosz:

"If you're buying good parts like a Peluso capsule and transformer, the
parts come out to about $575. It's not magic, the rest of the components
are just common electronics parts. Caps, resistors, etc.... Neumann
builds lovely mic bodies machined to serious standards, so using a less
expensive body saves money here. The commonly used body is about $150 of
the aforementioned price. Is it as nice as the Neumann? No. Does it need
to be? No. The 150 one I've seen is plenty substantial. The rest is just
how good the clone of the actual circuit is. And the circuit boards
being used here are EXACT clones of a particular vintage U87 circuit. I
think he cloned a circuit from a 1970s U87.

So German capsules are between $600 and $800. Is the Peluso as good as
the Neumann? Well, a friend of mine who is a well respected tech in the
audio industry (he is known by everyone) uses Peluso capsules to replace
capsules in any German mics he repairs unless otherwise instructed by
the client. The Peluso U87 capsule is about $266. It is as good as the
Neumann? My friend thinks so. But objectively is it? Maybe, maybe not,
but if it's 97% there NO ONE is going to notice the odd 3%.

So yes, if you use good components, these are faithful reproductions of
a U87. They sound amazing.

This IS NOT a clone of the modern U87ai, which has a different amplifier
circuit and puts out about 8 dB more gain. So it is a little quieter,
but the circuit is a clone of the real U87 I work with in one of the
studios where I work, and give me that circuit all day long.

Here's why it's possible to build a high quality clone for less than
$1000 and certainly WAY less than what Neumann charges.


You see, NEUMANN ALREADY DID THE ENGINEERING ON THE MIC 50 YEARS AGO.
They were developing a solid state version of their U67 tube mic. Since
phantom power was lower voltage and lower current than the PSU's
available for tube mics, they had to develop a new capsule with dual
isolated backplates, and a new amplifier circuit. THEY ALREADY DID THE
MATH. Now, copying what they did is easy, and dozens of suppliers have
very high quality replicas of their capsules, and this circuit is an
EXACT replica of the amplifier circuit.


The sound in mics like these mostly comes from 3 places. In order of
importance it is probably the capsule, the circuit, and the
grill/capsule basket. The capsules are high quality replicas, the
circuit is exact, and the grill/basket varies depending on whose mic
bodies you use.


As I said, there is no magic here. IT'S JUST COMPONENTS THAT CAN BE, AND
HAVE BEEN COPIED."


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