"Charles Tomaras" wrote:

To my ears listening from the Dolby Digital signal in surround it
seemed that the crowd mics were picking up the flapping of towels


The sound I'm describing was not natural... it was a very obvious
electronic fault.

The left channel, and only the left channel, crackled constantly. It
did not ever go away.

--
"It CAN'T be too loud... some of the red lights aren't even on yet!"
- Lorin David Schultz
in the control room
making even bad news sound good

(Remove spamblock to reply)

well said


wrote in message
oups.com...

Iain Fraser wrote:
i inderstand your point - but that doesnt explain why the guitar was OFF
for
the 1st half of the 1st song!!!


If I was mixing a band with Ron Wood I'd keep him off for the first
half of the whole gig.

Dr. Dolittle wrote:

Umm, they were playing indoors. Geez, any more excuses for that half
assed guitar playing?

Wild Turkey?

wrote:

wHat is it with these networks thinking that the play by
play announcer needs to be buried in noise?



It's a balancing act...

As important as the announcer is, he's not always the most critical
sonic element. Most of the time he's not really saying much anyway;
he's just blowing out verbal airfill (as opposed to landfill).

The sound of the crowd and the field of play draw you in and create
excitement. Cranking 'em up makes it more fun. To test that point, all
you to do is listen to a game where the crowd just isn't into it. It's
dull.

Obviously we don't want to completely bury the voice talent, but at
times we'll err on the side of excitement over intelligibility.

--
"It CAN'T be too loud... some of the red lights aren't even on yet!"
- Lorin David Schultz
in the control room
making even bad news sound good

(Remove spamblock to reply)

"Willie K. Yee, MD" wrote:

Oh man. He watches football games with a scope on the sound. My
nomination for Most Gone Soundgeek.

I wasn't watching a football game, I was watching and listening to an
incoming feed. The fact that it happened to be a feed of a football
game was mostly irrelevant.



"WillStG" wrote:

Betcha $5 Lorin was watching the game at his TV job, where they have
audio scopes

Willie owes Will five bucks.



"Willie K. Yee, MD" wrote:

Oh. I forgot that we still actually have pros on this newsgroup.

Really?! Anyone I might know?!


--
"It CAN'T be too loud... some of the red lights aren't even on yet!"
- Lorin David Schultz
in the control room
making even bad news sound good

(Remove spamblock to reply)

wrote:

iS ****ty audio a part of big network production in TV land
by design these days for some reason?


Yes, and the reasons are cost and convenience. Creating a setting
that's good for sound is inconvenient for picture. Better sound would
mean you couldn't have massive reflective surfaces including glass and
tile all over the set, and the talent would have great big mics in front
of their faces. Prettiness would suffer. Cost would go up. No one but
audio geeks would notice.

If it's any consolation to you, I'm constantly fighting two battles from
my chair in the control for the evening news:

One, I'm doing my best to make sure screaming loud commercials get
pulled off the server and redubbed at decent levels. I'm also pushing
the output of my show up to where it's roughly comparable to the level
of the commercials so that you don't have to dive for your remote at the
beginning and end of every break.

Two, I'm doing everything in my power to eliminate dynamic range. TV
news is about understanding what's being said, not pretty audio. Where
intelligibility is king, soft passages are the enemy. Obviously I don't
do that when I'm mixing music or other program formats, but I do my best
to make sure no viewer ever mutters "Whaddesay?"

If you're unhappy with something, send an email to the station. If it's
something they believe is a problem, and it's something they can fix,
they just might.

--
"It CAN'T be too loud... some of the red lights aren't even on yet!"
- Lorin David Schultz
in the control room
making even bad news sound good

(Remove spamblock to reply)

What's a super bowl? Some sort of sporting contest? Is it renowned
for tacky half-time entertainment?

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On 2006-02-07 said:
wrote:
Is ****ty audio a part of big network production in TV land
by design these days for some reason?
Yes, and the reasons are cost and convenience. Creating a setting
that's good for sound is inconvenient for picture. Better sound
would mean you couldn't have massive reflective surfaces including
glass and tile all over the set, and the talent would have great
big mics in front of their faces. Prettiness would suffer. Cost
would go up. No one but audio geeks would notice.
If it's any consolation to you, I'm constantly fighting two battles
from my chair in the control for the evening news:
One, I'm doing my best to make sure screaming loud commercials get
pulled off the server and redubbed at decent levels. I'm also
pushing the output of my show up to where it's roughly comparable
to the level of the commercials so that you don't have to dive for
your remote at the beginning and end of every break.
Two, I'm doing everything in my power to eliminate dynamic range.
TV news is about understanding what's being said, not pretty audio.
Where intelligibility is king, soft passages are the enemy.
Obviously I don't do that when I'm mixing music or other program
formats, but I do my best to make sure no viewer ever mutters
"Whaddesay?"
That's as it should be. I don't believe I've ever heard any
of your Tv productions from the newsroom, but your thoughts
dovetail with mine on what that type of production requires.
I don't have cable TV and haven't had since about 1995.
I used to listen to a lot of the St. Louis Cardinal games on
AM radio. SEems to me if I recall what i heard that they
used compression on the talent to keep them at near
constant levels and more compression on the ambient mics so
that when the play by play man spoke it ducked the crowd
noise a bit but it was still audible.
SImpe side chain on this compression of course.
CAn't the network truck at the game employ this at least for
the play-by-play man? A lot of the so-called color guys
that side them could be muzzled, a ducker on them or just a
"shut up now" signal would be nice for some of those guys.
ABC led the charge with Monday night FOotball when it comes
to tv sports audio that sucked. HOward coselle and those
other two guys. WAsn't a play by play announcer in the
whole damn trio.
I used to turn on CBs radio and listen to Jack Buck while we
watched the game on the tube for benefit of my sighted
friends.



Richard WEbb,
Electric SPider Productions
Replace anything before the @ symbol with elspider for real
email address.



Amazing how much tape is on a 10" reel when it's not.

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On 2006-02-07 said:
wrote:
What is it with these networks thinking that the play by
play announcer needs to be buried in noise?
It's a balancing act...
As important as the announcer is, he's not always the most critical
sonic element. Most of the time he's not really saying much anyway;
he's just blowing out verbal airfill (as opposed to landfill).
The sound of the crowd and the field of play draw you in and create
excitement. Cranking 'em up makes it more fun. To test that point,
all you to do is listen to a game where the crowd just isn't into
it. It's dull.
Obviously we don't want to completely bury the voice talent, but at
times we'll err on the side of excitement over intelligibility.
Agreed. YEt this old blind man remembers many happy hours
spent checking out the baseball game on the radio. YEs you
could hear the excitement of the crowd and all the other
good noise that "put you there' but you could still hear the
play by play announcer.

true enough, a lot of television play by play guys have lost
the art of calling a game too. YEt for some reason I still
find that radio feeds do a much better job. THen again their
announcers have to do their part to keep you there.

Quit watching the stupor bowl when I couldn't find it on
radio anywhere.



Richard WEbb,
Electric SPider Productions
Replace anything before the @ symbol with elspider for real
email address.



Great audio is never heard by the average person, but bad
audio is heard by everyone.

In article . net,
"Tommy B" wrote:

Ah...... The Rolling Stones..................
Saw them at the garden in '69, they were FANTASTIC!
Might be the best R&R show I have ever experienced.




Saw them at the Boston Garden show in '69, and their next Boston Garden
show which was either in '70 or '71, when Mick & Keith got arrested in a
Warwick, RI airport on their way to the show, and had to be gotten outta
the clink by Boston Mayor Kevin White. (Think they were arrested for
giving airport cops some attitude, not for drugs.)

Ironically, they were rushed to Boston, transported surrounded by State
Police cars, as White was afraid of the consequences of a no show. The
band came on after midnight, with the Mayor first telling everyone in
the place that there would be no curfew, as their was for rock shows
back then.

That version of the Stones, with Mick Taylor, was the best live Rock and
Roll Band I ever saw.

And I've seen quite a few.

The band that played the Superbowl is long past its prime. God bless 'em
anyway.





David Correia
www.Celebrationsound.com

It seems as though every mention I read about the Stones excuses their
performances because they are so old.

I bet they hate that. later, ron


But every single one of us
commented on how amazing it was that the Stones could get up and do
this at their ages.

And, being not so far from that age ourselves, every one of us was
grateful!

wrote:

I was amazed that at their age they (esp. Mick) could run around like
that and not even be breathing heavily. Regardless of how they sounded,
I have to admire his physical fitness and boundless energy.

Ever seen Steven Tyler? And they actually sound good.

Geoff@home wrote:

They were just scared Mick would change his mind say "cock".


He did say cock. And he said make a dead man come. ABC edited it out.
It's all over the news.

flatfish wrote:


However, I give the Stones a lot of credit for just getting up there and
doing it without any concern over what people think. A lot of poeple like
them and ya can't argue with that.

A lot of people pay big money for it. That is the only reason they do it.

Agent 86 wrote:

Dr. Dolittle wrote:


Umm, they were playing indoors. Geez, any more excuses for that half
assed guitar playing?


Wild Turkey?

Ok, I'll buy that one.

Laurence Payne wrote:
What's a super bowl? Some sort of sporting contest? Is it renowned
for tacky half-time entertainment?

Yeah, I've been trying to figure it out from context too, but no luck. :-)


Bob
--

"Things should be described as simply as possible, but no simpler."

A. Einstein

"Bob Cain" wrote in message
...


Laurence Payne wrote:
What's a super bowl? Some sort of sporting contest? Is it renowned
for tacky half-time entertainment?

Yeah, I've been trying to figure it out from context too, but no luck.
:-)

It is a large container for drinks. I think you serve yourself
out of it by using a "World Cup" or something like that?

"Lorin David Schultz" wrote in message
news:CJ8Gf.183151$AP5.163573@edtnps84...
"Charles Tomaras" wrote:

To my ears listening from the Dolby Digital signal in surround it
seemed that the crowd mics were picking up the flapping of towels


The sound I'm describing was not natural... it was a very obvious
electronic fault.

The left channel, and only the left channel, crackled constantly. It did
not ever go away.


Even my dear 82 year old dad with very bad hearing (and no hearing aids)
almost immediately got up and went over to the left speaker and bent down to
try to determine what was wrong. And he isn't a musician or sound engineer.

John L Rice

"Lorin David Schultz" wrote in message
news:CJ8Gf.183151$AP5.163573@edtnps84...
"Charles Tomaras" wrote:

To my ears listening from the Dolby Digital signal in surround it
seemed that the crowd mics were picking up the flapping of towels


The sound I'm describing was not natural... it was a very obvious
electronic fault.

The left channel, and only the left channel, crackled constantly. It did
not ever go away

Must have been an issue on the affiliates end of things as I decidedly did
not hear that in my DD HD OTA setup and I was sitting in the sweet spot
being fairly attentive to what was going on.

"John L Rice" wrote in message
...

"Lorin David Schultz" wrote in message
news:CJ8Gf.183151$AP5.163573@edtnps84...
"Charles Tomaras" wrote:

To my ears listening from the Dolby Digital signal in surround it
seemed that the crowd mics were picking up the flapping of towels


The sound I'm describing was not natural... it was a very obvious
electronic fault.

The left channel, and only the left channel, crackled constantly. It did
not ever go away.


Even my dear 82 year old dad with very bad hearing (and no hearing aids)
almost immediately got up and went over to the left speaker and bent down
to try to determine what was wrong. And he isn't a musician or sound
engineer.

John L Rice

Again I will say that watching an OTA HD signal in DD with a 5.1 system I
did not hear what you describe. I was watching KOMO TV in Seattle with a
small yagi antenna on the roof. For those of you who heard this left channel
crackling, who was your content provider and were you monitoring a stereo
downmix or the actual DD broadcast signal. Seeem like this is something that
was happening on the SD feed and not the HD feed.

hell yeah


"Dr. Dolittle" wrote in message
...


wrote:

I was amazed that at their age they (esp. Mick) could run around like
that and not even be breathing heavily. Regardless of how they sounded,
I have to admire his physical fitness and boundless energy.

Ever seen Steven Tyler? And they actually sound good.

Bob Cain writes:

Laurence Payne wrote:
What's a super bowl? Some sort of sporting contest? Is it renowned
for tacky half-time entertainment?

Yeah, I've been trying to figure it out from context too, but no luck. :-)
Bob

It's a week-long bowling tournament held every winter in Hamtramck Michigan.
Rumour has it that one year Darren McCarty showed up with Lord Stanley's Cup.

I thought the Superbowl version of "Satisfaction" was moderately
satisfying though.

On a cross country JetBlue with the cheapass crummy little headphones,
watching on the 4" x 5" LCD in the seatback, with a background ambience
of jet engines at about 95 db SPL, the Stones sounded perfect. The
whole time I was thinking "These guys are every bit as good as they
were 30 years ago."

Scott Fraser

Aw, **** it. We wish we were all making that kind of money regardless of
whether we could do the performances we used to do.

Except Eubie Blake. He could play like a mofo at 100 years old and did so.
Not a Thelonious, not a Herbie or a Chick, but still undeniably Eubie and
that's what you have to look at. If the Stones haven't been playing the way
the Stones play then no one would want to see them. But since the idea of
not playing well since 1983 brings the point forward, all those who want to
see them since 1983 should be able to do so and the rest of us simply have
the opportunity to drool over their profits

After all, you guys complaining didn't go to the Super Bowl, did you?

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio
http://blogs.salon.com/0004478/
"Is our children learning?"
President George W. Bush
"greggery peccary" .@. wrote in message
...

"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
...
In article .com,
Nate Najar wrote:
i've never heard guitars that out of tune before!

Okay, first of all, you have a band consisting of people who are
profoundly
deaf, after many years in front of monitors blasting over huge
backlines.

Secondly, these people spent decades taking every possible psychoactive
drug available, scraping their brains down to the rind.

This is a waltzing bear. The fact that they aren't performing well is
irrelevant. The fact that they can, after all this, still actually get
up on stage without being gaffer-taped into position is amazing.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

The Stones have had major tonal issues at least since I saw them in '83
and
could barely decipher what songs they were playing... not as disappointing
as that game tho, what a farse!

I think that the on field refes should no longer be allowed to make instant
calls. If something questionable happens they must review ALL video footage
and discuss with no less than three refs before making the call. Partially
because the video footage seems to be more accurate and partially because I
want to see the refs reprimanded! ;-) And hey, I realize it's a tough job,
but it's high time the solid evidence of the replays is considered before
making the call.

John L Rice

What, the games aren't long enough already? Between commercial time out
etc. we'll have 6 hour games at this rate.

Charles Tomaras wrote:

Again I will say that watching an OTA HD signal in DD with a 5.1 system I
did not hear what you describe. I was watching KOMO TV in Seattle with a
small yagi antenna on the roof. For those of you who heard this left channel
crackling, who was your content provider and were you monitoring a stereo
downmix or the actual DD broadcast signal. Seeem like this is something that
was happening on the SD feed and not the HD feed.

I was watching on my computer (which has a built in tuner). No feed
problem, no decoding problem, everything as normal. Except for the
massive crackling noise in the left channel. .

Stones were like the first proto-punk rockers right?

I kind of liked it, that they had the "stones" to come out and play so
sloppy, and ...happily in front of like 500 million people.

But I think the point is, if a group is getting paid huge amounts of
money to continue to perform, at least they should make *some" effort to
keep it together. To occasional practice the songs, to keep up at least
half way on their instruments.

They are only make fools of their fans.

Roger W. Norman wrote:

Aw, **** it. We wish we were all making that kind of money regardless of
whether we could do the performances we used to do.

Except Eubie Blake. He could play like a mofo at 100 years old and did so.
Not a Thelonious, not a Herbie or a Chick, but still undeniably Eubie and
that's what you have to look at. If the Stones haven't been playing the way
the Stones play then no one would want to see them. But since the idea of
not playing well since 1983 brings the point forward, all those who want to
see them since 1983 should be able to do so and the rest of us simply have
the opportunity to drool over their profits

After all, you guys complaining didn't go to the Super Bowl, did you?

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio
http://blogs.salon.com/0004478/
"Is our children learning?"
President George W. Bush
"greggery peccary" .@. wrote in message
...

"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
...

In article .com,
Nate Najar wrote:

i've never heard guitars that out of tune before!

Okay, first of all, you have a band consisting of people who are

profoundly

deaf, after many years in front of monitors blasting over huge

backlines.

Secondly, these people spent decades taking every possible psychoactive
drug available, scraping their brains down to the rind.

This is a waltzing bear. The fact that they aren't performing well is
irrelevant. The fact that they can, after all this, still actually get
up on stage without being gaffer-taped into position is amazing.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

The Stones have had major tonal issues at least since I saw them in '83

and

could barely decipher what songs they were playing... not as disappointing
as that game tho, what a farse!

"Dr. Dolittle" wrote in message
news


Charles Tomaras wrote:

Again I will say that watching an OTA HD signal in DD with a 5.1 system I
did not hear what you describe. I was watching KOMO TV in Seattle with a
small yagi antenna on the roof. For those of you who heard this left
channel crackling, who was your content provider and were you monitoring
a stereo downmix or the actual DD broadcast signal. Seeem like this is
something that was happening on the SD feed and not the HD feed.

I was watching on my computer (which has a built in tuner). No feed
problem, no decoding problem, everything as normal. Except for the massive
crackling noise in the left channel. .

So where you receiving the HD feed or SD feed? Do you have an HD tuner in
your computer?

Again I will say that watching an OTA HD signal in DD with a 5.1 system
I
did not hear what you describe. I was watching KOMO TV in Seattle with a
small yagi antenna on the roof. For those of you who heard this left
channel
crackling, who was your content provider and were you monitoring a
stereo
downmix or the actual DD broadcast signal. Seeem like this is something
that
was happening on the SD feed and not the HD feed.

I was watching on my computer (which has a built in tuner). No feed
problem, no decoding problem, everything as normal. Except for the
massive crackling noise in the left channel. .


As a reference point, I was watching an analog signal and listening to the
surround through an old ProLogic receiver. The crackling was bad a couple
times.

-John O

"Charles Tomaras" wrote in message
. ..

For those of you who heard this left channel crackling, who was your
content provider and were you monitoring a stereo downmix or the
actual DD broadcast signal.


Like I said originally, ABC HD feed directly off the satellite, stereo
downmix. I'm not sure where the audio signal was downconverted. Our
internal router matrix is only set up for two channel audio, so it would
have been downmixed ahead of that. The engineers who handle the HD
stuff aren't in on weekends (and half of them are in Italy now) so there
was no one around to tell me how HD feeds get into our SDI system.

--
"It CAN'T be too loud... some of the red lights aren't even on yet!"
- Lorin David Schultz
in the control room
making even bad news sound good

(Remove spamblock to reply)

wrote:

CAn't the network truck at the game employ this at least for
the play-by-play man?


On most of the sports remotes I've done, radio is in a closed booth, TV
booth is open to the field. If the crowd is loud enough, no amount of
signal processing is going to correct the balance. I wonder if crowd
noise through the *announcer* mic is what's giving you fits?

--
"It CAN'T be too loud... some of the red lights aren't even on yet!"
- Lorin David Schultz
in the control room
making even bad news sound good

(Remove spamblock to reply)

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On 2006-02-09 said:
wrote:
CAn't the network truck at the game employ this at least for
the play-by-play man?
On most of the sports remotes I've done, radio is in a closed booth,
TV booth is open to the field. If the crowd is loud enough, no
amount of signal processing is going to correct the balance. I
wonder if crowd noise through the *announcer* mic is what's giving
you fits?
Yep, and that's a recent development (read last decade or
so) as they used to be in a booth just like the radio guys,
and some still are for baseball games I think.
wOuld explain a lot of this though.



Richard WEbb,
Electric SPider Productions
Replace anything before the @ symbol with elspider for real
email address.



Great audio is never heard by the average person, but bad
audio is heard by everyone.