| Home |
| Search |
| Today's Posts |
|
#41
|
|||
|
|||
|
|
#42
|
|||
|
|||
|
I appreciate the time you've taken to respond and some areas are still under
discussion. There are too many issues for me to summarize what I've learned but I intend to return and do that at the first of the year. I do think I will keep reading and buy a neon tester and outlet tester to start. My intent was to address the issue and hopefully make someone somewhere think. If I were to stretch for a simple, preliminary conclusion, it would be this: CAUTION: If you want a little amp just for playing at home, and especially if you have children, don't buy a vintage tube amp unless you know what you are doing. That may be stating the obvious but there it is, for now. It may be hard for some to believe, but it's easy to reach this purchase plan when you hear how simple those old point-to-point amps are, so easy to fix that hand-wiring, any repairman can do it, screw those circuit boards... Even portfolio managers are advising clients to diversify into vintage gear so it's a great investment, what are you waiting for, prices are going up as we speak.... Sometimes it's difficult to stand outside the box so I wonder if some of the "veterans" may be a little too cavalier in their approach - but honestly that is to be expected in any field. Maybe I AM being too cautious, maybe I AM thinking too hard on this, but I better figure that out first. My little girl is worth more to me than anything else in the world. I don't mind looking foolish if it is erring on the cautious side - the best advice so far. I sincerely appreciate the time and efforts of all you have responded. Dan |
|
#43
|
|||
|
|||
|
|
|
#44
|
|||
|
|||
|
Sander deWaal wrote in message . ..
(bulldog) said: Well, as a former tube amp technician who has been shocked more times with more volts than I would care to count, I would say suck it up. Yeah it hurts but you'll most probobly live. You'd sell an amp with a safety risk to an unsuspecting customer? I wouldn't . First of all I didn't sell amps. I repaired them. The owner already knew his amplifier. He knew what to do and not to do. He also knew what he should touch and what not to touch. Old 2 prong tube amps had their safety issues, but the owners accepted that, and continued using them because they liked them. Remember, the type of equipment in question was built long before everybody started seuing everybody else. Bulldog |
|
#46
|
|||
|
|||
|
Was I giving out advice?
You are such a blowhard.....no wonder you're hated so much on the net..... m |
|
#47
|
|||
|
|||
|
I just recently shocked the crap out of my-self with a hot chassis SE
baby amp, with a polarized plug I installed and insured was at AC ground when plugged it. This little ******* even blew the sound circuit in my wifes computer when I was plugging the signal plugs in to see how it sounded and I actually drew a spark across the ground side of the rca plug.. Hot chassis amps shouldn't be on without an isolation xformer, IMO. I just bought an ammo box to mount a couple of cheap 2 amp 12v xformers in back -to-back in order to avoid this in the future. Bob Hedberg. Lord Valve wrote: chetatkinsdiet wrote: Man, you are putting way, way, way too much thought into this. You want to get a little low wattage tube amp....get one. Don't worry about converting a 3 watt amp to a grounded plug. It's not like the same punch as a vintage Ampeg SVT, Sunn or Acoustic will give you. Wasn't it an Acoustic amp that killed the guy from Uriah Heep? Anyway....you missed a good one on that little Silvertone. Those are great sounding bedroom and studio amps. Funky little circuits, yes, but they sound great. later, m A hot chassis has *no* relationship to the output power of the amplifier. Touching one is *exactly* the same as grabbing a bare wire connected to the AC line. If you're grounded, you'll get the **** shocked out of you, whether the amp is 1 watt or 10,000. You might die from it. *You* have no business handing out safety information. Go practice your scales (or, if you're a rock player, your scale) and leave the tech stuff to the people who know it. Lord Valve Expert Bob H. Just grab that plate in one hand, the chassis in the other, and FEEL the power of tube audio!!! (not literally, of course, just kidding. DON'T DO THAT!) |
|
#48
|
|||
|
|||
|
chetatkinsdiet wrote: Was I giving out advice? Yes. "Don't worry about converting a 3 watt amp to a grounded plug. It's not like the same punch as a vintage Ampeg SVT, Sunn or Acoustic will give you." You're a technical ignoramus, and that statement proves it...in spades. It's advice, and it's *dangerous* advice. Next time, shut the **** up. You are such a blowhard.....no wonder you're hated so much on the net..... Knowing your **** will get you hated in lots of places. Like I said - go practice your scale and leave the tech stuff to the techs. Lord Valve Expert |
|
#49
|
|||
|
|||
|
On Sat, 20 Nov 2004 20:50:05 +0100, Sander deWaal
wrote: Dave Curtis said: I recommend the neon tester. Cheap insurance. I recommend an insulation transformer. Isolation transformer. Expensive insurance. Still needs an equipment ground, and the neon tester will still tell you if the outlets are wired right. -Dave |
|
#50
|
|||
|
|||
|
Geoff Wood wrote:
My point (and that of the manufacturers) is that the chassis isn't hot unless the amplifier is broken. I don't drive cars when I know there's a leak in a brake line either. But you don't necessarily know there's a leak in the brake until you are driving, and try to stop. And you don't necessarily know the amp chassis is hot until the bass player tries to hand you a joint (or a beer, or a soda) at rehearsal. Then, if there's a potential difference between the chassis of the two amps, BOTH players get zapped. It doesn't matter WHICH one is hot (with respect to ground). |
|
#51
|
|||
|
|||
|
"bulldog" wrote in message om... Sander deWaal wrote in message . .. (bulldog) said: Well, as a former tube amp technician who has been shocked more times with more volts than I would care to count, I would say suck it up. Yeah it hurts but you'll most probobly live. You'd sell an amp with a safety risk to an unsuspecting customer? I wouldn't . First of all I didn't sell amps. I repaired them. The owner already knew his amplifier. He knew what to do and not to do. He also knew what he should touch and what not to touch. Old 2 prong tube amps had their safety issues, but the owners accepted that, and continued using them because they liked them. Remember, the type of equipment in question was built long before everybody started seuing everybody else. Seuing -is that Kprean ? Anyway, only pansy lberial commie socialist cry-babies would worry about a healthy dose of mains up the armpit, eh. Good strong christofascists like us can take it no problem. geoff |
|
#52
|
|||
|
|||
|
bulldog wrote:
First of all I didn't sell amps. I repaired them. The owner already knew his amplifier. He knew what to do and not to do. He also knew what he should touch and what not to touch. Old 2 prong tube amps had their safety issues, but the owners accepted that, and continued using them because they liked them. Remember, the type of equipment in question was built long before everybody started seuing everybody else. How did people survive all those years with so many radios having a hot chassis? They seemed safe enough to be sold by the thousands to everyone. What really scares me are resistor cords... Adam |
|
#53
|
|||
|
|||
|
Dave Curtis wrote:
Isolation transformer. Expensive insurance. Still needs an equipment ground, and the neon tester will still tell you if the outlets are wired right. -Dave As another poster said, an ammo can and two transformers wired back to back. Can't imagine it costing more than $30 if you hit the surplus stores/websites. Adam |
|
#54
|
|||
|
|||
|
"Adam Stouffer" wrote in message news:X2fod.4843$1B2.3482@trnddc02... bulldog wrote: First of all I didn't sell amps. I repaired them. The owner already knew his amplifier. He knew what to do and not to do. He also knew what he should touch and what not to touch. Old 2 prong tube amps had their safety issues, but the owners accepted that, and continued using them because they liked them. Remember, the type of equipment in question was built long before everybody started seuing everybody else. How did people survive all those years with so many radios having a hot chassis? They seemed safe enough to be sold by the thousands to everyone. What really scares me are resistor cords... When I was a kid (ca. 1965), my aunt had an Arvin radio, typical All American 5, hot chassis with a painted metal case. It was in the basement, over a nice concrete floor. Standing in my bare feet, I got a nasty jolt when I touched it. I mentioned it to my aunt, and she said "Oh, you need to turn the plug over". That's how we dealt with stuff like that back then. |
|
#55
|
|||
|
|||
|
Don't worry about converting a 3 watt amp to a grounded plug. It's not like the same punch as a vintage Ampeg SVT, Sunn or Acoustic will give you. When it comes to a shorted capacitor making the chassis hot with respect to AC ground, a 3 watt amp will indeed give you the same "punch" as a large, high powered one. This was what I thought was an obvious joke. Seriously though....I just realized that this thread was cross-posted to all these techie groups....no wonder everyone sounds like this. As I sit in my room surrounded by vintage Ampegs, Sunns, Marshalls, Fenders, Silvertones, Montgomery Ward, Vox and probably a few others I can't see right now....most of which are two prong cords....I don't worry about this sort of thing. Let me clarify. I check it out when I get a new/old amp. If it's fine then, I don't worry about it. If I happen to have one of these guys in the shop later on, my tech will sometimes change cords for me or tell me everything is fine. Simple. As Mike says earlier, if you're that worried about every little thing then you probably have no business playing in a bar anyway where you could get hit with a drumstick, a beer bottle, or really be out driving that late at night with all the other drunks on the road. Heck, I'd probably say playing a vintage amp is safer than going to an NBA game these days.... later, m |
|
#56
|
|||
|
|||
|
Bob Hedberg wrote:
This little ******* even blew the sound circuit in my wifes computer when I was plugging the signal plugs in to see how it sounded and I actually drew a spark across the ground side of the rca plug.. Let me guess, the computer wasn't grounded? Regards, Kimjand |
|
#57
|
|||
|
|||
|
"chetatkinsdiet" wrote in message Fenders, Silvertones, Montgomery Ward, Vox and probably a few others I can't see right now....most of which are two prong cords.... Two-prong cords are not the same as 'hot chassis'. You can have a two-prong cord with the chassis still isolated by a mains transformer. geoff |
|
#58
|
|||
|
|||
|
It's not knowing your **** that makes one hated. It's being a total
dickhead, knowitall like you that has zero sense of humor that starts a conversation by trying to attack someone else for no reason. My advice to the guy to not worry so much about a vintage amp that he didn't even buy because he was worried about it shocking him wasn't really in the technical nature. So, **** you, **** off and always from now on, expect me to suggest someone else when looking for tubes. m |
|
#59
|
|||
|
|||
|
in article , chetatkinsdiet at
wrote on 11/22/04 9:55 AM: It's not knowing your **** that makes one hated. It's being a total dickhead, knowitall like you that has zero sense of humor that starts a conversation by trying to attack someone else for no reason. My advice to the guy to not worry so much about a vintage amp that he didn't even buy because he was worried about it shocking him wasn't really in the technical nature. So, **** you, **** off and always from now on, expect me to suggest someone else when looking for tubes. m What is it lately with all of the foul tempers on RAT? This NG is more about ****ing contests, not much about tubes . . . Hats off to Patrick, Sander, Fabio et. al who still possess and show a lot of goodwill. (Even Andre is on good behavior!) But posts like the one above . . . Sheesh . . . Sure do miss Fred, and what he represented . . . . Jon |
|
#61
|
|||
|
|||
|
There's been an awful lot of discussion here and few clear answers. I
use a 1965 Fender Vibrolux regulary. It's one of the best sounding amps around to me. When it had the original 2 prong cord I would get shocked on the lips at the mic if the polarity switch was in the wrong position. After having had enough of this I recapped the amp and installed a 3 prong plug and grounded the chassis. Since then no problem. Still, these vintage amps now sell for way to much. I couldn't afford it today. I paid about $400 for it now they sell for at least $1500+. Ther are a lot of new good sounding tube amps to check out that will have better safety built in. I don't know your budget but look at the Fender reissues, Carr, Bogner, VHT. Even a couple of the Peaveys arean't half bad. Use your ears and fingers a buy what works for you. ... I appreciate the time you've taken to respond and some areas are still under discussion. There are too many issues for me to summarize what I've learned but I intend to return and do that at the first of the year. I do think I will keep reading and buy a neon tester and outlet tester to start. My intent was to address the issue and hopefully make someone somewhere think. If I were to stretch for a simple, preliminary conclusion, it would be this: CAUTION: If you want a little amp just for playing at home, and especially if you have children, don't buy a vintage tube amp unless you know what you are doing. That may be stating the obvious but there it is, for now. It may be hard for some to believe, but it's easy to reach this purchase plan when you hear how simple those old point-to-point amps are, so easy to fix that hand-wiring, any repairman can do it, screw those circuit boards... Even portfolio managers are advising clients to diversify into vintage gear so it's a great investment, what are you waiting for, prices are going up as we speak.... Sometimes it's difficult to stand outside the box so I wonder if some of the "veterans" may be a little too cavalier in their approach - but honestly that is to be expected in any field. Maybe I AM being too cautious, maybe I AM thinking too hard on this, but I better figure that out first. My little girl is worth more to me than anything else in the world. I don't mind looking foolish if it is erring on the cautious side - the best advice so far. I sincerely appreciate the time and efforts of all you have responded. Dan |
|
#62
|
|||
|
|||
|
Jon Yaeger wrote: in article , chetatkinsdiet at wrote on 11/22/04 9:55 AM: It's not knowing your **** that makes one hated. It's being a total dickhead, knowitall like you that has zero sense of humor that starts a conversation by trying to attack someone else for no reason. My advice to the guy to not worry so much about a vintage amp that he didn't even buy because he was worried about it shocking him wasn't really in the technical nature. So, **** you, **** off and always from now on, expect me to suggest someone else when looking for tubes. m What is it lately with all of the foul tempers on RAT? This NG is more about ****ing contests, not much about tubes . . . Hats off to Patrick, Sander, Fabio et. al who still possess and show a lot of goodwill. (Even Andre is on good behavior!) But posts like the one above . . . Sheesh . . . Sure do miss Fred, and what he represented . . . . Jon They say you don't really miss someone until he's absent. I hope he's off helping the God of Triodes with his busy matters of thermionic magnitudes. Life is a strange series of experiences, battles, wonderments, victories, defeats, prides, shames, lies and truths. We see our humaness fly past our screens contiually, and tommorrow maybe a bit less angst, bit more calm, and its like the weather. And I wonder how much good it does to have a venue for the insult, the letting off of steam, the ribald attack, the kicking screaming flamer, the defaming bull****ter, the armchair polititian. It all could be therapy. But I am sure that had you gone to ancient cities like Troy, or Athens, Rome, the antics of the blokes would have been similar. This is what we are. Stop to smell the roses, step carefully to avoid the dog ****, Walk watchfully in narrow lanes, you never know what someone will tip out an open window. and that's about all one can do. Patrick Turner. |
|
#63
|
|||
|
|||
|
Adam Stouffer wrote:
bulldog wrote: First of all I didn't sell amps. I repaired them. The owner already knew his amplifier. He knew what to do and not to do. He also knew what he should touch and what not to touch. Old 2 prong tube amps had their safety issues, but the owners accepted that, and continued using them because they liked them. Remember, the type of equipment in question was built long before everybody started seuing everybody else. How did people survive all those years with so many radios having a hot chassis? They seemed safe enough to be sold by the thousands to everyone. What really scares me are resistor cords... Most of those radio and TV sets had wooden chassis and plastic knobs, which kept anyone from directly touching the chassis. Some of them (most notably some notorious GE portable TV sets from the fifties) did not, and some folks occasionally got hurt on those. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
|
#64
|
|||
|
|||
|
chetatkinsdiet wrote: It's not knowing your **** that makes one hated. It's being a total dickhead, knowitall like you that has zero sense of humor that starts a conversation by trying to attack someone else for no reason. My advice to the guy to not worry so much about a vintage amp that he didn't even buy because he was worried about it shocking him wasn't really in the technical nature. So, **** you, **** off and always from now on, expect me to suggest someone else when looking for tubes. m Fine with me, sparky. And from now on, whenever you post ingnorant bull**** like you posted, I'll rub your nose in it. Fair enough? Lord Valve Expert |
|
#65
|
|||
|
|||
|
"Geoff Wood" -nospam said:
Anyway, only pansy lberial commie socialist cry-babies would worry about a healthy dose of mains up the armpit, eh. Good strong christofascists like us can take it no problem. Then you assume Lord Valve is a pansy liberal commie socialist crybaby? BTW congrats on the creative use of language, LMAO! :-) -- Sander de Waal " SOA of a KT88? Sufficient. " |
|
#66
|
|||
|
|||
|
Jon Yaeger said:
What is it lately with all of the foul tempers on RAT? This NG is more about ****ing contests, not much about tubes . . . Hats off to Patrick, Sander, Fabio et. al who still possess and show a lot of goodwill. (Even Andre is on good behavior!) Well, to the credit of Lord Valve, his advice about tubes is always spot-on. His style generates likewise replies, though. Better ignore it. But posts like the one above . . . Sheesh . . . Sure do miss Fred, and what he represented . . . . Speaking about Fred, how about the poetry contest? I still have some prize tubes waiting to ship..... -- Sander de Waal " SOA of a KT88? Sufficient. " |
|
#67
|
|||
|
|||
|
Lord Valve wrote in message ...
*You* have no business handing out safety information. Go practice your scales (or, if you're a rock player, your scale) and leave the tech stuff to the people who know it. Maybe this is one way to help improve the gene pool. Anyway, a high-capacity & cheap islolation xfmr that one can make, maybe even in the ammo box mentioned by another, or at least in a similar safe enclosure, beats the bleep out of using filament xfmrs if real pwr is needed: Salvage the PT's from 2 junked microwave ovens (usually the magnetrons or electronics die leaving a good PT). Don't do this if you are a dumfuk or space cadet because their secondaries are very HV, death guaranteed (more gene pool refinement). Sometimes they are welded up & need to be ground open, but they are free. Connect the HV sec's back-to-back, and either weld their enclosures together, or do the ammo box trick with a chassis-mount 3-wire outlet and be smart about the layout. This will give you a ~ 1kw isolation xfmr for little or no cash. If you get bored with it, it might be used as a small boat mooring(gheavy). |
|
#68
|
|||
|
|||
|
"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
Most of those radio and TV sets had wooden chassis and plastic knobs, which kept anyone from directly touching the chassis. Some of them (most notably some notorious GE portable TV sets from the fifties) did not, and some folks occasionally got hurt on those. This reminds me of a story about some computer installation guys that were pushing some big cabinets around while they were still hooked to power. Two cabinets brushed in passing, there was a really big flash, and it took a crowbar to pry the welded sections apart. |
|
#69
|
|||
|
|||
|
On Mon, 22 Nov 2004 18:13:05 +0100, Sander deWaal
wrote: Then you assume Lord Valve is a pansy liberal commie socialist crybaby? BTW congrats on the creative use of language, LMAO! :-) They get like that in Nieuw Zeeland from hanging upside down all the time, watching the water go down the drain the wrong way. ;-) Brian McAllister PO Box 25910 Sarasota FL 34277-2910 |
|
#70
|
|||
|
|||
|
In article , Dave Curtis
wrote: "markedwane" wrote: A GFCI, snip trips well below the threshold of sensation That's just *not true*. If you grab both the 120v conductor and the neutral of a GFCI-protected circuit, I *guarantee* you will feel something far above the threshold of sensation. Don't try it, please take my word for it. Do NOT rely on a GFCI to open the circuit in time to save your life. It might, but then again, it might not. Yeah, I like to remember the last words of General John Sedgewick at the Battle of Spotsylvania, during the War Between the States: "What are you men jumping around for? They couldn't hit an elephant at this dist -- " Kinda like what Decca Records said about the Beatles in the early sixites, when they turned them down for a recording contract: "We don't like their sound. Groups of guitars are on their way out." Kinda wonder if the guy who said that later jumped of a bridge ... -- Steve |
|
#71
|
|||
|
|||
|
On Mon, 22 Nov 2004 10:09:47 -0800, Steve Perry
wrote: "We don't like their sound. Groups of guitars are on their way out." Kinda wonder if the guy who said that later jumped of a bridge ... "No one will ever need more than four megabytes of ram." - Bill Gates |
|
#72
|
|||
|
|||
|
|
|
#73
|
|||
|
|||
|
|
|
#74
|
|||
|
|||
|
Steve Daniels said:
"No one will ever need more than four megabytes of ram." - Bill Gates Even Billy didn't anticipate the amount of memory Windows needs :-) -- Sander de Waal " SOA of a KT88? Sufficient. " |
|
#75
|
|||
|
|||
|
I'll build you a nice custom hand-wired, point-to-point tubed amp if you
want. I'll even use 50C5s, 35W4s and 12AV6s if that's what you want. Difference is, this one will be safe, using an input power transformer, full-wave rectifiers and push-pull outputs. Just send me the specs, features, and power requirements. Volume knobs only go up to 10, however. |
|
#76
|
|||
|
|||
|
Geoff Wood wrote: Two-prong cords are not the same as 'hot chassis'. You can have a two-prong cord with the chassis still isolated by a mains transformer. This is the crucial point! There is "vintage" and there is "vintage". If your tube lineup is all 6XX and 12XXX, you are OK because these almost certainly have a power transformer isolating the amp from the line. If the tube lineup has things like 50C5, 35W4, numbers like that, the novice should be wary because it is probably a power-transformer-less design and could present a shock hazard in normal operation. -- Fred Gilham Comprehensive Computer Language Preference Survey Do you like Lisp? (Check one) [ ] Yes [ ] Sure [ ] You bet [ ] Yep [ ] Da |
|
#77
|
|||
|
|||
|
|
|
#78
|
|||
|
|||
|
On Mon, 22 Nov 2004 05:48:29 GMT, Adam Stouffer
wrote: Dave Curtis wrote: Isolation transformer. Expensive insurance. Still needs an equipment ground, and the neon tester will still tell you if the outlets are wired right. -Dave As another poster said, an ammo can and two transformers wired back to back. Can't imagine it costing more than $30 if you hit the surplus stores/websites. Adam The tester is about $2 (brand new), and you don't need to wire (or lug around) anything. Sure you *can* make an isolation transformer, but why bother when it's much easier to check your chassis/strings with the tester? That should be done every time you set up *anyway* (even with a PT amp), for safety's sake. Let's say that old amp's "death cap" decides to short out (been known to happen). The isolation tranny won't help you. The $2 tester will. My .02 dB -Dave |
|
#79
|
|||
|
|||
|
That's what i meant. I was typing fast and was thinking hot chassis
and typing 2 prong cord. later, m |
|
#80
|
|||
|
|||
|
Dave Curtis wrote: Let's say that old amp's "death cap" decides to short out (been known to happen). The isolation tranny won't help you. The $2 tester will. If the "death cap" is the cap that isolates the chassis from the B-, then the isolation transformer WILL save you! It *isolates* the amp from the line. There is no electrical reference between the line, either hot or neutral, and the internals of the amp. So if the cap shorts then you now have the chassis at B- potential, but still no reference between the chassis and the line. If you grounded the chassis using a 3-wire plug, then if the cap shorts you'll reference the B- to ground. This is *still* not a hazardous situation. You can compare an isolation transformer to a "wall wart". You can hold the connector end of a typical wall wart without worrying about getting a shock even if you touch your cold water pipe. A wall wart is an isolation tranformer with a little rectifying and filtering circuitry. Some wall warts, the kind with AC output, don't even have that rectifiers and filters; they are only isolation transformers. You don't have to worry about any strange voltages coming from the AC line showing up on the connector of a wall wart. That's what an isolation transformer does. Of course the output of a 120V isolation transformer is still dangerous, but it is an *expected* danger. If the "death cap" shorts, and you've checked your socket rather than install an isolation transformer, then you'll have the chassis at neutral. Great for you. Then you loan your amp out to some bozo who takes it to a club that was wired up by the owner's friends one weekend and your amp ends up killing off the lead singer (the owner's girlfriend) and the drummer. Admittedly not a complete disaster but doubtless a few people are still going to be peeved. -- Fred Gilham I can't escape the sensation that I have already been thinking in Lisp all my programming career, but forcing the ideas into the constraints of bad languages, which explode those ideas into a bewildering array of details, most of which are workarounds for the language. --Kaz Kylheku |
| Reply |
| Thread Tools | |
| Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads
|
||||
| Thread | Forum | |||
| Vintage Amplifiers for Idiots | Tech | |||
| Vintage Amplifiers for Idiots | Pro Audio | |||
| Vintage Amplifiers for Idiots | Pro Audio | |||
| James Randi gets clarified on audio biz | High End Audio | |||
| rec.audio.car FAQ (Part 1/5) | Car Audio | |||
Linear Mode
