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#41
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"Mike Rivers" wrote in message
news:znr1100392879k@trad... A combination of a Fishman pickup of some sort and a small mic mounted inside the guitar. The latest Fishman with no controls, I think it's called Acoustic Matrix, sounds amazing although we had some RFI issues near a TV transmitter and had to downgrade to an earlier, more ordinary sounding version. The newer one sounded great with no mike at all. -- Bob Olhsson Audio Mastery, Nashville TN Mastering, Audio for Picture, Mix Evaluation and Quality Control Over 40 years making people sound better than they ever imagined! 615.385.8051 http://www.hyperback.com |
#43
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(Scott Dorsey) laid this on me:
danny wrote: Thanks for the input. I'll look into those – those names are new to me. I am not sure what you mean buy adding a condenser but if you are writing about a condenser mike as opposed to a built in pickup, then that luxury isn't something I can use for live. I'd love to have the sound but the bother of it won't be worth it, though thanks since you are right about the sound. Do you care what your guitar sounds like? If so, honestly, it's worth the bother to get a mike and use it properly. If you don't, well, get an Ovation. It won't sound very good, but it won't be any trouble at all. --scott It's not the mic in front of the guitar that is important to make this work. It's the guy in back of the board who will make or break this setup. Even the most average SDC on acoustics sound great, about 1,000,000 better than the best pickups, but unfortunately, it isn't always the best option. As with many folks in our shoes, we need to be flexible to account for variances in the situation. If I walk in and the place is set up for acoustic music, and he knows what he's doing, we set up mics and get tones. If the guy strolls in 15 minutes before showtime, looks at my banjo and says "hey, cool ukelele", we plug in. Unfortunately, we do get both. Sean -- There is an old saying that if a million monkeys typed on a million keyboards for a million years, eventually all the works of Shakespeare would be produced. Now, thanks to Usenet, we know this is not true. seans_at_efn.org http://www.efn.org/~seans |
#44
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#46
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I have put a K&K Trinity system (a dual source system) in 2 of my
guitars (Santa Cruz Tony Rice and Martin D-18CW, Clarence White model) and a K&K Western pick-up in a Martin D35. I did a lot of research and found the K&K to be the best pickup for my needs, which is as natural a sound a possible. I want it to sound like the guitar does acoustically, only louder (who doesn't). The K&K sounds very good and I felt beat out the LR Baggs Dual Source and anything Fishman makes, but again this is based on my tastes. On the Santa Cruz I use a Raven Labs pre and on the D-18CW I use the belt clip Pre that comes with the K&K pick-up system. Both sound great, although I prefer the Raven Labs as it is more flexible. K&K has a newer rack mount version of their preamp that is more flexible than the beltclip version. One of the things I like best about the K&K is that you do not have to alter your guitar at all - no holes, etc. Godd luck, Tim T |
#47
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I have put a K&K Trinity system (a dual source system) in 2 of my
guitars (Santa Cruz Tony Rice and Martin D-18CW, Clarence White model) and a K&K Western pick-up in a Martin D35. I did a lot of research and found the K&K to be the best pickup for my needs, which is as natural a sound a possible. I want it to sound like the guitar does acoustically, only louder (who doesn't). The K&K sounds very good and I felt beat out the LR Baggs Dual Source and anything Fishman makes, but again this is based on my tastes. On the Santa Cruz I use a Raven Labs pre and on the D-18CW I use the belt clip Pre that comes with the K&K pick-up system. Both sound great, although I prefer the Raven Labs as it is more flexible. K&K has a newer rack mount version of their preamp that is more flexible than the beltclip version. One of the things I like best about the K&K is that you do not have to alter your guitar at all - no holes, etc. Godd luck, Tim T |
#48
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#49
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#50
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#51
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#52
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"Gary Flanigan" wrote in message om... The Sunrise sounds very nice. What he said. I went through a couple of dozen pickups before I came to the Sunrise. I put it in my guitar around 15 years ago (can that be right???), and it hasn't been out since. And then I bought another one so that I could have a spare. Dave O'Heare oheareATmagmaDOTca |
#53
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"Gary Flanigan" wrote in message om... The Sunrise sounds very nice. What he said. I went through a couple of dozen pickups before I came to the Sunrise. I put it in my guitar around 15 years ago (can that be right???), and it hasn't been out since. And then I bought another one so that I could have a spare. Dave O'Heare oheareATmagmaDOTca |
#54
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Okay, what are typical inductances and DC resistances of wirewound pickups?
What kind of numbers should I expect to see? --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#55
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Okay, what are typical inductances and DC resistances of wirewound pickups?
What kind of numbers should I expect to see? --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#56
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"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
... Okay, what are typical inductances and DC resistances of wirewound pickups? What kind of numbers should I expect to see? In the 5k-6k range for "vintage" sounding single coil Strat p'ups, in the 7k+ range for hotter ones. Humbuckers vary a LOT... I've seen them as low as 7k for the pair of coils, for a really mellow sound, all the way up to 16k for pretty hot ones. This would be for non-active pickups, BTW. P-90-type winds seem to vary a lot also... IIRC 8k-9k is the starting point there, but there's a lot of room on those bobbins for really hot winds. Curious... why do you ask? Neil Henderson |
#57
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"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
... Okay, what are typical inductances and DC resistances of wirewound pickups? What kind of numbers should I expect to see? In the 5k-6k range for "vintage" sounding single coil Strat p'ups, in the 7k+ range for hotter ones. Humbuckers vary a LOT... I've seen them as low as 7k for the pair of coils, for a really mellow sound, all the way up to 16k for pretty hot ones. This would be for non-active pickups, BTW. P-90-type winds seem to vary a lot also... IIRC 8k-9k is the starting point there, but there's a lot of room on those bobbins for really hot winds. Curious... why do you ask? Neil Henderson |
#58
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(Mike Rivers) wrote in message news:znr1100310146k@trad...
In article writes: Why not experiment with a good quality miniature microphone mounted on or in the guitar. Crown and Countryman are popular with guitarists. You'll need a preamp for it, and that's your volume control. I know that this approach has been popular over the last several years (especially in tandem with another type of pickup), but I didn't have much use for it. I had the "Greg Gualtieri" setup in my Gibson J-45: an internal AKG pickup, plus a Sunrise, going through the Pendulum SPS-1 preamp. This is a pretty top-line setup, and even after a lot of experimentation, I never got a sound that I thought was better than a good piezo pickup on its own. Now, this has nothing to do with the quality of Greg's advice or Pendulum equipment (both top-notch): I think it just comes down to the fact that I don't like the sound of the *inside* of my guitar, I like how it sounds on the outside. :-) Seriously, though, I've switched to Highlander piezo pickups on all my instuments, and I always get a good, strong, reasonably accurate sound, without much of the quack that piezos are known for. Obviously, YMMV (to the OP), but think about simpler setups, at least in the beginning. You'll save money, you'll have less stuff to carry with you, and you can always augment your sound with a good external mike when that is necessary or convenient. With some of these multi-source systems, you have no choice but to drag around a fancy outboard preamp, even if you're just doing an open mike or sitting in for a few tunes. I'd look at under-saddle pickups from Highlander, Fishman and Baggs as a good start. They'll be less than $200, and maybe $50 to install. Cheers, Dave (off to the local open mike) |
#59
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(Mike Rivers) wrote in message news:znr1100310146k@trad...
In article writes: Why not experiment with a good quality miniature microphone mounted on or in the guitar. Crown and Countryman are popular with guitarists. You'll need a preamp for it, and that's your volume control. I know that this approach has been popular over the last several years (especially in tandem with another type of pickup), but I didn't have much use for it. I had the "Greg Gualtieri" setup in my Gibson J-45: an internal AKG pickup, plus a Sunrise, going through the Pendulum SPS-1 preamp. This is a pretty top-line setup, and even after a lot of experimentation, I never got a sound that I thought was better than a good piezo pickup on its own. Now, this has nothing to do with the quality of Greg's advice or Pendulum equipment (both top-notch): I think it just comes down to the fact that I don't like the sound of the *inside* of my guitar, I like how it sounds on the outside. :-) Seriously, though, I've switched to Highlander piezo pickups on all my instuments, and I always get a good, strong, reasonably accurate sound, without much of the quack that piezos are known for. Obviously, YMMV (to the OP), but think about simpler setups, at least in the beginning. You'll save money, you'll have less stuff to carry with you, and you can always augment your sound with a good external mike when that is necessary or convenient. With some of these multi-source systems, you have no choice but to drag around a fancy outboard preamp, even if you're just doing an open mike or sitting in for a few tunes. I'd look at under-saddle pickups from Highlander, Fishman and Baggs as a good start. They'll be less than $200, and maybe $50 to install. Cheers, Dave (off to the local open mike) |
#60
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On Wed, 17 Nov 2004 03:05:45 GMT, "Neil Henderson"
wrote: "Scott Dorsey" wrote in message ... Okay, what are typical inductances and DC resistances of wirewound pickups? What kind of numbers should I expect to see? In the 5k-6k range for "vintage" sounding single coil Strat p'ups, in the 7k+ range for hotter ones. Humbuckers vary a LOT... I've seen them as low as 7k for the pair of coils, for a really mellow sound, all the way up to 16k for pretty hot ones. This would be for non-active pickups, BTW. P-90-type winds seem to vary a lot also... IIRC 8k-9k is the starting point there, but there's a lot of room on those bobbins for really hot winds. Just what numbers are those? I doubt they're inductance in Henrys, but they might be DC resistances in ohms, and they could also be self-resonant frequencies in hertz. ISTR reading of 7,000 turns of (rather fine gauge) wire for a pickup, and there's some moderate amount of iron inside the winding (with of course a magnet on the back for "magnetic bias"), if that helps calculate the inductance at all. And of course, increasing turns increases resistance, inductance, and interwinding capacitance, and so lowers the resonant frequency and high-end response (both below and especially above the resonant frequency). Okay, enough of my BS guessing, here are possible pointers to real info: rec.music.makers.builders (some people there wind their own pickups); http://www.stew-mac.com sells pickups, might have tech info on them. Looking now, they even sell PICKUP KITS. Here's a link on pickup winding, scroll to the bottom to see some "typical" specs: http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Electron...5.html#details Curious... why do you ask? My guess is he's got an electric guitar or two, he's taken out the pickups and made measurements, and wonders if these are "typical." Neil Henderson ----- http://mindspring.com/~benbradley |
#61
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On Wed, 17 Nov 2004 03:05:45 GMT, "Neil Henderson"
wrote: "Scott Dorsey" wrote in message ... Okay, what are typical inductances and DC resistances of wirewound pickups? What kind of numbers should I expect to see? In the 5k-6k range for "vintage" sounding single coil Strat p'ups, in the 7k+ range for hotter ones. Humbuckers vary a LOT... I've seen them as low as 7k for the pair of coils, for a really mellow sound, all the way up to 16k for pretty hot ones. This would be for non-active pickups, BTW. P-90-type winds seem to vary a lot also... IIRC 8k-9k is the starting point there, but there's a lot of room on those bobbins for really hot winds. Just what numbers are those? I doubt they're inductance in Henrys, but they might be DC resistances in ohms, and they could also be self-resonant frequencies in hertz. ISTR reading of 7,000 turns of (rather fine gauge) wire for a pickup, and there's some moderate amount of iron inside the winding (with of course a magnet on the back for "magnetic bias"), if that helps calculate the inductance at all. And of course, increasing turns increases resistance, inductance, and interwinding capacitance, and so lowers the resonant frequency and high-end response (both below and especially above the resonant frequency). Okay, enough of my BS guessing, here are possible pointers to real info: rec.music.makers.builders (some people there wind their own pickups); http://www.stew-mac.com sells pickups, might have tech info on them. Looking now, they even sell PICKUP KITS. Here's a link on pickup winding, scroll to the bottom to see some "typical" specs: http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Electron...5.html#details Curious... why do you ask? My guess is he's got an electric guitar or two, he's taken out the pickups and made measurements, and wonders if these are "typical." Neil Henderson ----- http://mindspring.com/~benbradley |
#62
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Ben Bradley wrote:
Just what numbers are those? I doubt they're inductance in Henrys, but they might be DC resistances in ohms, and they could also be self-resonant frequencies in hertz. Ohms. |
#63
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Ben Bradley wrote:
Just what numbers are those? I doubt they're inductance in Henrys, but they might be DC resistances in ohms, and they could also be self-resonant frequencies in hertz. Ohms. |
#64
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Neil Henderson wrote:
"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message ... Okay, what are typical inductances and DC resistances of wirewound pickups? What kind of numbers should I expect to see? In the 5k-6k range for "vintage" sounding single coil Strat p'ups, in the 7k+ range for hotter ones. Humbuckers vary a LOT... I've seen them as low as 7k for the pair of coils, for a really mellow sound, all the way up to 16k for pretty hot ones. This would be for non-active pickups, BTW. P-90-type winds seem to vary a lot also... IIRC 8k-9k is the starting point there, but there's a lot of room on those bobbins for really hot winds. Those sound like impedances and not inductances. I'm not going to ask the impedance because I'm not sure you can model a pickup as being a perfect current source and get anything much useful out of it. Curious... why do you ask? I'm trying to get a sense of what actually happens at the instrument-preamp interface. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#65
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Neil Henderson wrote:
"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message ... Okay, what are typical inductances and DC resistances of wirewound pickups? What kind of numbers should I expect to see? In the 5k-6k range for "vintage" sounding single coil Strat p'ups, in the 7k+ range for hotter ones. Humbuckers vary a LOT... I've seen them as low as 7k for the pair of coils, for a really mellow sound, all the way up to 16k for pretty hot ones. This would be for non-active pickups, BTW. P-90-type winds seem to vary a lot also... IIRC 8k-9k is the starting point there, but there's a lot of room on those bobbins for really hot winds. Those sound like impedances and not inductances. I'm not going to ask the impedance because I'm not sure you can model a pickup as being a perfect current source and get anything much useful out of it. Curious... why do you ask? I'm trying to get a sense of what actually happens at the instrument-preamp interface. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#66
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#67
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#68
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"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message ... Neil Henderson wrote: "Scott Dorsey" wrote in message ... Okay, what are typical inductances and DC resistances of wirewound pickups? What kind of numbers should I expect to see? In the 5k-6k range for "vintage" sounding single coil Strat p'ups, in the 7k+ range for hotter ones. Humbuckers vary a LOT... I've seen them as low as 7k for the pair of coils, for a really mellow sound, all the way up to 16k for pretty hot ones. This would be for non-active pickups, BTW. P-90-type winds seem to vary a lot also... IIRC 8k-9k is the starting point there, but there's a lot of room on those bobbins for really hot winds. Those sound like impedances and not inductances. I'm not going to ask the impedance because I'm not sure you can model a pickup as being a perfect current source and get anything much useful out of it. Curious... why do you ask? I'm trying to get a sense of what actually happens at the instrument-preamp interface. From the Bill Lawrence site, the inductance of a Strat pickup is about 2.3H, a Gibson PAF is about 4.4H and some of the hot "distortion" pickups are about 8H or higher. Combine that with the resistances quoted above, cable capacitance and Miller capacitance from the input tube, and you get an interesting interface indeed. Peace, Paul |
#69
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"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message ... Neil Henderson wrote: "Scott Dorsey" wrote in message ... Okay, what are typical inductances and DC resistances of wirewound pickups? What kind of numbers should I expect to see? In the 5k-6k range for "vintage" sounding single coil Strat p'ups, in the 7k+ range for hotter ones. Humbuckers vary a LOT... I've seen them as low as 7k for the pair of coils, for a really mellow sound, all the way up to 16k for pretty hot ones. This would be for non-active pickups, BTW. P-90-type winds seem to vary a lot also... IIRC 8k-9k is the starting point there, but there's a lot of room on those bobbins for really hot winds. Those sound like impedances and not inductances. I'm not going to ask the impedance because I'm not sure you can model a pickup as being a perfect current source and get anything much useful out of it. Curious... why do you ask? I'm trying to get a sense of what actually happens at the instrument-preamp interface. From the Bill Lawrence site, the inductance of a Strat pickup is about 2.3H, a Gibson PAF is about 4.4H and some of the hot "distortion" pickups are about 8H or higher. Combine that with the resistances quoted above, cable capacitance and Miller capacitance from the input tube, and you get an interesting interface indeed. Peace, Paul |
#70
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I went and played with a guitar that had a K&K set up today. There
were 3 pick ups inside under the bridge but I can't tell you want model it is. I think I will put it in my martin hd28 to try it before I do my other guitar. I thought it sounded very good too. Thanks for the input - the guy at buffalo brothers is going to install it for $175 Thanks Danny Taddei That was probaly the Pure Western you played, since the price of the Trinity was $285.00 when I bought mine a few years back. The difference will be the Trinity comes with the Pure Western Pick-up, internal microphone and preamp, while the Pure Western does not come with the microphone or the preamp. Interestingly enough, I have read numerous times that the pick-up is hot enough without a preamp. That being said, I would still recommend a preamp. Also, K&K have 2 sizes of the Pure Western pick-up elements, based on the size of one's bridge plate. Most people use the regular size which has a hotter output. I have both and the smaller pick-up elements (3) are not as hot, therefore I would recommend going with the standard size if possible. Tim T |
#71
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I went and played with a guitar that had a K&K set up today. There
were 3 pick ups inside under the bridge but I can't tell you want model it is. I think I will put it in my martin hd28 to try it before I do my other guitar. I thought it sounded very good too. Thanks for the input - the guy at buffalo brothers is going to install it for $175 Thanks Danny Taddei That was probaly the Pure Western you played, since the price of the Trinity was $285.00 when I bought mine a few years back. The difference will be the Trinity comes with the Pure Western Pick-up, internal microphone and preamp, while the Pure Western does not come with the microphone or the preamp. Interestingly enough, I have read numerous times that the pick-up is hot enough without a preamp. That being said, I would still recommend a preamp. Also, K&K have 2 sizes of the Pure Western pick-up elements, based on the size of one's bridge plate. Most people use the regular size which has a hotter output. I have both and the smaller pick-up elements (3) are not as hot, therefore I would recommend going with the standard size if possible. Tim T |
#72
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Stock strat pickups are 5.5k to 6.5k ohms. Tele lead pups are around
7k, stock Gibson humbuckers are also around 7-8k resistance. A lot of the new custom pickups are overwound to far beyond this, up to 10-14k. They sound like **** IMO but some people like to clobber the amp imputs. Al On 16 Nov 2004 21:16:02 -0500, (Scott Dorsey) wrote: Okay, what are typical inductances and DC resistances of wirewound pickups? What kind of numbers should I expect to see? --scott |
#73
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Stock strat pickups are 5.5k to 6.5k ohms. Tele lead pups are around
7k, stock Gibson humbuckers are also around 7-8k resistance. A lot of the new custom pickups are overwound to far beyond this, up to 10-14k. They sound like **** IMO but some people like to clobber the amp imputs. Al On 16 Nov 2004 21:16:02 -0500, (Scott Dorsey) wrote: Okay, what are typical inductances and DC resistances of wirewound pickups? What kind of numbers should I expect to see? --scott |
#74
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I would seriously consider a B-Band product, such as the A2.2 system. Very
nice. George Reiswig Song of the River Music |
#75
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I would seriously consider a B-Band product, such as the A2.2 system. Very
nice. George Reiswig Song of the River Music |
#76
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Paul Stamler wrote:
From the Bill Lawrence site, the inductance of a Strat pickup is about 2.3H, a Gibson PAF is about 4.4H and some of the hot "distortion" pickups are about 8H or higher. Combine that with the resistances quoted above, cable capacitance and Miller capacitance from the input tube, and you get an interesting interface indeed. Wow. That explains a lot. I was expecting something in the 1H or less region. That's scary. I gotta do the math, but that's very interesting. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#77
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Paul Stamler wrote:
From the Bill Lawrence site, the inductance of a Strat pickup is about 2.3H, a Gibson PAF is about 4.4H and some of the hot "distortion" pickups are about 8H or higher. Combine that with the resistances quoted above, cable capacitance and Miller capacitance from the input tube, and you get an interesting interface indeed. Wow. That explains a lot. I was expecting something in the 1H or less region. That's scary. I gotta do the math, but that's very interesting. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#78
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"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message ... Neil Henderson wrote: "Scott Dorsey" wrote in message ... Okay, what are typical inductances and DC resistances of wirewound pickups? What kind of numbers should I expect to see? In the 5k-6k range for "vintage" sounding single coil Strat p'ups, in the 7k+ range for hotter ones. Humbuckers vary a LOT... I've seen them as low as 7k for the pair of coils, for a really mellow sound, all the way up to 16k for pretty hot ones. This would be for non-active pickups, BTW. P-90-type winds seem to vary a lot also... IIRC 8k-9k is the starting point there, but there's a lot of room on those bobbins for really hot winds. Those sound like impedances and not inductances. I'm not going to ask the impedance because I'm not sure you can model a pickup as being a perfect current source and get anything much useful out of it. Yes, impedances - sorry, should've said so. Curious... why do you ask? I'm trying to get a sense of what actually happens at the instrument-preamp interface. Weird, wacky **** DeWd. As you can imagine, the type/composition of wire, gauge thereof, as well as the magnet material & strength all play a part, too. Neil Henderson |
#79
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"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message ... Neil Henderson wrote: "Scott Dorsey" wrote in message ... Okay, what are typical inductances and DC resistances of wirewound pickups? What kind of numbers should I expect to see? In the 5k-6k range for "vintage" sounding single coil Strat p'ups, in the 7k+ range for hotter ones. Humbuckers vary a LOT... I've seen them as low as 7k for the pair of coils, for a really mellow sound, all the way up to 16k for pretty hot ones. This would be for non-active pickups, BTW. P-90-type winds seem to vary a lot also... IIRC 8k-9k is the starting point there, but there's a lot of room on those bobbins for really hot winds. Those sound like impedances and not inductances. I'm not going to ask the impedance because I'm not sure you can model a pickup as being a perfect current source and get anything much useful out of it. Yes, impedances - sorry, should've said so. Curious... why do you ask? I'm trying to get a sense of what actually happens at the instrument-preamp interface. Weird, wacky **** DeWd. As you can imagine, the type/composition of wire, gauge thereof, as well as the magnet material & strength all play a part, too. Neil Henderson |
#80
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