Bob Cain asked:
Do you really think that our adversaries here want to
capture the world in the way that Hitler did?

And Neil Henderson asserted:
Yup. They do now... now that they have a taste of it. Maybe they didn't
twenty years ago, but they sure do right now.

There is only one player with the means and the will to capture the
world, and he already has. The United States has more than 1000
militay bases in more than 100 countries spread out all over the
earth. The purpose of this can be debated, but accusing others of
trying to control the world is more than a little silly.
When it comes to fighting for freedom read up on American behaviour in
for instance Latin America and then ponder the question of who, if
anyone, is fighting for freedom. (A google search on for instance "Dan
Mitrione Uruguay" may put some recent events in perspective.)

Nothing of this implies that suicide bombing or any other means of
violence is OK. Two wrongs do not make one right.

There is only one player with the means and the will to capture the
world, and he already has. The United States has more than 1000
militay bases in more than 100 countries spread out all over the
earth. The purpose of this can be debated, but accusing others of
trying to control the world is more than a little silly.

Controlling ..probably..terrorizing...not silly at all. The fact that the US
has military bases all over the world means just that. I don't equate that with
having terrorist cells all over the world. Of course we have interests and we
can make mistakes like anyone. I just wonder how to fight something as basic as
believing we are the devil and must be stopped. It is also interesting that
most of those who disagree with retaliation tactics seem to be those without
strong religious faith themselves..which to mean seems an intersting
perspective from which to attempt to understand a movement whose whole agenda
is based on a faith based doctrine.


John A. Chiara
SOS Recording Studio
Live Sound Inc.
Albany, NY
www.sosrecording.net
518-449-1637

It is also interesting that
most of those who disagree with retaliation tactics seem to be those without
strong religious faith themselves..which to mean seems an intersting
perspective from which to attempt to understand a movement whose whole agenda
is based on a faith based doctrine. BRBR


If you take away religious justifications for things like war or terrorism you
have to hold people accountable for their actions. Gods and "Holy" texts are
handy for justifying all kinds of actrocities.



Joe Egan
EMP
Colchester, VT
www.eganmedia.com

In article ,
(EganMedia) wrote:

It is also interesting that
most of those who disagree with retaliation tactics seem to be those without
strong religious faith themselves..which to mean seems an intersting
perspective from which to attempt to understand a movement whose whole agenda
is based on a faith based doctrine. BRBR


If you take away religious justifications for things like war or terrorism you
have to hold people accountable for their actions. Gods and "Holy" texts are
handy for justifying all kinds of actrocities.


hey watch it Joe , thems is my words
:-)
george

(EganMedia)

If you take away religious justifications for things like war or terrorism
youhave to hold people accountable for their actions. Gods and "Holy" texts
arehandy for justifying all kinds of actrocities.

More likely Joe, take away a religious faith and people replace that with a
political faith. So a disagreement over policy, like beleiving private
organizations do better at social welfare programs and it's not really the
Federal Government's job for example, is labled as a person "hating the poor".
Regardless of whether the person actually was extremely generous in gving of
his resources to charity, they are judged by many on the left as being immoral
because of political disagreements, this is misplaced morality and a typical
disease of many on the left.

I do not think God judges people on political issues of that type.

Will Miho
NY Music & TV Audio Guy
Off the Morning Show! & sleepin' In... / Fox News
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits

ospam (WillStG) wrote in message ...
....
Regardless of whether the person actually was extremely generous in gving of
his resources to charity, they are judged by many on the left as being immoral
because of political disagreements, this is misplaced morality and a typical
disease of many on the left...

And on and on he goes, talking about the diseased left.. Reread the
original post. The U.S. has more military bases over the world than
any other nation. Those bases, along with private firms, protect our
interests by any means necessary, including assasinations, bribery,
propaganda, tampering with elections, etc. Just because most of these
actions are kept out of mainstream media doesn't make it any less
terroristic to the people putting up with it.

Or, as Noam Chomsky says, "If you want to put an end to terrorism,
stop participating in it."

And on and on he goes, talking about the diseased left.. Reread the
original post.

Why? I was talking to Joe, not you.

Will Miho
NY Music & TV Audio Guy
Off the Morning Show! & sleepin' In... / Fox News
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits

In article ,
ospam (WillStG) wrote:



And on and on he goes, talking about the diseased left.. Reread the
original post.

Why? I was talking to Joe, not you.


No, when you post you're talking to everyone. We could do with a little less
talking and a little more listening and thinking.

-Jay
--
x------- Jay Kadis ------- x---- Jay's Attic Studio ------x
x Lecturer, Audio Engineer x Dexter Records x
x CCRMA, Stanford University x http://www.offbeats.com/ x
x-------- http://ccrma-www.stanford.edu/~jay/ ----------x

WillStG wrote:
(EganMedia)

If you take away religious justifications for things like war or terrorism
youhave to hold people accountable for their actions. Gods and "Holy" texts
arehandy for justifying all kinds of actrocities.

More likely Joe, take away a religious faith and people replace that with a
political faith.

So true.. that is exactly why you don't take away faith - you educate away
the need for it.

--
Aaron Borgman HE Design Engineer

JF4-4-C5
phone: 503-712-3212

Disclaimer: All above opinions are mine... not Intel's

WillStG wrote:

(EganMedia)

If you take away religious justifications for things like war or terrorism
youhave to hold people accountable for their actions. Gods and "Holy" texts
arehandy for justifying all kinds of actrocities.

More likely Joe, take away a religious faith and people replace that with a
political faith.

Not true. Not all people need faith in something outside themselves to
feel "whole".

So a disagreement over policy, like beleiving private
organizations do better at social welfare programs and it's not really the
Federal Government's job for example, is labled as a person "hating the poor".

Debating the role of our government in creating and maintaining social
programs is a good thing. If you believe our government is a force for
good, then how can you be against domestic programs that serve those who
are unable to help themselves.
In that case the debate should how to make them free of bureaucratic
inefficiencies.

Regardless of whether the person actually was extremely generous in gving of
his resources to charity, they are judged by many on the left as being immoral
because of political disagreements, this is misplaced morality and a typical
disease of many on the left.

Good one Will, those are the exact sentiments coming from the right
towards government social programs. Its almost always the right that
plays the "morality" card when trying to reduce or stop government
funding of social programs. Misplaced morality characterizes many in the
hard core right as well as hard core left. The majority, as you know,
are more compassionate and support government sponsored social programs.


I do not think God judges people on political issues of that type.

Do you really think you speak for God?

If you take away religious justifications for things like war or terrorism
youhave to hold people accountable for their actions. Gods and "Holy" texts
arehandy for justifying all kinds of actrocities.

My point was that you can't take that away..I know so many wish everyone would
just give it up..but it's not gonna happen. Religious "fanatics" being affected
by someone's wish that they wouldn't believe in what they believe in..is like
hoping criminals won't commit crime because it's illegal. Us wanting our own
leaders to secularize their foreign viewpoints has no effect on a tried and
true terrorist..in any way, shape or form. That's just they way it is.I can't
change it..you can't change it..sorry...this seems an apparent context. I would
entertain others that actually involve the real situations. Not a cause from
half a century ago...or 15 centuries ago.
Thanks,

John A. Chiara
SOS Recording Studio
Live Sound Inc.
Albany, NY
www.sosrecording.net
518-449-1637

If you take away religious justifications for things like war or
terrorism you have to hold people accountable for their actions. Gods and
"Holy" texts are handy for justifying all kinds of actrocities. hey
watch it Joe , thems is my words:-)george

If you can just convince the Taleban.

PS: George..did you sell your K2?


John A. Chiara
SOS Recording Studio
Live Sound Inc.
Albany, NY
www.sosrecording.net
518-449-1637

So true.. that is exactly why you don't take away faith - you educate away
the need for it.


We can't teach kids in this country to spell..what the Hell are you talking
about?


John A. Chiara
SOS Recording Studio
Live Sound Inc.
Albany, NY
www.sosrecording.net
518-449-1637

More likely Joe, take away a religious faith and people replace that
with a
political faith.

Not true. Not all people need faith in something outside themselves to
feel "whole".

Probably not true if looked at closely..most people judge their own lives by
what they create outside of themselves..they might not look at it as
God....things that others can get value from.. or anykind of value that can be
shared...actually a pretty basic teaching of most faiths.


John A. Chiara
SOS Recording Studio
Live Sound Inc.
Albany, NY
www.sosrecording.net
518-449-1637

In article ,
(Blind Joni) wrote:

If you take away religious justifications for things like war or
terrorism you have to hold people accountable for their actions. Gods and
"Holy" texts are handy for justifying all kinds of actrocities. hey
watch it Joe , thems is my words:-)george

If you can just convince the Taleban.

PS: George..did you sell your K2?


yes it went at a pittence beacuse it cost me 13,000$ to prove to the IRS
they owed me 7K instead of me oweing them 30K$
CPA's have a insatiable hunger for money
I have gone digital
A Dm1K has been with me a month
I bet I upgrade to a 2K within the year
Fantastic live desk
unfreakingly believably good
G

Blind Joni wrote:

More likely Joe, take away a religious faith and people replace that
with a
political faith.

Not true. Not all people need faith in something outside themselves to
feel "whole".

Probably not true if looked at closely..most people judge their own lives by
what they create outside of themselves..they might not look at it as
God....things that others can get value from.. or anykind of value that can be
shared...actually a pretty basic teaching of most faiths.


Doesn't this run counter to religious precepts against building one's
life on material values? My understanding of religious beliefs is the
development of an inner (spiritual) dimension, not reliance upon
external (physical) realm, except to meet the needs of a physical
existence. Giving into physical desires is generally viewed as the path
to self destruction (re; seven deadly sins).

If you are looking for validation from an outside source, aren't you
displaying insecurity in yourself?

...actually a pretty basic teaching of most faiths.


Doesn't this run counter to religious precepts against building one's
life on material values?

Not at my church.


My understanding of religious beliefs is the
development of an inner (spiritual) dimension, not reliance upon
external (physical) realm, except to meet the needs of a physical
existence.

And how can you help others with a bare minimal existence?



Giving into physical desires is generally viewed as the path
to self destruction (re; seven deadly sins)

Could be..I'm talking about Vision in something bigger than yourself that can
be created..with or without help.

..

If you are looking for validation from an outside source, aren't you
displaying insecurity in yourself?


Displaying to whom....and whose business is my "insecurity" anyway. This
perspective is prejudicial at best. That guy believes in something that I don't
so he must be insecure? And most..I don't think..look for "validation" from
their faith...hitmen and such might...dunno.
People spend their whole lives seeking validation from others. I don't assume I
am all knowing...farther from that everyday....but rejecting unknowns from the
beginning holds no advantage..IMO.

John A. Chiara
SOS Recording Studio
Live Sound Inc.
Albany, NY
www.sosrecording.net
518-449-1637

ospam (WillStG) wrote in message ...


And on and on he goes, talking about the diseased left.. Reread the
original post.

Why? I was talking to Joe, not you.

That's awesome. This is what it looks like when Will has no argument:
"Even tho I'm posting on a very public newsgroup, I wasn't talking to
you, so stay out of it."

Tough titty, Will, I *was* talking to you. You got a real comment
about what I posted, or about Mr. Chomsky's quote, or what?

Blind Joni wrote:

...actually a pretty basic teaching of most faiths.


Doesn't this run counter to religious precepts against building one's
life on material values?

Not at my church.

I take it your church doesn't subscribe to the accepted tenets of
Christian faith as put forward by St. Paul.


And how can you help others with a bare minimal existence?

It didn't stop Jesus, Mother Teresa and too many more to count.

If you are looking for validation from an outside source, aren't you
displaying insecurity in yourself?


Displaying to whom....and whose business is my "insecurity" anyway. This
perspective is prejudicial at best. That guy believes in something that I don't
so he must be insecure? And most..I don't think..look for "validation" from
their faith...hitmen and such might...dunno.
People spend their whole lives seeking validation from others. I don't assume I
am all knowing...farther from that everyday....but rejecting unknowns from the
beginning holds no advantage..IMO.

You're reading too much into that, my point was, if you're secure in
your beliefs, you don't have a need to look for outside validation.

Not at my church.

I take it your church doesn't subscribe to the accepted tenets of
Christian faith as put forward by St. Paul.


We are encouraged to be successful.


And how can you help others with a bare minimal existence?

It didn't stop Jesus, Mother Teresa and too many more to count.

True, there are many ways to help others.



You're reading too much into that, my point was, if you're secure in
your beliefs, you don't have a need to look for outside validation.



Beliefs in what? A belief kind of implies something outside yourself..or not.
I am constantly changing my view of many things..usually those secure in too
many ways are a little hard to take.
YMMV
John A. Chiara
SOS Recording Studio
Live Sound Inc.
Albany, NY
www.sosrecording.net
518-449-1637

Blind Joni wrote:


You're reading too much into that, my point was, if you're secure in
your beliefs, you don't have a need to look for outside validation.



Beliefs in what? A belief kind of implies something outside yourself..or not.
I am constantly changing my view of many things..usually those secure in too
many ways are a little hard to take.

You're saying you can't believe in yourself? Being secure about your
beliefs goes along with accepting different ideas. It's people who are
insecure are too rigid feel a different point of view is an attack on
them and their beliefs.

I know more than a few Christians that believe any church promoting the
goal of worldly success is in league with Satan. OTOH, there's Rev Ike,
PTL and others who don't deserve a tax exempt status.

Blind Joni wrote:

If you take away religious justifications for things like war or terrorism
youhave to hold people accountable for their actions. Gods and "Holy" texts
arehandy for justifying all kinds of actrocities.


My point was that you can't take that away..I know so many wish everyone would
just give it up..but it's not gonna happen. Religious "fanatics" being affected
by someone's wish that they wouldn't believe in what they believe in..is like
hoping criminals won't commit crime because it's illegal. Us wanting our own
leaders to secularize their foreign viewpoints has no effect on a tried and
true terrorist..in any way, shape or form. That's just they way it is.I can't
change it..you can't change it..sorry...this seems an apparent context.

But we can perhaps shrink the pool of raw material from which "tried and true terrorists" are made.

But we can perhaps shrink the pool of raw material from which "tried and true
terrorists" are made.


Procede please.


John A. Chiara
SOS Recording Studio
Live Sound Inc.
Albany, NY
www.sosrecording.net
518-449-1637

You're saying you can't believe in yourself? Being secure about your
beliefs goes along with accepting different ideas. It's people who are
insecure are too rigid feel a different point of view is an attack on
them and their beliefs.

Let me clarify if I can..I agree with you. I came to my present beliefs
intellectually..so I didn't have a religious experience that converted me...I
have friends.I read..etc. It's because I was flexible and curious that I am
where I am..and I remain so...and I learn something more everyday. I just don't
find a belief in something outside myself to be a hinderance..unless what you
choose to believe in can't be trusted..or if you ask it do do what you are
already able to do for yourself...not with the understanding that I have of it.
John A. Chiara
SOS Recording Studio
Live Sound Inc.
Albany, NY
www.sosrecording.net
518-449-1637

Blind Joni wrote:

You're saying you can't believe in yourself? Being secure about your
beliefs goes along with accepting different ideas. It's people who are
insecure are too rigid feel a different point of view is an attack on
them and their beliefs.

Let me clarify if I can..I agree with you. I came to my present beliefs
intellectually..so I didn't have a religious experience that converted me...I
have friends.I read..etc. It's because I was flexible and curious that I am
where I am..and I remain so...and I learn something more everyday. I just don't
find a belief in something outside myself to be a hinderance..unless what you
choose to believe in can't be trusted..or if you ask it do do what you are
already able to do for yourself...not with the understanding that I have of it.

Sigh, if only more people would keep an open mind toward those who hold
different beliefs. I belong to the "if it works for you, then it works
for you" faith. Now if I can only get a charter membership to the Church
of the Divine Backbeat...

Now if I can only get a charter membership to the Church
of the Divine Backbeat...

and maybe a tax deduction!!

John A. Chiara
SOS Recording Studio
Live Sound Inc.
Albany, NY
www.sosrecording.net
518-449-1637

(Blind Joni) wrote in message ...

It is also interesting that
most of those who disagree with retaliation tactics seem to be those without
strong religious faith themselves...

John A. Chiara

Wow. Somebody needs to tell the Quakers about this. Along with those
amongst the 129,000 hits i got when i googled "anti-war religious
groups".

Interesting indeed.


JF

steve

WillStG wrote:
More likely Joe, take away a religious faith and people replace that with
a
political faith.

Not true. Not all people need faith in something outside themselves to feel
"whole".

This presumes a "need to feel whole" is the only motivation for religous
or political "True beleivers", people also have a need to feel what they are
doing what is right and that they are making a difference in the world. I
don't think you can argue that there are not liberals and leftists who think
their political beliefs alone make them superior to others, intellectually,
morally and culturally, regardless of what they do personally besides talk and
think. And this is what I was refering to when I said replacing religous faith
with a political faith. Not that I think arrogance on the part of the
religious faithful is a good thing either, but I'm pointing out it does cut
both ways.

Debating the role of our government in creating and maintaining social
programs is a good thing. If you believe our government is a force for
good, then how can you be against domestic programs that serve those who
are unable to help themselves.
In that case the debate should how to make them free of bureaucratic
inefficiencies.

I have no problem with debate at all, what I have a problem with is the
moral certainty that only one way of dealing with social problems is ultimately
the moral choice. We can deal with social problems a number of ways besides
Government alone, that is fact, and many sincere people are doing work outside
that box. As it is, the Federal Government cannot account for where Billions
of dollars go every year.

Good one Will, those are the exact sentiments coming from the right towards
government social programs. Its almost always the right that plays the
"morality" card when trying to reduce or stop government funding of social
programs. Misplaced morality characterizes many in the hard core right as well
as hard core left.

Basically everyone wants to help people, how to do it best is the
question. But in my experience it's always the left that wants to claim others
don't want to help anyone at all unless they do it *their* way, I have never
heard that kind of bullying crap over social works elsewhere.

willstg I do not think God judges people on political issues of that
type.

Steve Do you really think you speak for God?

What, you want a Bible story to go with it?

Will Miho
NY Music & TV Audio Guy
Off the Morning Show! & sleepin' In... / Fox News
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits

"WillStG" wrote in message...

What, you want a Bible story to go with it?



Please.... tell me the one about two of everything in a boat.


;-)

More likely Joe, take away a religious faith and people replace that with a
political faith. So a disagreement over policy, like beleiving private
organizations do better at social welfare programs and it's not really the
Federal Government's job for example, is labled as a person "hating the
poor".

....Or if you disagree with the policy of preemption you're labeled
"anti-American".


Joe Egan
EMP
Colchester, VT
www.eganmedia.com

(John Fowler) wrote in message . com...
(Blind Joni) wrote in message ...

It is also interesting that
most of those who disagree with retaliation tactics seem to be those without
strong religious faith themselves...

John A. Chiara


BTW, somebody needs to inform Israel of the "retaliation Vs. faith"
thing, while we're at it. That poor girl that got squished under the
bulldozer is from my home town. But at least she didn't have to live
under that misery for all her life. She only went over there to make a
foolish attempt to do something about the occupation. Oh well,
...........

JF

I
don't think you can argue that there are not liberals and leftists who think
their political beliefs alone make them superior to others, intellectually,
morally and culturally, regardless of what they do personally besides talk
and
think.

No arguement here. I see this more than not. Usually this goes along with an
assumption that everyone agrees with them...funny in large groups.




John A. Chiara
SOS Recording Studio
Live Sound Inc.
Albany, NY
www.sosrecording.net
518-449-1637

WillStG wrote:

I don't think you can argue that there are not liberals and leftists who think
their political beliefs alone make them superior to others, intellectually,
morally and culturally, regardless of what they do personally besides talk and
think. And this is what I was refering to when I said replacing religous faith
with a political faith.

So what, there's the same superior arrogance on the right and among the
religious also.


We can deal with social problems a number of ways besides
Government alone, that is fact, and many sincere people are doing work outside
that box. As it is, the Federal Government cannot account for where Billions
of dollars go every year.

I don't see how trying to shut down government funded social programs is
a solution because the system has flaws. Lets work to fix the flaws.
Kind of how upper class America has abandoned public schools. The
demographics who can influence the system to create real changes has
opted out in favor private sector. Leaving those with less influence,
time and skills to deal with a Byzantine maze to protect the status quo.

This seems to be where class division and class warfare is headed. The
fact the upper class is headed toward aristocracy where they can afford
all the private services the require while at the same time crusading
for reductions in government services the rest of us require. Sadly, so
many middle and lower middle class have bought into the neo-con
rhetoric, they will helped in lowering their own standard of living.

Look at it this way, the cost of higher education is fast becoming out
of reach for the average wage earner, and almost impossible to get a
good paying job without. Health care takes larger chunk of take home pay
since most employers have shifted costs to the workers. Retirement plans
are now mostly worker contribution and stock market busts have wiped out
most gains. Credit balances for consumers are at an all time high. I
expect there will be some hard times ahead for many Americans and little
or no help from the government.


Basically everyone wants to help people, how to do it best is the
question. But in my experience it's always the left that wants to claim others
don't want to help anyone at all unless they do it *their* way, I have never
heard that kind of bullying crap over social works elsewhere.

Really now, that kind of spew is all there is from the self appointed
demi-gods of the neo-con right.

In article ,
(Blind Joni) wrote:

I
don't think you can argue that
there are not(insert political/religious/nationality/race/sex/ of
choice) who think
their beliefs alone make them superior to others, intellectually,
morally and culturally, regardless of what they do personally besides talk
and
think.

No arguement here. I see this more than not. Usually this goes along with an
assumption that everyone agrees with them...funny in large groups.


just a small correction to your statment

Blind Joni wrote:
So true.. that is exactly why you don't take away faith - you educate away
the need for it.


We can't teach kids in this country to spell..what the Hell are you talking
about?

An educated populace... of course I'm beginning to think I'm a bit of a
utopian in that respect.

--
Aaron Borgman HE Design Engineer

JF4-4-C5
phone: 503-712-3212

Disclaimer: All above opinions are mine... not Intel's

We can't teach kids in this country to spell..what the Hell are you talking
about?

An educated populace... of course I'm beginning to think I'm a bit of a
utopian in that respect.

An educated populace is good for providing workers..and obviously
desirable..but if a populace is destined to be at least partially uneducated I
would rather they have faith than not..so I question the wisdom of assuming it
is good to try and educate away peoples yearning for faith. Some might not like
it but I don't see how we could force that view on the masses.


John A. Chiara
SOS Recording Studio
Live Sound Inc.
Albany, NY
www.sosrecording.net
518-449-1637

In article ,
(Blind Joni) wrote:

We can't teach kids in this country to spell..what the Hell are you
talking
about?

An educated populace... of course I'm beginning to think I'm a bit of a
utopian in that respect.

An educated populace is good for providing workers..and obviously
desirable..but if a populace is destined to be at least partially uneducated
I
would rather they have faith than not..so I question the wisdom of assuming
it
is good to try and educate away peoples yearning for faith. Some might not
like
it but I don't see how we could force that view on the masses.

you must mean any faith, not just christian faith, right John?
George

you must mean any faith, not just christian faith, right John?
George

To each his own.


John A. Chiara
SOS Recording Studio
Live Sound Inc.
Albany, NY
www.sosrecording.net
518-449-1637

In article ,
(Blind Joni) wrote:

you must mean any faith, not just christian faith, right John?
George

To each his own.

So christianity,Muslims, all the orential religions, hinduism druidism
and voodoo and
even a completely godless faith in ones self
can have equal respect?
I can abide by that
in fact it is all I ever campagained for
George

Blind Joni wrote:

We can't teach kids in this country to spell..what the Hell are you talking
about?

An educated populace... of course I'm beginning to think I'm a bit of a
utopian in that respect.

An educated populace is good for providing workers..and obviously
desirable..but if a populace is destined to be at least partially uneducated I
would rather they have faith than not..so I question the wisdom of assuming it
is good to try and educate away peoples yearning for faith. Some might not like
it but I don't see how we could force that view on the masses.

Well, there's training, and there's education. Our current primary
school system is still based on industrial society needs. The secondary
education system is tailored to our coporate business models. Almost no
one comes out of primary schools with critical thinking skills, and
fewer and fewer from secondary education.

As far as faith goes, it is the least educated who have the most of it.
Why? Because the ignorant are more easily manipulated through
superstition. The more learned a person becomes, there's less need for
faith than there is for proof based upon fact.

Kind of like the Bible story where Adam and Eve lived in blissful
ignorance until they tasted the fruit of knowledge.