"ys" wrote in message
hlink.net...

"West Wing Audio" wrote in message
...
ys wrote:

We must begin to do things the Right way, following the laws of the
Creator
in all facets if life.

Then we must also avoid women during their menstrual cycles as they are
deemed "unclean." Do you follow this law too?


A holy woman of Judah, a daughter of Zion follows these laws. BUT of
course!
This is our heritage, our safekeeping, our life! In perfect harmony with
Nature! What a question!

----------
But I'm sure you would agree that the law is not related to hygiene.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.

Correction - women who have their periods are NOT shunned.



YS



"West Wing Audio" wrote in message
...
Norma wrote:

"West Wing Audio" wrote in message
...
ys wrote:

We must begin to do things the Right way, following the laws of the
Creator
in all facets if life.

Then we must also avoid women during their menstrual cycles as they
are
deemed "unclean." Do you follow this law too?

How does this relate to cats exactly?

Seems more like a trolling question to me. Norma


In more detail than is warranted for a Thursday afternoon:

1. The astute reader will note that the thread subject line includes
both women AND cats and indeed how the thread discussions have touched
on the nature of both creatures.

2. The astute reader will have already gleaned from YS's postings that
he/she places great importance on Toraic Law - insofar as he/she
understands it - as it relates not just to cats and animals in general
but all of life. Toraic Law dictates that women are to be avoided,
indeed shunned, during their cycles as they are "unclean" by the
author's of the aforementioned Law.

3. My post was an attempt to ascertain whether or not YS was indeed
consistent in his/her approach to Toraic Law and its application to
daily human activities, which include both women AND cats in this
context. As is often the case with such things, the "faithful" (be they
Christian, Jew, Muslim, etc.) are highly selective about which parts of
the Law they choose to abide by or hold sacred.

4. Finally, the astute reader would have put elements 1, 2 and 3
together BEFORE assuming a trolling stance on my part. Such an
assumption is, in fact, erroneous.

Good day.


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"cindys" wrote in message
...

"ys" wrote in message
hlink.net...

"West Wing Audio" wrote in message
...
ys wrote:

We must begin to do things the Right way, following the laws of the
Creator
in all facets if life.

Then we must also avoid women during their menstrual cycles as they
are
deemed "unclean." Do you follow this law too?


A holy woman of Judah, a daughter of Zion follows these laws. BUT of
course!
This is our heritage, our safekeeping, our life! In perfect harmony with
Nature! What a question!

----------
But I'm sure you would agree that the law is not related to hygiene.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.




Not hygiene!

We are holy, fragile with a need to go within. This is our right and duty -
to be set apart to regroup, regenerate and regain strength. As far as I am
concerned it is ~the~ key to a happy, holy relationship between a man and a
woman. What is hidden may only become revealed at its proper time. No
forcing, no hastening - no short cuts - just pure allowance for the natural
cycle of human nature to run its course.

YS




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Norma wrote:

"West Wing Audio" wrote in message
...
ys wrote:

We must begin to do things the Right way, following the laws of the
Creator
in all facets if life.

Then we must also avoid women during their menstrual cycles as they are
deemed "unclean." Do you follow this law too?

How does this relate to cats exactly?

Seems more like a trolling question to me. Norma


In more detail than is warranted for a Thursday afternoon:

1. The astute reader will note that the thread subject line includes
both women AND cats and indeed how the thread discussions have touched
on the nature of both creatures.

2. The astute reader will have already gleaned from YS's postings that
he/she places great importance on Toraic Law - insofar as he/she
understands it - as it relates not just to cats and animals in general
but all of life. Toraic Law dictates that women are to be avoided,
indeed shunned, during their cycles as they are "unclean" by the
author's of the aforementioned Law.

3. My post was an attempt to ascertain whether or not YS was indeed
consistent in his/her approach to Toraic Law and its application to
daily human activities, which include both women AND cats in this
context. As is often the case with such things, the "faithful" (be they
Christian, Jew, Muslim, etc.) are highly selective about which parts of
the Law they choose to abide by or hold sacred.

4. Finally, the astute reader would have put elements 1, 2 and 3
together BEFORE assuming a trolling stance on my part. Such an
assumption is, in fact, erroneous.

Good day.

We must begin to do things the Right way, following the laws of the Creator
in all facets if life.

**** the 'creator', I vote for birth control.
(Mark Steven Brooks/Elaterium Music)

In the blessing given to Noach and his family after the flood, "Be fruitful
and multiply, swarm in the earth and multiply in it" (Bere**** 9:7)

Well, I'm sure the Torah is full of all sorts of wisdom but this particular bit
is anachronistic and we are witnessing the destructive results of over
population. You know what unlimited growth is? Cancer. I suppose if we
followed the Torah, that ALL things should be fruitful and multiply (forests,
animals, insects etc.) then everything would be fine but our reproductive
habits (fueled by religious stupidity, ignorance and infantile male egos) is
literally destroying all life on the planet and we aint far behind.

BTW-I love cats. And people too. That's why I want to see less of them.
(Mark Steven Brooks/Elaterium Music)

Without getting into detail, we have 613 commandments. The
commandment regarding not spaying/neutering is just one of them. We are
judged on the big picture, the good is weighed against the bad. We are not
judged on just one thing. That having been said, religious Jews easily avoid
transgressing this commandment by adopting animals that have already been
spayed or neutered. That way, we are not adding to the animal overpopulation
problem, we are not transgressing a commandment, and we are hopefully
providing a nice home for an animal who needs one.

Yes, that works.
(Mark Steven Brooks/Elaterium Music)

We must begin to do things the Right way, following the laws of the
Creator
in all facets if life.

Then we must also avoid women during their menstrual cycles as they are
deemed "unclean." Do you follow this law too?

How does this relate to cats exactly?

Well, we ARE talking about pussies here are we not?
(Mark Steven Brooks/Elaterium Music)

"West Wing Audio" wrote in message
...
Norma wrote:

"West Wing Audio" wrote in message
...
ys wrote:

We must begin to do things the Right way, following the laws of the
Creator
in all facets if life.

Then we must also avoid women during their menstrual cycles as they
are
deemed "unclean." Do you follow this law too?

How does this relate to cats exactly?

Seems more like a trolling question to me. Norma


In more detail than is warranted for a Thursday afternoon:

1. The astute reader will note that the thread subject line includes
both women AND cats and indeed how the thread discussions have touched
on the nature of both creatures.

2. The astute reader will have already gleaned from YS's postings that
he/she places great importance on Toraic Law - insofar as he/she
understands it - as it relates not just to cats and animals in general
but all of life. Toraic Law dictates that women are to be avoided,
indeed shunned, during their cycles as they are "unclean" by the
author's of the aforementioned Law.

Hey! Listen, you, as the non-astute writer, are totally wrong about this.
So who is doing what? Norma


3. My post was an attempt to ascertain whether or not YS was indeed
consistent in his/her approach to Toraic Law and its application to
daily human activities, which include both women AND cats in this
context. As is often the case with such things, the "faithful" (be they
Christian, Jew, Muslim, etc.) are highly selective about which parts of
the Law they choose to abide by or hold sacred.

4. Finally, the astute reader would have put elements 1, 2 and 3
together BEFORE assuming a trolling stance on my part. Such an
assumption is, in fact, erroneous.

Good day.

"Barry" wrote in message news

What's an Australian Shepherd? Here in Aus we call Alsatian canines "German
Shepherds" but I've never heard of a breed called Australian Shepherd.


Despite the name an Australian Shepherd in an American breed. They
weigh about 45lbs and look somewhat like a BorderCollie. The most
popular coat is "merle". They are quite popular here in Brooklyn, NY.
Great frisbee dogs and very smart like a Border Collie. For more info
http://www.akc.org/breeds/recbreeds/breeds_a.cfm
I like terriers, Rat Terriers.

Paul Gold
www.vinylmastering.net
brooklynphono

"The Department of Defense" wrote in message
.. .

"The Revd Terence Fformby-Smythe" wrote in
message
...
On Wed, 10 Mar 2004 16:20:53 -0500, "Sheena Weston"
wrote:

Why is it that cats generally make better pets for women, where
dogs usually make better pets for men? Of course, there are
always exceptions.

What has this got to do with 'anti-semitism'®?

I got a better question.... Why do you care?

He thinks everything should be about him.

Susan

"cindys" wrote in message
...

"kilikini" wrote in message
...

So, in other words, if you spay or neuter your pet the pet would be
rejected
by God and would not make it into heaven? Am I understanding the belief
correctly?
kilikini
----------
Not exactly. Without getting into detail, we have 613 commandments. The
commandment regarding not spaying/neutering is just one of them. We are
judged on the big picture, the good is weighed against the bad. We are not
judged on just one thing. That having been said, religious Jews easily
avoid
transgressing this commandment by adopting animals that have already been
spayed or neutered. That way, we are not adding to the animal
overpopulation
problem, we are not transgressing a commandment, and we are hopefully
providing a nice home for an animal who needs one.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.



I like your answer, Cindy. Thanks.
kili

"ys" wrote in message
link.net...

"kilikini" wrote in message
...

"ys" wrote in message
hlink.net...

"kilikini" wrote in message
...
Wait a minute, the Torah says that you can't spay or neuter your
pets?



(snip)


If one neutered or spayed an animal without KNOWING beforehand that this
was
considered a sin, then there perhaps will be special lenience. In regards
to
animals being elevated spiritually in the evolution of their spirit to
soul
or not, it has much to do with the care bestowed on the animal by the
human
and how the commandments were adhered to at all given times and how much
loving intention was conveyed at the time (kavannah). It is my personal
belief - though I am sure some one somewhere can find a text to support it
that the heart connection made with the dog or cat in one's care, where
the
love that is given and received in the heart-center, that energy is then
uplifted - as a memory of the animal and this then may enter the realms of
heaven.

Blessings,
Yechidah


I thought that all animals were pure by nature. How can an animal get
*better* in the eyes of the spirit world, because their owner loves them? I
don't understand.
kilikini

"cindys" wrote in message
...

"kilikini" wrote in message
...


So, in other words, if you spay or neuter your pet the pet would be
rejected
by God and would not make it into heaven? Am I understanding the belief
correctly?
kilikini
-----------
I'm sorry. I didn't read your post carefully the first time. I thought you
were asking if *the person* who spays or neuters his pet is going to be
rejected by God. I didn't realize you were asking about *the pet.* In
Judaism, animals are most definitely not the equivalent of humans. Jewish
belief is that after death, Jews are judged according to the way we
conducted our lives, if we kept the commandments, if we sinned, etc.
Animals
obviously are not obligated to keep commandments and are incapable of
sinning. I have never heard of any Jewish beliefs that animal souls go
anywhere after death at all, but if there are Jewish beliefs concerning
this
(that I somehow managed to miss), I can guarantee that the animals would
not
be judged by human standards and would not end up in the same place as
human
souls. I hope your question was intended to be tongue-in-cheek.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.



Actually, I was serious. I'm not Jewish and am very interested in other
faiths. My question was intentional. YS made it sound as if the animal
*itself* would be punished if it were to be neutered or spayed. I'm just
trying to understand. Really!

kilikini

Yeah right. Spaying and neutering is not mutilation. It is being a
responsible human and not adding to the overpopulation problem. I don't care
what religion you are there is no excuse for being irresponsible.

--
Panther TEK: Staying On Top Of All Your Computer Needs!
www.members.cox.net/catprotector/panthertek

Cat Galaxy: All Cats, All The Time!
www.catgalaxymedia.com
"ys" wrote in message
ink.net...
Sorry. Our Torah says NO to mutilations. Specifically castration.

If every human being stepped up to the plate and took responsibility as a
humane human, doing our part in caring for these animals - fully,
lovingly,
with dedication - keeping them within bounds, within the framework of
Torah - the Blueprint for the Universe, there would be ZERO need to use
violence to control and manipulate nature and its laws.

It is PRECISELY when these laws are violated that all hell breaks loose
with
plagues, pestilence and catastrophe.

We must begin to do things the Right way, following the laws of the
Creator
in all facets if life.


YS


"Cat Protector" wrote in message
news:vU14c.1371$wg.1088@okepread01...
I agree on no declawing but no spaying or neutering? That is being
irresponsible if you ask me. Try using your religious lines in a shelter
that is overflowing with animals because either someone failed to spay
and
neuter their animal or simply dumped them there.

--
Panther TEK: Staying On Top Of All Your Computer Needs!
www.members.cox.net/catprotector/panthertek

Cat Galaxy: All Cats, All The Time!
www.catgalaxymedia.com
"ys" wrote in message
hlink.net...

No declawing, no neutering, no spaying - all totally against the
Creator's
wishes. What is expected from us as the stewards of this planet is be
humane, compassionate and caring enough to feed an animal entrusted to
us
before we eat.





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The torah doesn't say it. I think this person is just trying to make excuses
for their thoughtlessness.

--
Panther TEK: Staying On Top Of All Your Computer Needs!
www.members.cox.net/catprotector/panthertek

Cat Galaxy: All Cats, All The Time!
www.catgalaxymedia.com
"kilikini" wrote in message
...
Wait a minute, the Torah says that you can't spay or neuter your pets? Is
this true? Also, in what way is spaying or neutering violent? If a human
female has a hysterectomy, is that against the Torah or violent? I'm not
flaming you or anything, I'm just curious about your views.

Another point I want to make is that not every human being *will* step up
to
the plate. Take my roommate for example. He has a dog and has never
taken
her to the vet for any shots, heartworm prevention or flea or tick
prevention. The man has 4 children that he never sees. He's a waste of a
human being. I'm all for working on society, but there are just too many
lazy, irresponsible people out in the world to make exceptions. So, most
of
us have to take it upon ourselves to neuter or spay our pets. I neutered
my
male dog because my roommate refuses to spay his and we live in a small
apartment. Something had to give.

When *everyone* follows the *rules* - we'll talk. But that will probably
be
way after our current lifetime.

kilikini

"ys" wrote in message
ink.net...
Sorry. Our Torah says NO to mutilations. Specifically castration.

If every human being stepped up to the plate and took responsibility as
a
humane human, doing our part in caring for these animals - fully,
lovingly,
with dedication - keeping them within bounds, within the framework of
Torah - the Blueprint for the Universe, there would be ZERO need to use
violence to control and manipulate nature and its laws.

It is PRECISELY when these laws are violated that all hell breaks loose
with
plagues, pestilence and catastrophe.

We must begin to do things the Right way, following the laws of the
Creator
in all facets if life.


YS


"Cat Protector" wrote in message
news:vU14c.1371$wg.1088@okepread01...
I agree on no declawing but no spaying or neutering? That is being
irresponsible if you ask me. Try using your religious lines in a
shelter
that is overflowing with animals because either someone failed to spay
and
neuter their animal or simply dumped them there.

--
Panther TEK: Staying On Top Of All Your Computer Needs!
www.members.cox.net/catprotector/panthertek

Cat Galaxy: All Cats, All The Time!
www.catgalaxymedia.com
"ys" wrote in message
hlink.net...

No declawing, no neutering, no spaying - all totally against the
Creator's
wishes. What is expected from us as the stewards of this planet is
be
humane, compassionate and caring enough to feed an animal entrusted
to
us
before we eat.





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"kilikini" wrote in message
...

"cindys" wrote in message
...

"kilikini" wrote in message
...


So, in other words, if you spay or neuter your pet the pet would be
rejected
by God and would not make it into heaven? Am I understanding the
belief
correctly?
kilikini
-----------
I'm sorry. I didn't read your post carefully the first time. I thought
you
were asking if *the person* who spays or neuters his pet is going to be
rejected by God. I didn't realize you were asking about *the pet.* In
Judaism, animals are most definitely not the equivalent of humans.
Jewish
belief is that after death, Jews are judged according to the way we
conducted our lives, if we kept the commandments, if we sinned, etc.
Animals
obviously are not obligated to keep commandments and are incapable of
sinning. I have never heard of any Jewish beliefs that animal souls go
anywhere after death at all, but if there are Jewish beliefs concerning
this
(that I somehow managed to miss), I can guarantee that the animals would
not
be judged by human standards and would not end up in the same place as
human
souls. I hope your question was intended to be tongue-in-cheek.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.



Actually, I was serious. I'm not Jewish and am very interested in other
faiths. My question was intentional. YS made it sound as if the animal
*itself* would be punished if it were to be neutered or spayed. I'm just
trying to understand. Really!
----------
Oh! No, the animal would not be punished. In Judaism, God only judges
people.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.

Forget the torah. Spaying and neutering your animals is the correct action.
I would love to see you go down to a shelter and tell them what they are
doing is wrong. It is people like you that are making the rescue of our
feline friends difficult by making an excuse not to do the responsible
thing. I suppose you are also going to say the torah says we should not
punish those who simply dump their feline friends in the street to fend for
themselves? BTW, spaying/neutering is the right thing to do. You can use all
the scipts, sayings or anything from the torah that you want but that
doesn't mean they are correct. I suggest you get with the times. This is
2004 after all.


--
Panther TEK: Staying On Top Of All Your Computer Needs!
www.members.cox.net/catprotector/panthertek

Cat Galaxy: All Cats, All The Time!
www.catgalaxymedia.com
"ys" wrote in message news:jL24c.33678
Please read:

MEANING IN MITZVOT by Rabbi Asher Meir

Each week we discuss one familiar halakhic practice and try to show its
beauty and meaning. The columns are based on Rabbi Meir's Meaning in
Mitzvot
on Kitzur Shulchan Arukh.

Spaying animals

The spaying of animals, in order to prevent undesired reproduction or in
order to make them more docile, is an ancient custom of animal husbandry,
but it is one which is forbidden by the Torah. The Torah teaches this
prohibition in two different places, each one with its message.
In the blessing given to Noach and his family after the flood, "Be
fruitful
and multiply, swarm in the earth and multiply in it" (Bere**** 9:7), our
Sages discerned an implication that spaying of animals is improper for all
mankind (Sanhedrin 57a). The basis of this admonition is clearly the fact
that spaying interferes with HaShem's desire that the world should be
filled
with a multiplicity of living things. Here the consideration is a
quantitative one.
However, the Torah also contains a prohibition on spaying for the Jewish
people. In enumeration the animals which are blemished and unfit for
sacrifices, the Torah tells us (Vayikra 22:24) "And an animal which is
maimed or crushed or disconnected or severed [in his reproductive organs]
do
not offer to HaShem", and then adds "and don't do this in your land",
meaning that we should not create such a blemish (Shabbat 110b).
Here the emphasis is not on the consequences for the world, but rather the
consequences for this particular animal. The blemish in a sacrifice is not
due to the fact that the animal will not reproduce, because the animal is
being slaughtered anyway. Rather, the admonition not to spay seems to be
directed at the loss for the individual. Each individual creature is
unique,
and its ability to transmit its own unique characteristics to offspring is
an essential part of its character and potential. Even if the world will
swarm with sheep just as before, this individual ram is deficient if he
lacks the potential to perpetuate his special traits in the next
generation.
This distinction between the general mission of mankind and the particular
mission of the Jewish people is found in other places as well. For
instance,
in our column on Vayikra 5761 we saw the explanation of Rav Nachman of
Breslav, that for all mankind ownership and possession has utilitarian
value, but for the Jewish people ownership also ideally involves a special
sensitivity to the unique role of each object in the chain of Divine
providence.
All of mankind is charged with perfecting the world, both materially and
spiritually. But the mission of mankind as a whole is more instrumental,
focusing on principles which create a better world. It is the Jewish
people
who are particularly commanded to find the holiness and potential in each
individual aspect of creation, "so that none of them may be rejected" from
the realm of holiness. (See Shmuel II 14:14.)


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
----

Rabbi Meir has completed writing a monumental companion to Kitzur Shulchan
Aruch which beautifully presents the meanings in our mitzvot and halacha.
It
will hopefully be published in the near future.

Rabbi Meir authors a popular weekly on-line Q&A column, "The Jewish
Ethicist", which gives Jewish guidance on everyday ethical dilemmas in the
workplace. The column is a joint project of the JCT Center for Business
Ethics, Jerusalem College of Technology - Machon Lev; and Aish HaTorah.
You
can see the Jewish Ethicist, and submit your own questions, at
www.jewishethicist.com or at www.aish.com.







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I do not judge others myself. BTW, I myself am Jewish and when I adopted my
cat Isis it was a requirement to have her spayed. I was all for it. I am
still for spaying/neutering. I do not see it as mutilation. I see at as a
necessity to prevent overpopulation. I think the OP needs to volunteer at a
shelter around kitten season when cats are dumped off at record numbers.
Some them even have kittens. Spaying/neutering is the responsible thing.

--
Panther TEK: Staying On Top Of All Your Computer Needs!
www.members.cox.net/catprotector/panthertek

Cat Galaxy: All Cats, All The Time!
www.catgalaxymedia.com
"cindys" wrote in message
...

Not exactly. Without getting into detail, we have 613 commandments. The
commandment regarding not spaying/neutering is just one of them. We are
judged on the big picture, the good is weighed against the bad. We are not
judged on just one thing. That having been said, religious Jews easily
avoid
transgressing this commandment by adopting animals that have already been
spayed or neutered. That way, we are not adding to the animal
overpopulation
problem, we are not transgressing a commandment, and we are hopefully
providing a nice home for an animal who needs one.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.

I have a belief in the metaphysical despite being Jewish. I believe cats
have souls and spend much time on the astral plane. I am sure this ys person
will probably say Jews are not allowed to be metaphysical and that is a sin
to believe cats have souls. Good thing I was born Reform because many of us
don't follow the rules of Jewish law.

--
Panther TEK: Staying On Top Of All Your Computer Needs!
www.members.cox.net/catprotector/panthertek

Cat Galaxy: All Cats, All The Time!
www.catgalaxymedia.com
"kilikini" wrote in message
...
I thought that all animals were pure by nature. How can an animal get
*better* in the eyes of the spirit world, because their owner loves them?
I
don't understand.
kilikini

Plenty of men try to do this. I know I make myself scarce during this cycle
so I do not incur the wrath of the woman.

--
Panther TEK: Staying On Top Of All Your Computer Needs!
www.members.cox.net/catprotector/panthertek

Cat Galaxy: All Cats, All The Time!
www.catgalaxymedia.com
"West Wing Audio" wrote in message
...

Then we must also avoid women during their menstrual cycles as they are
deemed "unclean." Do you follow this law too?

And this has to do with cats how?

--
Panther TEK: Staying On Top Of All Your Computer Needs!
www.members.cox.net/catprotector/panthertek

Cat Galaxy: All Cats, All The Time!
www.catgalaxymedia.com
"ys" wrote in message
link.net...
Correction - women who have their periods are NOT shunned.



YS



"West Wing Audio" wrote in message
...
Norma wrote:

"West Wing Audio" wrote in message
...
ys wrote:

We must begin to do things the Right way, following the laws of
the
Creator
in all facets if life.

Then we must also avoid women during their menstrual cycles as they
are
deemed "unclean." Do you follow this law too?

How does this relate to cats exactly?

Seems more like a trolling question to me. Norma


In more detail than is warranted for a Thursday afternoon:

1. The astute reader will note that the thread subject line includes
both women AND cats and indeed how the thread discussions have touched
on the nature of both creatures.

2. The astute reader will have already gleaned from YS's postings that
he/she places great importance on Toraic Law - insofar as he/she
understands it - as it relates not just to cats and animals in general
but all of life. Toraic Law dictates that women are to be avoided,
indeed shunned, during their cycles as they are "unclean" by the
author's of the aforementioned Law.

3. My post was an attempt to ascertain whether or not YS was indeed
consistent in his/her approach to Toraic Law and its application to
daily human activities, which include both women AND cats in this
context. As is often the case with such things, the "faithful" (be they
Christian, Jew, Muslim, etc.) are highly selective about which parts of
the Law they choose to abide by or hold sacred.

4. Finally, the astute reader would have put elements 1, 2 and 3
together BEFORE assuming a trolling stance on my part. Such an
assumption is, in fact, erroneous.

Good day.


---
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Most Jews I am sure spay and neuter their animals. I bet the OP probably
feels a lot of us who do the responsible thing will also not get a ticket
into heaven. I am also willing to bet that he/she would not be quoting the
torah if their own life was at risk and they needed an operation. Yes,
that's right you may need to cut your flesh to save your own life. I suppose
you'd let yourself or someone else die in order to stick to the belief of no
cutting the flesh?

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"kilikini" wrote in message
...

So, in other words, if you spay or neuter your pet the pet would be
rejected
by God and would not make it into heaven? Am I understanding the belief
correctly?
kilikini

"kilikini" wrote in message
...

"ys" wrote in message
link.net...

"kilikini" wrote in message
...

"ys" wrote in message
hlink.net...

"kilikini" wrote in message
...
Wait a minute, the Torah says that you can't spay or neuter your
pets?



(snip)


If one neutered or spayed an animal without KNOWING beforehand that this
was
considered a sin, then there perhaps will be special lenience. In
regards
to
animals being elevated spiritually in the evolution of their spirit to
soul
or not, it has much to do with the care bestowed on the animal by the
human
and how the commandments were adhered to at all given times and how much
loving intention was conveyed at the time (kavannah). It is my personal
belief - though I am sure some one somewhere can find a text to support
it
that the heart connection made with the dog or cat in one's care, where
the
love that is given and received in the heart-center, that energy is then
uplifted - as a memory of the animal and this then may enter the realms
of
heaven.

Blessings,
Yechidah


I thought that all animals were pure by nature. How can an animal get
*better* in the eyes of the spirit world, because their owner loves them?



What is purity?


YS





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cindys wrote in message
...

Actually, I was serious. I'm not Jewish and am very interested in other
faiths. My question was intentional. YS made it sound as if the animal
*itself* would be punished if it were to be neutered or spayed. I'm
just
trying to understand. Really!
----------
Oh! No, the animal would not be punished. In Judaism, God only judges
people.

On the other hand, I read in Leviticus that in the case of the abomination
of sexual relations between a human and an animal, the human is condemned to
death, and so is the animal. I understand that this isn't God judging the
animal and condemning it, but nonetheless it always struck me as unfair to a
creature who is not capable of understanding the law.

Peace,
Paul

I think basing your life around a book,and some of it's outdated rules, that
are 5000 years old is a little strange.
Remeber when Galileo said the earth was not the center of the universe?
I'll say it again:
God's biggest joke on Man is Sex,
Man's biggest joke on God is Religion.

Tom





"ys" wrote in message
hlink.net...

"kilikini" wrote in message
...
Wait a minute, the Torah says that you can't spay or neuter your pets?


Please read:

MEANING IN MITZVOT by Rabbi Asher Meir

Each week we discuss one familiar halakhic practice and try to show its
beauty and meaning. The columns are based on Rabbi Meir's Meaning in
Mitzvot
on Kitzur Shulchan Arukh.

Spaying animals

The spaying of animals, in order to prevent undesired reproduction or in
order to make them more docile, is an ancient custom of animal husbandry,
but it is one which is forbidden by the Torah. The Torah teaches this
prohibition in two different places, each one with its message.
In the blessing given to Noach and his family after the flood, "Be
fruitful
and multiply, swarm in the earth and multiply in it" (Bere**** 9:7), our
Sages discerned an implication that spaying of animals is improper for all
mankind (Sanhedrin 57a). The basis of this admonition is clearly the fact
that spaying interferes with HaShem's desire that the world should be
filled
with a multiplicity of living things. Here the consideration is a
quantitative one.
However, the Torah also contains a prohibition on spaying for the Jewish
people. In enumeration the animals which are blemished and unfit for
sacrifices, the Torah tells us (Vayikra 22:24) "And an animal which is
maimed or crushed or disconnected or severed [in his reproductive organs]
do
not offer to HaShem", and then adds "and don't do this in your land",
meaning that we should not create such a blemish (Shabbat 110b).
Here the emphasis is not on the consequences for the world, but rather the
consequences for this particular animal. The blemish in a sacrifice is not
due to the fact that the animal will not reproduce, because the animal is
being slaughtered anyway. Rather, the admonition not to spay seems to be
directed at the loss for the individual. Each individual creature is
unique,
and its ability to transmit its own unique characteristics to offspring is
an essential part of its character and potential. Even if the world will
swarm with sheep just as before, this individual ram is deficient if he
lacks the potential to perpetuate his special traits in the next
generation.
This distinction between the general mission of mankind and the particular
mission of the Jewish people is found in other places as well. For
instance,
in our column on Vayikra 5761 we saw the explanation of Rav Nachman of
Breslav, that for all mankind ownership and possession has utilitarian
value, but for the Jewish people ownership also ideally involves a special
sensitivity to the unique role of each object in the chain of Divine
providence.
All of mankind is charged with perfecting the world, both materially and
spiritually. But the mission of mankind as a whole is more instrumental,
focusing on principles which create a better world. It is the Jewish
people
who are particularly commanded to find the holiness and potential in each
individual aspect of creation, "so that none of them may be rejected" from
the realm of holiness. (See Shmuel II 14:14.)


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
----

Rabbi Meir has completed writing a monumental companion to Kitzur Shulchan
Aruch which beautifully presents the meanings in our mitzvot and halacha.
It
will hopefully be published in the near future.

Rabbi Meir authors a popular weekly on-line Q&A column, "The Jewish
Ethicist", which gives Jewish guidance on everyday ethical dilemmas in the
workplace. The column is a joint project of the JCT Center for Business
Ethics, Jerusalem College of Technology - Machon Lev; and Aish HaTorah.
You
can see the Jewish Ethicist, and submit your own questions, at
www.jewishethicist.com or at www.aish.com.







---
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Ivory Snow?

Tom

"ys" wrote in message
hlink.net...

"kilikini" wrote in message
...

"ys" wrote in message
link.net...

"kilikini" wrote in message
...

"ys" wrote in message
hlink.net...

"kilikini" wrote in message
...
Wait a minute, the Torah says that you can't spay or neuter your
pets?



(snip)


If one neutered or spayed an animal without KNOWING beforehand that
this
was
considered a sin, then there perhaps will be special lenience. In
regards
to
animals being elevated spiritually in the evolution of their spirit to
soul
or not, it has much to do with the care bestowed on the animal by the
human
and how the commandments were adhered to at all given times and how
much
loving intention was conveyed at the time (kavannah). It is my
personal
belief - though I am sure some one somewhere can find a text to
support
it
that the heart connection made with the dog or cat in one's care,
where
the
love that is given and received in the heart-center, that energy is
then
uplifted - as a memory of the animal and this then may enter the
realms
of
heaven.

Blessings,
Yechidah


I thought that all animals were pure by nature. How can an animal get
*better* in the eyes of the spirit world, because their owner loves
them?



What is purity?


YS





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Have you ever heard of the Kabbalah?
Tom

"Cat Protector" wrote in message
news:Foa4c.1524$wg.184@okepread01...
I have a belief in the metaphysical despite being Jewish. I believe cats
have souls and spend much time on the astral plane. I am sure this ys
person
will probably say Jews are not allowed to be metaphysical and that is a
sin
to believe cats have souls. Good thing I was born Reform because many of
us
don't follow the rules of Jewish law.

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"kilikini" wrote in message
...
I thought that all animals were pure by nature. How can an animal get
*better* in the eyes of the spirit world, because their owner loves
them?
I
don't understand.
kilikini

"Cat Protector" wrote in message
news:6la4c.1513$wg.305@okepread01...

I do not judge others myself. BTW, I myself am Jewish and when I adopted
my
cat Isis it was a requirement to have her spayed. I was all for it. I am
still for spaying/neutering. I do not see it as mutilation.

The torah is not open to individual interpretation, and the fact remains
that for a Jew to spay or neuter is a torah transgression. The mitzvos do
not apply to non-Jews, and therefore the torah would not find it problematic
for a non-Jew to spay or neuter.

I see at as a
necessity to prevent overpopulation.

There is a way around it, as I outlined.

1. Jews should limit themselves to animals which are already spayed or
neutered. In many cases, this means adopting an older animal rather than a
kitten, which is in and of itself a wonderful thing to do, since older
animals are harder to place in homes.

2. Not adopt animals at all. And for the record, most observant Jews tend to
not have pets at all.

I think the OP needs to volunteer at a
shelter around kitten season when cats are dumped off at record numbers.

This would not change the fact that Jews are prohibited by the torah from
spaying and neutering animals.

Some them even have kittens. Spaying/neutering is the responsible thing.

I am a former volunteer for an animal rescue organization. I have had a
number of *foster* cats in my home, one of whom was a pregnant cat that
someone had dumped off at a shelter. I fostered her through the remainder of
her pregnancy and the birth of her 4 kittens. They stayed with me until the
kittens were weaned. I still have the mother (she was spayed under the
auspices of the rescue agency before I took permanent possession of her). I
know firsthand about the problems of dog and cat overpopulation. The number
of animals being killed in shelters every year is a travesty. But no one
here is arguing that animals should not be spayed or neutered, only that it
is a torah transgression for Jews can't do so. So, therefore, Jews should
adopt older animals that have already been spayed or neutered or not adopt
at all.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.





--
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Cat Galaxy: All Cats, All The Time!
www.catgalaxymedia.com
"cindys" wrote in message
...

Not exactly. Without getting into detail, we have 613 commandments. The
commandment regarding not spaying/neutering is just one of them. We are
judged on the big picture, the good is weighed against the bad. We are
not
judged on just one thing. That having been said, religious Jews easily
avoid
transgressing this commandment by adopting animals that have already
been
spayed or neutered. That way, we are not adding to the animal
overpopulation
problem, we are not transgressing a commandment, and we are hopefully
providing a nice home for an animal who needs one.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.

"Paul Stamler" wrote in message
...
cindys wrote in message
...

Actually, I was serious. I'm not Jewish and am very interested in
other
faiths. My question was intentional. YS made it sound as if the
animal
*itself* would be punished if it were to be neutered or spayed. I'm
just
trying to understand. Really!
----------
Oh! No, the animal would not be punished. In Judaism, God only judges
people.

On the other hand, I read in Leviticus that in the case of the abomination
of sexual relations between a human and an animal, the human is condemned
to
death, and so is the animal. I understand that this isn't God judging the
animal and condemning it, but nonetheless it always struck me as unfair to
a
creature who is not capable of understanding the law.
----------
An animal that has killed someone is also put to death. In both cases, the
torah commandment is for humans to kill the animal. This is quite different
from the animals' being the recipient of post-death divine retribution from
God, which I believe was the other poster's question.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.

I think the torah is very much open to individual interpretation. Last time
I checked we're all apart of humanity. I don't believe in limits. Why should
I be bound by the rules of the torah? This is 2004. Not the days of Moses.

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Cat Galaxy: All Cats, All The Time!
www.catgalaxymedia.com
"cindys" wrote in message
...

The torah is not open to individual interpretation, and the fact remains
that for a Jew to spay or neuter is a torah transgression. The mitzvos do
not apply to non-Jews, and therefore the torah would not find it
problematic
for a non-Jew to spay or neuter.

I see at as a
necessity to prevent overpopulation.

There is a way around it, as I outlined.

1. Jews should limit themselves to animals which are already spayed or
neutered. In many cases, this means adopting an older animal rather than a
kitten, which is in and of itself a wonderful thing to do, since older
animals are harder to place in homes.

2. Not adopt animals at all. And for the record, most observant Jews tend
to
not have pets at all.

I think the OP needs to volunteer at a
shelter around kitten season when cats are dumped off at record numbers.

This would not change the fact that Jews are prohibited by the torah from
spaying and neutering animals.

Some them even have kittens. Spaying/neutering is the responsible thing.

I am a former volunteer for an animal rescue organization. I have had a
number of *foster* cats in my home, one of whom was a pregnant cat that
someone had dumped off at a shelter. I fostered her through the remainder
of
her pregnancy and the birth of her 4 kittens. They stayed with me until
the
kittens were weaned. I still have the mother (she was spayed under the
auspices of the rescue agency before I took permanent possession of her).
I
know firsthand about the problems of dog and cat overpopulation. The
number
of animals being killed in shelters every year is a travesty. But no one
here is arguing that animals should not be spayed or neutered, only that
it
is a torah transgression for Jews can't do so. So, therefore, Jews should
adopt older animals that have already been spayed or neutered or not adopt
at all.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.





--
Panther TEK: Staying On Top Of All Your Computer Needs!
www.members.cox.net/catprotector/panthertek

Cat Galaxy: All Cats, All The Time!
www.catgalaxymedia.com
"cindys" wrote in message
...

Not exactly. Without getting into detail, we have 613 commandments.
The
commandment regarding not spaying/neutering is just one of them. We
are
judged on the big picture, the good is weighed against the bad. We are
not
judged on just one thing. That having been said, religious Jews easily
avoid
transgressing this commandment by adopting animals that have already
been
spayed or neutered. That way, we are not adding to the animal
overpopulation
problem, we are not transgressing a commandment, and we are hopefully
providing a nice home for an animal who needs one.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.

Yes, I have but I do not follow it.

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www.catgalaxymedia.com
"Tommy B" wrote in message
link.net...
Have you ever heard of the Kabbalah?
Tom

Well I don't base my life around the torah. Being Jewish is cool but I am
also a human being and thus must make my own choices in life.

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Cat Galaxy: All Cats, All The Time!
www.catgalaxymedia.com
"Tommy B" wrote in message
hlink.net...
I think basing your life around a book,and some of it's outdated rules,
that
are 5000 years old is a little strange.
Remeber when Galileo said the earth was not the center of the universe?
I'll say it again:
God's biggest joke on Man is Sex,
Man's biggest joke on God is Religion.

Tom





"ys" wrote in message
hlink.net...

"kilikini" wrote in message
...
Wait a minute, the Torah says that you can't spay or neuter your pets?


Please read:

MEANING IN MITZVOT by Rabbi Asher Meir

Each week we discuss one familiar halakhic practice and try to show its
beauty and meaning. The columns are based on Rabbi Meir's Meaning in
Mitzvot
on Kitzur Shulchan Arukh.

Spaying animals

The spaying of animals, in order to prevent undesired reproduction or in
order to make them more docile, is an ancient custom of animal
husbandry,
but it is one which is forbidden by the Torah. The Torah teaches this
prohibition in two different places, each one with its message.
In the blessing given to Noach and his family after the flood, "Be
fruitful
and multiply, swarm in the earth and multiply in it" (Bere**** 9:7), our
Sages discerned an implication that spaying of animals is improper for
all
mankind (Sanhedrin 57a). The basis of this admonition is clearly the
fact
that spaying interferes with HaShem's desire that the world should be
filled
with a multiplicity of living things. Here the consideration is a
quantitative one.
However, the Torah also contains a prohibition on spaying for the Jewish
people. In enumeration the animals which are blemished and unfit for
sacrifices, the Torah tells us (Vayikra 22:24) "And an animal which is
maimed or crushed or disconnected or severed [in his reproductive
organs]
do
not offer to HaShem", and then adds "and don't do this in your land",
meaning that we should not create such a blemish (Shabbat 110b).
Here the emphasis is not on the consequences for the world, but rather
the
consequences for this particular animal. The blemish in a sacrifice is
not
due to the fact that the animal will not reproduce, because the animal
is
being slaughtered anyway. Rather, the admonition not to spay seems to be
directed at the loss for the individual. Each individual creature is
unique,
and its ability to transmit its own unique characteristics to offspring
is
an essential part of its character and potential. Even if the world will
swarm with sheep just as before, this individual ram is deficient if he
lacks the potential to perpetuate his special traits in the next
generation.
This distinction between the general mission of mankind and the
particular
mission of the Jewish people is found in other places as well. For
instance,
in our column on Vayikra 5761 we saw the explanation of Rav Nachman of
Breslav, that for all mankind ownership and possession has utilitarian
value, but for the Jewish people ownership also ideally involves a
special
sensitivity to the unique role of each object in the chain of Divine
providence.
All of mankind is charged with perfecting the world, both materially and
spiritually. But the mission of mankind as a whole is more instrumental,
focusing on principles which create a better world. It is the Jewish
people
who are particularly commanded to find the holiness and potential in
each
individual aspect of creation, "so that none of them may be rejected"
from
the realm of holiness. (See Shmuel II 14:14.)



--------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
----

Rabbi Meir has completed writing a monumental companion to Kitzur
Shulchan
Aruch which beautifully presents the meanings in our mitzvot and
halacha.
It
will hopefully be published in the near future.

Rabbi Meir authors a popular weekly on-line Q&A column, "The Jewish
Ethicist", which gives Jewish guidance on everyday ethical dilemmas in
the
workplace. The column is a joint project of the JCT Center for Business
Ethics, Jerusalem College of Technology - Machon Lev; and Aish HaTorah.
You
can see the Jewish Ethicist, and submit your own questions, at
www.jewishethicist.com or at www.aish.com.







---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.600 / Virus Database: 381 - Release Date: 2/28/04

"ys" wrote in message .
Sorry. Our Torah says NO to mutilations.


Circumsicion seems like a notable exceptiion to the rule.

"Tommy B" wrote in message
hlink.net...
I think basing your life around a book


Thanks for your thoughts, though maybe not all thoughts should be made
public domain.



YS







"ys" wrote in message
hlink.net...

"kilikini" wrote in message
...
Wait a minute, the Torah says that you can't spay or neuter your pets?


Please read:

MEANING IN MITZVOT by Rabbi Asher Meir

Each week we discuss one familiar halakhic practice and try to show its
beauty and meaning. The columns are based on Rabbi Meir's Meaning in
Mitzvot
on Kitzur Shulchan Arukh.

Spaying animals

The spaying of animals, in order to prevent undesired reproduction or in
order to make them more docile, is an ancient custom of animal
husbandry,
but it is one which is forbidden by the Torah. The Torah teaches this
prohibition in two different places, each one with its message.
In the blessing given to Noach and his family after the flood, "Be
fruitful
and multiply, swarm in the earth and multiply in it" (Bere**** 9:7), our
Sages discerned an implication that spaying of animals is improper for
all
mankind (Sanhedrin 57a). The basis of this admonition is clearly the
fact
that spaying interferes with HaShem's desire that the world should be
filled
with a multiplicity of living things. Here the consideration is a
quantitative one.
However, the Torah also contains a prohibition on spaying for the Jewish
people. In enumeration the animals which are blemished and unfit for
sacrifices, the Torah tells us (Vayikra 22:24) "And an animal which is
maimed or crushed or disconnected or severed [in his reproductive
organs]
do
not offer to HaShem", and then adds "and don't do this in your land",
meaning that we should not create such a blemish (Shabbat 110b).
Here the emphasis is not on the consequences for the world, but rather
the
consequences for this particular animal. The blemish in a sacrifice is
not
due to the fact that the animal will not reproduce, because the animal
is
being slaughtered anyway. Rather, the admonition not to spay seems to be
directed at the loss for the individual. Each individual creature is
unique,
and its ability to transmit its own unique characteristics to offspring
is
an essential part of its character and potential. Even if the world will
swarm with sheep just as before, this individual ram is deficient if he
lacks the potential to perpetuate his special traits in the next
generation.
This distinction between the general mission of mankind and the
particular
mission of the Jewish people is found in other places as well. For
instance,
in our column on Vayikra 5761 we saw the explanation of Rav Nachman of
Breslav, that for all mankind ownership and possession has utilitarian
value, but for the Jewish people ownership also ideally involves a
special
sensitivity to the unique role of each object in the chain of Divine
providence.
All of mankind is charged with perfecting the world, both materially and
spiritually. But the mission of mankind as a whole is more instrumental,
focusing on principles which create a better world. It is the Jewish
people
who are particularly commanded to find the holiness and potential in
each
individual aspect of creation, "so that none of them may be rejected"
from
the realm of holiness. (See Shmuel II 14:14.)



--------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
----

Rabbi Meir has completed writing a monumental companion to Kitzur
Shulchan
Aruch which beautifully presents the meanings in our mitzvot and halacha
..
It
will hopefully be published in the near future.

Rabbi Meir authors a popular weekly on-line Q&A column, "The Jewish
Ethicist", which gives Jewish guidance on everyday ethical dilemmas in
the
workplace. The column is a joint project of the JCT Center for Business
Ethics, Jerusalem College of Technology - Machon Lev; and Aish HaTorah.
You
can see the Jewish Ethicist, and submit your own questions, at
www.jewishethicist.com or at www.aish.com.







---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.600 / Virus Database: 381 - Release Date: 2/28/04






---
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"Paul Gold" wrote in message
om...
"ys" wrote in message .
Sorry. Our Torah says NO to mutilations.


Circumsicion seems like a notable exceptiion to the rule.


Circumcision is a covenant of the flesh between God and Abraham and all
Jewish males descending from him, revealing of what ~is~ which has been
covered.

Just FYI, you create more mutilation, destruction and death insinuating that
this blessed ocassion is *mutilation* than all the circumcisions EVER done
since the beginning of time.

Put that in your pipe and smoke it, merry sunshine.

YS


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YS, I have to wonder why you are pushing your views to people in an obvious
cat newsgroup? Jews are not supposed to be pushing their religion on other
people. Spaying/neutering cats is a needed and necessary thing. I am all for
it and no matter what you say will not prevent me from doing the responsible
thing. I'd definately quit this nonsense already.

--
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www.members.cox.net/catprotector/panthertek

Cat Galaxy: All Cats, All The Time!
www.catgalaxymedia.com
"ys" wrote in message news:2wn4c.17267$%
Circumcision is a covenant of the flesh between God and Abraham and all
Jewish males descending from him, revealing of what ~is~ which has been
covered.

Just FYI, you create more mutilation, destruction and death insinuating
that
this blessed ocassion is *mutilation* than all the circumcisions EVER done
since the beginning of time.

Put that in your pipe and smoke it, merry sunshine.

YS


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cindys wrote in message
...

"Cat Protector" wrote in message
news:6la4c.1513$wg.305@okepread01...

I do not judge others myself. BTW, I myself am Jewish and when I adopted
my
cat Isis it was a requirement to have her spayed. I was all for it. I am
still for spaying/neutering. I do not see it as mutilation.

The torah is not open to individual interpretation, and the fact remains
that for a Jew to spay or neuter is a torah transgression. The mitzvos do
not apply to non-Jews, and therefore the torah would not find it
problematic
for a non-Jew to spay or neuter.

In other words, the equvalent of a "Shabbos goy"? (For those not familiar
with the term, a "Shabbos goy" was a Gentile employed by observant Jews to
mind the store or run the factory on the sabbath, when Jews are not
permitted to work.)

Peace,
Paul

ys wrote in message
link.net...

Circumsicion seems like a notable exceptiion to the rule.


Circumcision is a covenant of the flesh between God and Abraham and all
Jewish males descending from him, revealing of what ~is~ which has been
covered.

Just FYI, you create more mutilation, destruction and death insinuating
that
this blessed ocassion is *mutilation* than all the circumcisions EVER done
since the beginning of time.

Put that in your pipe and smoke it, merry sunshine.

Really? Who died?

Peace,
Paul

"Cat Protector" wrote in message
news:d_m4c.4658$wg.1583@okepread01...
I think the torah is very much open to individual interpretation.

You're entitled to your opinion, but traditional Jews don't see it that way.

Last time
I checked we're all apart of humanity. I don't believe in limits. Why
should
I be bound by the rules of the torah?

You're entitled to your opinion, but traditional Jews don't see it this way.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.





This is 2004. Not the days of Moses.