[Richard Webb[_3_]]

On Thu 2012-Oct-11 10:16, Scott Dorsey writes:
big snip
Don't they both measure the level of audio fed through them?

No, not really.

And why can they not be correlated/overlaid?

Because THEY ARE NOT MEASURING THE SAME ASPECTS OF THE SIGNAL. Why
can you not get this into your head?

This is discussed in the faq Chris. REad that section again after reading this thread.

As I said in another thread in response to your assertions
on production decisions, it's obvious you do not make your
living from audio but are a diletante. that's fine, many
hobbyists and diletantes do decent quality work. HOwever,
you keep trying to compare things that don't compare, as
they're not comparable. Yes, they are both metering, but
they measure different things. You're trying to add 2+2 and coming up with 5.
Read Scott's exlanation again, then go back to the section
of the faq on differences between digital and analogue audio recording, and the discussion of the metering therein
please.

Richard
--
| Remove .my.foot for email
| via Waldo's Place USA Fidonet-Internet Gateway Site
| Standard disclaimer: The views of this user are strictly his own.

[hank alrich]

wrote:

On Thursday, October 11, 2012 11:47:20 AM UTC-4, Luxey wrote: ????????,
11. ??????? 2012. 16.40.20 UTC+2, ?? ???????/??:
Now where on that modern meter should I peak to ensure that the new
commercial recording will play back at approximately the same volume as
did the old Empire jingle? Not below 12. Are there stupid
questions? Several times it was pointed to you, you can not judge
percieved loudness by peaks, unless you can corelate with type of program,
but you still did not memorize it, let alone understood. Nevertheless, my
answer - not below 12 - is correct. _______________

Please clarify - is that "not below 12" not below MINUS 12dB? Please be
specific here.

No question is "stupid" if it aids the learning process.

No student worthy of the name would be attempting to use this forum as
one's personal post-kindygarten audio education facility.

--
shut up and play your guitar * http://hankalrich.com/
http://www.youtube.com/walkinaymusic
http://www.sonicbids.com/HankandShaidri

[[email protected]]

On Thursday, October 11, 2012 4:25:05 PM UTC-4, hank alrich wrote:

No student worthy of the name would be attempting to use this forum as

one's personal post-kindygarten audio education facility.



--

shut up and play your guitar * http://hankalrich.com/

http://www.youtube.com/walkinaymusic
__________________________

From my 10:04AM EDT reply to John Williamson: "Unlike most of you, I do not just "get it" snapping my finger. SNIP my own.. However long it takes, I will "get it" - just not as quickly as you all might, given that you probably haven't been subjected to the same prenatal and post-natal physiological and psychological trauma that I have."

What part of "prenatal and post-natal trauma" do you need clarification on? Yes, I have "issues", but that does not justify callying me stupid names and accusing me of "not wanting" to learn.

[Scott Dorsey]

wrote:

Calling me names because I posed a theory of a cause behind the loudness wa=
r reveals one's own ignorance and intolerance towards those who are simply =
trying to learn.

No, people are calling you names because you repeated the same theory over
and over and over again after people have repeatedly explained to you why it
is wrong. It does not sink in.

And in a couple weeks you're going to come right back here with the same theory
all over again, just like you did the last two times.

This behaviour is technically called "trolling."
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[hank alrich]

wrote:

Yes, I have "issues", but that does not justify callying me stupid names
and accusing me of "not wanting" to learn.

It's not the issues that indicate your resistance to learning; it is
your failure to pay attention to Scott Dorsey's replies.

You are a troll. Adios.

--
shut up and play your guitar * http://hankalrich.com/
http://www.youtube.com/walkinaymusic
http://www.sonicbids.com/HankandShaidri

[[email protected]]

Guess it takes a pasty-white-trash CRACKER like you Hank to hurl racist epithets like "troll"!

just tossing it back at ya.

[Scott Dorsey]

wrote:
Guess it takes a pasty-white-trash CRACKER like you Hank to hurl racist epithets like "troll"!

Umm, no. Trolling is a specific Usenet behaviour. It is not a racial
epithet, it is an epithet aimed at those who falsely represent themselves
online in an attempt to provoke reaction.

Perhaps the best troll was the fellow during the late 1980s who claimed
to be the premier of the soviet union. It was sufficiently hilarious and
well-known that when the Soviets finally did connect up to Usenet their
first machine was called "kremvax" after the false name used by the troll.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[None]

trollercoaster wrote in message
...
I'm actually trying to learn something here,

No you're not.

trying to correct some admitted misconceptions I have about audio/voltage
metering.

It's obvious that you don't want to correct any misconception,
by the way you come back weeks later and crow about how
you were right all along, based on some youtube clip that
you're not smart enough to understand.



And my theory, while proven wrong, was worth entertaining:

No, it was not. It was dismissed immediately, and the reasons
were explained to you at great length by many people who
understand audio metering and the loudness wars. You
refused to be educated or corrected.,

Calling me names because I posed a theory

Nobody called you names for posing a theory. That claim is,
itself, a pathetic trolling attempt. Your endless trolling, refusing
to learn, is why you are very rightly called a troll and a ****ing
moron.

[None]

trollercoaster wrote in message
...
And yes I understand all the nuances of dynamics limiting and compression

That's utter bull****. You obviously understand very little about limiting
and
compression. The fact that you call it "dynamics limiting" is one
indication.
There's also your whole history of being an ignorant **** with you head so
far up your asshole that you can see the back of your tonsils, and when
people go to great lengths to try to teach you, you respond by continuing
to dump steaming piles of your trollercoaster ****.

(I have a remastered version of "Money For Nothing" peak normalized
at -10dBfs and it still sounds louder than my original version peak
normalized at 0dBfs)


That's supposed to show that you know all the nuances? Or is it
supposed to provide further evidence that you're a worthless ****
and a troll.

[david gourley[_2_]]

(hank alrich) said...news:1krt0e1.1ymooqva67cy6N%
:

wrote:

Yes, I have "issues", but that does not justify callying me stupid names
and accusing me of "not wanting" to learn.

It's not the issues that indicate your resistance to learning; it is
your failure to pay attention to Scott Dorsey's replies.

You are a troll. Adios.


He landed in my killfile the second week he showed up here.

david

[Ron Capik[_3_]]

On 10/11/2012 8:23 PM, david gourley wrote:
(hank alrich) said...news:1krt0e1.1ymooqva67cy6N%
:

wrote:

Yes, I have "issues", but that does not justify callying me stupid names
and accusing me of "not wanting" to learn.

It's not the issues that indicate your resistance to learning; it is
your failure to pay attention to Scott Dorsey's replies.

You are a troll. Adios.


He landed in my killfile the second week he showed up here.

david

Took me a bit longer. I have a 5 level process.
[Call them snooze factors: Tag == Z, Zz, Zzz, etc.]
Few people make it all the way down, some
even get to level 4 then work their way out.
[YMMV]
==
Later...
Ron Capik
--

[Ron Capik[_3_]]

On 10/11/2012 8:38 PM, Ron Capik wrote:
.....snip...

Took me a bit longer. I have a 5 level process.
[Call them snooze factors: Tag == Z, Zz, Zzz, etc.]
Few people make it all the way down, some
even get to level 4 then work their way out.
[YMMV]
==
Later...
Ron Capik
--
PS:
I have two other risk factors for a high Z number potential:
posting via Google Groups and a gmail e-address.
==
Later...
Ron Capik
--

[[email protected]]

Ron C what in Sam Hill are you babbling to no one in particular
about? "Zzz"?

Medication time. Meds time. Nurse Ratched is waiting behind the
big glass window!

[Richard Webb[_3_]]

On Thu 2012-Oct-11 16:41, Scott Dorsey writes:
No, people are calling you names because you repeated the same
theory over and over and over again after people have repeatedly
explained to you why it is wrong. It does not sink in.

Agreed. Again, to understand some of what is being
discussed re metering have a look at section 5.4 of the faq
for this newsgroup.

The loudeness wars are, and always have been a bean counter
driven decision. Bean counters and artists drive it. NOt
the engineers.

So, as I asked you on the 19th of last month, I'll ask it
again. Do you now, or have you ever worked in audio
production for pay? IF so then you'd have a better
understanding of what many of us here who have are telling
you.

We've all had to do things to the audio we massage for the
customers that we didn't think was advisable. HOwever, the
bean counters tell us what they want. It's then for us to
make it possible to get them what they want, even if that
degrades the product because we want to get paid. That
means further mangling with multiband compression, etc. to
get that average loudness closer to full scale. We may not
like it, we can argue until we're blue in the face, but at
the end of the day before the customer forks over the check
or the cash he wants his product to be as loud as, or louder apparently than the competition.

Some of us opt out by choosing our working niches to avoid
doing things we find distasteful. Sometimes those decisions mean we might not make as much dough as the other guy, but
at the end of the day we're happier professionally and
personally. Others grin and bear it, take the work knowing
that oftentimes at the end of the day they're not going to
enjoy what's required.

For an analogy consider the plastic surgeon who has a great
deal of distaste for plying his craft for vanity purposes.
HE really enjoys making that burn victim or the guy
disfigured after the bad accident feel better but hates
doing the facelifts and otehr vanity procedures. YEt it's
the "vanity" clients that keep his staff paid and keep him
in business. I detest autotune and making "cut and paste"
performances for people who can't perform. By choosing not
to work with such clients I limit myself, but at the end of
the day I'm happier with waht I do, although that means
there is a very limited market for what I choose to do.

We're not saying technology hasn't changed the loudness
battleground, but we are saying you're attributing it to the wrong causes. It's not, and never has been an engineering
decision, it's a marketing decision, and always has been.

And in a couple weeks you're going to come right back here with the
same theory all over again, just like you did the last two times.

Again agreed, and after awhile it gets tiresome. Some of us are here to actually improve our craft, because improving
our craft means we can provide better service to our
customers. We don't have time to play kindergarten all over again with you.

This behaviour is technically called "trolling."

Again agreed. Maybe you're not intending it as such, but
the result is the same.

The only way this is an engineering decision is the question of how you get the paying customer what he thinks he wants.
Digital audio and multiband compression has changed the game a little bit, but the causes are the same causes as they
were in the loudness wars of half a century ago as they are
for today's loudness war.


Richard
.... Remote audio in the southland: See www.gatasound.com
--
| Remove .my.foot for email
| via Waldo's Place USA Fidonet-Internet Gateway Site
| Standard disclaimer: The views of this user are strictly his own.

[[email protected]]

This has nothing to do with the loudness races, but does show the
meter scales compared relative to each other:

http://blog.braindub.com/wp-content/...comparison.jpg

Now who here wants to be the first bull-goose looney to step up
and proclaim that those guys are full of sh#+?

[None]

asshole trollercoaster crapped message
...
Ron C what in Sam Hill are you babbling to no one in particular
about? "Zzz"?

Actually, he's addressing anyone reading the newsgroup, just as
you are (whether you're too stupid to understand that doesn't matter).
He's also responding to a specific other poster, which is clearly
discernable to anyone familiar with Usenet. Unlike you, he didn't
feel the need to specifically address someone by name, because
he understands how Usenet and newsreaders work, and so do
people familiar with Usenet.

Only a moronic troll with granite between his ears would think
he's babbling to no one in particular. That moronic trollercoaster
with the igneous skull is you, **** head.

You could learn to understand if your head wasn't firmly embedded
in your colon. But since you won't pull your head out of your ass,
you will continue in your proud ignorance. It must really suck to
be as stupid and despised as you. But that's what you choose

[Luxey]

петак, 12. октобар 2012. 04.23.56 UTC+2, је напи�ао/ла:

http://blog.braindub.com/wp-content/...comparison.jpg

Now who here wants to be the first bull-goose looney to step up

and proclaim that those guys are full of sh#+?

this would be OK, provided all operating levels, off all pieces of equipment are matched.
Provided you're not a troll, ther's one point you may be missing.

It's common to think meters are measuring signal level. It's not wrong thing to say. However, information it provides is actually about headroom of equipment, or media, signal is passing through/ going to.
In the end, ther's always master volume knob, somewhere, so, whatever you read on meters, means nothing in regard to loudness. All you know is, if meters show this or that, one will be louder/ quieter than another, if that volume knob is fixed.
You see, in that picture, + 3VU is just below -12FS, and +6ppm is just over it.
I told you, didn't I. So now you know, drop it already and go away forever.

[[email protected]]

Luxey:

It sounds like you've got a good head on your shoulders. Are you from eastern Europe by the way?

As for all the troll accusations against me, don't let the ignorant Americans on this board influence you. Sure, they do know their stuff when it comes to audio engineering, but boy do they fall FLAT on their FACES when it comes to tolerance of ideas that do not fit a preconceived mold.

It's like a club here. You don't walk a certain way, talk the talk, you're OUT. As for helping someone who is having trouble learning concepts, they have no clue. You either know your stuff or you're a troll - or an asshole, or whatever. That's Americans for you, they love to sling stuff, whether it's bombs or names.

Peace, brother.

[Scott Dorsey]

In article ,
wrote:
This has nothing to do with the loudness races, but does show the
meter scales compared relative to each other:

http://blog.braindub.com/wp-content/...comparison.jpg

See, you did it again. You're clearly a troll.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[[email protected]]

On Friday, October 12, 2012 11:27:09 AM UTC-4, Scott Dorsey wrote:
In article :

This has nothing to do with the loudness races, but does show the

meter scales compared relative to each other:



http://blog.braindub.com/wp-content/...comparison.jpg



See, you did it again. You're clearly a troll.

--scott

____________________

You think I made up that website and that graphic? Fine. Go tell THEM they're nuts for putting all those meter scales on a common grid.

I clearly stated that I have shifted the topic from "loudness" to comparing meters. All I did was post a link to a webpage that explained the differences, graphically, between them.

If that make me a troll then I'd rather be that than what you are.

[hank alrich]

Scott Dorsey wrote:

In article ,
wrote:
This has nothing to do with the loudness races, but does show the
meter scales compared relative to each other:

http://blog.braindub.com/wp-content/...comparison.jpg

See, you did it again. You're clearly a troll.
--scott

The meaninglessness of his contributions escapes him.

--
shut up and play your guitar * http://hankalrich.com/
http://www.youtube.com/walkinaymusic
http://www.sonicbids.com/HankandShaidri

[Luxey]

Eastern Europe? You know it from my accent, just clicked on my Google profile, or searched RAP for my posts? For the sake of it, part of Europe I'm from is not what is usually named Eastern. Ther's quite a lot of European land towards East, from where I am, before you run out of it.

It's about 13 years now, since the first time I've visited this group. I kinda have an idea about who is who and what's going on. You're not the first one to speak about a club, clique, ..., name it. However, it's completely irrelevant to the essence of RAP. If nothing else, your above message was a troll.

Also, I know quite a lot about American bombs falling arround, but did not find anybody on this group too happy about it. Well, maybe one, but he's not really of this group, as far as I'm concerned.

[Luxey]

Speaking of Eastern Europe:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zY1MV...ayer_embedded#

[[email protected]]

On Friday, October 12, 2012 3:08:21 PM UTC-4, Luxey wrote:
Eastern Europe? You know it from my accent, just clicked on my Google profile, or searched RAP for my posts? For the sake of it, part of Europe I'm from is not what is usually named Eastern. Ther's quite a lot of European land towards East, from where I am, before you run out of it.



It's about 13 years now, since the first time I've visited this group. I kinda have an idea about who is who and what's going on. You're not the first one to speak about a club, clique, ..., name it. However, it's completely irrelevant to the essence of RAP. If nothing else, your above message was a troll.



Also, I know quite a lot about American bombs falling arround, but did not find anybody on this group too happy about it. Well, maybe one, but he's not really of this group, as far as I'm concerned.
__________________
This is how I picked eastern europe - Russia to be succinct: It's in your profile name at the top of all your posts! " четвртак, 11. октобар " Unless I'm wrong and that's Greek lettering I'm looking at.

[Scott Dorsey]

In article ,
Luxey wrote:
Speaking of Eastern Europe:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zY1MV...ayer_embedded#


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4aqM_wu6Ns

--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Ron Capik[_3_]]

On 10/12/2012 4:22 PM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
In article ,
Luxey wrote:
Speaking of Eastern Europe:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zY1MV...ayer_embedded#


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4aqM_wu6Ns

--scott

Dziękują bardzo. I cieszył się, że

W raju nie ma żadnego piwa, dlatego pijemy to tutaj!
==
Później...
Ron Capik
--

[Luxey]

Greek? May be. We call it Cyrillic, as oposed to Latin. If you'd look from Greece, you'd find me to the west. So, no, not Russia.

[None]

trollercoaster, aka thetrollmansucks wrote in message
...
On Friday, October 12, 2012 11:27:09 AM UTC-4, Scott Dorsey wrote:
See, you did it again. You're clearly a troll.
You think I made up that website and that graphic?

Who said that? What's the purpose of inventing that pathetic strawman?

Fine. Go tell THEM they're nuts

They're not trolling. You are, trollercoaster.

As usual, it's about your starvation for attention and your need
for people to tell you that you're right. Maybe if you bothered to
BE right it would help, but you don't give a **** about that. Why
don't you **** off, back to third grade and learn something about
audio before coming back.

Really, nobody here really gives a **** about your ignorance,
except that you keep shouting and kookdancing about it and
yelling "Look at me! I'm Trollercoaster! I'm an asshole! Pay
attention! I'm important!" If you never posted here again, nobody
would miss you. You add nothing.

Stop using this group as if it were your toilet and asswipe paper.
Go **** in someone else's sandbox, Trollercoaster.