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#41
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church miking a piano
Someplace early in the thread Nate mentioned that the keyboard player
originally stuck to the Hammond organ, and that he was an okay piano player but an excellent organist. There's your solution: switch him back to organ. Peace, Paul |
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#42
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church miking a piano
"Arny Krueger" wrote in message news  The usual situation in evangelical churches in the US, even large ones, is that pretty much everybody but the music director works for free. Even the wannabe soundman in your case which explains why standards are so low. Phildo |
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#43
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church miking a piano
"Arny Krueger" wrote in message ... So you've got a good one. The ones we're hearing about here have uncontrolled drummers who think they're playing stadium rock. Sounds like a good argument to find another church. Choosing churches based on the competence of the musos is considered by most to represent spiritual immaturity. Well it's a good thing they don't choose their church based on the sanity and ability of the soundman or yours would have no congregation at all Arnold. Phildo |
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#44
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church miking a piano
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#46
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church miking a piano
Paul Stamler wrote:
Someplace early in the thread Nate mentioned that the keyboard player originally stuck to the Hammond organ, and that he was an okay piano player but an excellent organist. There's your solution: switch him back to organ. I thought only Catholics played their organs in church. -- ha Iraq is Arabic for Vietnam |
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#47
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church miking a piano
On Wed, 7 Nov 2007 09:18:29 -0800, (hank alrich)
wrote: Paul Stamler wrote: Someplace early in the thread Nate mentioned that the keyboard player originally stuck to the Hammond organ, and that he was an okay piano player but an excellent organist. There's your solution: switch him back to organ. I thought only Catholics played their organs in church. No, that's just the priests; and they play with other people's (usually the choirboys'). d -- Pearce Consulting http://www.pearce.uk.com |
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#48
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church miking a piano
On Wed, 7 Nov 2007 06:52:23 -0500, "Arny Krueger"
wrote: Someone hasn't the chops to track or support real drums. Someone really doesn't get churches. You mean - it's about participating, not about being good? :-) |
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#49
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church miking a piano
"Arny Krueger" wrote in message . .. Someone hasn't the chops to track or support real drums. Someone really doesn't get churches. Or rather someone really doesn't get live sound (hint - he goes by the name of Arnie Krueger) That is exactly the kind of dysfunction that makes musos sometimes want to shoot the sound guy. Yup, violence or wishing for violence is the solution. You have a way of bringing that out in people Arnold. I'm surprised you haven't been shot yet. Phildo |
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#50
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church miking a piano
"Agent 86" wrote in message ... Arny Krueger wrote: Sometimes we use sophisticated hardware to overcome people's limitations. Take a drummer that is unable or unwilling to control his dynamics, give him a different tool with a volume control that someone else controls, and the show goes on! ROTFLMFAO. Why haven't they done something like that to overcome the limitations of their sound engineer then? Go to any gun shop and they can supply your church elders with the perfect solution for dealing with that particular problem of theirs. Phildo |
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#51
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church miking a piano
"Phildo" wrote in message
... "Agent 86" wrote in message ... Arny Krueger wrote: Sometimes we use sophisticated hardware to overcome people's limitations. Take a drummer that is unable or unwilling to control his dynamics, give him a different tool with a volume control that someone else controls, and the show goes on! ROTFLMFAO. Why haven't they done something like that to overcome the limitations of their sound engineer then? Go to any gun shop and they can supply your church elders with the perfect solution for dealing with that particular problem of theirs. Phildo PLONK |
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#52
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church miking a piano
On Nov 6, 5:13 am, "Arny Krueger" wrote:
"Nate Najar" wrote in message ups.com... gain staged properly and labelled off the snake and mic cords labeled and tidied up so there's no question what to do with what. This post is really long but I really appreciate the advice you guys can give. I have no experience here. my church has a very low budget and slowly acquires things it needs. there's no trained sound person and no one really knows how to operate the stuff. except me. I have to cover the trims on the board so people don't touch them, because they think it's the volume knob. Anyway, out of sheer desperation for something to finally sound halfway decent, I volunteered myself to redo a bit of the sound system to try to get it sounding cleaner. we have a 24 channel peavey board, 4 mackie 15" mains, and qsc power amps. The band is a keyboard/piano player, me on guitar and a drummer. The keyboard player used to play hammond organ exclusively but since they got the piano they prefer him playing that (too bad, he's a fine pianist but an excellent organist). So he's got a Yamaha motif that he plays left hand bass on (sets it on top of the piano) and a yamaha c3 grand piano. they like it loud. real loud. We have mostly really ****ty microphones and a few sm58s, and a few sennheiser decent handheld vocal mics. so I've got the choir singing into the sennheisers and the pastor has a nice new sennheiser wireless. I hid all the behringer and cheaper mics so they don't accidentally get used. They used to stick an sm58 inside the piano just resting on the soundboard. imagine all the problems! I didn't mic the drums, and the keyboard hits a di and goes to an eon powered monitor blaring up the keyboardist's ass and also to the foh. i've got a mic on my little fender amp. But I need to get the piano sounding decent and loud enough. The biggest problem here is that the main foh speakers are BEHIND the band. there's nothing i can do about it. absolutely nothing. I know how wrong it is, I don't know why they did it, but they did and there's no where else to put them. I tried micing the piano last week with a pair of josephson c42's and it sounded excellent but of course I couldn't get it loud enough without feedingback horrendous. the board has a single sweepable band and 2 shelved bands, but no bandwidth on the mid sweep so the eq isn't really sophisticated enough for any surgery. They always have the piano lid open- I'm going to rehearsal tonight and will screw around with it more- I'll try putting the lid on the short stick and see if that helps. You didn't say what kind of church service you are running. There are basically two sets of rules out there for church instrumental sound. One set relates to sound for with the congregation singing, and one relates to sound without the congregation singing. When there is congregational singing, the challenge is to get the rhythm and melody of the piano to cut through a very noisy environment dominated (hopefully) by hearty congregational singing, and still be heard by the congregation. When there is no congregational singing, the challenge is to get the rhythm and melody of the piano to cut through a less-noisy environment formed by the playing of the other instruments, and still be heard in balance with the other instruments by the congregation. I take it you have an acoustic drum. My sympathies. Replacing it ain't cheap but you aren't going to be in control of your destiny until you replace it with a digital drum. A lot of pianos that are used by churches are humungeously loud, which of course is obtained by some piano builders by sacrificing tone quality. Others are played by pianists who really beat on the keyboards, and again obtain loudness by sacrificing tone quality. The tradition is clear - in church it is traditionally fair play to sacrifice tone quality for loudness, so that the piano can do its basic job which is convey rhythm and melody. So, when someone talks about micing a church piano with high end microphones and microphone techniques that focus on tone quality and imaging, and then has problem getting the piano loud enough without feedback, I see conflicting priorities. The first priority for any musical instrument is to be heard. Only then does it make sense to talk about sound quality. I was thinking about trying a barcusberry- did a search here and didn't come up with much. terrible? or possibly my solution? what else do you suggest trying? thanks so much. First off, a hearty second to the other comments, particulary Scott's. If you want lots of acoustic gain, your basic tools are a directional mic and close-micing. Like you, I've got a situation where the piano is essentially in the sound field of the main cluster. I've tried lots of things, and found two things that worked good and better. Good is a mic on a short stand pointed at the bottom of the sounding board. The tone produced by the sounding board varies, so you pick a spot that gives you the tone you want. I thought I needed warmth, and by crawling around under the piano during a rehearsal, I found the tone I wanted just inside the leg at the far end. I used a MXL603 on a short stand, with the tip of the mic a few inches from the sounding board. Better is the PZM. I found that the best place was the approximate geographic center of the underside of the lid, which happens to be over some crossed cast reinforcements on the frame. I partially picked this place because I didn't trust the 2-sided tape I used to mount it. If the mic dropped, I figured hitting the cast iron was better than hitting the strings. I ended up using 3M's high strength industrial tape, which has held for years. The piano was sent out a few years back for a major rebuild. It went out with the mic in place, and it came back with the mic in place! ;-) The limit to acoustic gain of the piano mic whatever it is, is probably established by the fact that the sounding board of the piano is like almost all acoustic systems, a 2-way street. The sounding board radiates sound and it also picks up sound. As long as the piano is in a sound field, even a contact mic will pick up significant amounts of ambient noise. All you can do is improve the SNR of the desired sound. If you don't like the sound coming out of the piano mic, eq it. Parametrics are good, because you can use them to adjust tone, and notch out feedback at the same time.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - I went the way with digital drums, I was not the sound guy, but rather a respected individual that suggested they try digital drums. At first, most of the drummers took to them right away, there was not a lot of complaints because they knew what we were trying to do. The problem came when they decided that monitor levels on stage were too high, and they kept cutting them back and back and back. Pretty soon we might have all been playing pads and non amplified instruments on stage because all we could hear on stage was the bounce back off the back wall. THis was before inner ear monitors were really the rage. Ultimately it cost us every musician we had since no one wanted to play under those circumstances. It wasn't because we were divas, it was because we coud not worship with our instruments when we were on a constant 50 millisecond delay. Later they got inner ears, and yes, they are now back to using live drums, the electronic set sits in the rehearsal room gathering dust. |
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#53
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church miking a piano
"Hayvern" wrote in message
ups.com The problem came when they decided that monitor levels on stage were too high, and they kept cutting them back and back and back. It would seem that the worship leader was not one of the instrumentalists. Sounds like a violation of Matt 20:25-27. :-( Pretty soon we might have all been playing pads and non amplified instruments on stage because all we could hear on stage was the bounce back off the back wall. And the back wall was 25 feet or 50 milliseconds (round-trip) away. This is a good way to confound any performer or speaker. Ultimately it cost us every musician we had since no one wanted to play under those circumstances. It wasn't because we were divas, it was because we coud not worship with our instruments when we were on a constant 50 millisecond delay. In our church the corresponding number is about 220 milliseconds. Later they got inner ears, and yes, they are now back to using live drums, the electronic set sits in the rehearsal room gathering dust. The baby went out with the bathwater. Was there any sort of a management change that went along with this? |
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#54
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church miking a piano
"Arny Krueger" wrote in message... Sometimes we use sophisticated hardware to overcome people's limitations. Take a drummer that is unable or unwilling to control his dynamics, give him a different tool with a volume control that someone else controls, and the show goes on! "Sophisticated" is a real drummer. |
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#55
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church miking a piano
"Arny Krueger" wrote in message Same reason why everybody else works for free. No one in my church works for free, and it's a *very* small church. To the best of my knowledge, virtually everyone in all of the major churches in the Dallas area are paid performers or technicians. Sure... the little churches can get away with telling people that they're working for God, and that they will be repaid after the Rapture... but that doesn't work on thinking people. You want free? You get what you pay for. The least you can do is not ruin what little you're getting with crappy electronic drums because you're having a personal "issue" with miking or using dynamics devices on an acoustic kit. |
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#56
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church miking a piano
"Arny Krueger" wrote in message... Choosing churches based on the competence of the musos is considered by most to represent spiritual immaturity. Correct. The Pastor, the Board of Directors and the Advisory Council are all obviously ignorant of what it takes to make a pleasant service that is appealing enough to draw new congregants. Bible-thumping and begging for money to secure you a place in heaven doesn't do the trick any more in most churches.... people want peace and spiritual nourishment these days, not threats of hell and pernding armageddon. |
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#57
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church miking a piano
"Soundhaspriority" wrote in message... Choosing any church is a sign of human immaturity. Speak for yourself Bobby.... not all churches are the same. In many cases these days, they are solely for the purpose of compassionate and inspiring gatherings of friends. The Bible-thumping, fire and brimstone schools of fear and brainwashing are rapidly falling by the wayside in favor of clear thinking people who want simple, every-day insight toward a more conscious state of peace and awareness. Metaphysical churches are on a serious upswing. Most religious zealots and fundamentalists wouldn't even call these places churches, but their numbers are growing and their message is one of grace, not fear. By the way.... why did you feel it necessary to cross-post this to RAO ?? |
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#58
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church miking a piano
"Laurence Payne" NOSPAMlpayne1ATdsl.pipex.com wrote in message ... On Wed, 7 Nov 2007 06:52:23 -0500, "Arny Krueger" wrote: Someone hasn't the chops to track or support real drums. Someone really doesn't get churches. You mean - it's about participating, not about being good? :-) I think we have a cound tech issue here, not a "church" issue. |
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#59
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church miking a piano
"David Morgan (MAMS)" /Odm wrote in message news:isNYi.14513$Zz.5150@trnddc07... "Arny Krueger" wrote in message... Sometimes we use sophisticated hardware to overcome people's limitations. Take a drummer that is unable or unwilling to control his dynamics, give him a different tool with a volume control that someone else controls, and the show goes on! "Sophisticated" is a real drummer. Bloody typical of Arny. Doesn't know how to solve a problem, is incapable of asking anyone for help so wastes his church's money on expensive toys they really don't need. How he has lasted so long there I really don't know but in the land of the blind the one-eyed man is king. I do wish a real sound pro would start going to his church so he can fill the pastor in on exactly how much of their money Arny has wasted so he can have flash toys to play with. Phildo |
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#60
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church miking a piano
"David Morgan (MAMS)" /Odm wrote in message news KNYi.14518$Zz.11548@trnddc07..."Laurence Payne" NOSPAMlpayne1ATdsl.pipex.com wrote in message ... On Wed, 7 Nov 2007 06:52:23 -0500, "Arny Krueger" wrote: Someone hasn't the chops to track or support real drums. Someone really doesn't get churches. You mean - it's about participating, not about being good? :-) I think we have a cound tech issue here, not a "church" issue. Isn't that always the case with Mr Krueger. Come on, anyone who claims they can set channels gains better using their ears than with the meters is not to be taken seriously. Phildo |
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#61
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church miking a piano
"David Morgan (MAMS)" /Odm wrote in message
news:WwNYi.14514$Zz.14460@trnddc07... Same reason why everybody else works for free. No one in my church works for free, and it's a *very* small church. To the best of my knowledge, virtually everyone in all of the major churches in the Dallas area are paid performers or technicians. Sure... the little churches can get away with telling people that they're working for God, and that they will be repaid after the Rapture... but that doesn't work on thinking people. Different churches (and synagogues and other similar institutions) have different dynamics. In some, volunteer musicians are welcomed, not because the church is cheap or broke, but to keep the place participatory rather than professionalized. In such churches, the congregation is usually very mutually supportive, which sometimes makes for wonderful group dynamics and, um, less than stellar music from a technical point of view. As a musician, that's sometimes painful to me, but I can understand why it's happening. Other places, of course, work differently. Our synagogue's band is composed of professional-level musicians who volunteer their time as an act of kindness (we ain't got much money), but they remain pros. The rabbi is a former R&B singer (in Israel), and occasionally will mix a few James Brown flourishes with the Hebrew; he also plays a mean flamenco-style guitar. The bass player comes from a blues band; the mandolin guy is in a klezmer band, the drummer is a percussion student at my university and the tamboura player is an Eastern Orthodox priest who wandered in one day and had such a good time he decided to stay (and his music fits in perfectly). Fully pro, but unpaid. And still other places, of course, use professional musicians and pay them. Different strokes for different folks. Peace, Paul |
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#62
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church miking a piano
On Nov 5, 5:55 pm, Nate Najar wrote:
This post is really long but I really appreciate the advice you guys can give. I have no experience here. my church has a very low budget and slowly acquires things it needs. there's no trained sound person and no one really knows how to operate the stuff. except me. I have to cover the trims on the board so people don't touch them, because they think it's the volume knob. Anyway, out of sheer desperation for something to finally sound halfway decent, I volunteered myself to redo a bit of the sound system to try to get it sounding cleaner. we have a 24 channel peavey board, 4 mackie 15" mains, and qsc power amps. The band is a keyboard/piano player, me on guitar and a drummer. The keyboard player used to play hammond organ exclusively but since they got the piano they prefer him playing that (too bad, he's a fine pianist but an excellent organist). So he's got a Yamaha motif that he plays left hand bass on (sets it on top of the piano) and a yamaha c3 grand piano. they like it loud. real loud. We have mostly really ****ty microphones and a few sm58s, and a few sennheiser decent handheld vocal mics. so I've got the choir singing into the sennheisers and the pastor has a nice new sennheiser wireless. I hid all the behringer and cheaper mics so they don't accidentally get used. They used to stick an sm58 inside the piano just resting on the soundboard. imagine all the problems! I didn't mic the drums, and the keyboard hits a di and goes to an eon powered monitor blaring up the keyboardist's ass and also to the foh. i've got a mic on my little fender amp. So.... I've got everything gain staged properly and labelled off the snake and mic cords labeled and tidied up so there's no question what to do with what. But I need to get the piano sounding decent and loud enough. The biggest problem here is that the main foh speakers are BEHIND the band. there's nothing i can do about it. absolutely nothing. I know how wrong it is, I don't know why they did it, but they did and there's no where else to put them. I tried micing the piano last week with a pair of josephson c42's and it sounded excellent but of course I couldn't get it loud enough without feedingback horrendous. the board has a single sweepable band and 2 shelved bands, but no bandwidth on the mid sweep so the eq isn't really sophisticated enough for any surgery. They always have the piano lid open- I'm going to rehearsal tonight and will screw around with it more- I'll try putting the lid on the short stick and see if that helps. To me the ideal solution is to sell the piano and get another motif. use the extra money to buy some needed pa stuff (new mics, CABLES!, a new snake, etc...) and put the rest of the money away. But i don't think they're going to go for that. so if that's the case, how should i amplify this thing. the goal is gain before feedback. I was thinking about trying a barcusberry- did a search here and didn't come up with much. terrible? or possibly my solution? what else do you suggest trying? thanks so much. Nate Even if the PA wasn't behind the piano, you'd still need to put the thing on half stick most of the time, in my experience anyway. Two comments on mics for this situation. First, placement is critical. I have recently even used omnis on piano for live sound, 10 days ago for the Jazz Improv Magazine convention in NYC. Mine was a medium sized room for about 150 people and it was pretty damn loud really, more than a few of the artists prefered in fact. But no problem with the omni mics from feedback, they were inside the piano on DPA's magnetic mounts (DPA was a co- sponsor - so I mixed 21 bands live over 2 days with almost all omni mics! Would have been 27 bands too, but the SEE Factor guys gave me breaks and a couple bands didn't show up... But I digress. ) The magnetic mounts for the compact DPAs typically place the mics 3- 5 inches off the 2nd or 3rd and the lowest soundhole, about 1.5 - 2.5 inches off the piano frame facing the keyboard. The room had been eq'ed with SMART and I did have to roll off everything below about roughly 70 Hz. The DPA's were flatter than the measuring mic was, only 1,5 db down at 20 Hz. The air conditioning was ringing down there as it turned out. Second, often feedback reflects on how poor the off axis response is on a mic. Somehow in my experience, mics with better off axis response give me less trouble with feedback, are easier to tweak out. Perhaps this is why the DPA's. although they are omnis, work so well. Perhaps if you have a pair of good omni lavaliers, they actually might work if you mount them in really close. Or you might try getting the Josephson's in close as well, you can build a sling with gaffer's tape to get them down inside the piano. Also makes closing the lid easier, if it's absolutely neccessary. Similarly I had an 8 piece string section with a live DJ playing tracks on a live sound gig recently, and I had fantastic results from the DPA 4061 omni lavs, mounted under the strings with the instrument mount DPA makes for violins, violas, and cellos. It hangs under the strings facing the bridge, and when I put up the faders they JUST WORKED. Fabulous sound, amazing loud, really blew me away. Yep, a string section competitive for volume with a DJ, and in a big room like the Hammerstein Ballroom too.. I have used omnis in the studio and in Broadcast a lot of course, but until recently not really much for live sound. My conclusion after these experiences is, if the gig doesn't demand Arena level volume, omnis can work very very well. ( ... I have a board tape to prove it .... g ) And DPA's people are the nicest folks to have around... Will Miho NY TV/Audio Post/Music/Live Sound Guy "The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits |
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#63
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church miking a piano
On Fri, 09 Nov 2007 00:19:44 GMT, "David Morgan \(MAMS\)"
/Odm wrote: Choosing any church is a sign of human immaturity. Speak for yourself Bobby.... not all churches are the same. In many cases these days, they are solely for the purpose of compassionate and inspiring gatherings of friends. All very laudable, except that they hang it on a delusion. Does it matter? Maybe not. "Alternative" therapies can work, despite the actual procedure being bunkum. But when a delusion becomes so central to someone's life, when faith takes over from rational decision-making, you fear a little for what ELSE they may be persuaded to believe. |
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#64
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church miking a piano
"Phildo" wrote in message ... "David Morgan (MAMS)" /Odm wrote in message news:isNYi.14513$Zz.5150@trnddc07... "Arny Krueger" wrote in message... Sometimes we use sophisticated hardware to overcome people's limitations. Take a drummer that is unable or unwilling to control his dynamics, give him a different tool with a volume control that someone else controls, and the show goes on! "Sophisticated" is a real drummer. Bloody typical of Arny. Doesn't know how to solve a problem, is incapable of asking anyone for help so wastes his church's money on expensive toys they really don't need. How he has lasted so long there I really don't know but in the land of the blind the one-eyed man is king. I do wish a real sound pro would start going to his church so he can fill the pastor in on exactly how much of their money Arny has wasted so he can have flash toys to play with. I noticed that about three years ago in our discussions here.... but I wasn't going to falsh back on that issue. Digital consoles, multitrack recordings, re-mixing with automated presets with the excuse, "Can't do this kind of mixing 'live'... it would sound bad", etc., etc.. Maybe I'm just old-school, but my on-the-fly mixes are the live broadcast, the sanctuary FOH and social hall sound, and the full archive recording... simultaneously. Project over when the service ends. If I were to mention electronic drums to anyone in the band, I'd be fired... or to anyone on the councils, I'd be sent for psychological eval.. |
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#65
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church miking a piano
"Laurence Payne" NOSPAMlpayne1ATdsl.pipex.com wrote in message... All very laudable, except that they hang it on a delusion. So.... you have an 'issue' with metaphysics ?? |
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#66
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church miking a piano
"David Morgan (MAMS)" /Odm wrote in
message news:WwNYi.14514$Zz.14460@trnddc07 "Arny Krueger" wrote in message Same reason why everybody else works for free. No one in my church works for free, and it's a *very* small church. To the best of my knowledge, virtually everyone in all of the major churches in the Dallas area are paid performers or technicians. Trust me, that ain't how it is up north. And I'll bet there are a ton of performers and sound people working in churches for free in Dallas, just not in the circles you travel. Sure... the little churches can get away with telling people that they're working for God, and that they will be repaid after the Rapture... but that doesn't work on thinking people. Oh, you're talking about that kind thinking people and that kind of church. I get it. We have those up north, as well. You want free? You get what you pay for. There's a well-known regular here who seems to do folk festivals for free, on accasion providing both audio and musical talent. I personally think he probably does well. So, you're saying that since he does folk festivals for free, he has no talent for either audio or music? Very interesting. ;-) BTW in the end, religious music and folk festivals have a lot in common. They are both cultural events of a kind. They both feature people making music, etc. The least you can do is not ruin what little you're getting with crappy electronic drums because you're having a personal "issue" with miking or using dynamics devices on an acoustic kit. I would be the first to agree that it is good to avoid crappy electronic drums if you can. Get good ones. But pardon me while I focus on how the music sounds, not how it is made. ;-) |
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#67
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church miking a piano
"David Morgan (MAMS)" /Odm wrote in
message news:16XYi.25711$Rg1.10224@trnddc05 I noticed that about three years ago in our discussions here.... but I wasn't going to falsh back on that issue. Digital consoles, multitrack recordings, re-mixing with automated presets with the excuse, "Can't do this kind of mixing 'live'... it would sound bad", etc., etc.. Love it, especially the slam on digital consoles. ;-) Maybe I'm just old-school, but my on-the-fly mixes are the live broadcast, the sanctuary FOH and social hall sound, and the full archive recording... simultaneously. Do that all the time. Project over when the service ends. Maybe I'm a little more committed than you are, and don't habitually drop the ball when the service is over. If I were to mention electronic drums to anyone in the band, I'd be fired... or to anyone on the councils, I'd be sent for psychological eval.. That speaks to people's customs, practices and prejudices, not their technical expertise or commitment to the quality of the product. Sue me for working a little closer to the leading edge. |
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#68
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church miking a piano
Laurence Payne wrote:
On Fri, 09 Nov 2007 00:19:44 GMT, "David Morgan \(MAMS\)" /Odm wrote: Choosing any church is a sign of human immaturity. Speak for yourself Bobby.... not all churches are the same. In many cases these days, they are solely for the purpose of compassionate and inspiring gatherings of friends. All very laudable, except that they hang it on a delusion. Does it matter? Maybe not. "Alternative" therapies can work, despite the actual procedure being bunkum. But when a delusion becomes so central to someone's life, when faith takes over from rational decision-making, you fear a little for what ELSE they may be persuaded to believe. Ever see "Jesus Camp" ? Excellent documentary that raises the question you ask. It is interesting that some Christian leaders immediately attacked the movie as anti-church propaganda, but the people who were the actual subjects of the movie said they saw the final version and believed it to be an accurate portrait of their lives. |
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#69
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church miking a piano
Laurence Payne wrote:
On Wed, 7 Nov 2007 06:52:23 -0500, "Arny Krueger" wrote: Someone hasn't the chops to track or support real drums. Someone really doesn't get churches. You mean - it's about participating, not about being good? :-) Remember the woman who dropped a penny into the collection plate? She gave everything she had, which Jesus appeared to value highly, even though it didn't measure up very well against the lavish gifts from the well-to-do. It's quite possible that the music made by an honest amateur sounds sweeter to heaven than that lead solo by that session pro... I do think churches can sometimes lose sight of that. Of course, the lesson is not that we should all give only a penny... By the way, on the same day Pat Robertson endorsed Rudy, I read that Mike Huckabee actually cares about environmental issues. Lord have mercy! |
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church miking a piano
On Fri, 09 Nov 2007 09:26:36 -0500, Bill
wrote: It's quite possible that the music made by an honest amateur sounds sweeter to heaven than that lead solo by that session pro... I do think churches can sometimes lose sight of that. No, I actually had a revelation directly from God this morning. He said he has gone right off all that Gospel crap, and from now on he is only interested in Drum and Bass. He quite likes Lily Allen, though. Take heed. I mean, do you want to spend eternity with people who have spent their lives having fun? No of course not - you want to spend the next infinity of endless hours gazing up rapturously and saying things like "God, you are really, like, great, you know?". For ever, and ever, and ever, and ever, and ever - - - - . Anyway, that's what the bible says, so it must be true. I know which is my choice. d -- Pearce Consulting http://www.pearce.uk.com |
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church miking a piano
"David Morgan (MAMS)" /Odm wrote in message news:16XYi.25711$Rg1.10224@trnddc05... "Phildo" wrote in message ... "David Morgan (MAMS)" /Odm wrote in message news:isNYi.14513$Zz.5150@trnddc07... "Arny Krueger" wrote in message... Sometimes we use sophisticated hardware to overcome people's limitations. Take a drummer that is unable or unwilling to control his dynamics, give him a different tool with a volume control that someone else controls, and the show goes on! "Sophisticated" is a real drummer. Bloody typical of Arny. Doesn't know how to solve a problem, is incapable of asking anyone for help so wastes his church's money on expensive toys they really don't need. How he has lasted so long there I really don't know but in the land of the blind the one-eyed man is king. I do wish a real sound pro would start going to his church so he can fill the pastor in on exactly how much of their money Arny has wasted so he can have flash toys to play with. I noticed that about three years ago in our discussions here.... but I wasn't going to falsh back on that issue. Digital consoles, multitrack recordings, re-mixing with automated presets with the excuse, "Can't do this kind of mixing 'live'... it would sound bad", etc., etc.. All lines that will work on the powers-that-be at the church but then they don't know anything about live sound and mistakenly think Arny does. Maybe I'm just old-school, but my on-the-fly mixes are the live broadcast, the sanctuary FOH and social hall sound, and the full archive recording... simultaneously. Project over when the service ends. If I were to mention electronic drums to anyone in the band, I'd be fired... or to anyone on the councils, I'd be sent for psychological eval.. Arny gets away with murder there, spending their money on flash toys to cover up the fact he doesn't know what he is doing. Phildo |
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church miking a piano
"Laurence Payne" NOSPAMlpayne1ATdsl.pipex.com wrote in message ... On Fri, 09 Nov 2007 00:19:44 GMT, "David Morgan \(MAMS\)" /Odm wrote: Choosing any church is a sign of human immaturity. Speak for yourself Bobby.... not all churches are the same. In many cases these days, they are solely for the purpose of compassionate and inspiring gatherings of friends. All very laudable, except that they hang it on a delusion. Does it matter? Maybe not. "Alternative" therapies can work, despite the actual procedure being bunkum. But when a delusion becomes so central to someone's life, when faith takes over from rational decision-making, you fear a little for what ELSE they may be persuaded to believe. Why base it on the life of a political activist 200 years ago whose name was hijacked by the Romans to create a new religion? Why not base it on the tooth fairy, Easter bunny or Britney Spears for that matter? All just as credible and at least Britney exists. Phildo |
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church miking a piano
"Arny Krueger" wrote in message . .. "David Morgan (MAMS)" /Odm wrote in message news:16XYi.25711$Rg1.10224@trnddc05 I noticed that about three years ago in our discussions here.... but I wasn't going to falsh back on that issue. Digital consoles, multitrack recordings, re-mixing with automated presets with the excuse, "Can't do this kind of mixing 'live'... it would sound bad", etc., etc.. Love it, especially the slam on digital consoles. ;-) All well and good but you have to know how to use these toys in the first place. Setting channel gains by ear, using a CD to ring out your monitors and multitrack recording of feedback then analysing it with a computer in the hope of fixing it the following week are not the sort of practices carried out by someone who knows what they are doing Arold. Maybe I'm just old-school, but my on-the-fly mixes are the live broadcast, the sanctuary FOH and social hall sound, and the full archive recording... simultaneously. Do that all the time. Yeah, on flash toys waaaaaay overspecced for what you need that you have wasted your church's money on. Project over when the service ends. Maybe I'm a little more committed than you are, and don't habitually drop the ball when the service is over. Anold, you drop the ball on a regular basis. How about your trying to tell everyone that 95% of consoles do not have PFL on them? Or maybe even your most recent gaffe where you found that somehow your name ehad been removed from the ban list at PSW so tried to claim you were never even banned from there when everybody on aapls saw it happen? If I were to mention electronic drums to anyone in the band, I'd be fired... or to anyone on the councils, I'd be sent for psychological eval.. That speaks to people's customs, practices and prejudices, not their technical expertise or commitment to the quality of the product. Sue me for working a little closer to the leading edge. You don't work closer to the leading edge, you con your church in to buying flash toys for you to make up for the fact you do not have a clue what you are doing. Phildo |
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church miking a piano
"Don Pearce" wrote in message ... On Fri, 09 Nov 2007 09:26:36 -0500, Bill wrote: It's quite possible that the music made by an honest amateur sounds sweeter to heaven than that lead solo by that session pro... I do think churches can sometimes lose sight of that. No, I actually had a revelation directly from God this morning. He said he has gone right off all that Gospel crap, and from now on he is only interested in Drum and Bass. Could I possibly get the number of your dealer? Must be good stuff you are smoking to be hearing thee voice of god. Amazing how today if someone claims to hear the voice of god speaking to him directly they get all sorts of nice pharmacuticals, a padded room, one of those nice straitjackets and possibly some ECT whereas in times gone by people would start a religion around them. What enlightened times we live in. He quite likes Lily Allen, though. Too bloody right. Very witty lyrics and quite a fresh sound. One of the best new artists to have come through recently IMO. Take heed. I mean, do you want to spend eternity with people who have spent their lives having fun? No of course not - you want to spend the next infinity of endless hours gazing up rapturously and saying things like "God, you are really, like, great, you know?". For ever, and ever, and ever, and ever, and ever - - - - . Anyway, that's what the bible says, so it must be true. I know which is my choice. Have you ever heard the song "No Laughing In Heaven" by Gillian? If you haven't then check it out. Phildo |
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church miking a piano
"Arny Krueger" wrote in message . .. "David Morgan (MAMS)" /Odm wrote in message news:WwNYi.14514$Zz.14460@trnddc07 "Arny Krueger" wrote in message Same reason why everybody else works for free. No one in my church works for free, and it's a *very* small church. To the best of my knowledge, virtually everyone in all of the major churches in the Dallas area are paid performers or technicians. Trust me, that ain't how it is up north. And I'll bet there are a ton of performers and sound people working in churches for free in Dallas, just not in the circles you travel. You're quite right about this Arny. |
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church miking a piano
"Arny Krueger" wrote in message . .. "David Morgan (MAMS)" /Odm wrote in message news:16XYi.25711$Rg1.10224@trnddc05 I noticed that about three years ago in our discussions here.... but I wasn't going to falsh back on that issue. Digital consoles, multitrack recordings, re-mixing with automated presets with the excuse, "Can't do this kind of mixing 'live'... it would sound bad", etc., etc.. Love it, especially the slam on digital consoles. ;-) Are you saying you remember our lengthy 'engagement' of words when you first started working for the church? Arny... I respect your technical aspects... for 8 or 10 years I have referred to your experience on sound cards and referred all card questions I couldn't deal with to you or your site... but I've never really thought you had much of a grasp on the music itself or the reproduction / recording thereof. You made it blatantly obvious when (once you started to work for the church) you began suddenly having 'opinions' about certain aspects of recording and live sound. Since that's been a while, I give you full credit for all that you should have learned by now while getting your hands dirty by actually doing the deed. But please... do be careful when you spout off about things like this. Electronic drums are NOT going to help the OPs feedback and piano problems. DM |
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church miking a piano
"Phildo" wrote in message All lines that will work on the powers-that-be at the church but then they don't know anything about live sound and mistakenly think Arny does. At least Arny has an awareness of the task and some level of intelligence, probably greater than 80% of his church, and a little audio knowledge. In the eyes of his church, he is probably the greatest thing since sliced bread. Since I've already dealt with this, several years ago now.... I can let that be. After all... they're apparently all working for Jesus there, while the minister counts and spends Jesus' money. ;-) |
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church miking a piano
"Bill" wrote in message... By the way, on the same day Pat Robertson endorsed Rudy, I read that Mike Huckabee actually cares about environmental issues. Lord have mercy! If you're leaning republican, please consider Ron Paul. If your leaning democrat, PLEASE help the effort to DRAFT Al Gore. |
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church miking a piano
Arny Krueger wrote:
Maybe I'm a little more committed than you are, and don't habitually drop the ball when the service is over. Maybe your act isn't ogether enough to have the job done by the time the show is over. I've heard David's live recordings released by artists as commercial CD's - the live show mixed along with FOH and monitors plus simultaneous stereo to a DAT recorder, and sounding damn good. The quality of his work is such that he doesn't have to worry about dropping the ball or other bull**** excuses; he gets the job done in the alloted time and goes home. If you wish to use the term "dropping the ball" as a reason you can't get the job done within the realtime of the gig, fine. But that does not apply to David's work, his audio skill set, or the quality of his finished mixes. He manages this on kit that all together cost less than your church's Yammie whizbang digital console. -- ha Iraq is Arabic for Vietnam |
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church miking a piano
David Morgan (MAMS) /Odm wrote:
"Soundhaspriority" wrote in message... Choosing any church is a sign of human immaturity. Speak for yourself Bobby.... You are replying to Brian McCarty posting from X-Complaints-To: Another forgery, but man, does this **** get old or what? BTW lovely take on religion in Thom Hartmann's _The Last Hours of Ancient Sunlight_. Metaphysical, indeed. -- ha Iraq is Arabic for Vietnam |
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