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#81
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Is dBfs metering scale partly to blame for loudness war?
On Thu 2012-Oct-11 10:16, Scott Dorsey writes: big snip Don't they both measure the level of audio fed through them? No, not really. And why can they not be correlated/overlaid? Because THEY ARE NOT MEASURING THE SAME ASPECTS OF THE SIGNAL. Why can you not get this into your head? This is discussed in the faq Chris. REad that section again after reading this thread. As I said in another thread in response to your assertions on production decisions, it's obvious you do not make your living from audio but are a diletante. that's fine, many hobbyists and diletantes do decent quality work. HOwever, you keep trying to compare things that don't compare, as they're not comparable. Yes, they are both metering, but they measure different things. You're trying to add 2+2 and coming up with 5. Read Scott's exlanation again, then go back to the section of the faq on differences between digital and analogue audio recording, and the discussion of the metering therein please. Richard -- | Remove .my.foot for email | via Waldo's Place USA Fidonet-Internet Gateway Site | Standard disclaimer: The views of this user are strictly his own. |
#82
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Is dBfs metering scale partly to blame for loudness war?
wrote:
On Thursday, October 11, 2012 11:47:20 AM UTC-4, Luxey wrote: ????????, 11. ??????? 2012. 16.40.20 UTC+2, ?? ???????/??: Now where on that modern meter should I peak to ensure that the new commercial recording will play back at approximately the same volume as did the old Empire jingle? Not below 12. Are there stupid questions? Several times it was pointed to you, you can not judge percieved loudness by peaks, unless you can corelate with type of program, but you still did not memorize it, let alone understood. Nevertheless, my answer - not below 12 - is correct. _______________ Please clarify - is that "not below 12" not below MINUS 12dB? Please be specific here. No question is "stupid" if it aids the learning process. No student worthy of the name would be attempting to use this forum as one's personal post-kindygarten audio education facility. -- shut up and play your guitar * http://hankalrich.com/ http://www.youtube.com/walkinaymusic http://www.sonicbids.com/HankandShaidri |
#83
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Is dBfs metering scale partly to blame for loudness war?
On Thursday, October 11, 2012 4:25:05 PM UTC-4, hank alrich wrote:
No student worthy of the name would be attempting to use this forum as one's personal post-kindygarten audio education facility. -- shut up and play your guitar * http://hankalrich.com/ http://www.youtube.com/walkinaymusic __________________________ From my 10:04AM EDT reply to John Williamson: "Unlike most of you, I do not just "get it" snapping my finger. SNIP my own.. However long it takes, I will "get it" - just not as quickly as you all might, given that you probably haven't been subjected to the same prenatal and post-natal physiological and psychological trauma that I have." What part of "prenatal and post-natal trauma" do you need clarification on? Yes, I have "issues", but that does not justify callying me stupid names and accusing me of "not wanting" to learn. |
#84
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Is dBfs metering scale partly to blame for loudness war?
wrote:
Calling me names because I posed a theory of a cause behind the loudness wa= r reveals one's own ignorance and intolerance towards those who are simply = trying to learn. No, people are calling you names because you repeated the same theory over and over and over again after people have repeatedly explained to you why it is wrong. It does not sink in. And in a couple weeks you're going to come right back here with the same theory all over again, just like you did the last two times. This behaviour is technically called "trolling." --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#85
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Is dBfs metering scale partly to blame for loudness war?
wrote:
Yes, I have "issues", but that does not justify callying me stupid names and accusing me of "not wanting" to learn. It's not the issues that indicate your resistance to learning; it is your failure to pay attention to Scott Dorsey's replies. You are a troll. Adios. -- shut up and play your guitar * http://hankalrich.com/ http://www.youtube.com/walkinaymusic http://www.sonicbids.com/HankandShaidri |
#86
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Is dBfs metering scale partly to blame for loudness war?
Guess it takes a pasty-white-trash CRACKER like you Hank to hurl racist epithets like "troll"!
just tossing it back at ya. |
#87
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Is dBfs metering scale partly to blame for loudness war?
wrote:
Guess it takes a pasty-white-trash CRACKER like you Hank to hurl racist epithets like "troll"! Umm, no. Trolling is a specific Usenet behaviour. It is not a racial epithet, it is an epithet aimed at those who falsely represent themselves online in an attempt to provoke reaction. Perhaps the best troll was the fellow during the late 1980s who claimed to be the premier of the soviet union. It was sufficiently hilarious and well-known that when the Soviets finally did connect up to Usenet their first machine was called "kremvax" after the false name used by the troll. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#88
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Is dBfs metering scale partly to blame for loudness war?
trollercoaster wrote in message
... I'm actually trying to learn something here, No you're not. trying to correct some admitted misconceptions I have about audio/voltage metering. It's obvious that you don't want to correct any misconception, by the way you come back weeks later and crow about how you were right all along, based on some youtube clip that you're not smart enough to understand. And my theory, while proven wrong, was worth entertaining: No, it was not. It was dismissed immediately, and the reasons were explained to you at great length by many people who understand audio metering and the loudness wars. You refused to be educated or corrected., Calling me names because I posed a theory Nobody called you names for posing a theory. That claim is, itself, a pathetic trolling attempt. Your endless trolling, refusing to learn, is why you are very rightly called a troll and a ****ing moron. |
#89
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Is dBfs metering scale partly to blame for loudness war?
trollercoaster wrote in message
... And yes I understand all the nuances of dynamics limiting and compression That's utter bull****. You obviously understand very little about limiting and compression. The fact that you call it "dynamics limiting" is one indication. There's also your whole history of being an ignorant **** with you head so far up your asshole that you can see the back of your tonsils, and when people go to great lengths to try to teach you, you respond by continuing to dump steaming piles of your trollercoaster ****. (I have a remastered version of "Money For Nothing" peak normalized at -10dBfs and it still sounds louder than my original version peak normalized at 0dBfs) That's supposed to show that you know all the nuances? Or is it supposed to provide further evidence that you're a worthless **** and a troll. |
#90
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Is dBfs metering scale partly to blame for loudness war?
(hank alrich) said...news:1krt0e1.1ymooqva67cy6N%
: wrote: Yes, I have "issues", but that does not justify callying me stupid names and accusing me of "not wanting" to learn. It's not the issues that indicate your resistance to learning; it is your failure to pay attention to Scott Dorsey's replies. You are a troll. Adios. He landed in my killfile the second week he showed up here. david |
#91
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Is dBfs metering scale partly to blame for loudness war?
On 10/11/2012 8:23 PM, david gourley wrote:
(hank alrich) said...news:1krt0e1.1ymooqva67cy6N% : wrote: Yes, I have "issues", but that does not justify callying me stupid names and accusing me of "not wanting" to learn. It's not the issues that indicate your resistance to learning; it is your failure to pay attention to Scott Dorsey's replies. You are a troll. Adios. He landed in my killfile the second week he showed up here. david Took me a bit longer. I have a 5 level process. [Call them snooze factors: Tag == Z, Zz, Zzz, etc.] Few people make it all the way down, some even get to level 4 then work their way out. [YMMV] == Later... Ron Capik -- |
#92
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Is dBfs metering scale partly to blame for loudness war?
On 10/11/2012 8:38 PM, Ron Capik wrote:
.....snip... Took me a bit longer. I have a 5 level process. [Call them snooze factors: Tag == Z, Zz, Zzz, etc.] Few people make it all the way down, some even get to level 4 then work their way out. [YMMV] == Later... Ron Capik -- PS: I have two other risk factors for a high Z number potential: posting via Google Groups and a gmail e-address. == Later... Ron Capik -- |
#93
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Is dBfs metering scale partly to blame for loudness war?
Ron C what in Sam Hill are you babbling to no one in particular
about? "Zzz"? Medication time. Meds time. Nurse Ratched is waiting behind the big glass window! |
#94
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Is dBfs metering scale partly to blame for loudness war?
On Thu 2012-Oct-11 16:41, Scott Dorsey writes: No, people are calling you names because you repeated the same theory over and over and over again after people have repeatedly explained to you why it is wrong. It does not sink in. Agreed. Again, to understand some of what is being discussed re metering have a look at section 5.4 of the faq for this newsgroup. The loudeness wars are, and always have been a bean counter driven decision. Bean counters and artists drive it. NOt the engineers. So, as I asked you on the 19th of last month, I'll ask it again. Do you now, or have you ever worked in audio production for pay? IF so then you'd have a better understanding of what many of us here who have are telling you. We've all had to do things to the audio we massage for the customers that we didn't think was advisable. HOwever, the bean counters tell us what they want. It's then for us to make it possible to get them what they want, even if that degrades the product because we want to get paid. That means further mangling with multiband compression, etc. to get that average loudness closer to full scale. We may not like it, we can argue until we're blue in the face, but at the end of the day before the customer forks over the check or the cash he wants his product to be as loud as, or louder apparently than the competition. Some of us opt out by choosing our working niches to avoid doing things we find distasteful. Sometimes those decisions mean we might not make as much dough as the other guy, but at the end of the day we're happier professionally and personally. Others grin and bear it, take the work knowing that oftentimes at the end of the day they're not going to enjoy what's required. For an analogy consider the plastic surgeon who has a great deal of distaste for plying his craft for vanity purposes. HE really enjoys making that burn victim or the guy disfigured after the bad accident feel better but hates doing the facelifts and otehr vanity procedures. YEt it's the "vanity" clients that keep his staff paid and keep him in business. I detest autotune and making "cut and paste" performances for people who can't perform. By choosing not to work with such clients I limit myself, but at the end of the day I'm happier with waht I do, although that means there is a very limited market for what I choose to do. We're not saying technology hasn't changed the loudness battleground, but we are saying you're attributing it to the wrong causes. It's not, and never has been an engineering decision, it's a marketing decision, and always has been. And in a couple weeks you're going to come right back here with the same theory all over again, just like you did the last two times. Again agreed, and after awhile it gets tiresome. Some of us are here to actually improve our craft, because improving our craft means we can provide better service to our customers. We don't have time to play kindergarten all over again with you. This behaviour is technically called "trolling." Again agreed. Maybe you're not intending it as such, but the result is the same. The only way this is an engineering decision is the question of how you get the paying customer what he thinks he wants. Digital audio and multiband compression has changed the game a little bit, but the causes are the same causes as they were in the loudness wars of half a century ago as they are for today's loudness war. Richard .... Remote audio in the southland: See www.gatasound.com -- | Remove .my.foot for email | via Waldo's Place USA Fidonet-Internet Gateway Site | Standard disclaimer: The views of this user are strictly his own. |
#95
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Is dBfs metering scale partly to blame for loudness war?
This has nothing to do with the loudness races, but does show the
meter scales compared relative to each other: http://blog.braindub.com/wp-content/...comparison.jpg Now who here wants to be the first bull-goose looney to step up and proclaim that those guys are full of sh#+? |
#96
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Is dBfs metering scale partly to blame for loudness war?
asshole trollercoaster crapped message
... Ron C what in Sam Hill are you babbling to no one in particular about? "Zzz"? Actually, he's addressing anyone reading the newsgroup, just as you are (whether you're too stupid to understand that doesn't matter). He's also responding to a specific other poster, which is clearly discernable to anyone familiar with Usenet. Unlike you, he didn't feel the need to specifically address someone by name, because he understands how Usenet and newsreaders work, and so do people familiar with Usenet. Only a moronic troll with granite between his ears would think he's babbling to no one in particular. That moronic trollercoaster with the igneous skull is you, **** head. You could learn to understand if your head wasn't firmly embedded in your colon. But since you won't pull your head out of your ass, you will continue in your proud ignorance. It must really suck to be as stupid and despised as you. But that's what you choose |
#97
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Is dBfs metering scale partly to blame for loudness war?
петак, 12. октобар 2012. 04.23.56 UTC+2, је написао/ла:
http://blog.braindub.com/wp-content/...comparison.jpg Now who here wants to be the first bull-goose looney to step up and proclaim that those guys are full of sh#+? this would be OK, provided all operating levels, off all pieces of equipment are matched. Provided you're not a troll, ther's one point you may be missing. It's common to think meters are measuring signal level. It's not wrong thing to say. However, information it provides is actually about headroom of equipment, or media, signal is passing through/ going to. In the end, ther's always master volume knob, somewhere, so, whatever you read on meters, means nothing in regard to loudness. All you know is, if meters show this or that, one will be louder/ quieter than another, if that volume knob is fixed. You see, in that picture, + 3VU is just below -12FS, and +6ppm is just over it. I told you, didn't I. So now you know, drop it already and go away forever. |
#98
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Is dBfs metering scale partly to blame for loudness war?
Luxey:
It sounds like you've got a good head on your shoulders. Are you from eastern Europe by the way? As for all the troll accusations against me, don't let the ignorant Americans on this board influence you. Sure, they do know their stuff when it comes to audio engineering, but boy do they fall FLAT on their FACES when it comes to tolerance of ideas that do not fit a preconceived mold. It's like a club here. You don't walk a certain way, talk the talk, you're OUT. As for helping someone who is having trouble learning concepts, they have no clue. You either know your stuff or you're a troll - or an asshole, or whatever. That's Americans for you, they love to sling stuff, whether it's bombs or names. Peace, brother. |
#99
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Is dBfs metering scale partly to blame for loudness war?
In article ,
wrote: This has nothing to do with the loudness races, but does show the meter scales compared relative to each other: http://blog.braindub.com/wp-content/...comparison.jpg See, you did it again. You're clearly a troll. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#100
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Is dBfs metering scale partly to blame for loudness war?
On Friday, October 12, 2012 11:27:09 AM UTC-4, Scott Dorsey wrote:
In article : This has nothing to do with the loudness races, but does show the meter scales compared relative to each other: http://blog.braindub.com/wp-content/...comparison.jpg See, you did it again. You're clearly a troll. --scott ____________________ You think I made up that website and that graphic? Fine. Go tell THEM they're nuts for putting all those meter scales on a common grid. I clearly stated that I have shifted the topic from "loudness" to comparing meters. All I did was post a link to a webpage that explained the differences, graphically, between them. If that make me a troll then I'd rather be that than what you are. |
#101
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Is dBfs metering scale partly to blame for loudness war?
Scott Dorsey wrote:
In article , wrote: This has nothing to do with the loudness races, but does show the meter scales compared relative to each other: http://blog.braindub.com/wp-content/...comparison.jpg See, you did it again. You're clearly a troll. --scott The meaninglessness of his contributions escapes him. -- shut up and play your guitar * http://hankalrich.com/ http://www.youtube.com/walkinaymusic http://www.sonicbids.com/HankandShaidri |
#102
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Is dBfs metering scale partly to blame for loudness war?
Eastern Europe? You know it from my accent, just clicked on my Google profile, or searched RAP for my posts? For the sake of it, part of Europe I'm from is not what is usually named Eastern. Ther's quite a lot of European land towards East, from where I am, before you run out of it.
It's about 13 years now, since the first time I've visited this group. I kinda have an idea about who is who and what's going on. You're not the first one to speak about a club, clique, ..., name it. However, it's completely irrelevant to the essence of RAP. If nothing else, your above message was a troll. Also, I know quite a lot about American bombs falling arround, but did not find anybody on this group too happy about it. Well, maybe one, but he's not really of this group, as far as I'm concerned. |
#103
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Is dBfs metering scale partly to blame for loudness war?
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#104
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Is dBfs metering scale partly to blame for loudness war?
On Friday, October 12, 2012 3:08:21 PM UTC-4, Luxey wrote:
Eastern Europe? You know it from my accent, just clicked on my Google profile, or searched RAP for my posts? For the sake of it, part of Europe I'm from is not what is usually named Eastern. Ther's quite a lot of European land towards East, from where I am, before you run out of it. It's about 13 years now, since the first time I've visited this group. I kinda have an idea about who is who and what's going on. You're not the first one to speak about a club, clique, ..., name it. However, it's completely irrelevant to the essence of RAP. If nothing else, your above message was a troll. Also, I know quite a lot about American bombs falling arround, but did not find anybody on this group too happy about it. Well, maybe one, but he's not really of this group, as far as I'm concerned. __________________ This is how I picked eastern europe - Russia to be succinct: It's in your profile name at the top of all your posts! " четвртак, 11. октобар " Unless I'm wrong and that's Greek lettering I'm looking at. |
#105
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Is dBfs metering scale partly to blame for loudness war?
In article ,
Luxey wrote: Speaking of Eastern Europe: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zY1MV...ayer_embedded# http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4aqM_wu6Ns --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#106
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Is dBfs metering scale partly to blame for loudness war?
On 10/12/2012 4:22 PM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
In article , Luxey wrote: Speaking of Eastern Europe: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zY1MV...ayer_embedded# http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4aqM_wu6Ns --scott Dziękują bardzo. I cieszył się, że W raju nie ma żadnego piwa, dlatego pijemy to tutaj! == Później... Ron Capik -- |
#107
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Is dBfs metering scale partly to blame for loudness war?
Greek? May be. We call it Cyrillic, as oposed to Latin. If you'd look from Greece, you'd find me to the west. So, no, not Russia.
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#108
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Is dBfs metering scale partly to blame for loudness war?
trollercoaster, aka thetrollmansucks wrote in message
... On Friday, October 12, 2012 11:27:09 AM UTC-4, Scott Dorsey wrote: See, you did it again. You're clearly a troll. You think I made up that website and that graphic? Who said that? What's the purpose of inventing that pathetic strawman? Fine. Go tell THEM they're nuts They're not trolling. You are, trollercoaster. As usual, it's about your starvation for attention and your need for people to tell you that you're right. Maybe if you bothered to BE right it would help, but you don't give a **** about that. Why don't you **** off, back to third grade and learn something about audio before coming back. Really, nobody here really gives a **** about your ignorance, except that you keep shouting and kookdancing about it and yelling "Look at me! I'm Trollercoaster! I'm an asshole! Pay attention! I'm important!" If you never posted here again, nobody would miss you. You add nothing. Stop using this group as if it were your toilet and asswipe paper. Go **** in someone else's sandbox, Trollercoaster. |
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