[Patrick Turner]

Jon Yaeger wrote:

in article xhUai.3065$pd5.1325@trnddc02, west at wrote on
6/10/07 10:55 AM:


"Andre Jute" wrote in message
oups.com...

Jon Yaeger wrote:
semen
Oops! That should be "seamen." What was I thinking???

Would you mind not telling us about your work. We're trying to clean
up RAT. Thanks for your understanding. -- Andre Jute

I'm sure you must realize that you make the shifty peddler's day when you
condescend to answer him.

west



Pest,

My delight in receiving attention from Andre is only exceeded by the thrill
of seeing what stupid and lazy drivel you've posted on any given day . . . .

Such diplomacy Jon, really, tch tch, over the top.....

Patrick Turner.

[west[_4_]]

"Patrick Turner" wrote in message
...


west wrote:

"Patrick Turner" wrote in message
...


west wrote:

"Patrick Turner" wrote in message
...


west wrote:

There are several different types of noise to avoid and reduce,
if
we
can,
in designing tube circuits, from what I been studying. We can
discuss
these
different types of noises in general but for now I would like to
concentrate
on 1 type of noise, current noise, the kind that is generated in
a
plate
load resistor. I believe that this is especially important in
preamp
circuits.
Some tubies advocate that boutique components are all fluff and
a
waste
of
money and I think they have a point, to a degree. However, will
a
low
noise
resistor make a difference in reducing plate current noise? If
yes,
then
they can make a difference.
The question is ...can we quantify this difference and how? I
think
it
would
be cool to measure this noise and simultaneously hear what
difference a
low
noise boutique resistor can make. I may be off base with this
idea,
if
so
chalk it up to an inexperienced but eager to learn Rodent.
Thoughts?
Thanks.

Cordially,
west

If you study RDH4 about noise and resistance, you won't need to
ask
your
question here
because the book has the answers.

Or, the question you might ask if you had studied RDH4 might be
one
unanswered by RDH4,
and then its worth asking here, eh.

Are you asking what is the EXTRA noise a resistor generates when a
DC
or
AC flow exists?

Do you undertsand your own question?


Patrick Turner.

I think Phil A. answered your question already.

west

Neither you or Phil A have been informative on this subject.



Patrick Turner.

I can't speak for Phil, but you're correct about me. Isn't that why I
ask
the question? ... So, what's your point, Professor?

My dear learned friend, I humbly asked if *you* understood the question
you asked.

Its possible for someone perplexed mightily about some aspect of
electronic behaviours
to deposit a question to the supposed professors in this group, but not
quite know exactly
what they ask, or sufficiently define the matters troubling them, thus
rendering answers given about noise
be useless, including directions to Google, and or to books such as
RDH4.

Well trained experts can fall to this conundrum as can any newbie,
oldie,
or whatever.

As someone who has a medium understanding of noise in conductors, and in
vacuuum tube circuits,
is the the question you ask "apart from Johnson noise in resistors, what
is the noise caused by signal and dc
current flow in resistors?"

Allison swore at me over the issue, indicating that I didn't understand
your question,
and indicating I damn well should have, but of course as usual didn't
say what I should have understood.


Now just what was it that you asked?

Patrick Turner.

If you look at my OP, please notice that I said Plate Load
Current Noise. This is NOT Thermal or Johnson Noise. I think it can also be
referred to Triode Noise. Isn't this like Shot-Effect Noise, the noise
component of the plate current? I also think there is a mathematical
expression for it, perhaps Req (Requiv.). It is a voltage and I was
wondering if anyone actually measured it. If yes, then I believe that trying
different types of "boutique"(low noise) plate load resistors while plotting
the
voltage and comparing it to what you actually hear, should be very
informative and lots of fun.

west




west

[Eeyore]

west wrote:

If you look at my OP, please notice that I said Plate Load
Current Noise. This is NOT Thermal or Johnson Noise. I think it can also be
referred to Triode Noise. Isn't this like Shot-Effect Noise, the noise
component of the plate current?

No, no , no , no , no.

Your simpleton-like ideas carry no weight.

If you want low noise then thermionic devices are the very last place to be
looking.

Graham

[Peter Wieck]

On Jun 11, 1:28 am, "west" wrote:

west (and what is your real name?):

If you look at my OP, please notice that I said Plate Load
Current Noise. This is NOT Thermal or Johnson Noise. I think it can also be
referred to Triode Noise. Isn't this like Shot-Effect Noise, the noise
component of the plate current?

Per most of the Texts I have read, "Shot-Effect Noise" near-as-matters
does not exist under the conditions you describe. The other texts do
not refer to that term at all. One text refers to a specialized tube
designed just to make shot-effect noise as it could not be found in
normal vacuum tubes.

I also think there is a mathematical
expression for it, perhaps Req (Requiv.). It is a voltage and I was
wondering if anyone actually measured it. If yes, then I believe that trying
different types of "boutique"(low noise) plate load resistors while plotting
the

It has also been established that for the purposes of this particular
discussion, resistors after a basic level of quality is met do not
have 'noise' outside thermal noise. And that may be controlled by the
resistor rating.

voltage and comparing it to what you actually hear, should be very
informative and lots of fun.

I also believe that Patrick gave you a formula that demonstrates that
any such noise under these conditions is negligible and is subsumed by
the other-and-greater sources.

So, what it comes down to (for someone who does by his own words not
trust his ears) is how do you determine what is "information" and what
is "wishful thinking". In the privacy of your own bench, such
experiments as you describe will yield results... which will be
exactly what you expect them to be as you have defined the terms to
require such results. So, knock yourself out. Report back. Try to use
both accurate and precise terms whe you do so as you will not be
describing wine. But please do not expect others to join you in such
self-abuse.

Peter Wieck
Wyncote, PA

[Eeyore]

Peter Wieck wrote:

It has also been established that for the purposes of this particular
discussion, resistors after a basic level of quality is met do not
have 'noise' outside thermal noise.

What exactly do you think excess noise is then ? And why do carbon composition
resistors have lots of it, whereas metal film does not ?

Graham

[west[_4_]]

"Eeyore" wrote in message
...


Peter Wieck wrote:

It has also been established that for the purposes of this particular
discussion, resistors after a basic level of quality is met do not
have 'noise' outside thermal noise.

What exactly do you think excess noise is then ? And why do carbon
composition
resistors have lots of it, whereas metal film does not ?

Graham

Please do not waste your time on wiecked. His interests are not academic,
but to try and tear someone apart to raise his pathetic midget self up.
I don't understand "if you want noise..." I don't want noise. I want to
quantify a specific noise and see if I can lower it. Once I understand plate
load current noise, then I will probably post a different kind of noise
question for the same reasons. However, I think only AJ has come close to
describing this particular noise so far.

west

[west[_4_]]

Besides that, he uses the monikers I coined for him i.e. "pest." He is
simply ashamed for being caught at dishonesty. Must be very embarrassing.

unsigned for the usual reasons

"Patrick Turner" wrote in message
...


Jon Yaeger wrote:

in article xhUai.3065$pd5.1325@trnddc02, west at wrote on
6/10/07 10:55 AM:


"Andre Jute" wrote in message
oups.com...

Jon Yaeger wrote:
semen
Oops! That should be "seamen." What was I thinking??? I knew
coming out of the
closet was a mistake!

Would you mind not telling us about your work. We're trying to clean
up RAT. Thanks for your understanding. -- Andre Jute

I'm sure you must realize that you make the shifty peddler's day when
you
condescend to answer him.

west



Pest,

My delight in receiving attention from Andre is only exceeded by the
thrill
of seeing what stupid and lazy drivel you've posted on any given day . .
.. .

Such diplomacy Jon, really, tch tch, over the top.....

Patrick Turner.

[west[_4_]]

Besides that, he uses the monikers I coined for him i.e. "pest." He is
simply ashamed for being caught at dishonesty. Must be very embarrassing.

unsigned for the usual reasons

"Patrick Turner" wrote in message
...


Jon Yaeger wrote:

in article xhUai.3065$pd5.1325@trnddc02, west at wrote on
6/10/07 10:55 AM:


"Andre Jute" wrote in message
oups.com...

Jon Yaeger wrote:
semen
Oops! That should be "seamen." What was I thinking??? I knew
coming out of the closet was a mistake!

Would you mind not telling us about your work. We're trying to clean
up RAT. Thanks for your understanding. -- Andre Jute

I'm sure you must realize that you make the shifty peddler's day when
you
condescend to answer him.

west



Pest,

My delight in receiving attention from Andre is only exceeded by the
thrill
of seeing what stupid and lazy drivel you've posted on any given day . .
.. .

Such diplomacy Jon, really, tch tch, over the top.....

Patrick Turner.

[Jon Yaeger]

My delight in receiving attention from Andre is only exceeded by the
thrill of seeing what stupid and lazy drivel you've posted on any given day
.. . . .

Today's Scoreboard:

Andre 0

West 1


















in article vycbi.4985$3Q4.3828@trnddc05, west at wrote on
6/11/07 9:58 AM:


"Eeyore" wrote in message
...


Peter Wieck wrote:

It has also been established that for the purposes of this particular
discussion, resistors after a basic level of quality is met do not
have 'noise' outside thermal noise.

What exactly do you think excess noise is then ? And why do carbon
composition
resistors have lots of it, whereas metal film does not ?

Graham

Please do not waste your time on wiecked. His interests are not academic,
but to try and tear someone apart to raise his pathetic midget self up.
I don't understand "if you want noise..." I don't want noise. I want to
quantify a specific noise and see if I can lower it. Once I understand plate
load current noise, then I will probably post a different kind of noise
question for the same reasons. However, I think only AJ has come close to
describing this particular noise so far.

west

[Jon Yaeger]

My delight in receiving attention from Andre is only exceeded by the
thrill of seeing what stupid and lazy drivel you've posted on any given day
.. . . .

Today's Scoreboard:

Andre 0

West 2







in article pNcbi.4988$3Q4.1201@trnddc05, west at wrote on
6/11/07 10:14 AM:

Besides that, he uses the monikers I coined for him i.e. "pest." He is
simply ashamed for being caught at dishonesty. Must be very embarrassing.

unsigned for the usual reasons

"Patrick Turner" wrote in message
...


Jon Yaeger wrote:

in article xhUai.3065$pd5.1325@trnddc02, west at wrote on
6/10/07 10:55 AM:


"Andre Jute" wrote in message
oups.com...

Jon Yaeger wrote:
semen
Oops! That should be "seamen." What was I thinking??? I knew
coming out of the closet was a mistake!

Would you mind not telling us about your work. We're trying to clean
up RAT. Thanks for your understanding. -- Andre Jute

I'm sure you must realize that you make the shifty peddler's day when
you
condescend to answer him.

west



Pest,

My delight in receiving attention from Andre is only exceeded by the
thrill
of seeing what stupid and lazy drivel you've posted on any given day . .
. .


Such diplomacy Jon, really, tch tch, over the top.....

Patrick Turner.

[Jon Yaeger]

My delight in receiving attention from Andre is only exceeded by the
thrill of seeing what stupid and lazy drivel you've posted on any given day
.. . . .

Today's Scoreboard:

Andre 0

West 3







in article pNcbi.4987$3Q4.390@trnddc05, west at wrote on
6/11/07 10:14 AM:

Besides that, he uses the monikers I coined for him i.e. "pest." He is
simply ashamed for being caught at dishonesty. Must be very embarrassing.

unsigned for the usual reasons

"Patrick Turner" wrote in message
...


Jon Yaeger wrote:

in article xhUai.3065$pd5.1325@trnddc02, west at wrote on
6/10/07 10:55 AM:


"Andre Jute" wrote in message
oups.com...

Jon Yaeger wrote:
semen
Oops! That should be "seamen." What was I thinking??? I knew
coming out of the
closet was a mistake!

Would you mind not telling us about your work. We're trying to clean
up RAT. Thanks for your understanding. -- Andre Jute

I'm sure you must realize that you make the shifty peddler's day when
you
condescend to answer him.

west



Pest,

My delight in receiving attention from Andre is only exceeded by the
thrill
of seeing what stupid and lazy drivel you've posted on any given day . .
. .


Such diplomacy Jon, really, tch tch, over the top.....

Patrick Turner.

[Eeyore]

west wrote:

However, I think only AJ has come close to describing this particular noise
so far.

Oh dear, and you were doing so well up to that point.

Graham

[Patrick Turner]

snip what we have read....

Now just what was it that you asked?

Patrick Turner.

If you look at my OP, please notice that I said Plate Load
Current Noise. This is NOT Thermal or Johnson Noise.

But there is Johnson noise at the anode of a gain stage.
There is also shot noise of electrons being absorbed by the anode.
There is also the grid input noise.
Usually i have found the grid input noise dominates.
Its caused by the dc current flow.
With a signal flow, there could be a change of noise voltage at ther
anode and hence change in
current and the signal will produce IMD products with all the noise
content due to
non-linear behaviour.



I think it can also be
referred to Triode Noise.

Tube noise.
Its dealt with in RDH4

Isn't this like Shot-Effect Noise, the noise
component of the plate current?

It is.

I also think there is a mathematical
expression for it, perhaps Req (Requiv.). It is a voltage and I was
wondering if anyone actually measured it. If yes, then I believe that trying
different types of "boutique"(low noise) plate load resistors while plotting
the
voltage and comparing it to what you actually hear, should be very
informative and lots of fun.

I have measured the noise output of many signal triodes, and have
described the process
on numerous occasions when I have recommended ppl perform the testing
by amplifying the anode noise from a triode under test by about 1,000
times
to be able to measure it properly.

Without any DC current, anode noise is the Johnson noise of the anode R
in parallel with following load R.

When the tube is turned on you see a big noise increase due to tube
current.

Anode noise voltage = the noise in the equivalent input resistance for
the tube x the triode voltage gain.

Does that answer your curiosity?

Patrick Turner.

west



west

[Patrick Turner]

Eeyore wrote:

west wrote:

If you look at my OP, please notice that I said Plate Load
Current Noise. This is NOT Thermal or Johnson Noise. I think it can also be
referred to Triode Noise. Isn't this like Shot-Effect Noise, the noise
component of the plate current?

No, no , no , no , no.

Your simpleton-like ideas carry no weight.

If you want low noise then thermionic devices are the very last place to be
looking.

For low input noise, j-fets are king.
So to get decent SNR with tubes, use a high input signal
at least above 5mV.

Patrick Turner.



Graham

[Eeyore]

Patrick Turner wrote:

Eeyore wrote:

If you want low noise then thermionic devices are the very last place to be
looking.

For low input noise, j-fets are king.
So to get decent SNR with tubes, use a high input signal
at least above 5mV.

Use an input transformer maybe. That's routinely done for moving coil pickups and
microphones. There would be benefit for moving magnet too.

Graham

[Patrick Turner]

Eeyore wrote:

Patrick Turner wrote:

Eeyore wrote:

If you want low noise then thermionic devices are the very last place to be
looking.

For low input noise, j-fets are king.
So to get decent SNR with tubes, use a high input signal
at least above 5mV.

Use an input transformer maybe. That's routinely done for moving coil pickups and
microphones. There would be benefit for moving magnet too.

The word "maybe" saved you.

A Shure MM V15 with high 5mV output can be well mated to a 12AX7 input,
without a tranny,
and since the noise at the input due to the tube is say 2uV, SNR =
-68dB,
unweighted, and good enough for vinyl, because the track noise is
higher,
if not the venue noise where the music is recorded.

The Rout of the Shure is rather high though, and a tranny used to raise
Vo
isn't such a great idea.

And so for microphones, the mic Rout needs to be low to drive the
tranny.

But my Denon MC 103R has Vo = 0.37mV, and with the same 2uV at the tube,
SNR = -45dB,
a pretty awful figure, and the tube noise is clearly heard with gain
turned up
to equal what you'd get with the Shure.

But the Debon Rout is less than 20 ohms, and a 1:10 tranny can be used
without
loading down the cart output.
The tranny of 1:10 has ZR = 1:100, and a 47k sec load = 470 ohms at the
primary,
and easily driven by the 20 ohms of the MC without much signal loss, and
in fact the tranny could be 1:20
without worry.

20 ohms cart Rout at the sec of a step up tranny as 2,000 ohms, and
shunts the 47k termination
resistance thus reducing the noise of this R from 4.1uV down to about
0.9uV,
which is in series with the 2uV of the tube, making a total of 2.2uV of
noise.
( further N&D reductions at HF can be achieved with 0.1uF strapped
across the MC cart....)

I have a j-fet, a 2SK369 as the input device, and I never have to use my
nice blue boxed Varian
step up tranny.

4 paralleled 2SK369 can achieve a further noise reduction of 6dB if they
all are set up with 5mA each.

bjts or opamps also can be used, maybe.

Patrick Turner.



Graham

[Chris Hornbeck]

On Mon, 11 Jun 2007 05:28:55 GMT, "west" wrote:

If you look at my OP, please notice that I said Plate Load
Current Noise. This is NOT Thermal or Johnson Noise. I think it can also be
referred to Triode Noise. Isn't this like Shot-Effect Noise, the noise
component of the plate current? I also think there is a mathematical
expression for it, perhaps Req (Requiv.). It is a voltage and I was
wondering if anyone actually measured it. If yes, then I believe that trying
different types of "boutique"(low noise) plate load resistors while plotting
the
voltage and comparing it to what you actually hear, should be very
informative and lots of fun.

Huge amounts of misinformation abound on this topic. It's
impossible to put out all the fires, so please don't inject
any *more* Xxxxx Noise names. They don't contribute anything.
And don't believe *anything* you've read in this thread.
It's three quarters horse****, and the rest doesn't smell
too great.

However, if you really want to measure the excess noise
of a particular resistor at a particular DC current, that's
completely do-able if tested in isolation, ei: removed
from an ordinary circuit.

To do this you'll need a sensitive amplifier and a low-noise
source of DC current. The amplifier's equivalent input noise
needs to be appropriately lower than the resistor to be tested,
and the current source's noise needs to be low enough that
it doesn't read with a known "good" resistor. Choose a
metering that you believe appropriate and observe your
sensitive low-noise amplifier's output.

Compare noise readings with and without DC current. Viola.

All good fortune,

PS: This is called "excess noise". All other names are either
archaic, incorrect, or misunderstood. There are specific
special cases of excess noise with their own names but this
isn't one of 'em.

Chris Hornbeck

[[email protected]]

Chris:

Yours is fittingly the 100th post in the thread -- and now we're back
at what Patrick and I were telling West right at the beginning, and
Graham too for that matter: that there is thermal noise and all the
rest is excess noise (often called current noise).

If there had been goodwill and patience on RAT, we could have made a
list of all those names of noises offstage and inside amps and in our
heads, and correlated them with their formulae. But, frankly, even if
we did, I agree with you that it would have been an academic exercise,
of very little earthly use to West or anyone else.

Let's leave it there.

Andre Jute
Visit Jute on Amps at http://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/
"wonderfully well written and reasoned information
for the tube audio constructor"
John Broskie TubeCAD & GlassWare
"an unbelievably comprehensive web site
containing vital gems of wisdom"
Stuart Perry Hi-Fi News & Record Review


Chris Hornbeck wrote:
On Mon, 11 Jun 2007 05:28:55 GMT, "west" wrote:

If you look at my OP, please notice that I said Plate Load
Current Noise. This is NOT Thermal or Johnson Noise. I think it can also be
referred to Triode Noise. Isn't this like Shot-Effect Noise, the noise
component of the plate current? I also think there is a mathematical
expression for it, perhaps Req (Requiv.). It is a voltage and I was
wondering if anyone actually measured it. If yes, then I believe that trying
different types of "boutique"(low noise) plate load resistors while plotting
the
voltage and comparing it to what you actually hear, should be very
informative and lots of fun.

Huge amounts of misinformation abound on this topic. It's
impossible to put out all the fires, so please don't inject
any *more* Xxxxx Noise names. They don't contribute anything.
And don't believe *anything* you've read in this thread.
It's three quarters horse****, and the rest doesn't smell
too great.

However, if you really want to measure the excess noise
of a particular resistor at a particular DC current, that's
completely do-able if tested in isolation, ei: removed
from an ordinary circuit.

To do this you'll need a sensitive amplifier and a low-noise
source of DC current. The amplifier's equivalent input noise
needs to be appropriately lower than the resistor to be tested,
and the current source's noise needs to be low enough that
it doesn't read with a known "good" resistor. Choose a
metering that you believe appropriate and observe your
sensitive low-noise amplifier's output.

Compare noise readings with and without DC current. Viola.

All good fortune,

PS: This is called "excess noise". All other names are either
archaic, incorrect, or misunderstood. There are specific
special cases of excess noise with their own names but this
isn't one of 'em.

Chris Hornbeck

[Peter Wieck]

On Jun 12, 6:47 am, *** wrote:
***Andre Jute***

Revealing.

Sockpuppet exposed.

Andre, the damage from your strokes is making you forgetful of your
immediate alias. Will "no real name west" ultimately be discovered to
be yet another digit (Timmie) of yours?

Peter Wieck
Wyncote, PA

[Eeyore]

Peter Wieck wrote:

On Jun 12, 6:47 am, *** wrote:
***Andre Jute***

Revealing.

Sockpuppet exposed.

Not even a sockpuppet. Merely an alias. Same IP too.

Graham