Hi, all. I've been experiencing problems exporting wav's from my Sonar
projects.

After I do my sequencing, record all tracks as audio clips, add effects,
etc, when I export audio from Sonar into a single wav file I notice
significant loss in dynamics when playing this mixed-down file back in any
windows software (Media Player, WinAmp, Sound Forge, to name but a few). I'd
say about 10% of the overall dynamics is lost, which means significantly
more silent and virtually unusable music, with some noticeable hum.

I've tried a couple of tricks so far, to no success. The 24/16 bit switch
within Sonar proved useless, as did my tweaking around with latency and
various other 'audio' options in this sequencer. I also constantly check
master bus and stuff, no leak. I must point out I use only one soundcard
(Midiman Delta 410), the same drivers for all these various music players
and sequencers, and that I listen to the tune I have just made in Sonar on
the same pair of monitors when I switch to WinAmp or Media Player or Sound
Forge. Virtually, all the hardware and the equipment is the same, no volume
sliders or other sound card controls are even touched during my
experimentation, which makes me believe the loss occurs during the process
of exporting.

I've been told Sonar is a 'what you hear is what you get' sequencing/mixing
software? Any idea as to what's going on anyone? Somethnig I overlook,
compatibility issues, drivers, bad software... anything? On other systems
and in hardware CD players outside computers it also sounds much softer than
in the sequencer. But, it can't be a 'bad monitors' or 'bad mixing' problem,
since, I say again, it also occurs in the same system the music has been
made on (the one used by Sonar) virtually seconds after exporting, with all
parametres intact. Signal to noise ratio seems to have changed once the
audio clip has left Sonar.

My system: Intel PIV 2.4 G, 2*60 7200 hard disk, 512 M DDR, etc.

Thanx a million. Mihailo

--
* * * * *
Mihailo Antovic
teach.asst. Linguistics
Uni of Nis, Serbia
www.mihailoantovic.com
my music at: www.mp3.com/antovic

On Sun, 26 Oct 2003 08:40:05 +0100, "Mihailo Antovic"
wrote:

After I do my sequencing, record all tracks as audio clips, add effects,
etc, when I export audio from Sonar into a single wav file I notice
significant loss in dynamics when playing this mixed-down file back in any
windows software (Media Player, WinAmp, Sound Forge, to name but a few). I'd
say about 10% of the overall dynamics is lost, which means significantly
more silent and virtually unusable music, with some noticeable hum.


Are you sure it's a loss of dynamics or just a loss of apparent
volume when compared to other material? To verify that your mixes are
not accidentally running through a gain stage, or FX during the export
you can import the file and compare it to the stereo file you
exported. It should be identical. Chances are you need to do some
mastering. Which for modern music means compressing the crap out of
it til you have virtually no dynamics and raising it to the maximum
level or slightly higher.

I don't think I can help much here, except to say that we have virtually the
same systems and I have never experienced what you describe. Are you exporting
to a different bit rate than what you recorded at? Is there a loss of dynamics
or is the output level just reduced, with the dynamics intact? Interesting
problem. What version of Sonar? I'm using version 2.

From: "Mihailo Antovic"
Date: 10/26/2003 2:40 AM Eastern Standard Time
Message-id:

Hi, all. I've been experiencing problems exporting wav's from my Sonar
projects.

After I do my sequencing, record all tracks as audio clips, add effects,
etc, when I export audio from Sonar into a single wav file I notice
significant loss in dynamics when playing this mixed-down file back in any
windows software (Media Player, WinAmp, Sound Forge, to name but a few). I'd
say about 10% of the overall dynamics is lost, which means significantly
more silent and virtually unusable music, with some noticeable hum.

I've tried a couple of tricks so far, to no success. The 24/16 bit switch
within Sonar proved useless, as did my tweaking around with latency and
various other 'audio' options in this sequencer. I also constantly check
master bus and stuff, no leak. I must point out I use only one soundcard
(Midiman Delta 410), the same drivers for all these various music players
and sequencers, and that I listen to the tune I have just made in Sonar on
the same pair of monitors when I switch to WinAmp or Media Player or Sound
Forge. Virtually, all the hardware and the equipment is the same, no volume
sliders or other sound card controls are even touched during my
experimentation, which makes me believe the loss occurs during the process
of exporting.

I've been told Sonar is a 'what you hear is what you get' sequencing/mixing
software? Any idea as to what's going on anyone? Somethnig I overlook,
compatibility issues, drivers, bad software... anything? On other systems
and in hardware CD players outside computers it also sounds much softer than
in the sequencer. But, it can't be a 'bad monitors' or 'bad mixing' problem,
since, I say again, it also occurs in the same system the music has been
made on (the one used by Sonar) virtually seconds after exporting, with all
parametres intact. Signal to noise ratio seems to have changed once the
audio clip has left Sonar.

My system: Intel PIV 2.4 G, 2*60 7200 hard disk, 512 M DDR, etc.

Thanx a million. Mihailo

--
* * * * *
Mihailo Antovic
teach.asst. Linguistics
Uni of Nis, Serbia
www.mihailoantovic.com
my music at: www.mp3.com/antovic



-John Vice
www.summertimestudios.com

Yeah, I guess the term 'dynamics' is a bit tricky. The relative relations
within the tune remain intact, i.e. the violin to bassoon (or whatever)
ratio remains the same, but the entire tune is much softer in, say, Media
Player, than in Sonar. About 10% loss in gain, the same amount filled with
hum. No parametres, sliders, faders, knobs touched whatsoever (yup, I can
pump up the master volume in Windows, but why do I have to do this in other
software and add considerable hum, when it sounds just fine in Sonar?)

Some people suggest it's a mixing problem. Does that mean the signal I hear
after the mix in Sonar is not the real signal, and the decrease in volume
when I leave the sequencer is just normal? Mind you, it's all on the same
system. Sounds strange to me. That way I
would have to virtually distort the sound in Sonar to get a mezzoforte in
Win Amp or Media Player. And fortissimo in Media Player would that way be
impossible. I don't buy it.

Thanx, M.





"John" wrote in message
...
I don't think I can help much here, except to say that we have virtually
the
same systems and I have never experienced what you describe. Are you
exporting
to a different bit rate than what you recorded at? Is there a loss of
dynamics
or is the output level just reduced, with the dynamics intact?
Interesting
problem. What version of Sonar? I'm using version 2.

Some people suggest it's a mixing problem. Does that mean the signal I hear
after the mix in Sonar is not the real signal, and the decrease in volume
when I leave the sequencer is just normal? Mind you, it's all on the same
system. Sounds strange to me. That way I
would have to virtually distort the sound in Sonar to get a mezzoforte in
Win Amp or Media Player. And fortissimo in Media Player would that way be
impossible. I don't buy it.

Thanx, M.


that's a pickle. When I export from Sonar, it sounds the same when I play the
song in WinAmp or Media Player or Sound Forge. Has to be something going on
during the export process. If I can figure out what it is, I'll be sure to let
you know. Hopefully someone else on this group will have experienced the same
problems.


-John Vice
www.summertimestudios.com

Found it!

Must have been IRQs or something! I was desparate in the end and moved the
card to another PCI slot available, and... voilla! It now sounds the same as
in the sequencer. I also picked up the latest drivers from M-Audio, but I
doubt this was the decisive moment. Anyway, thanks for reading and for the
effort to help, guys! I nearly started to doubt my basic knowledge of how
digital audio works...

Best, Mihailo


"John" wrote in message
...


that's a pickle. When I export from Sonar, it sounds the same when I play
the
song in WinAmp or Media Player or Sound Forge. Has to be something going
on
during the export process. If I can figure out what it is, I'll be sure
to let
you know. Hopefully someone else on this group will have experienced the
same
problems.


-John Vice
www.summertimestudios.com

In article writes:

Yeah, I guess the term 'dynamics' is a bit tricky. The relative relations
within the tune remain intact, i.e. the violin to bassoon (or whatever)
ratio remains the same, but the entire tune is much softer in, say, Media
Player, than in Sonar. About 10% loss in gain, the same amount filled with
hum.

I can't explain the hum, but the volume difference is understandable.
Turn it up if it's not loud enough.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers - )

"Mike Rivers" wrote in message
news:znr1067206953k@trad...

In article writes:

Yeah, I guess the term 'dynamics' is a bit tricky. The relative
relations
within the tune remain intact, i.e. the violin to bassoon (or whatever)
ratio remains the same, but the entire tune is much softer in, say,
Media
Player, than in Sonar. About 10% loss in gain, the same amount filled
with
hum.


I'm not sure if I've got this entirely correct but I believe Soundforge,
Winamp, and Media Player all use the MME portion of the driver while Sonar
is capable of using the newer WDM (and if you're recording at low latency or
24-bit you're probably using WDM or ASIO). There is a 6dB volume difference
between the MME and WDM output levels due to an extra layer called the
Kmixer that is in the MME. (Again, I think all of this is right but I could
be wrong so somebody please correct me if I am). This would definitely cause
one to sound louder than the other.

I'm not sure if I've got this entirely correct but I believe Soundforge,
Winamp, and Media Player all use the MME portion of the driver while Sonar
is capable of using the newer WDM (and if you're recording at low latency or
24-bit you're probably using WDM or ASIO). There is a 6dB volume difference
between the MME and WDM output levels due to an extra layer called the
Kmixer that is in the MME. (Again, I think all of this is right but I could
be wrong so somebody please correct me if I am). This would definitely cause
one to sound louder than the other.


What he said. To prove it, simply convert an MP3 you didn't make on your own
into .Wav format and bring it into Sonar. Now listen to it in Sonar at the
same volume levels you had in Media Player or Winamp, then export that file
again. This should pretty much settle it.

"Mihailo Antovic" wrote in message
...
Found it!

Must have been IRQs or something! I was desparate in the end and moved the
card to another PCI slot available, and... voilla! It now sounds the same
as
in the sequencer. I also picked up the latest drivers from M-Audio, but I
doubt this was the decisive moment. Anyway, thanks for reading and for the
effort to help, guys! I nearly started to doubt my basic knowledge of how
digital audio works...


In light of that, I'd say it was purely physcogical. IRQs can have no
effect on a soundfile through different applications, unless your soundcard
is using a different (and broken !) driver for the different apps. But then
the IRQ is still not involved.


geoff

"Mihailo Antovic" wrote in message
...
Found it!

Must have been IRQs or something! I was desparate in the end and moved the
card to another PCI slot available, and... voilla! It now sounds the same
as
in the sequencer. I also picked up the latest drivers from M-Audio, but I
doubt this was the decisive moment. Anyway, thanks for reading and for the
effort to help, guys! I nearly started to doubt my basic knowledge of how
digital audio works...


In light of that, I'd say it was purely physcogical. IRQs can have no
effect on a soundfile through different applications, unless your soundcard
is using a different (and broken !) driver for the different apps. But then
the IRQ is still not involved.


geoff

On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 04:04:37 GMT, "Ricky W. Hunt"
wrote:

(Again, I think all of this is right but I could
be wrong so somebody please correct me if I am).

I think the actual difference is 5.5dB

Vladan
www.geocities.com/vla_dan_l
www.mp3.com/lesly , www.mp3.com/shook , www.mp3.com/lesly2
www.kunsttick.com/artists/vuskovic/indexdat.htm

On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 07:45:01 +1300, "Geoff Wood"
-nospam wrote:


"Mihailo Antovic" wrote in message
...
Found it!

Must have been IRQs or something! I was desparate in the end and moved the
card to another PCI slot available, and... voilla! It now sounds the same
as in the sequencer.

Unless the card is so poorly built it pick's up nois from inside your
PC, that's pure coincidence.

I also picked up the latest drivers from M-Audio, but I
doubt this was the decisive moment.

Most likely it was.

Maybe I get to listen to some of your music, one of these days. After
years of seeing your name on mp3.com, may be just the right time.

Vladan
www.geocities.com/vla_dan_l
www.mp3.com/lesly , www.mp3.com/shook , www.mp3.com/lesly2
www.kunsttick.com/artists/vuskovic/indexdat.htm

On Sun, 26 Oct 2003 19:57:26 +0100, "Mihailo Antovic"
wrote:

About 10% loss in gain, the same amount filled with
hum.

Do you actually hear that hum, or just think it should be there?

Some people suggest it's a mixing problem. Does that mean the signal I hear
after the mix in Sonar is not the real signal, and the decrease in volume
when I leave the sequencer is just normal? Mind you, it's all on the same
system. Sounds strange to me.

You are probaby using different drivers in different applications. See
Rick's post.

Vladan
www.geocities.com/vla_dan_l
www.mp3.com/lesly , www.mp3.com/shook , www.mp3.com/lesly2
www.kunsttick.com/artists/vuskovic/indexdat.htm